Why do people want Sonic Adventure 3?

[Phos]

Mind going into more detail?

[The Weeb with No Name]

It's clear to me that this new style of Sonic gameplay has at least the same amount of heart and ambition put into it as the Adventure games did (moreso SA1, SA2 feels a lot more bland and generic to me). It's literally not possible to find anything remotely similar to what we have in Unleashed, and I don't think Sonic Team gets enough credit for that. The best way to describe it isn't as a platformer, but simply as Sonic.

Unleashed was absolutely amazing the first time I buckled down for some daytime. Shit, the only times before that I felt so engaged by a first level in a Sonic game was City Escape and Angel Island.

If ever there was a style of gameplay as fitting and risk free for Sonic to use, I'd put my chips with daytime. Just to be clear, I'm not saying what the Adventures brought to the table should be some sort of mainstay; I don't think there should be any centralized style of game for him.

Sonic should come in different shapes and flavors in my opinion, since people have different interpretations of what makes the "ideal" Sonic. What is a delightfully varied romp to some comes across as a headbanging clusterfuck to others. What can be considered to be the very essence of being the fastest thing alive can also be seen as a rather uninvolving reflex test that gets old as fast as it runs, depending on who you ask.

Opinion ranges widely. As such, I think the ideal scenario would be to keep the market as varied as the consumer's taste, and with that said, the best question to ask wouldn't be "Why do people want it?"; rather, "do enough people want it?".

But if "why" really needs an answer, I'd say that people simply liked what the series was going for and would like to see a continuation of it. Personally, I'm not holding on to the edge of my seat for an Sa3, but I think if it were to be made with the same fresh, fearless, envelope-pushing zeal of the last two, then it could be a real treat.

(Btw, I'm sure I've played a few games that feel a lot like Unleashed. Midnight Club 3 and Hydro Thunder comes to mind. And God of War.)

[Voyant]

But if "why" really needs an answer, I'd say that people simply liked what the series was going for and would like to see a continuation of it. Personally, I'm not holding on to the edge of my seat for an Sa3, but I think if it were to be made with the same fresh, fearless, envelope-pushing zeal of the last two, then it could be a real treat.

You know I really can't argue against that....well spoken.

[T-Min]

Ok. Let's start at the start.

[novelty]

I am afraid that I am going to get negrepped for saying this, but...

I find the 21st century games to be distracting in detail. SC, ShTH, '06, etc. were all big distractions because of the amount of detail and technicality in each game. Probably the only game that came close to SA2 was Unleashed because of the multifaceted story (which includes a bonus promo-movie that explains that Sonic does not reach to every destination in a day. Also, if there was no fast-acting treasure hunting and no Shoot 'em up massacare in SA2...then we would all complain about how short that game was and wished on the participation on working at an alternate game mode.

IMHO, SA2 did it best for the alternate gameplay. Fast enough to go through the level in under a minute, but slow enough if you want to get the emblems (which was the game's way of showing how far you completed the game.

Chao Gardens was one of those features in those games that, back then, was promised to occur. The lack of it on these new, modern ones makes chaos seem like their purpose was a waste of fun potentiality. Heck, I still play SA2 just for the Chao Garden.

Don't get me wrong, I played modern sonic games and I do like them...but they don't have that same feeling anymore. The game's purpose changed from that movie feeling when "people start to plan and play out the attack against the bad guy" to just cheeky, good whole family fun where ages from 6 months - 12 years will just be attached to the mascot.

Then again, I was attached to the mascot, because every time I saw the company SEGA...I immediately think of Sonic.

The introduction of Rouge is another reason these games don't have that daring personality anymore. Its great to be cheeky and it has its place (think of the Advance series), but sometimes even mascots get serious (For example, I loveeeee Mario Strikers Charged because its cartoon characters getting serious over the most talked about sport in the history of sports: football). When Rouge the bat was inducted in the Sonic franchise, Sonic Team decided that they would grow a pair and ignored everyone...in which the case, the franchise grew not only by its functionality but its demographic widened (I remembered when one of my sister's friends had SA2, and he liked it because it had more that just running). The problem with the bat is the poor usage of her popping up everywhere without much true explanation

....and for the Retro purists, I didn't forget you, before you start retaliating with the graphicbit series (S1,S2,S3&K,SCD,etc.) may I remind you that I actually played those games and I find them fun...and my favorite is S2...but they had that cheeky factor from the get-go. the closest thing that I can remember for being dark is the game Sonic Spinball (which the gimmick overpowered Sonic's ability to go fast...yet the game did great). These retro games (in my complete, utmost, honest opinion) is just nothing but being simple at its best. You run, you get the bad guy, thats it. No depth, no major outline for what is supposed to happen, and definitively a lack of technicality (in SA2, you had to treasure hunt and you had to shoot the bad guys because it was a part of the plan, it was a part of the story).

With Generations coming up, I feel like this game will have the same success as NSMB. Revamped gameplay, Revamped skins, Revamped everything for everyone. Sonic Generations would be probably the safehouse of games for Sonic Team while they have to come up with something in its entirety.

On the other hand, SA3 (or whatever would it be called) could just take the route of the MMORPG. Everyone chooses something that everyone likes and sticks to it. Much like the fan-game Sonic Arena but in 3D. The only problem would be the amount of maps SEGA has to create for a MMORPG.

