Why do people want Sonic Adventure 3?

[lounge]

I'm guessing you're not looking forward to playing as Classic Sonic either?

Well classic sonic's gameplay does look better than moderns because of the physics and all, but I'm really getting sick of all this 2d stuff as well. I prefer to play an actual 3d game.

If Sonic's gameplay from the Sonic Adventure games is what people really want (minus the treasure hunting, mechs shooting, fishing, etc) then Sega could just bring that gameplay style back but it don't have to be called SA3 to do that.

Well to me, SA3 is just a prototype title. To me SA3 implies improving the flow and game design of SA2, just like what SA2 did with SA1. For example If SA2 was able to have a fun multiplayer, SA3's would have to be better. If the adventure games were able to take risks like adding in so many genres of music for all the characters, SA3 would have to use genres that weren't used in past games to give it its own fresh feel. Be innovative and original and better instead of relying on past material. (Mario Galaxy games are a good example)

What I didn't like about Heroes was even though it was made by the same team behind SA2, and their intentions were to introduce sonic to a new generation, they really downgraded all the hardwork they did on SA2 (grinding, quality of sound, character models, mulitplayer, physics, writing). It shouldn't be like that. The Zelda games are a good example of improving the mechanics with each new game (except in the sound dept.)

That's why even though Heroes is a sequel to SA2, nobody says "Well it's basically SA3, or basically SA2"

SA3 to me means everything better and even more original and risky than SA2.

[Kuzu]

Well classic sonic's gameplay does look better than moderns because of the physics and all, but I'm really getting sick of all this 2d stuff as well. I prefer to play an actual 3d game.

Ya know 2D is where it all started.

Well to me, SA3 is just a prototype title. To me SA3 implies improving the flow and game design of SA2, just like what SA2 did with SA1. For example If SA2 was able to have a fun multiplayer, SA3's would have to be better. If the adventure games were able to take risks like adding in so many genres of music for all the characters, SA3 would have to use genres that weren't used in past games to give it its own fresh feel. Be innovative and original and better instead of relying on past material. (Mario Galaxy games are a good example)

You mean like Sonic 06

Nah but I agree, Heroes was really a step down from Sa2.

But yeah like Sonicfan, said if they want to do all of that for a third Adventue game, I won't stop them. I just want a 3D game that properly blends speed and platforming in a way that makes it fun.

[Chibinuva]

I honestly think Sonic 06 and Shadow the Hedgehog are both similar to adventure gameplay (more the latter, aside from guns and vehicles,) but I really would like a SA3. They should basically just bring back sonic adventure gameplay, with multiple characters and different storylines, as well as better level design, where the areas are more open and allow you to roam around in them or speed through them.

[Xenos]

I wasn't the one who said anything about Unleashed.

Its only bullshit to you because you don't agree with me. You don't see me calling your argument bullshit.

Ok, City Escape is one stage, one stage doesn't make the game instantly better, especially since City Escape only has that one area of openness before its right back to its shallow 2D platforming. Chemical Plant is even worse, I saw the entire playthrough in that leak from a few days ago, the 3D sections were completely straight lines, alt. paths or not; I don't care what anyone says, you should not be going in a straight line for half of a level.

I admit City Escape is better than what came before, but that doesn't mean its perfect, there's still room for much improvement.

How many platform games you know that give you a drifting and a nitro boosting maneuver? Answer: Not as much as in racing games.

Needing to use the boost sparingly doesn't mean the shitty level design is gone its just hidden behind shallow 2D platforming, I don't care what anyone says, jumping on floating platforms in the air in a Sonic game, does not count as platforming, and if it is it sure as hell is boring.

You're overly optimistic, I understand Generations looks awesome, because it does, but think about what was sacrificed to get to this point? We've lost crucial moves and level design that made Sonic who he is in favor of pretty much ditching the platforming aspect altogether and mostly focusing on just speed and nothing else, you can't focus exclusively on one aspect of Sonic and expect it to do good.

You seriously don't believe that if ST actually tried to build off of what they did in Sa1 over the years, that Sonic would less popular than he is now?

Okay, I noticed something here.

You, and many others say that the Unleashed Gameplay isn't as great as what we had, and keep saying "Needs more improvement, Adventure games did it better" etc.

