Why do people want Sonic Adventure 3?

[Milo]

.........I don't think the topic's question will ever be answered. I mean, this thing's already spanned 16 pages, what's gonna stop it now? Threadlocks and threadburies aside.....

[The Weeb with No Name]

I don't think there would be a problem if Sa3 took alternative playstyles and simply made them really enjoyable.

[Kuzu]

I don't think there would be a problem if Sa3 took alternative playstyles and simply made them really enjoyable.

ITs not that its not enjoyable, its that it doesn't fit, like someone said in a previous post, Sonic shouldn't have to juggle so many different playstyles in one game, he should stick to one and one that works.

[Sami]

no i mean between the release date of Sonic Adventure 2 and Sonic Colors. Even between Unleashed and Colors somebody at Sonic Team decided to fix whatever problems the predecessor had. Maybe I'm misreading your post? Or you misread mine. All I'm saying is Sonic's foray into the realm of 3D was still in its infant stages back then. Problems were inevitable

Here's the thing: the Adventure games didn't suck because of anything time would affect. They sucked because of idiotic design decisions. If treasure hunting and mech shooting took up 2/3 of Generations, that game would suck. I don't care how polished it is; the fact that I'm only playing a Sonic game for 1/3 of a Sonic game is a flaw. And a really glaring one at that.

The overwhelming majority of paths are directly proceeded by the appropriate Wisp to use, and regardless, only one Wisp works the best if not exclusively on one obstacle. This should have been undercut to the max if not outright, but we'll be forced to agree to disagree on this. =P

I remember tons of times I thought to myself "Wow, there's a whole other path up here!? Cool!", or something of the sort. It made hunting for red rings a very, very fun challenge. I absolutely loved it. So yeah, we're just going to have to agree to disagree. xP

Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, and can be applied to any game. Its when it gets to 06 levels is when its absurd.

Fair enough.

I don't get what you mean by this? Are you referring to the alt. styles?

Once again, not a bad thing. Sonic is the main character I know, but he isn't the only one. The spotlight should be split evenly, and no one should be shoved in the background neither Sonic or anyone else. This is something I actually give the games credit for.

I read your post from Retro, and yes that too was a minor issue with me.

I have my own reasons for disliking the games, mainly because of the Alt. Styles.

Edited my post. My main point is that these factors prove that the Adventure series is worth being treated as a separate entity.

.........I don't think the topic's question will ever be answered. I mean, this thing's already spanned 16 pages, what's gonna stop it now? Threadlocks and threadburies aside.....

But it has:

Differences between Adventure and what we have now:

- More involved storyline

- Slower pacing

- Segregation of styles (speed here, platforming here, exploration here)

- Less spotlight on Sonic

- More focus on "bringing Sonic into our world"

I don't think there would be a problem if Sa3 took alternative playstyles and simply made them really enjoyable.

The problem is that I have to like at least three games just to like this one game. With Generations it's okay because both styles are simply different takes on the same thing, but what they did with the Adventures and Unleashed was fucking inexcusable.

[Dejablue]

I'm not really asking that treasure hunting and mech shooting take up entire thirds of a game. I do want alt play styles but I know that it isn't very applicable to have them take up large chunks of gameplay. But If I do get to play an alternate story line with Knuckles I want to play as Knuckles in a unique way. Not just Knuckles running through Sonic's levels.

And since so much time has passed, who's to say a treasure hunting stage couldn't be fast pace? It shouldn't need explaining with a mech shooter.

Edited July 20, 2011 by Dejablue

[Nepenthe]

ITs not that its not enjoyable, its that it doesn't fit, like someone said in a previous post, Sonic shouldn't have to juggle so many different playstyles in one game, he should stick to one and one that works.

An idea isn't automatically without merit simply because it's unnecessary. Mario gets away with a lot of extraneous shit that isn't pure platforming in his games because it's fun, not because he uses it as a crutch. I imagine if there had been a manta ray racing mini-game in the middle of Aquatic Park, you'd all choke to death on your own saliva. xP

[Kuzu]

Edited my post. My main point is that these factors prove that the Adventure series is worth being treated as a separate entity.