I'm just saying.

This is like the longest post I ever did in my account's history.

[Blacklightning]

Negrep? No, but you'll still get a whuppin'. >=(

Also, if there was no fast-acting treasure hunting and no Shoot 'em up massacare in SA2...then we would all complain about how short that game was and wished on the participation on working at an alternate game mode.

That is an absolute load of shit. Even if game length is somehow directly related to the amount of genres it has, it doesn't change the fact that people would still appreciate a good game that's short over a shit game that's long. And that's just the thing - you don't have to completely bastardize the gameplay at arbitary intervals just to extend the game, so if you're honestly implying people will want those BACK if we're given short games (they don't - Colours proved this singlehandedly), mate, you have no fucking idea how wrong you are.

The lack of it on these new, modern ones makes chaos seem like their purpose was a waste of fun potentiality.

Or they could, y'know, be more focused on making Sonic games again. You're more than welcome to buy a Tamagotchi or something if that's your cup of tea, but frankly, the fact that they shoehorned something like that into a platforming game so seperated from the entire point of it, detach it from the rest of the game to the very bare threads of relevance (how does Chao Garden relate to the main game? You bring back Chaos Drives and rings from it. Umm, that's about it), and then have the nerve to make it mandatory for 100% completion is just flabbergasting. I could understand if people wanted a Chao Garden completely seperate from a Sonic game, because at least it would remove the need to grind for Chaos Drives all the time, but the fact that some people want SA3 practically for the sole sake of the Chao Garden just makes me wonder if they even care about the game it's so loosely attached to.

....and for the Retro purists, I didn't forget you, before you start retaliating with the graphicbit series (S1,S2,S3&K,SCD,etc.) may I remind you that I actually played those games and I find them fun...and my favorite is S2...but they had that cheeky factor from the get-go. the closest thing that I can remember for being dark is the game Sonic Spinball (which the gimmick overpowered Sonic's ability to go fast...yet the game did great). These retro games (in my complete, utmost, honest opinion) is just nothing but being simple at its best. You run, you get the bad guy, thats it. No depth, no major outline for what is supposed to happen, and definitively a lack of technicality (in SA2, you had to treasure hunt and you had to shoot the bad guys because it was a part of the plan, it was a part of the story).

Why are you trying to make out a genuinely consistent game as a bad thing? Mish-mashing several unrelated playstyles together Frankenstein-style isn't "technicality" or "depth", it's a pointless genre roulette that has no reason to exist, and you'll be hard-pressed to find a large number of people who will like every individual playstyle in a game within which they are only barely related to each other. It's also extremely disorienting to have to switch between them arbitarily, and people who appreciate running fast (which is, you know, the normal thing to expect from a Sonic game) aren't going to appreciate having to spend long periods of time slowly looking for emerald shards, or getting thrown into mechs and just plain moving slow and clunky (at least Gamma actually controlled somewhat like a Sonic character in spite of the shooting emphasis).

On the other hand, SA3 (or whatever would it be called) could just take the route of the MMORPG. Everyone chooses something that everyone likes and sticks to it. Much like the fan-game Sonic Arena but in 3D. The only problem would be the amount of maps SEGA has to create for a MMORPG.

...I'm sorry, did I seriously just hear you suggest that a numerical sequel not even share the same genre as its predecessors? Why the fuck would you even call it a sequel if it doesn't play anything like the previous games in the series? What kind of nonsense is that?

[novelty]

Negrep? No, but you'll still get a whuppin'. >=(

This is the internet, I'm ready for any psycological cyberbullyin'!

That is an absolute load of shit. Even if game length is somehow directly related to the amount of genres it has, it doesn't change the fact that people would still appreciate a good game that's short over a shit game that's long. And that's just the thing - you don't have to completely bastardize the gameplay at arbitary intervals just to extend the game, so if you're honestly implying people will want those BACK if we're given short games (they don't - Colours proved this singlehandedly), mate, you have no fucking idea how wrong you are.

Do you play Mario? How often do you play the other Mario subgames than the preface definition? Are you exposed to the actual gameplay of Mario, or the spinoffs?

Or they could, y'know, be more focused on making Sonic games again. You're more than welcome to buy a Tamagotchi or something if that's your cup of tea, but frankly, the fact that they shoehorned something like that into a platforming game so seperated from the entire point of it, detach it from the rest of the game to the very bare threads of relevance (how does Chao Garden relate to the main game? You bring back Chaos Drives and rings from it. Umm, that's about it), and then have the nerve to make it mandatory for 100% completion is just flabbergasting. I could understand if people wanted a Chao Garden completely seperate from a Sonic game, because at least it would remove the need to grind for Chaos Drives all the time, but the fact that some people want SA3 practically for the sole sake of the Chao Garden just makes me wonder if they even care about the game it's so loosely attached to.

We have a time and a place for everything...Right now, the classic gameplay is dominating, but sooner or later, people will be butthurt when they hear that another Sonic Hold-boost/Constant Spin Dash marathon comes out.