Okay, but why would you want to force Sega back into the Adventure Gameplay all over again? Isn't the reason they moved on from it is because they felt that it was time for a change to refine Sonic once again?

I mean, nobody was complaining when the Classics went to 3D. We were forgiving then because it was their first try. In 2008 we liked the Daytime Gameplay, and after a while it somehow "Lost it's appeal"?

You are basically saying that because you liked the Adventure Gameplay better, it will always be better, and therefore, Sega should bring it back to be improved on.

Why can't we do this for the Unleashed Formula as well? Why can't the Unleashed Formula be improved on? The only thing I see here is complaints that's happened in past games in the Unleashed formula, and a few things in Generations.

I mean, what's a Sonic game to you? I thought Sonic games were speed platforming, right? That's what the Classics are, they got refined to near perfection. That's what the Adventure games could have been, the gameplay got progressively worse after Heroes, And hell, Unleashed is probably the fastest speed platforming in the series.

Calling Unleashed platforming boring is rather strange considering the Classics had their moments of boring as hell platforming parts. (I'm looking at you, Hill Top.) But after that, you'd get right back to the speed. Just like in, HEY! The Unleashed Formula games! So what was your point there? And are you saying Jumping Platform to Platform isn't a Sonic game? Hmmm...

The Classics had you jumping platforms.

The Adventure games had you too..

So why are are you saying that?

And can we please realize that you're saying that "City Escape is one stage!!!" Or, "Chemical Plant is straight lines, Alternate Paths or not!"

Yes, City Escape is one stage, want another 2? Rooftop Run and Seaside Hill. From what snippets of Gameplay I've seen, Seaside Hill has alternate paths with rails, and the rails have level that you can use all around that rail section as well, not to mention the Water Platforming means you have to use the boost wisely.

Rooftop Run, I noticed there's a Jump in a part of the level, you have the choice of going ontop of the roof, or falling to the ground below, I'm pretty sure that means it's a significant alternate route. Not to mention Homing Attack chaining is done in very open areas.

And what do you mean Chemical Plant is straight lines? That's kind of what it was at first, even Classic Sonic's CP can prove this simply. His is straight lines with loops and waves and alternate routes. Modern Sonic is doing nothing wrong here, he's just keeping the essence of the stage in 3D.

And don't act like we've explored every inch of the stages ourselves, this is just speculation on our parts, so I'm not calling foul on anything except the "Linear" argument because it really is the same thing we got from the Classics and Adventure games in some form. Sonic Adventure 2 had it's linear stages such as City Escape, and I already said Generations proved it's CE to be greater.

And Adventure 1? Are you going to tell me Speed Highway wasn't linear? You could literally put Modern Sonic in it's stage design and it'd probably work rather well. Emerald Coast was linear, believe it or not. It gave you the illusion it wasn't because you could maybe grab a few items if you moved a few inches or so off the main path. And did I mention the Main Path is the only path? So yeah.

I just pointed out 3 stages using the Adventure formula that are linear, while also pointing out 3 Stages so far Generations seems to make not so linear.

How is the 2D sections "Shallow Platforming"? What the hell IS Shallow Platforming? I mean, it's no different from Classic Sonic's sections except you have more moves to use, not to mention all the stage gimmicks in the 2D sections that are fitting for it's stage. So I see no reason to call it Shallow rather then support the "Boost to Win" Argument.

I put that last part in bold because I can shoot those same words back at you.

Do you honestly believe that it's impossible to improve the Unleashed Formula, and surpass the Adventure Gameplay? Generations is trying, why stop here to waste time trying to perfect something that is in the past?

[Tornado]

Generations is trying, why stop here to waste time trying to perfect something that is in the past?

Is that a serious question? Because the answer is pretty obvious to me and I haven't even been paying that close attention to this debate.

Edited September 30, 2011 by TGaP Tornado

[Xenos]

Is that a serious question? Because the answer is pretty obvious to me and I haven't even been paying that close attention to this debate.

Well, sure! Of course you want them to keep going with the Unleashed Formula!

*Trollfaec*

[eXtaticus]

Why do people want Sonic Adventure 3?

Because they want to see Adventure-style gameplay, storylines and soundtracks return in a form that doesn't completely suck, and for the game to show a natural evolutionary progression of the ideas presented in the original Dreamcast duo.