Ya know then that just proves that this series doesn't know what it wants because I remember five years ago, those were all of the reasons everyone started to hate Sonic in addition to the game being bad.

- More involved story? We got ShTh and 06

- Slower Pacing? Sonic moves at a snail's pace in 06.

- Segregation of styles? In addition to everything Sa1 and SA2 gave us, we've had team mechanics, guns and vehicles, catch and throw physics, and a Werehog.

- Less Spotlight on Sonic? Sonic was pretty much pushed into the backseat between 2004-2007.

- More Focus on bringing Sonic into the "real world"? We got butt ugly real humans in 06, as well as realistic Eggman design.

I understand its mostly Sonic Team's doing, but the "fans" don't seem to realize that its those very same things that dragged Sonic into the abyss known as Sonic the Hedgehog(2006).

An idea isn't automatically without merit simply because it's unnecessary. Mario gets away with a lot of extraneous shit that isn't pure platforming in his games because it's fun, not because he uses it as a crutch. I imagine if there had been a manta ray racing mini-game in the middle of Aquatic Park, you'd all choke to death on your own saliva. xP

Maybe if it was something by itself. If Knuckles got a spinoff based around treasure hunting and actually fixed all the problems the sa2 levels had I wouldn't really complain, because A. Its a spinoff and not held to the same standards as the main platforming games and B. It would actually be fun.

Basically imagine Sonic Team trying to juggle those three playstyles all the time, it would be hell designing stages for all of them, especially if you're trying to make the character unique, wasn't this one of the problems with the series? The fact that it couldn't stick to one specific style of gameplay and kepy relying on fancy gimmicks?

[Dejablue]

I don't know. When I was playing those games I wasn't on the internet. So if the rest of the fanbase hated the alt play styles I was not one amongst them.

[Sami]

An idea isn't automatically without merit simply because it's unnecessary. Mario gets away with a lot of extraneous shit that isn't pure platforming in his games because it's fun, not because he uses it as a crutch. I imagine if there had been a manta ray racing mini-game in the middle of Aquatic Park, you'd all choke to death on your own saliva. xP

No, I would have loved it.

If half the game was devoted to it though? Yeah, no.

I'm not really asking that treasure hunting and mech shooting take up entire thirds of a game. I do want alt play styles but I know that it isn't very applicable to have them take up large chunks of gameplay. But If I do get to play an alternate story line with Knuckles I want to play as Knuckles in a unique way. Not just Knuckles running through Sonic's levels.

Considering it's a Sonic game, we should be getting something that has an emphasis on speed and platforming. Anything that doesn't has got to go.

And since so much time has passed, who's to say a treasure hunting stage couldn't be fast pace? It shouldn't need explaining with a mech shooter.

What's your suggestion, then? All I'm imagining is gliding in circles around an enormous, uninteresting stage, but in glorious HD.

Maybe if it was something by itself. If Knuckles got a spinoff based around treasure hunting and actually fixed all the problems the sa2 levels had I wouldn't really complain, because A. Its a spinoff and not held to the same standards as the main platforming games and B. It would actually be fun.

Basically imagine Sonic Team trying to juggle those three playstyles all the time, it would be hell designing stages for all of them, especially if you're trying to make the character unique, wasn't this one of the problems with the series? The fact that it couldn't stick to one specific style of gameplay and kepy relying on fancy gimmicks?

Allow me to add to this:

I play Sonic games for speedy platforming. That's what I enjoy. Had Knuckles gotten a spinoff, I would have looked at it and simply said "Not what I want. I'll just skip it". End of story. With Sonic Adventure 2, I can't do that. If I skip it, I'm missing out on some awesome Sonic levels. If I play it, I have to put up with a bunch of bullshit before I can have fun.

[Dejablue]

a type of vehicle that you drive and shoot in is the first thing to come to mind. But ST's relationship with vehicles...not so nice. So my second option is closer to the flying sessions in SA1

[The Weeb with No Name]

The problem is that I have to like at least three games just to like this one game.