Why are you trying to make out a genuinely consistent game as a bad thing? Mish-mashing several unrelated playstyles together Frankenstein-style isn't "technicality" or "depth", it's a pointless genre roulette that has no reason to exist, and you'll be hard-pressed to find a large number of people who will like every individual playstyle in a game within which they are only barely related to each other. It's also extremely disorienting to have to switch between them arbitarily, and people who appreciate running fast (which is, you know, the normal thing to expect from a Sonic game) aren't going to appreciate having to spend long periods of time slowly looking for emerald shards, or getting thrown into mechs and just plain moving slow and clunky (at least Gamma actually controlled somewhat like a Sonic character in spite of the shooting emphasis).

Did Nintendo changed the way Mario has been played the past couple of years? Did Nintendo also introduced gimmicks that were a definite part of the game? And, how was it nobody complained about those definite parts?

...I'm sorry, did I seriously just hear you suggest that a numerical sequel not even share the same genre as its predecessors? Why the fuck would you even call it a sequel if it doesn't play anything like the previous games in the series? What kind of nonsense is that?

SA3 is a name. Just like what William Shakespeare wrote for the character Juliet: "if a rose isn't a rose by its name, will it still be as sweet?"

My god, I hate being the troll; but sometimes we need to callous our anuses once in a while. I am an avid fan of the Sonic series, but I don't complain as much as you guys. I lose my tolerance when things get camp...so that the franchise can rub 2 cents together. When the Adventure series played out, apparently the main focus was like a movie/simple game: No true introduction, no true definite answer to everything, and No true way to beat the game. SC probably only won on the success of us when we agreed on one specific way to add a gimmick...now that is over, we should just be groupies instead of game producers.

[Blacklightning]

Do you play Mario? How often do you play the other Mario subgames than the preface definition? Are you exposed to the actual gameplay of Mario, or the spinoffs?

Yes.

I'm sorry, how is this relevant? Mario games don't suffer from genre roulette at all, or at the very least don't generally make it into an entire game so much as a stage gimmick.

We have a time and a place for everything...Right now, the classic gameplay is dominating, but sooner or later, people will be butthurt when they hear that another Sonic Hold-boost/Constant Spin Dash marathon comes out.

Said people are generally idiots, and not in high abundance anyway. Sonic Team shouldn't be compromising the quality of their games when fan demand essentially expects them to.

It's also kinda funny that you suggest classic gameplay is "dominating", considering we've seen all of two games featuring it.

Did Nintendo changed the way Mario has been played the past couple of years?

No.

Did Nintendo also introduced gimmicks that were a definite part of the game?

Introducing a gimmick is a completely different concept to breaking the fucking genre, I'll have you know. Even Mario Sunshine was still a platformer at heart, and the gimmick still accomplished platformer tasks you'd expect from a platforming game in a platforming series like Mario.

And, how was it nobody complained about those definite parts?

Because 1) they had some actual relevance to the game's genre, 2) they complimented Mario's existing gameplay and abiltiies, and 3) they weren't generally shit.

SA3 is a name. Just like what William Shakespeare wrote for the character Juliet: "if a rose isn't a rose by its name, will it still be as sweet?"

So you're completely fine with advancing the series by making a game in a style completely unrelated to it, in effect, being Sonic in name alone. Fantastic. Thanks for proving my assumptions right.

[novelty]

Yes.

I'm sorry, how is this relevant? Mario games don't suffer from genre roulette at all, or at the very least don't generally make it into an entire game so much as a stage gimmick.

Yes they do have a genre roulette, but they didin't suffer from it, and it lasted the entire game. A couple of examples are Mario Galaxy (We need star bits to advance!) and Super Mario Sunshine (WE NEED FLUDD!). Thing is, We don't realize that the shoot 'em ups and Treasure hunting are nothing more than Mario-esque gameplay on speed drive. We are going fast, hopping and destroying stuff, and later on, get the goal we all been waiting for.

Said people are generally idiots, and not in high abundance anyway. Sonic Team shouldn't be compromising the quality of their games when fan demand essentially expects them to.

That's the reason I am not happy with these current games. The fan wants the point A to B factor...and yes, the problem with that is the lack of growth for any other demographic. Its either you like fast stuff, like stuff with cute things, or just like cartoons...that is all, no hardcore FPS interest, no RPG interest, no RTS interest. Just people who like to go fast.

It's also kinda funny that you suggest classic gameplay is "dominating", considering we've seen all of two games featuring it.

It is dominating...just not in the actual game...but by the amount of references to the classic parts of the game (Unleashed Day, Sonic Storybook when the camera is the 2D view [which is rare], and Sonic 4)

No.

Someone needs to relearn their MK history. We never had the Spin ability, and now its a part of it. We have more powerups than just Star, Mushroom, and Fireball. Even Bowser has a speaking voice!

Introducing a gimmick is a completely different concept to breaking the fucking genre, I'll have you know. Even Mario Sunshine was still a platformer at heart, and the gimmick still accomplished platformer tasks you'd expect from a platforming game in a platforming series like Mario.

So, why wouldn't something like "using pieces of machinery" as a voluntary means of gameplay keep the style of Sonic intact? that is all what Tails is, with the influx of small, extra tools

Because 1) they had some actual relevance to the game's genre, 2) they complimented Mario's existing gameplay and abiltiies, and 3) they weren't generally shit.

