Why do people want Sonic Adventure 3?

[Nepenthe]

You could technically say the same thing about the classics with Sonic 4, Chikaboing. Be careful, now.

Edited July 18, 2011 by Nepenthe

[Diogenes]

Quoted and edited for truth. It scares the shit out of me that people are saying they want the walls gone, effectively allowing for more death pits. Like, what the fuck? Seriously?

Yes, I want to remove all the walls and do nothing else. That's exactly what I'm asking for. Seriously. Seriously.

...

[Voyant]

So, what.. else do you want to do? I have a feeling that if you got your way, it wouldn't even be Modern gameplay.

More like it wouldn't be Sonic gameplay...at some points I feel that people that bitch about the exploration aspect want something like this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mjzh2N9952A

For them to be satisfied...you know since the classics aren't linear at all.

Edited July 18, 2011 by Voyant

[Treacher]

More like it wouldn't be Sonic gameplay...at some points I feel that people that bitch about the exploration aspect want something like this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mjzh2N9952A

For them to be satisfied...you know since the classics aren't linear at all.

Nope, some were, some weren't. They did feature nice branching paths though.

I'd imagine people would want something between that and what we have now, maybe like a refined Sonic Free Runner:

Edited July 18, 2011 by Treacher

[Kuzu]

Nope, some were, some weren't. They did feature nice branching paths though.

I'd imagine people would want something between that and what we have now, maybe like a refined Sonic Free Runner:

that level's way too fucking big to be a Sonic level dude, hell I couldn't tell where he was going half the time. if that was a Hub world even that would be pushing it.

[Voyant]

Nope, some were, some weren't. They did feature nice branching paths though.

I'd imagine people would want something between that and what we have now, maybe like a refined Sonic Free Runner:

*Awsome Free Runner Vid*

I'ma use an old post to express my frustration...

A lot of people would love to have this. I would too as a layout, but Imagine allll that land that you can run on. Now fill that land with level design, traps, platforms, details, obstacles that are Sonic Like.

Are you having a hard time doing it?

Cause I sure am and I'm a pretty imaginative person. How do you lay out obstacles and traps in a land this big where it becomes relative to what to what your doing? And how do you fill in this space while still giving a sense of Point A to Point B? How do you create levels?

But lets say you DO figure such things out, how many of these same landscapes with slightly different level design that stretch for MILES would it take for Sonic to go through while still giving people a sense of speed and length, while making things look pretty enough for people to not go "Pshh dem ghrphix suck dude".. How bland would environments need to be so it doesn't fry the system? Old Sonic never GAVE you this much elbow room..,sure you could go left gotcha, but still.

I wish I could run Sonic in surreal setting of the size of New York with Sonic like obstacles and looks, I dream of that, but the only way that's happen if the entire game was just based off my dream level and no one going to be satisfied with 1 level. Consoles don't have the POWER to do such feats to provide such a WIDE terrain to be explored at high speeds and then make 6-8 of them again. Let alone how to keep the game feeling Sonic like...or at all even a platformer.

Unleashed could use some wider terrain sure...but if a level like Eggmanland with its hugeness starts making the frame rate drop rendering ALL that terrain...what makes you think that having a game like I mentioned is going to be AT ALL stable enough to be playable.

Even if ST gets better with their tech (like they are with with Generations) were not going to see any large level design like that. Not for a "speedy" platfromer like Sonic...at least not this gen.

Its all easier said than done...seriously people need to do some research in gaming and level design.

Edited July 18, 2011 by Voyant

[Diogenes]

So, what.. else do you want to do?

I'm not going to write up a full game idea, but regarding this issue:

See that black stuff, that's all valid playable area. That's solid ground, not bottomless pits, not impassable objects, not unreachable background detail, not the nebulous space outside the game world that you're never supposed to get to. Those red lines are specific paths through the playable area; maybe one's a trail of rings leading in the most obvious direction, maybe one starts with a spring leading to a higher area, maybe one's a tunnel that you have to break your way into. The white stuff is invalid play area; the pits, the walls (visible or otherwise), the background stuff, all the areas where you aren't supposed to be.

Now here's the trick. See how there are multiple red lines running in parallel? See how most of them are connected by black space, rather than separated by white space? That is to say, how there is valid playable space between them rather than walls and/or death pits?

That.

That is what I want to do.

More like it wouldn't be Sonic gameplay...at some points I feel that people that bitch about the exploration aspect want something like this...

*snip*

For them to be satisfied...you know since the classics aren't linear at all.

Also note how it has a clearly defined start and goal, and an overall linear level flow.