Doesn't sound very problematic to me. If one's fun, it's fun. If three's fun, they're fun.

Wait a minute, I think I might understand. Three times the variety, three times the risk of fucking it up for everything else, right?

Edited July 20, 2011 by Jayhawker30

[Kuzu]

Allow me to add to this:

I play Sonic games for speedy platforming. That's what I enjoy. Had Knuckles gotten a spinoff, I would have looked at it and simply said "Not what I want. I'll just skip it". End of story. With Sonic Adventure 2, I can't do that. If I skip it, I'm missing out on some awesome Sonic levels. If I play it, I have to put up with a bunch of bullshit before I can have fun.

There's also the fact that you're FORCED to play these levels, you have no say so in the matter. Why is it that Speed and platforming are enough for Sonic, but everyone else needs a completely different style to fit? Variety? They already have unique abilities that Sonic doesn't have access to, I imagine that's more than enough to build some levels on, without completely contradicting the core gameplay style(I.e PLATFORMING)

Edited July 20, 2011 by Shadic93

[Sami]

Doesn't sound very problematic to me. If one's fun, it's fun. If three's fun, they're fun.

The problem is that the genres are completely different, so every time a new style is introduced, the chances of a Sonic fan liking it are divided.

Let's assume all Sonic fans like Sonic gameplay. Not really a stretch.

Sonic Team makes a new game with all Sonic gameplay. There's a 100% chance fans will have fun with the whole game, though they may wish they got more.

Now a game with two different playstyles. 50% chance.

Three styles. 30% chance.

And so on and so forth. That's not good.

[Kuzu]

Doesn't sound very problematic to me. If one's fun, it's fun. If three's fun, they're fun.

Wait a minute, I think I might understand. Three times the variety, three times the risk of fucking it up for everything else, right?

I think its more that he finds that one more fun than the other two, but has to put up with the other two anyway to enjoy the part he likes.

Its like having a Cerberus dog, one head is nice and affectionate while the other two are belligerent and mean but you can't chop off the two mean heads because the nice head would die too, so you put up with the other two for the sake of the nice one.

[Nepenthe]

Maybe if it was something by itself. If Knuckles got a spinoff based around treasure hunting and actually fixed all the problems the sa2 levels had I wouldn't really complain, because A. Its a spinoff and not held to the same standards as the main platforming games and B. It would actually be fun.

Basically imagine Sonic Team trying to juggle those three playstyles all the time, it would be hell designing stages for all of them, especially if you're trying to make the character unique, wasn't this one of the problems with the series? The fact that it couldn't stick to one specific style of gameplay and kepy relying on fancy gimmicks?

It was partly a problem in that the public's perception of the gimmicks was that they're ruinous to the standard gameplay no matter how they're done, a lot of which I think is just overwrought melodrama in light of the aesthetic gamble ShtH took. Why? Because Colors is really not some epiphany; Heroes, ShtH, SatSR, and SatBK all do the same thing it does- put a twist on conventional gameplay and focusing only on crafting a single experience around that marriage. However, these four games' critical reception greatly wavers.

06 stands as a weird amalgamation of Colors and the Adventures' way of handling gimmickry, with alternate playstyles being downplayed as merely distinguishing abilities and ways to manipulate and progress in the environment between each character, and giving those characters campaigns. But their general goals are classic Sonic fare- get to the end of the level. It's a pretty neat idea for concession, one I like immensely, but was executed horribly.

Only the Adventures and Unleashed follow the same mantra for gimmicks exactly, and they all have fairly different receptions too. And throughout this conversation here and abroad, time and time again, this fact has been ignored, painting everything before Colors as some textbook example of what not to do with gimmicks when Colors frankly got by on being inoffensive. Give that game a less pleasing color pallette and a few more serious cutscenes, and it's ShtH all over again.