For 1 and 2 is for the personal conundrums of the style up until it is a purpose for the story. A good example is Tails tracking down the president while Sonic escapes from the police in Sonic Adventure 2. It was relative, It made sense, there was no plan b because of their time restraints. Simple, effective, and right to the point

So you're completely fine with advancing the series by making a game in a style completely unrelated to it, in effect, being Sonic in name alone. Fantastic. Thanks for proving my assumptions right.

Assumptions are just a mere illusion. If the MMORPG idea is true and it did happen, then the gameplay would probably be similar. Like Party missions on many popular MMOs.

Edited July 25, 2011 by Loelita

[Xenos]

This is the internet, I'm ready for any psycological cyberbullyin'!

Do you play Mario? How often do you play the other Mario subgames than the preface definition? Are you exposed to the actual gameplay of Mario, or the spinoffs?

We have a time and a place for everything...Right now, the classic gameplay is dominating, but sooner or later, people will be butthurt when they hear that another Sonic Hold-boost/Constant Spin Dash marathon comes out.

Did Nintendo changed the way Mario has been played the past couple of years? Did Nintendo also introduced gimmicks that were a definite part of the game? And, how was it nobody complained about those definite parts?

SA3 is a name. Just like what William Shakespeare wrote for the character Juliet: "if a rose isn't a rose by its name, will it still be as sweet?"

My god, I hate being the troll; but sometimes we need to callous our anuses once in a while. I am an avid fan of the Sonic series, but I don't complain as much as you guys. I lose my tolerance when things get camp...so that the franchise can rub 2 cents together. When the Adventure series played out, apparently the main focus was like a movie/simple game: No true introduction, no true definite answer to everything, and No true way to beat the game. SC probably only won on the success of us when we agreed on one specific way to add a gimmick...now that is over, we should just be groupies instead of game producers.

I like how you're comparing all of this with Mario.

For one, the reason why Sonic games lack gimmicks and instead focus more on the main game play is simple. Sonic Team is really bad at making multiple gimmicks work, take the Adventure games for one.

In the first Adventure title, The Sonic game play was decent, good even. Tails had Sonic's gameplay with...racing. Okay. Knuckles was treasure hunting?

And this brings me to my first issue, let's talk about Knuckles treasure hunting here.

Okay, so your basically in a sandbox version of the levels, trying to find Emerald shards, not so bad, right? Well yeah, in Adventure 1 it was alright, you could look for any Emerald you wanted without having to look for one at a time. But in Adventure 2, they make it worse. Not only are most of the areas you explore twice as huge, but you can only look for one emerald at a time on the radar. What kind of sense does that make? Not to mention the Hint TV's are no help either. So we can see pretty easily why they dropped this.

Next Big's fishing.

Okay, we already have an issue. Fishing in a Sonic game. I don't know what Sonic Team was smoking, but I sure want some. But they make Big painfully slow so we know we aren't going to have fun in the Hub Worlds already. It isn't like the fishing is any faster, with how strangely you have to control the damn rod, and sometimes it's really difficult to get it in a place where that God Forsaken Frog will nibble at it. The camera didn't help that either, mind you.

Amy and Gamma aren't nearly as bad, I actually can enjoy there levels. Except Amy is slow, way too slow.

Mech shooting in SA2.

Ugh. Not only as many people have mentioned, clunky and boring, but one mech is completely pointless. Why is Tails in this slowass mech? We just saw him running 3 Times faster in the last game, and now he decides to be lazy and use it as some sort of high-tech wheelchair. Not to mention like, 3 of Tails' levels could work with him out of it, from what I've played. And guess what? He's out of the fucking mech in the Chao Garden.

More recent, the Werehog. Which I actually liked quite a bit. Well, In the HD version. But here's some issues I have.

Sometimes because of the lack of a drop Shadow can make critical platforming areas not fun in the slightest. Even then sometimes the non-responsive stretchy arms or the Werehog's crappy jump will kill you first. The battle music isn't bad, I'm just so very tired of hearing it every 30 seconds, right after a tedious platforming area. And sometimes the hordes of Enemies can get plenty of cheap shots. Oh, and quick time events.

And this is why with Generations and most likely after it, Sonic Team are sticking with one gameplay style, and expanding it further until it's as good as it can be. Maybe then when the time comes, they'll switch it up again. But for now, I don't think so.

EDIT: Also, Tails using a piece of machinery that is slower, clunky, and just redundant when he can fly is does not make any sense whatsoever. Especially in SA1, his final boss was MUCH bigger then the Egg-Walker. Yet he kicked it's ass with Tail whips. So Tails really doesn't need the mech at all.

Edited July 25, 2011 by Xenos

[novelty]

I like how you're comparing all of this with Mario.

Well, Mario is our rival...right?

For one, the reason why Sonic games lack gimmicks and instead focus more on the main game play is simple. Sonic Team is really bad at making multiple gimmicks work, take the Adventure games for one.

The first one I can't comment, but the second is slightly untrue. It wouldn't make sense if you are only running around doing nothing but talking to your friends for majority of the gameplay

And this brings me to my first issue, let's talk about Knuckles treasure hunting here.

