Why do people want Sonic Adventure 3?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I still got some unfinished business regarding that response to my post, so if you please...

The games don't actually take themselves seriously. It's a game about cartoon animals stealing from other cartoon animals to uncover secrets about ....stuff.

Edited July 20, 2011 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Dejablue]

You know one thing I didn't like about Unleashed was how they treated the air plane segments. It was just the most frustrating way to fly a plane in any video game ever. A friend of mine brought up the mech shooting in SA2. He said it was fun but only when you were tearing through it. He didn't like stoping and waiting for platforms. Eh I don't know why this killed him. You stop and wait for platforms in old Sonic games. But anyway his basic idea was even in a mech, He thinks its better if you keep moving and never have to stop. Even for elevators or buttons.

Edit: Well that isn't his full idea. i can't really remember all that he said and I probably can't accurately re state it either. But he did mention something about having to fight mini bosses or tougher than average enemies by circle strafing them. Because circle strafing is more fun than stop-shoot-stop-shoot-stop-shoot

Edited July 20, 2011 by Dejablue

[thedarkknight]

Can you guys please stop talking about Sly, it is off-topic...

I assume people want SA3 because they are tired of mediocre games like SU and S4. I wouldn't mind SA3 as long as it's good and there's no Werehog and Shadow needs to be playable.

[pppp]

I wouldn't mind SA3 as long as it's good and there's no Werehog

If it's SA3 it will have some boring alternate playstyle that's what those games do.

[Koopalmier]

You know, I'm one of those who want a SA3.

I'm also one of those insane people rejected by society who enjoyed all Sonic games during his "bad" era (from Heroes to Black Knight) (although I was a bit frustrated by SA2 because it's slower than SA1, and SH because I encounter a glitch every two levels, but I like these games again now).

You know why I want a SA3 ? For its style. Multiple sides of the story, each with their own gameplay that is executed well (at least I think so - as for Big's levels, they are incredibly short and easy, I don't see what's wrong. Big is a bit like the laid-back chapter of the game). Each side of the story sometimes meets (except for Tails' story in SA1, it starts like Sonic's but alter splits). The whole story is good, the characters and music are likeable, and the universe feels like it has a feet in the real world. However, Sonic should have the biggest side of the story, and thus the most levels.

That's not the case with Heroes.

That's not the case with Shadow.

That's not the case with Sonic '06.

That's not the case with Unleashed.

That's not the case with Colors.

Now, I'm not saying a Sonic game can only be good if it wears the Adventure name, and I can say I enjoyed those games (except '06, I didn't play that one). But the Sonic Adventures are a bit like... what the Mario RPGs are to the Mario series: nice big story (that doesn't last 60 hours either) with nice gameplay (even if there are multiple gameplay styles), nice characters, nice story, and an interesting view of the original universe.

Ironically, Sonic Adventure was originally called Sonic RPG.

The only flaws of Sonic Adventure 1 are the physics and the clumsy animations.

SA2 fixed those (but the game is slower, there are fewer levels, and fewer sides of the story, making the whole story shorter too).

Also:

I don't think they want it out of nostalgia. I think it's because they loved SA1 and SA2's concept and style.

However, I think that they are ASKING it out of nostalgia. They can't realize SEGA can't fuck it up. Because Sonic '06 is SA3, and we know how that ended.

[ChikaBoing]

I wouldn't mind SA3 as long as it's good and there's no Werehog

So if you replace it with Knuckles you would be OK with it? Why is a skin so important?

[CobaltBlue]

Cuz SA3 will have Chao Garden. You can't have a good Sonic game without Chao Garden Sonic Team needs to learn this. Plzzzz SEGA make SA3 with Chao Garden you will make millions cuz Chao Garden is bst.

Edited July 20, 2011 by CobaltBlue

[Eastwood]

Cuz SA3 will have Chao Garden. You can't have a good Sonic game without Chao Garden Sonic Team needs to learn this. Plzzzz SEGA make SA3 with Chao Garden you will make millions cuz Chao Garden is bst.

Yeah chao gardens would be great, especially with an online mode. But the question is how many chao gardens?

one?

three?

Six?

[Koopalmier]

Chao Garden don't belong in Sonic.

I want to play Sonic. An action game. Even Big's fishing levels contain some action.

I don't want to play some kind of pet simulation.

[Eastwood]

Chao Garden don't belong in Sonic.

I want to play Sonic. An action game. Even Big's fishing levels contain some action.

I don't want to play some kind of pet simulation.

Why do they not belong?

Chao have been apart of sonic since SA1.

[pppp]

Cuz SA3 will have Chao Garden. You can't have a good Sonic game without Chao Garden Sonic Team needs to learn this. Plzzzz SEGA make SA3 with Chao Garden you will make millions cuz Chao Garden is bst.

[thedarkknight]

So if you replace it with Knuckles you would be OK with it? Why is a skin so important?

[Koopalmier]

Why do they not belong?