Platformers can generally thrive on variety; I once again point to Mario, who always has you doing a ton of unnecessary yet fun stuff throughout his games that isn't simply jumping on Goombas to great critical fanfare. It's only the Sonic series wherein the thought of doing anything different than running your ass off is something to be feared, (except for Colors of course because it's speshul), when frankly I think conceding a bit towards the Adventures' way within the mainstream titles is the easiest way out of the stagnation many of us are feeling.

And it wouldn't even be that hard or imposing either. I continue pointing to Sonic 06 as a great example, at least on paper. Give each character the same base template of control and set different stages up with the same template of design, but give them different abilities, movements, paths, and diversions. Yes, diversions. A Mach Speed area here, a collection objective there, a vehicular section or two. These are not going to kill anybody, and if simply done well, they would be welcome.

Edited July 20, 2011 by Nepenthe

[Kuzu]

It was partly a problem in that the public's perception of the gimmicks was that they're ruinous to the standard gameplay no matter how they're done, a lot of which I think is just overwrought melodrama in light of the aesthetic gamble ShtH took. Why? Because Colors is really not some epiphany; Heroes, ShtH, SatSR, and SatBK all do the same thing it does- put a twist on conventional gameplay and focusing only on crafting a single experience around that marriage. However, these four games' critical reception greatly wavers.

The difference however th guns in ShTH served no real purpose other than to cash in the FPS at the time, with Colors they were just trying something new.

Do you really feel guns fit in with Sonic's core gameplay?

06 stands as a weird amalgamation of Colors and the Adventures' way of handling gimmickry, with alternate playstyles being downplayed as merely distinguishing abilities and ways to manipulate and progress in the environment between each character, and giving those characters campaigns. But their general goals are classic Sonic fare- get to the end of the level. It's a pretty neat idea for concession, one I like immensely, but was executed horribly.

I admit 06 was a good idea on paper, just poorly executed.

Only the Adventures and Unleashed follow the same mantra for gimmicks exactly, and they all have fairly different receptions too. And throughout this conversation here and abroad, time and time again, this fact has been ignored, painting everything before Colors as some textbook example of what not to do with gimmicks when Colors frankly got by on being inoffensive. Give that game a less pleasing color pallette and a few more serious cutscenes, and it's ShtH all over again.

Not really, the Wisp in Colors served to get you to new areas and rack up more points, the Guns in Shadow served no other role than to take out the enemies faster, which you could already do with Shadow's Chaos Blast ability effectively making the guns redundant and pointless.

Platformers can generally thrive on variety; I once again point to Mario, who always has you doing a ton of unnecessary yet fun stuff throughout his games that isn't simply jumping on Goombas to great critical fanfare. It's only the Sonic series wherein the thought of doing anything different than running your ass off is something to be feared, (except for Colors of course because it's speshul), when frankly I think conceding a bit towards the Adventures' way within the mainstream titles is the easiest way out of the stagnation many of us are feeling.

The difference being when Mario breaks away from platforming in his main games, they're short mini-games that only last one level. In Sonic's case those breaks take up a huge portion of the game and only serve to keep you further from the real action.

And it wouldn't even be that hard or imposing either. I continue pointing to Sonic 06 as a great example, at least on paper. Give each character the same base template of control and set different stages up with the same template of design, but give them different abilities, movements, paths, and diversions. Yes, diversions. A Mach Speed area here, a collection objective there, a vehicular section or two. These are not going to kill anybody, and if simply done well, they would be welcome.

Mach Speed Sections would be kind of pointless considering Sonic's levels nowadays are basically one big mach speed section, but I can agree to this.

[T-Min]

Doesn't sound very problematic to me. If one's fun, it's fun. If three's fun, they're fun.

The problem isn't that all three styles can't be fun. The problem is that you pretty much have to like three different genres to fully enjoy the game. Almost all platformers have brief sections and sometimes entire levels based around a different style or mechanic and, usually, it's fine, but you would be hard-pressed to find another one where it takes up 2/3 of the entire game. The only one outside of the Sonic series that I can think of that comes even close is Sly 3: Honor Among Thieves (about 1/3 of it is alternate gameplay), and I consider that to be a major flaw in that game as well. Not only does this limit both games' appeal to those who dislike such gameplay styles, but it also makes them feel inconsistent. In fact, in Sly 3's case, it sometimes felt like it couldn't quite decide what type of game it wanted to be. Sly Cooper and Sonic the Hedgehog are both platforming series and thus should remain so throughout, at the very least, 90% of their duration. This ensures its appeal to all fans of the series and fans of platformers in general, as well as keeping the game from feeling inconsistent. Even if you (like me) enjoy the alternate gameplay, this is a fact that cannot be denied.