Okay, so your basically in a sandbox version of the levels, trying to find Emerald shards, not so bad, right? Well yeah, in Adventure 1 it was alright, you could look for any Emerald you wanted without having to look for one at a time. But in Adventure 2, they make it worse. Not only are most of the areas you explore twice as huge, but you can only look for one emerald at a time on the radar. What kind of sense does that make? Not to mention the Hint TV's are no help either. So we can see pretty easily why they dropped this.

You are right on that one...but I find it different than just a race to the goal.

Mech shooting in SA2.

Ugh. Not only as many people have mentioned, clunky and boring, but one mech is completely pointless. Why is Tails in this slowass mech? We just saw him running 3 Times faster in the last game, and now he decides to be lazy and use it as some sort of high-tech wheelchair. Not to mention like, 3 of Tails' levels could work with him out of it, from what I've played. And guess what? He's out of the fucking mech in the Chao Garden.

This part was necessary story-wise. How else can little Miles Prower go through Armor-intensive, top-of-the-line, weaponry with just fur? Obvious realism is Obvious. (Gosh, I hate being that troll)

EDIT: Also, Tails using a piece of machinery that is slower, clunky, and just redundant when he can fly is does not make any sense whatsoever. Especially in SA1, his final boss was MUCH bigger then the Egg-Walker. Yet he kicked it's ass with Tail whips. So Tails really doesn't need the mech at all.

Ditto above. Part of Story. Fur is Soft.

[DC111]

Fur is Soft.

Doesn't stop Sonic.

Or Shadow, or Knuckles, or Rouge... Just sayin'.

[Blacklightning]

Yes they do have a genre roulette, but they didin't suffer from it, and it lasted the entire game. A couple of examples are Mario Galaxy (We need star bits to advance!) and Super Mario Sunshine (WE NEED FLUDD!).

For a genre roulette to exist, a genre change needs to happen somewhere. Galaxy and Sunshine still remain platformers all throughout, and very little in both games does anything to change that.

Thing is, We don't realize that the shoot 'em ups and Treasure hunting are nothing more than Mario-esque gameplay on speed drive. We are going fast, hopping and destroying stuff, and later on, get the goal we all been waiting fore

That's an extreme oversimplification and I'm pretty sure you're even aware of it, too. By that logic you could throw in a UT style FPS and it wouldn't seem out of place. Spoiler: it would seem out of place. It's also worth noting that you're completely wrong about the shooting stages, as the mechs controlled in a completely different manner (ie: ridiculously heavy and clunky), were extremely slow and benefitted from absolutely none of the same gameplay advantages anyone else did. Like jumping on top of things, for sake of example.

That's the reason I am not happy with these current games. The fan wants the point A to B factor...and yes, the problem with that is the lack of growth for any other demographic. Its either you like fast stuff, like stuff with cute things, or just like cartoons...that is all, no hardcore FPS interest, no RPG interest, no RTS interest. Just people who like to go fast.

If you're playing a Sonic game, which is just as a reminder, a game about the fastest thing alive, for any reason other than for the sake of going fast, you should probably just find another franchise to play. Alienating the existing demograph completely just for your sake and the sake of an extremely niche and frankly ignorant demograph is an extremely unreasonable thing to do, and it shouldn't be continued just because the people behind SA1 and 2 were genuinely stupid enough to cram so many unrelated playstyles into one game.

It is dominating...just not in the actual game...but by the amount of references to the classic parts of the game (Unleashed Day, Sonic Storybook when the camera is the 2D view [which is rare], and Sonic 4)

This is exactly what you said just last post, and I quote:

Right now, the classic gameplay is dominating

And what you're just now describing is not gameplay, so either you misworded your argument completely (less likely) or you're going back on your agument because it made you look bad (more likely).

Someone needs to relearn their MK history. We never had the Spin ability, and now its a part of it. We have more powerups than just Star, Mushroom, and Fireball. Even Bowser has a speaking voice!

None of that changes the fact that it's still a fucking platformer that still plays more or less exactly the same as it did when Mario 64 did it. Adding extra moves or powerups doesn't change that, and adding voices certaintly doesn't do a damn thing to it.

So, why wouldn't something like "using pieces of machinery" as a voluntary means of gameplay keep the style of Sonic intact? that is all what Tails is, with the influx of small, extra tools

It wasn't voluntary first of all. Also, I've already explained this but I'm going to have to emphasize it further because you continue to miss the point:

IT DID NOT CHANGE THE GENRE OF THE GAME IN SUNSHINE. THE GAME STILL PLAYED AS A PLATFORMER.

If this was still the case in SA2 as far as Tails is concerned, obviously I wouldn't be complaining, but ST saw fit to completely change just about everything about the way the game plays out in the instance of Tails and Eggman, and while that is bad enough in of itself, most of them were not changes for the better. It's important to maintain a core set of gameplay mechanics if you're looking to establish multiple characters and/or playing styles, and SA2 did not do that. For a good example of this, see TF2.

for 1 and 2 is for the personal conundrums of the style up to the purpose for the story. A good example is Tails tracking down the president while Sonic escapes from the police in Sonic Adventure 2. It was relative, It made sense, there was no plan b because of their time restraints. Simple, effective, and right to the point

A plot explanation does not change the fact that it was out of place on a gameplay basis, and frankly even then it was never really explained why Tails was confined to his mech the entire game when he could do perfectly fine (in many respects, even better) without it.