Chao have been apart of sonic since SA1.

[Eastwood]

Chao Garden have been apart of Sonic since SA1.

And they stopped being apart of Sonic since SA2.

They don't belong because they're a PET SIMULATION.

In an ACTION GAME.

Even worse that you need to play it to get all emblems.

I understand why it's there. SEGA thought "hey, this game is already well stuffed, but we still have some time. So let's add a pet simulation ! With cute creatures ! That will appear in the story !". But... come on, it's almost like if nintendogs was part of Super Mario Galaxy.

[Diogenes]

Because it takes up resources that could be used on the actual game, and previous games have proved that they need all the time, money, and effort they can get.

[Koopalmier]

Because it takes up resources that could be used on the actual game, and previous games have proved that they need all the time, money, and effort they can get.

Plus having something totally unrelated to the game being in the game doesn't make sense, that's all. If they want a pet simulation, they could have made it into a separate game, where they would've put more ressources and time.

And it's not optional to get all emblems in SA2.

[Indigo Rush]

The concept of making the long-anticipated "Sonic Adventure 3" is an open-ended one. The first 2 Adventures are actually fairly different from each-other, and this is something I don't think people realize.

The only thing that's the same is a story-driven adventure with multiple characters. The hub worlds were not featured in Sonic Adventure 2, the number of gameplay styles was cut in half, the Chao Garden was expanded from a simple AI simulator with a largely hands-free racing minigame into a megalithic hub of breeding (plus Karate in the Gamecube version!), the story took a slightly darker turn, Eggman actually became a playable character and a more sympathetic being, a multiplayer mode was added (and expanded in the Gamecube version, too) and an expansive kart-racing minigame was added, which was leaps and bounds over Twinkle Circuit in the first Adventure. Additionally, the music style changed a bit as well, and the organization of level and story progression turned from a Rashômon-esque tale from 6 points of view to one of only 2 points of view. Instead of 6 stories, you had 2.

More has changed than has stayed the same in the Adventure titles, and we can see a clear effort on Sonic Team's part to expand and experiment the 3D Sonic formula. The answer was not to expand on the "Adventure" element, but to expand on the "Sonic" element. If it were the case for the former, Sonic Adventure 3 would have been released already as a full-blown sequel to Adventure 2 in terms of gameplay and story.

But it wasn't, was it?

Although the "Adventure 3" title has been a code-name in many following titles, as Hogfather will keenly point out to everyone, it was never finalized, because the so-called "Adventure" element had long since abandoned in an attempt to evolve SONIC, not everyone else. We then got Sonic Heroes, which was essentially Sonic, but with two other characters you could switch with on a whim, Shadow was, for all intents and purposes, Sonic gameplay with vehicles and firearms integrated within, along with a branching story path. Sonic 2006 was the only game since Sonic Adventure 2 to go back to the formula of the first Adventure, and I guarantee that even if there wasn't a single glitch to be found, it still would have failed. Sonic Unleashed (and even Secret Rings) was an honest attempt to figure out Sonic's true 3D calling, and they found the hi-speed boosting from behind-the-back to be the most successful, and the one style that seemed to embody the feeling of speed and excitement that the originals were known for. Yes, there's the boost, yes, they add things like quick-stepping and drifting, but those moves corrected the problem of control in a 3D environment while running at super speed.

If there were to be an "Adventure 3," it could literally be anything at this point. The next modern Sonic game to have Sonic only with no hubworlds or dark story and no Chao Garden has the same chance as one that's more in-line with Sonic Adventure or Sonic 2006.

I've said this before, but the bar for 3D Sonic should NOT be the Adventure series, because that's a bar we've already reached. We need to reach higher, and in my personal opinion, and the opinion of a major chunk of the general public, we've already passed it with the concepts and execution of Daytime Unleashed, Colors and Modern Generations. (Doesn't mean we can't keep aiming higher!)

Edited July 20, 2011 by Indigo Rush

[ChikaBoing]

I understand why it's there. SEGA thought "hey, this game is already well stuffed, but we still have some time. So let's add a pet simulation ! With cute creatures ! That will appear in the story !". But... come on, it's almost like if nintendogs was part of Super Mario Galaxy.

Actually it was there to show the capabilities of the VMU of the Dremacast at the time.

Edited July 20, 2011 by ChikaBoing

[Voyant]

So if you replace it with Knuckles you would be OK with it? Why is a skin so important?

When did Sonic Fans start being so xenophobic?

[Kuzu]

Ok Rested, and ready to get back to action.

Actually, I'm kinda in agreement with Nepenthe here so far mainly because we came to a lot of those very conclusions she's said years ago in the middle of the series Dark Ages. Not that you didn't have any great points either, tho, but I have to admit that even I would've challenged some of your other points.

Well....Fucking shit, guess I'm on my own with this.