Edited July 20, 2011 by T-Man

[\Lennox]

Okay. If we're really going to make Sonic Adventure 3, the Unleashed formula with added 3D platforming would be perfect for Sonic, but remember that people hated the unnecessary gameplay additions too. To be fair, the only characters we really need are in fact, Sonic and Shadow, to essentially create a Hero/Dark storyline like what everyone wanted back in Sonic Adventure 2. But, the playstyles and general design info will go as follows, and I'll need assistance to make this appeal to everyone so PLEASE help me:

Game structure:

The game will have four characters per story perspective: Sonic, Tails, Amy and Knuckles (in that order) will eventually join Sonic on his Adventure as co-op gameplay partners who you can choose, with a maximum of two per team. The same goes for Shadow, but his team members can be Rouge, Omega and Silver. Each character has their own special powers, and completing every stage with them isn't necessary to beat the game and get to the True Story--heck, the other characters often just have relevance to the story, and gameplay with their assistance helps you progress faster.

Dr. Eggman, this time, will not be playable and will hybridize his E-Series with his Badnik creations to create machines with a robotic, yet cartoony flair. How cutesy the robot will look will depend on what kind of robot it is: bosses, for this purpose Animals will also appear out of these robots for use in the Chao Garden--completely optional to completing the game 100%. Also, all abilities will be carried over from Unleashed and Colors, and Knuckles will take on some Werehog-like combat events, sans health bar. But items and equipment will be unlocked, and your level gradually goes up.

Level Design:

This should generally follow, as said, Unleashed Day/Colors in terms of playstyles: but the problem lies in how linear they are, and Generations attacked that problem and it cause a massive improvement in stage progression. These stages will overlap, and the availability some routes or goals will depend on the character chosen--but it won't impact the story, however. Finishing all the missions will just be part of emblem count and achievements too.

Sonic and Shadow's stages will tone down the reliance on QTE's and 2D platforming, and probably lessen the abundance of Homing Attack chains, and straight lines. Even grind rails get the exploration treatment done right, as some lead into completely different routes as well as using the stomp button on certain bridges. When using the boost, Sonic will be able to walk on walls, but once he stops, he falls--loops are also harder to get into without boosting, spin-dashing or super peel-outing. When slower, Sonic will also be a little more stable as well, unlike in Heroes.

Tails and Omega's gameplay will unlock new routes and ways to complete stages, through either flight, or machinery-based missions--possibly both a la Sky Chase. The machinery can be in the form of vehicles, or hacking into certain objects. The Flight meter will also make a reappearance here as well, and with Zone-exclusive weapons, they can be used to clear enemies down faster and better. Raising and pushing down platforms will also be a key ingredient to their levels, and in digital-themed levels, they can hack through them: but not like cheat codes, seriously folks.

Knuckles and Rouge's gameplay will need Emerald shard location, but luckily, the stages aren't drawn out and the shards are completely optional if you don't want to S-Rank: their abilities, however, will be needed to defeat hordes of enemies/go underground to unlock new routes. Their feats of strength will be needed to help destroy heavy obstacles, so expect some SHIT ROCK NYEHHH in this game as well. Martial arts and ancient echidna inscriptions/classified GUN files will also be used to advance through levels of these type too, and they're a bit more linear as well.

Amy and Silver's gameplay will utilize mystical methods which can be in the form of tarot cards which never existed until now, or kinetic powers to unlock new routes or secrets within stages. Kinesis/the wind generated by the Piko Piko Hammer will be able to let you grab an object and use it as a weapon on all sorts of enemies, and even then, they can help you access new routes or get through certain parts of stages much faster. Who knows, maybe we will even see them take a level in badass just through this system of play! But remember, these styles are completely optional.