That's basically it.

[Kuzu]

Ugh, I just did this on the sega forums, and now I gotta do it here too? Better finish what I started.

Okay, but why would you want to force Sega back into the Adventure Gameplay all over again? Isn't the reason they moved on from it is because they felt that it was time for a change to refine Sonic once again?

No we want to go back to Adventure style because it never had a chance to take off, and even as flawed as it was, was still the closest experience to the 2D games that the 3D games ever had, that's why we want it.

I mean, nobody was complaining when the Classics went to 3D. We were forgiving then because it was their first try. In 2008 we liked the Daytime Gameplay, and after a while it somehow "Lost it's appeal"?

Because Adventure was actually pretty damn close to the genesis games in terms of level design, with Unleashed it was fun at first I admit, but three games with the same style and barely anything has improved level design wise; You're still moving on incredibly linear stages with little to do rather than having Platforming with speed incorporated into its design.

You are basically saying that because you liked the Adventure Gameplay better, it will always be better, and therefore, Sega should bring it back to be improved on.

No I'm saying that its the closest to what Sonic is actually about and I would like to see it expanded upon.

Why can't we do this for the Unleashed Formula as well? Why can't the Unleashed Formula be improved on? The only thing I see here is complaints that's happened in past games in the Unleashed formula, and a few things in Generations.

Because Generations is three years after Unleashed came out and there's been little improvement to it, we have still have bland 3D sections, boring 2D platforming and a game breaking boost. Frankly its run its course and I would like see something different.

I mean, what's a Sonic game to you? I thought Sonic games were speed platforming, right? That's what the Classics are, they got refined to near perfection. That's what the Adventure games could have been, the gameplay got progressively worse after Heroes, And hell, Unleashed is probably the fastest speed platforming in the series.

A Sonic game to me is a platforming game with speed incorporated and level design to accommodate both. Unleashed is a platform game trying to be a racing game with very little platforming thrown in between, platforming which breaks the flow entirely.

Calling Unleashed platforming boring is rather strange considering the Classics had their moments of boring as hell platforming parts. (I'm looking at you, Hill Top.) But after that, you'd get right back to the speed. Just like in, HEY! The Unleashed Formula games! So what was your point there? And are you saying Jumping Platform to Platform isn't a Sonic game? Hmmm...

No I'm saying the proper use of your speed in the platforming segments are what make a Sonic game, Unleashed doesn't do that, its nothing but running forward with few obstacles thrown your way. I admit the Classics had their moments of slow, boring platforming, but they're still better than Unleashed's platforming segments. Let's look at good ole Marble Zone shall we?

Now compare this to Unleashed's sections of platforming which are mostly floating blocks and nothing else.

The Classics had you jumping platforms.

The Adventure games had you too..

They also had you rolling off of hills, and gaining speed for loops.

So why are are you saying that?

Because Unleashed's levels are mostly running forward and nothing else.

Yes, City Escape is one stage, want another 2? Rooftop Run and Seaside Hill. From what snippets of Gameplay I've seen, Seaside Hill has alternate paths with rails, and the rails have level that you can use all around that rail section as well, not to mention the Water Platforming means you have to use the boost wisely.

If you're not on a completely flat portion of a level, what's the point of the boost? If that's the case it may as well be gone altogether.

And what do you mean Chemical Plant is straight lines? That's kind of what it was at first, even Classic Sonic's CP can prove this simply. His is straight lines with loops and waves and alternate routes. Modern Sonic is doing nothing wrong here, he's just keeping the essence of the stage in 3D

.

The original and Classic chemical plant had launch pads, the yellow blocks for platforming, the traveling tubes and the moving platforms above the water...all of those are missing from the Modern version, I admit Chemical Plant is a fast paced stage, but it it had a lot more than just straight lines and speed boosters.

And don't act like we've explored every inch of the stages ourselves, this is just speculation on our parts, so I'm not calling foul on anything except the "Linear" argument because it really is the same thing we got from the Classics and Adventure games in some form. Sonic Adventure 2 had it's linear stages such as City Escape, and I already said Generations proved it's CE to be greater.

I did say City Escape is better than anything before it, did I not?

The Adventure game are one thing, but did you just call the Classic games, linear? are you that ignorant?