I thought the most commonly accepted way of implementing alternative characters was to make them play exactly like Sonic but with one or two tacked-on differences unbefitting for him. Treat Shadow classically, and it's a problem because he is actually supposed to play like a pallette swap of Sonic?

Regardless, you do agree with me that guns can fit with Sonic gameplay by conceding you'd be okay with a playable Omega again? Great.

Yeah, if they can design Omega in a way that doesn't seem stupid, then I'd all for it. I loved blowing shit up with him in Heroes.

First, that's false; there are main stages, side acts, and bosses that do actually require you to use the Wisps to progress at certain points with Spikes, Hover, and Rocket being the main offenders I can recall from memory. Secondly, you're now moving the goal post; this entire topic you've been railing against the Adventure games on the fact that the gimmicks take you out of main Sonic gameplay and force you to do something else entirely removed from it. You even asked me if a particular gimmick could fit with core Sonic ideals. I demonstrate this isn't the case for six whole games, and you bust out with "proper integration means the designers are still forcing you to use it, therefore it doesn't count." Honestly.

Ok I don't remember anytime in Colors where you're forced to use the wisp, and even if you were they were short 30 second breaks, you didn't spend an entire stage using wisp powers, that't the point I'm making here. So you're telling me that playing with swords, guns completely fits with Sonic in every way shape and form? I never said the gimmicks "don't count" but you are still forcing you use it, therefore while it doesn't detract from Sonic' gameplay, it gets tiring when you have to do it for the entire level.

Quality couldn't be any further away from the point I was making which is thus: These are not Adventure experiences from a design standpoint simply because they have gimmicks. Their gimmicks are included in the experience in different ways and to differing levels of critical reception, meaning gimmickry it not inherently harmful to design quality.

They are included in a way that's badly designed for all the reasons I just listed, those games had bad quality BECAUSE of their gimmicks, or at least poor implementation of them which also detracted from the main experience.

So now we're in agreement with the point I reiterated above: Gimmicks aren't the inherent problem but their implementation, which means Adventure-originating gimmicks like shooting and treasure hunting aren't automatically damaging to gameplay like everyone's been saying this whole entire time.

They aren't damaging the gameplay, they're Detracting from it. When you pop in a Sonic game you expect to play some awesome platforming stages, stuff like mech shooting and Treasure Hunting would be an after thought, and if you ever expected to play such levels, I only expected it to be a one level deal, not take up 2/3 of the entire game.

Hell half the complaints about Unleashed was how the Werehog was only getting in the way of the Day time stages

[Dejablue]

Chao Gardens are optional. If you're a collections nut I guess for the sake of you guys they shouldn't wrap emblem gathering around raising chao. Maybe. Other than that I thought the Gardens were completely optional.

[Nepenthe]

Yeah, if they can design Omega in a way that doesn't seem stupid, then I'd all for it. I loved blowing shit up with him in Heroes.

[Kuzu]

He seemed like a pretty decent Gamma knock-off in Sonic 06, although honestly I can't remember playing much as him.

His hovering was completely broken 06.

That's still 30 seconds the game forces upon you its gimmick, ergo Colors falls out of the boundaries you just defined which are silly because you weren't against gimmicks on integration, rather that they were segregated and mandatory like the Adventure games and Unleashed. After I make a clear observation about Colors' way of doing things, suddenly you do want gimmicks completely separate from the Sonic experience but- for some strange reason- wholly optional, which has never been done in the entire history of the 3D installments and frankly shouldn't be because it's a waste of developmental resources. Regardless, your back-peddling is still in full effect.

Second, an integrated, heavily-advertised gimmick that the game was specially designed to support like the Wisps is the experience, a single cohesive Sonic experience that is given depth by the gimmicks' expansion on default gameplay, which is what I thought most people- including you- considered the optimal way of doing things. Thus, to see you complaining about even that level of reverence for Sonic gameplay, saying that it instead results in people "getting tired," is silly. People weren't tired from Colors nor even Heroes back in the day. Same is true of the critics who lauded out good and great scores like candy on Halloween.

I'm not back pedaling I don't want gimmicks shoved in my face at every turn of the game, I want them to be small and almost non existent, what part of this don't you understand.

When I said "getting tired" I mean I don't want to use said gimmick for the entirety of the game, I never said I was against the gimmicks themselves, just how they were used. If those six games(Excluding Colors) used their gimmicks without being implemented badly, I wouldn't be complaining about them.

This refutes nothing that I've been saying.

You said the gimmicks of those six games wern't harmful to the designs, and I responded yes they were because of how they were use.

Detracting, damaging; tomato, tomato.

Anyway, in every single 3D Sonic game, you are platforming regardless of how the gimmicks have been done. That expectation has always been reliably met.

Yes you are platforming, but not in the tradional sense of the word.

Edited July 20, 2011 by Shadic93

[pppp]

Where the hell did the treasure hunting stages have platforming?

[Sami]

On the topic of Sly, let's just say there's a reason Sly 1 is my favorite in the series.