Because it's not a goddamn open world game you twit.

[ChikaBoing]

I don't think people want anything more open than Adventure really.

edit:ninjad

Edited July 18, 2011 by ChikaBoing

[Treacher]

I'ma use an old post to express my frustration...

Well, I did say more refined. Should've said streamlined too. But yes, something more akin to Eggmanland might do the job. I'd love to see cues from that in the modern version of Chemical Plant.

Edit: I'm digging Dio's diagram, there.

Edited July 18, 2011 by Treacher

[Voyant]

I'm not going to write up a full game idea, but regarding this issue:

See that black stuff, that's all valid playable area. That's solid ground, not bottomless pits, not impassable objects, not unreachable background detail, not the nebulous space outside the game world that you're never supposed to get to. Those red lines are specific paths through the playable area; maybe one's a trail of rings leading in the most obvious direction, maybe one starts with a spring leading to a higher area, maybe one's a tunnel that you have to break your way into. The white stuff is invalid play area; the pits, the walls (visible or otherwise), the background stuff, all the areas where you aren't supposed to be.

Now here's the trick. See how there are multiple red lines running in parallel? See how most of them are connected by black space, rather than separated by white space? That is to say, how there is valid playable space between them rather than walls and/or death pits?

That.

That is what I want to do.

Also note how it has a clearly defined start and goal, and an overall linear level flow.

Because it's not a goddamn open world game you twit.

So...you want City Escape in Sonic Generations? Because thats PRETTY much what I got from that. You know what that is?

False Exploration

Adventure also had FALSE exploration it made it seem like you had a lot of room to look around (and you could, hell you could find some goodies here and there.) But it isn't much different from blazing through Arid Sands, actually stopping to look around to notices little secerts in the hallways. City Escape alone in Generations completely destroys the old 1 in terms of openness and alternate routes. the level is literally littered with them and you can pretty much go the entire level of City Escape without the "Need to Boost" present in Unleashed.

Its the same game concept instead it gives you a boost button and some extra skills. It just more horizontal than it is vertical. 3D is much harder to develop than a 2D game...there a lot more factors that are present that is hard to make controllable in 3D...I sure ST realized this when making Adventure and decided on a change in concept, but not entirely leaving the concepts of the older games. All major franchises went through changes in 3D to accommodate. Why can't Sonic?

Classic game mastered false exploration, but its much easier to do in 2D than it is 3D because you can make level more vertical. In 3D this is a lot harder to implement.

Why is this so hard for people to understand I will never know.

Edited July 18, 2011 by Voyant

[Diogenes]

So...you want City Escape in Sonic Generations?

Not quite the same thing, is it.

[pppp]

So...you want City Escape in Sonic Generations? Because thats PRETTY much what I got from that. You know what that is?

False Exploration

Adventure also had FALSE exploration it made it seem like you had a lot of room to look around (and you could, hell you could find some goodies here and there.) But it isn't much different from blazing through Arid Sands, actually stopping to look around to notices little secerts in the hallways. City Escape alone in Generations completely destroys the old 1 in terms of openness and alternate routes. the level is literally littered with them and you can pretty much go the entire level of City Escape without the "Need to Boost" present in Unleashed.

Its the same game concept instead it gives you a boost button and some extra skills. It just more horizontal than it is vertical. 3D is much harder to develop than a 2D game...there a lot more factors that are present that is hard to make controllable in 3D...I sure ST realized this when making Adventure and decided on a change in concept, but not entirely leaving the concepts of the older games. All major franchises went through changes in 3D to accommodate. Why can't Sonic?

Classic game mastered false exploration, but its much easier to do in 2D than it is 3D because you can make level more vertical. In 3D this is a lot harder to implement.

Why is this so hard for people to understand I will never know.

This.

[ChikaBoing]

The Classics didn't usually have more routes than what's shown above.

[Voyant]

Not quite the same thing, is it.

I understand what you saying, but you not going to get anything like that this gen with 2.5 years of development time. You want Something like Eggmanland every level (first part). With decent lenght? Come back in another 10 years and maybe you will get your Sonic game that you want when we have better hardware.

Unless you can dump Sonic Team a developmental Team the Size of Activsion and gave them 4 to 5 years to develop a Sonic Title.

There is such thing as setting the bar too high...this is SEGA not Square Enix...you know the company that declining in the market? Hell Square wouldn't make a Sonic game that big...look at Final Fantasy 13

Edited July 18, 2011 by Voyant

[Scar]

Not quite the same thing, is it.

No it isn't

Your point is?