Does this look linear in the slightest?

And Adventure 1? Are you going to tell me Speed Highway wasn't linear? You could literally put Modern Sonic in it's stage design and it'd probably work rather well. Emerald Coast was linear, believe it or not. It gave you the illusion it wasn't because you could maybe grab a few items if you moved a few inches or so off the main path. And did I mention the Main Path is the only path? So yeah.

So yeah what? I never said Adventure was perfect, I said it could be improved, all I was saying it controls more like a Classic game than Unleashed ever did.

I just pointed out 3 stages using the Adventure formula that are linear, while also pointing out 3 Stages so far Generations seems to make not so linear.

You want a cookie?

How is the 2D sections "Shallow Platforming"? What the hell IS Shallow Platforming? I mean, it's no different from Classic Sonic's sections except you have more moves to use, not to mention all the stage gimmicks in the 2D sections that are fitting for it's stage. So I see no reason to call it Shallow rather then support the "Boost to Win" Argument.

BEcause floating platforms above a bottomless pit are not the way Sonic games should work, that type of platforming is so damn basic it should be illegal, no platform game nowadays has just floating platforms and call it day, and neither should Sonic.

Do you honestly believe that it's impossible to improve the Unleashed Formula, and surpass the Adventure Gameplay? Generations is trying, why stop here to waste time trying to perfect something that is in the past?

Nothing shown has made me believe it is possible, this is the third game with this style and almost nothing has improved; We still have straight lines instead of actual 3D platforming, The boost is still an overpowered move that robs you of your control(which is annying because it worked so much better in Colors), and the platforming that is there is shallow and it breaks the flow of the game.

Adventure actually attempts to blend the two together, and while it didn't do it as well as the Classics, it didn't really get a chance to develop because it was axed as quickly as it came, if we actually expanded and build on that, I'm pretty sure a much better game than Generations would be born.

And I just realized how much like Diogenes I sound, irony thy name is Shadic.

Edited September 30, 2011 by Shadic93

[Scar]

Why do people want Sonic Adventure 3?

Because they want to see Adventure-style gameplay, storylines and soundtracks return in a form that doesn't completely suck, and for the game to show a natural evolutionary progression of the ideas presented in the original Dreamcast duo.

That's basically it.

The game doesn't have to be called SA3 to do this.

Its a name. If you want to talk about gameplay and story, refer to them directly. Waltzing around crying " Sonic Adventure 3" won't do jack shit. In fact, crying for SA3 will result in Generations/Unleashed-type game being made, with SA3 thrown on it to shift millions of units.

SA3 =/= game that develops ideas presented by SA1 (Fuck SA2, its SA1 but worse in every way).

SA3 = name = profit.

Or did you forget the bullshit SEGA pulled with Sonic 4.

Edited September 30, 2011 by Scar

[Indigo Rush]

Let's have both. Slower-paced Adventure titles and Faster-paced Modern titles. I mean, we already have a 2D equivalent for this balance with the Classics and Rush, just do it with the 3D games.

Or something.

Just calm your tits, everyone.

[Scar]

Let's have both. Slower-paced Adventure titles and Faster-paced Modern titles. I mean, we already have a 2D equivalent for this balance with the Classics and Rush, just do it with the 3D games.

Or something.

Just calm your tits, everyone.

Or we could have them both in 1 game! What a revelation!

And Classic level design is far too impractical to replicate in 3D 100%, or even 90%. Stop crying about it. SA1 is about as close as it gets.

[Diogenes]

Sega cannot actually make a million games so each fan gets exactly what they think they want.

And Classic level design is far too impractical to replicate in 3D 100%, or even 90%. Stop crying about it. SA1 is about as close as it gets.

Bull. Edited September 30, 2011 by Diogenes

[Indigo Rush]

Or we could have them both in 1 game! What a revelation!

And Classic level design is far too impractical to replicate in 3D 100%, or even 90%. Stop crying about it. SA1 is about as close as it gets.

I'm... not the one crying here.

I really don't give a lick if we ever get Adventure 3. I'm just offering a solution. And you're making assumptions on what I mean by "Classic in 3D," by the way.

Sega cannot actually make a million games so each fan gets exactly what they think they want.