Assumptions are just a mere illusion. If the MMORPG idea is true and it did happen, then the gameplay would probably be similar. Like Party missions on many popular MMOs.

This is a MMORPG.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ir1NPQ1YVAI&feature=related

This is a platformer.

Remind me again how these two are supposed to be similar.

[novelty]

For a genre roulette to exist, a genre change needs to happen somewhere. Galaxy and Sunshine still remain platformers all throughout, and very little in both games does anything to change that.

Okay.

That's an extreme oversimplification and I'm pretty sure you're even aware of it, too. By that logic you could throw in a UT style FPS and it wouldn't seem out of place. Spoiler: it would seem out of place. It's also worth noting that you're completely wrong about the shooting stages, as the mechs controlled in a completely different manner (ie: ridiculously heavy and clunky), were extremely slow and benefitted from absolutely none of the same gameplay advantages anyone else did. Like jumping on top of things, for sake of example.

Ummm...its not an extreme oversimplification...its a simplification of the process of playing a Sonic game. Speed is the factor in this platform franchise, so introducing another type of gamemode with speed would have to be introduced once in a while

If you're playing a Sonic game, which is just as a reminder, a game about the fastest thing alive, for any reason other than for the sake of going fast, you should probably just find another franchise to play. Alienating the existing demograph completely just for your sake and the sake of an extremely niche and frankly ignorant demograph is an extremely unreasonable thing to do, and it shouldn't be continued just because the people behind SA1 and 2 were genuinely stupid enough to cram so many unrelated playstyles into one game.

Creating games for just your fans is like living your life to become a neighborhood barber...Sooner or later, you will notice your profits will dwindle as the people who are interested find something thats faster, cooler, or just different slightly.

And what you're just now describing is not gameplay, so either you misworded your argument completely (less likely) or you're going back on your agument because it made you look bad (more likely).

I would go for the latter...I hate getting negrepped.

None of that changes the fact that it's still a fucking platformer that still plays more or less exactly the same as it did when Mario 64 did it. Adding extra moves or powerups doesn't change that, and adding voices certaintly doesn't do a damn thing to it.

Yes, the fact I have to fly to specific places, Used a different move other than the ground pound, and the lack of coins made the game different. Probably the ONLY time it ever felt like Mario 64 is those special classic stages where you are just Mario. No powerups, no bits to collect, only coins, and ground pounding Goombas

It wasn't voluntary first of all. Also, I've already explained this but I'm going to have to emphasize it further because you continue to miss the point:

IT DID NOT CHANGE THE GENRE OF THE GAME IN SUNSHINE. THE GAME STILL PLAYED AS A PLATFORMER.

If this was still the case in SA2 as far as Tails is concerned, obviously I wouldn't be complaining, but ST saw fit to completely change just about everything about the way the game plays out in the instance of Tails and Eggman, and while that is bad enough in of itself, most of them were not changes for the better. It's important to maintain a core set of gameplay mechanics if you're looking to establish multiple characters and/or playing styles, and SA2 did not do that. For a good example of this, see TF2.

A plot explanation does not change the fact that it was out of place on a gameplay basis, and frankly even then it was never really explained why Tails was confined to his mech the entire game when he could do perfectly fine (in many respects, even better) without it.

This is probably the reason I resorted to a MMORPG

This is a MMORPG.

This is a platformer.

Remind me again how these two are supposed to be similar.

This is MapleStory An 2D Sidescrolling MMORPG platformer

[Blacklightning]

Ummm...its not an extreme oversimplification...its a simplification of the process of playing a Sonic game. Speed is the factor in this platform franchise, so introducing another type of gamemode with speed would have to be introduced once in a while

Except none of the playstyles in SA2 besides Sonic and Shadow's are oriented around speed. Hell, SA1 still had problems with this too, as far as Big and Amy were concerned, but were generous enough to ensure everyone else at least moved fast.

Creating games for just your fans is like living your life to become a neighborhood barber...Sooner or later, you will notice your profits will dwindle as the people who are interested find something thats faster, cooler, or just different slightly.

Then it's a good thing I didn't imply that directly, right? Bear in mind that demographs aren't strictly limited to hardcore fans of the series in the first place. On a little side note, I would actually personally prefer that ST didn't listen to their fans and instead make games that are objectively good of their own merits, if only for the reason that many, many fan demands (including the subject of this thread) have very negative repercussions that a lot of people don't realize until it's in hindsight. Case in point, ShTH.

Yes, the fact I have to fly to specific places, Used a different move other than the ground pound, and the lack of coins made the game different. Probably the ONLY time it ever felt like Mario 64 is those special classic stages where you are just Mario. No powerups, no bits to collect, only coins, and ground pounding Goombas

Oh for the love of...

You are using elements of the game not inherent to platfomers to disprove the notion that the stated Mario games aren't platformers, which is an absolutely gobsmackingly ridiulous claim to make. I hope you're aware of that, because if not that's so sad I think I just might cry.

Also, read it. You seem to be a little confused on just what exactly a platforming game is.