Sonic Generations' stages, are modelled using this very principle. Having a linear level, with various routes that are interconnected within the playable space. Not all levels need to have that many routes each.

Edited July 18, 2011 by Scar

[Treacher]

Not quite the same thing, is it.

This just might be a personal niggle of mine, but the 2D area before the truck chase looks nice and all, but having platforming in an actual 3D environment might be a better use for it.

[Diogenes]

The Classics didn't usually have more routes than what's shown above.

Really?

I understand what you saying, but you not going to get anything like that this gen with 2.5 years of development time. You want Something like Eggmanland every level (first part).

I'm not sure you do. I'm not talking about ridiculously huge; I'm talking about putting things near each other.

[Voyant]

This just might be a personal niggle of mine, but the 2D area before the truck chase looks nice and all, but having platforming in an actual 3D environment might be a better use for it.

I'm not sure you do. I'm not talking about ridiculously huge; I'm talking about putting things near each other.

And you know how they are going to do that...by sticking to what they got now and slowly phasing out 2D once they get better at 3D...the Modern Gameplay evolves with every game that comes out in one way or another. Going back to a gameplay style that eventually failed and aged horribly is NOT the way to do it.

Slowly Modern Gameplay is getting there...let Sonic Team reach their peak (You know like Sonic 3&K) in a gameplay style for once instead asking them to drop everything and start again from scratch...THIS is what was wrong with SONIC in the first place. He doing much better now and people now want Sonic Adventure 3 which it's games from the past had so much filler that you might as well call it Genera Roulette: The Game.

And now we get pretty much have Adventure like elements in Sonic Generations that completely disapproves that Modern Gameplay can't indeed evolve and expand and be much better than the Adventures and people STILL bitch, or they want exploration like Prototype, or think Sonic Team is Bungie with extra money laying around, or want to FRY the fuck out of their home consoles...

HOLY fuck! Get in a goddamn time machine, go 10 years in the future and hope Sonic is still around when we have PS4/Xbox720 and you might get the game you want...but right now THIS FUCKING GEN WITH SEGA...unless Sonic Generations sells 20 million copies...its not happening.

Edited July 19, 2011 by Voyant

[novelty]

I only want it because I don't care for the Storybook/Unleashed playstyle. I don't miss the glitches though. It'd be nice if we could finally get an Adventure game that didn't have several terrible glitches. I'd also like a few Adventure games that didn't rely on pitfalls to challenge the player, but that could be said for any Sonic playstyle.

I also miss the intertwining stories, different playable characters, and Chao Gardens. I also miss the Music Style. It hasn't been the same since Sonic Heroes.

I think this is the exact reason why 3,000+ people want a Sonic Adventure 3.

[novelty]

Sorry for the double post, my mouse automatically double clicks when I single click...total mindfuck,

Edited July 18, 2011 by Loelita

[pppp]

Nintendo also streamlined Mario's 3D gameplay with Galaxy 1 because they realized 64 & Sunshine went overboard with the exploration(The levels were so huge that there wasn't that much platforming to be done in comparison with 2D Mario games[Except for the Bowser and the later stages which were a lot better in that regard]).

There isn't any platforming here:

The level's huge yes,but did have platforming? No.Was it challenging? No. All you did was swim to the sub,jump 3 times and get the star. I recently replayed this game(And i grew up with this game loving the heck out of it) and even though i still find it a very good game i prefer the Galaxy games because of their quicker pace and focus on platforming:

Linear and small? Yes. But it definitely was more challenging and fun then most of 64's "Walk through long empty open paths till you find the star" missions.

The reason Sonic games are the way they are now is because Sonic Team is doing the same.

[Diogenes]

The reason Sonic games are the way they are now is because Sonic Team is doing the same.

Oh. Maybe they should try making Sonic games instead, then.

[Voyant]

I will also like to add that a lot of Mario Galaxy 2's gameplay was done in False 3D (Ala 2D) in The Galaxy Games. Galaxy 2 is considered the best fucking game ever made. Why can't Sonic do this? For some reason Sonic games is held to an even higher standard than Mario?

Why this is have no fucking clue!

Edited July 18, 2011 by Voyant

[Diogenes]

For some reason Sonic games is held to an even higher standard than Mario?

No, they're held to Sonic game standards, which are different from Mario game standards, not necessarily higher.

[Scar]

We shouldn't really be arguing about this in this thread.

Oh and Dio's idea is on the right track, because that is what Sonic Team seem to be doing anyway. It was at the very least what was happening in Eggmanland and definately in Jungle Joyride and Skyscraper Scamper Day