[Dejablue]

Comparing Sonic to Sly Cooper is like comparing Batman to My Little Pony.

[Kuzu]

Okay. If we're really going to make Sonic Adventure 3, the Unleashed formula with added 3D platforming would be perfect for Sonic, but remember that people hated the unnecessary gameplay additions too. To be fair, the only characters we really need are in fact, Sonic and Shadow, to essentially create a Hero/Dark storyline like what everyone wanted back in Sonic Adventure 2. But, the playstyles and general design info will go as follows, and I'll need assistance to make this appeal to everyone so PLEASE help me:

Game structure:

The game will have four characters per story perspective: Sonic, Tails, Amy and Knuckles (in that order) will eventually join Sonic on his Adventure as co-op gameplay partners who you can choose, with a maximum of two per team. The same goes for Shadow, but his team members can be Rouge, Omega and Silver. Each character has their own special powers, and completing every stage with them isn't necessary to beat the game and get to the True Story--heck, the other characters often just have relevance to the story, and gameplay with their assistance helps you progress faster.

Dr. Eggman, this time, will not be playable and will hybridize his E-Series with his Badnik creations to create machines with a robotic, yet cartoony flair. How cutesy the robot will look will depend on what kind of robot it is: bosses, for this purpose Animals will also appear out of these robots for use in the Chao Garden--completely optional to completing the game 100%. Also, all abilities will be carried over from Unleashed and Colors, and Knuckles will take on some Werehog-like combat events, sans health bar. But items and equipment will be unlocked, and your level gradually goes up.

Level Design:

This should generally follow, as said, Unleashed Day/Colors in terms of playstyles: but the problem lies in how linear they are, and Generations attacked that problem and it cause a massive improvement in stage progression. These stages will overlap, and the availability some routes or goals will depend on the character chosen--but it won't impact the story, however. Finishing all the missions will just be part of emblem count and achievements too.

Sonic and Shadow's stages will tone down the reliance on QTE's and 2D platforming, and probably lessen the abundance of Homing Attack chains, and straight lines. Even grind rails get the exploration treatment done right, as some lead into completely different routes as well as using the stomp button on certain bridges. When using the boost, Sonic will be able to walk on walls, but once he stops, he falls--loops are also harder to get into without boosting, spin-dashing or super peel-outing. When slower, Sonic will also be a little more stable as well, unlike in Heroes.

Tails and Omega's gameplay will unlock new routes and ways to complete stages, through either flight, or machinery-based missions--possibly both a la Sky Chase. The machinery can be in the form of vehicles, or hacking into certain objects. The Flight meter will also make a reappearance here as well, and with Zone-exclusive weapons, they can be used to clear enemies down faster and better. Raising and pushing down platforms will also be a key ingredient to their levels, and in digital-themed levels, they can hack through them: but not like cheat codes, seriously folks.

Knuckles and Rouge's gameplay will need Emerald shard location, but luckily, the stages aren't drawn out and the shards are completely optional if you don't want to S-Rank: their abilities, however, will be needed to defeat hordes of enemies/go underground to unlock new routes. Their feats of strength will be needed to help destroy heavy obstacles, so expect some SHIT ROCK NYEHHH in this game as well. Martial arts and ancient echidna inscriptions/classified GUN files will also be used to advance through levels of these type too, and they're a bit more linear as well.

Amy and Silver's gameplay will utilize mystical methods which can be in the form of tarot cards which never existed until now, or kinetic powers to unlock new routes or secrets within stages. Kinesis/the wind generated by the Piko Piko Hammer will be able to let you grab an object and use it as a weapon on all sorts of enemies, and even then, they can help you access new routes or get through certain parts of stages much faster. Who knows, maybe we will even see them take a level in badass just through this system of play! But remember, these styles are completely optional.