This is MapleStory An 2D Sidescrolling MMORPG platformer

A grind RPG in 2D perspective is still a grind RPG. Knowing what you're like at this stage, it's probably important to remind you that Sonic games generally aren't grind RPGs, even that one Bioware game that was an actual RPG by genre.

[novelty]

I do understand what a platformer is...and Tails/Eggman still had to hop on ledges and platforms to continue.

Except none of the playstyles in SA2 besides Sonic and Shadow's are oriented around speed. Hell, SA1 still had problems with this too, as far as Big and Amy were concerned, but were generous enough to ensure everyone else at least moved fast.

When something is "Moving Fast", It is implied that it is fast through your personal preference. I think the Mech. gameplay was "fast, in your face" explosions.

A grind RPG in 2D perspective is still a grind RPG. Knowing what you're like at this stage, it's probably important to remind you that Sonic games generally aren't grind RPGs, even that one Bioware game that was an actual RPG by genre.

I liked how you specified just right when I answered your question whole heartily. A grind RPG is just a different type of RPG. Need For Speed World is an RPG...and I don't see it as daily grind. I see it as fun racing. Why can't a Sonic MMO be like that, eh?

[Blacklightning]

I do understand what a platformer is...and Tails/Eggman still had to hop on ledges and platforms to continue.

That's about the broadest sense of the word platforming you can possibly get, and frankly that's just not what the platforming genre is about. Platformers are run-and-jump focused, so by your logic every single playable game in videogaming history that has a jump button is automatically a platformer, even games that don't have any defined platforms. At this point I'm starting to get the impression you're just taking the piss, so forgive me if I find it difficult to take your claims seriously.

When something is "Moving Fast", It is implied that it is fast through your personal preference. I think the Mech. gameplay was "fast, in your face" explosions.

...but still completely different to speed in the movement sense, which is, again, the entire point of a Sonic game.

I liked how you specified just right when I answered your question whole heartily. A grind RPG is just a different type of RPG. Need For Speed World is an RPG...and I don't see it as daily grind. I see it as fun racing. Why can't a Sonic MMO be like that, eh?

If you're going to jump down my throat for not stating the obvious, do note that you only just now removed the "RPG" prefix from "MMORPG", and that you were genuinely presenting the impression that you were, in fact, after an RPG the whole time. If you weren't, why did you continue to argue on those terms as if you were?

In any case, regardless of which way you spin it, people at least expect a numerical sequel to have a large amount in common with the games that spawned it, and making it massively multiplayer right out of the blue, besides fixing exactly none of the issues you have previously stated, is in the Big Lipped Alligator Moment leagues of relevance to previous titles, because even if it is presented in the same genre it still plays very little alike because of the way external influence affects the game. Were the statement just "I want a Sonic MMO", then hell, fine, I have no reason to object, but sequels are supposed to build onto the previous games they're based off, not throw everyone for a loop and do something completely different. As long as we're still talking Mario examples, note the differences between Galaxy 1 and 2 (read: relatively little besides levels, most for the better).

[novelty]

That's about the broadest sense of the word platforming you can possibly get, and frankly that's just not what the platforming genre is about. Platformers are run-and-jump focused, so by your logic every single playable game in videogaming history that has a jump button is automatically a platformer, even games that don't have any defined platforms. At this point I'm starting to get the impression you're just taking the piss, so forgive me if I find it difficult to take your claims seriously.

Woah, just because something has jump doesn't constitute platforming. When you play a platform game, the main movement objective is to get on to other platforms to advance to the next stage. Tails/Eggman are doing that. Mech. Shooting is ST's way of making a Contra/Mario platformer in 3D

...but still completely different to speed in the movement sense, which is, again, the entire point of a Sonic game.

As long as I am pratically moving forward consistently, then I constitue it as moving fast. Maybe they should picked up the speed a little, but imo, I find it quite normal for those type of machines to run fast and to take time with each step.

If you're going to jump down my throat for not stating the obvious, do note that you only just now removed the "RPG" prefix from "MMORPG", and that you were genuinely presenting the impression that you were, in fact, after an RPG the whole time. If you weren't, why did you continue to argue on those terms as if you were?

In any case, regardless of which way you spin it, people at least expect a numerical sequel to have a large amount in common with the games that spawned it, and making it massively multiplayer right out of the blue, besides fixing exactly none of the issues you have previously stated, is in the Big Lipped Alligator Moment leagues of relevance to previous titles, because even if it is presented in the same genre it still plays very little alike because of the way external influence affects the game. Were the statement just "I want a Sonic MMO", then hell, fine, I have no reason to object, but sequels are supposed to build onto the previous games they're based off, not throw everyone for a loop and do something completely different. As long as we're still talking Mario examples, note the differences between Galaxy 1 and 2 (read: relatively little besides levels, most for the better).

What constitutes an RPG? When your playing a role. That's It. No Medieval Stuff necessary. If you are controlling a character in a part of a world; you are playing a role. The role can be anything (including running around).

[Blacklightning]

Woah, just because something has jump doesn't constitute platforming. When you play a platform game, the main movement objective is to get on to other platforms to advance to the next stage.

Missing the point. Platforming focus was the key word in case you missed it, and you'd be hard pressed to compare mech platforming to Sonic's or Knux's in the grand scheme of things. It also doesn't change the fact that they play nothing alike.

The rest of your post is more logical fallacies and intentional vaugeness that continue to miss the point as usual, and it's getting really old so I'm just going to stop trying to reason with you before we come full circle again. This is ridiculous.

[Xenos]

Woah, just because something has jump doesn't constitute platforming. When you play a platform game, the main movement objective is to get on to other platforms to advance to the next stage. Tails/Eggman are doing that. Mech. Shooting is ST's way of making a Contra/Mario platformer in 3D

As long as I am pratically moving forward consistently, then I constitue it as moving fast. Maybe they should picked up the speed a little, but imo, I find it quite normal for those type of machines to run fast and to take time with each step.

What constitutes an RPG? When your playing a role. That's It. No Medieval Stuff necessary. If you are controlling a character in a part of a world; you are playing a role. The role can be anything (including running around).

Except the mech was clunky and slow as I said before, not to mention Contra's style of shooting at things is much more fast paced. Mario AND Contra both in actuality are faster then the mechs basically. And, fun.

This makes no sense. Moving forward consistently can easily be you walking casually. By your logic when I walk I'm moving fast? And the mech's wouldn't need to take time with each step if they weren't there in the first place. As I said, Tails beat the final boss in SA1 alone. Which you clearly ignored. He dodged missiles, and avoided shockwaves, and he tail whips the mech until it's down, then proceed to jig on Eggmand's head. So he clearly could have done the things he did inSA2 without the mech. Realistic or not.

But here's the thing. Sonic is a platformer. Not an RPG. The difference here is RPG's don't have you getting to Point A-B, they have you do pointless quests to get shitty rewards. Sonic isn't just running around, he's a Speed-Platformer. And with the Series just getting out of identity crisis I really hope they don't try an RPG for a while.

[Scar]

Woah, just because something has jump doesn't constitute platforming. When you play a platform game, the main movement objective is to get on to other platforms to advance to the next stage. Tails/Eggman are doing that. Mech. Shooting is ST's way of making a Contra/Mario platformer in 3D

[ChikaBoing]

Alot of people say Adventure 3 won't be as good, cause not the same people are working on it. This only holds true with the Team of the first Adventure(but even half f them still worked on later Sonic games)...but not the second one, which then also worked on Heroes,Shaodw and Nights 2.

[T-Min]

Also, if there was no fast-acting treasure hunting and no Shoot 'em up massacare in SA2...then we would all complain about how short that game was and wished on the participation on working at an alternate game mode.

...You're implying that SA2 wasn't short in the first place. The main story mode only takes, like, 5 hours to beat. Also, if there weren't mech shooting and treasure hunting, then there probably would have been a lot more Sonic stages, making the game better. Oh, wait...

That's the reason I am not happy with these current games. The fan wants the point A to B factor...and yes, the problem with that is the lack of growth for any other demographic. Its either you like fast stuff, like stuff with cute things, or just like cartoons...that is all, no hardcore FPS interest, no RPG interest, no RTS interest. Just people who like to go fast.

...YOU...*sigh* Okay, okay, T-Man. Get a hold of yourself... *deep breath in and out* Now...tell me this...What would a person who doesn't like platformers be doing playing a freaking Sonic game in the first place? Even if someone was interested in the game thanks to the mech shooting or treasure hunting, they'd still have to play the styles they don't like to get to the parts they find good.

Genre roulette is not a good thing. It does not increase interest in a game for either fans or non-fans. All it can do is either just be there or detract from a game, since you have to wade through genres that you didn't come to play to get to the one that you DID come to play. This is not just directed at Loelita. This is directed at everyone in support of it. Don't get me wrong, it's not that it can't be enjoyable - heck, I enjoy it for the most part. It's that it can alienate fans wanting a purely Sonic experience, especially when that's what they were expecting. You buy a Sonic game to run fast and do some platforming, not to hunt for emerald shards or shoot things in a mech. Again, it can be fun. That doesn't mean it should be there. This is my final word on the subject. Constantly having to argue this point across in this thread is getting extremely tiring.

Edited July 26, 2011 by T-Man

[Dr. Crusher]

....and for the Retro purists, I didn't forget you, before you start retaliating with the graphicbit series (S1,S2,S3&K,SCD,etc.) may I remind you that I actually played those games and I find them fun...and my favorite is S2...but they had that cheeky factor from the get-go. the closest thing that I can remember for being dark is the game Sonic Spinball (which the gimmick overpowered Sonic's ability to go fast...yet the game did great). These retro games (in my complete, utmost, honest opinion) is just nothing but being simple at its best. You run, you get the bad guy, thats it. No depth, no major outline for what is supposed to happen, and definitively a lack of technicality (in SA2, you had to treasure hunt and you had to shoot the bad guys because it was a part of the plan, it was a part of the story).

[Nintendoga]

BUMP

After asking this question in a certain skype chat, many people *you know who you are...* have agreed that people only want SA3 because of Chao Gardens, and the fact that Nostalgia lets them believe that SA2 was the last good sonic game, when in fact, it was not.

Edited September 30, 2011 by Nintendoga