Now this would be fine if it didn't seem like Shadow, Rouge, Omega, and Silver's gameplay just seem like palette swaps of the heroes`. If they have nothing unique about them other than routes, what's the point of them being playable? You're better off just sticking with Sonic, Tails, Knuckles and Amy. IF you really want to have a Dark Story then just give Team Dark similar gameplay, but with their own unique abilities(Shadow's Chaos Powers, Rouge's Bombs, Omega's arsenal) to not make them complete palette swaps.

[\Lennox]

Comparing Sonic to Sly Cooper is like comparing Batman to My Little Pony.

Well, Batman and My Little Pony are comparable: they're certainly memetic.

Speaking of which, did SC feature any unorthodox gameplay styles, and like Adventure, did it jar with the gameplay we're used to? And those balloon things back in Battle weren't just combustible balloons, but bombs as well!?

Edited July 20, 2011 by Benson

[Kuzu]

Comparing Sonic to Sly Cooper is like comparing Batman to My Little Pony.

Hmm.

Both are platformers with the protagonist being an anthropomorphic mammal with a snarky sense of humor. Their best friends consist of a smart techie who makes all the plans, and a hot headed but not particularly bright brawler(Lol alliteration). Different as night and day.

Edited July 20, 2011 by Shadic93

[Nepenthe]

The difference however th guns in ShTH served no real purpose other than to cash in the FPS at the time, with Colors they were just trying something new.

Do you really feel guns fit in with Sonic's core gameplay?

Because power-ups and vertical exploration are novel in this series? Classics much?

Anyway, I see no reason why guns can't, unless we should just remove Omega from the playable character pool and stack one more reason on top of the list detailing why Fang shouldn't ever appear in this series again. A gun being an extension of a way to attack is hardly some clashing ideal, the only difference from offensive Chaos Powers, particularly Spear, which people here always love to daydream about, being the aesthetics.

Not really, the Wisp in Colors served to get you to new areas and rack up more points, the Guns in Shadow served no other role than to take out the enemies faster, which you could already do with Shadow's Chaos Blast ability effectively making the guns redundant and pointless.

Shadow's Chaos Blast ability wasn't always readily available; you had to build it up by destroying stuff, and the easiest way to do it? Gunfire. Guns and mechs were your prime means of progression and scoring in the game, the same as the Wisps. You used them for everything from general attack to fulfilling objectives efficiently to hitting switches. Both gimmicks are pretty much cut from the same mold in terms of function and general impact on the gameplay goals.

The difference being when Mario breaks away from platforming in his main games, they're short mini-games that only last one level. In Sonic's case those breaks take up a huge portion of the game and only serve to keep you further from the real action.

This has only happened three times. The other six games with gimmicks as a main selling point are handled in a way that doesn't necessarily halt the main action to have you do something else entirely. Six games out of nine- the overwhelming majority of the 3D platformers- and yet gimmicks have somehow always been implemented wrong and have always stopped you from playing the real game you paid all that money for.

Mach Speed Sections would be kind of pointless considering Sonic's levels nowadays are basically one big mach speed section, but I can agree to this.

I mentioned it as a way to illustrate the point, not as a serious suggestion. xP

[Kuzu]

Speaking of which, did SC feature any unorthodox gameplay styles, and like Adventure, did it jar with the gameplay we're used to?

Nope. It had power-ups that were completely optional, and didn't take up half the game.

[Dejablue]

Hmm.

Both are platformers with the protagonist being an anthropomorphic mammal with a snarky sense of humor. Their best friends consist of a smart techie who makes all the plans, and a hot headed but not particularly bright brawler(Lol alliteration). Different as night and day.

In terms of gameplay.From Sly 2 to Sly 3 it was all about alt gameplay styles. The only one out of the series that was "mostly" one style of play throughout was the first one. So if you're a Sly Cooper fan but didn't like the second game. Then you probably shouldn't be a Sly Cooper fan in the first place.

But oh crap this topic isn't about Sly Cooper. And I really need to stop putting "YOU"'s in my speech because people think I'm talking directly at them and then get pissy.

Edited July 20, 2011 by Dejablue