But can they make 4? Actually, make it 2, because Dimps is the one developing Sonic 4 and the Rush series.

Edited September 30, 2011 by Indigo Rush

[Scar]

Bull.

No

Level design needs to accomodate the shift to the 3rd dimension. See those level maps Shadic put up? Yeah, I think you'll agree that it cannot be 100% replicated in 3D.

My estimates reckon 80-85% is doable. Certain physics tricks you could do in the classics wouldn't work entirely correctly in 3D. They would require at the very least, a 2D veiwpoint to allow for the precision. Well, unless you want all the stages to be like SSX levels, which wouldn't work very well for a platformer. Rolling and all that jazz is completely doable, just needs enough polish so that it doesn't fuck you over.

[Kuzu]

You know what screw this post, I've got one person I'm arguing with, I don't need another.

Edited September 30, 2011 by Shadic93

[Indigo Rush]

No

Level design needs to accomodate the shift to the 3rd dimension. See those level maps Shadic put up? Yeah, I think you'll agree that it cannot be 100% replicated in 3D.

My estimates reckon 80-85% is doable. Certain physics tricks you could do in the classics wouldn't work entirely correctly in 3D. They would require at the very least, a 2D veiwpoint to allow for the precision. Well, unless you want all the stages to be like SSX levels, which wouldn't work very well for a platformer. Rolling and all that jazz is completely doable, just needs enough polish so that it doesn't fuck you over.

*cough*

[Raithos]

Um, becuase 2 was amazing, and it doesn't feel complete?

[eXtaticus]

SA3 =/= game that develops ideas presented by SA1 (Fuck SA2, its SA1 but worse in every way).

SA3 = name = profit.

I view the whole "Sonic Adventure 3" concept as an idealised and theoretical view of what a perfect Sonic Adventure progression or sequel would be like; the name is representative of the idea. Of course, the resultant game - if it happens - doesn't have to be called "Sonic Adventure 3", but it would be nice if it had a title that differentiated it from the Unleashed-styled games and one that possessed connotations with the other two Adventure titles - and you're talking as if expanded profitability for Sega isn't a bonus on top of that.

Edited September 30, 2011 by eXtaticus

[sonfan1984]

Um, becuase 2 was amazing, and it doesn't feel complete?

It was complete atleast the Shadow the Hedgehog game finished Shadow's story from SA2. I dunno where they could continue off from SA2 after that.

[Kuzu]

It was complete atleast the Shadow the Hedgehog game finished Shadow's story from SA2. I dunno where they could continue off from SA2 after that.

Retcon? I wouldn't be against it.

[Dark Qiviut]

Retcon? I wouldn't be against it.

I'm against it because rebooting is absolutely pointless. If anything, referencing the past games in the storylines while continuing to work from the SU-Day format is a better idea.

[eXtaticus]

Retcon? I wouldn't be against it.

Everything from Sonic Herpes onwards totally erased from canon? Yes please. Why? Well, I'll just re-post a newly relevant piece that I wrote in the topic:

If Sega were indeed hell-bent on rebooting the franchise, it would only be advisable for them to do it from a certain point; though the classic titles and the subsequent Adventure series all have storylines that follow on from eachother consecutively and sensibly, (sans the gap where the two sub-series join, which should, in fact, be filled by the coming episodes of Sonic 4) Sonic Heroes and its canonical sequels were, in themselves, massive destructions of all of the newly-introduced character backstories and developments that were brought about in the Adventure series - from instating Shadow's hugely irritating amnesia and his subsequent lack of any real or discernible character traits other than angst, to Tails' return to being a submissively dependant yes-man, to Knuckles being stripped of any kind of mention of his enigmatic Echidnan ancestors or the Master Emerald that they entrusted him with, to Sonic himself being reduced to the emotionally under-complex and hideously joyfully uncool stereotypical "super-duper-hero" that he was never supposed to be, Sonic Heroes and everything that came after it (barring the self-erasing Sonic '06, of course) should be the only parts of the storyline that should be gotten rid of, if any at all have to be.

No point in reiterating it any other way now, is there?

[Kuzu]

I'm against it because rebooting is absolutely pointless. If anything, referencing the past games in the storylines while continuing to work from the SU-Day format is a better idea.

I was talking mainly about Heroes-06.

[sonfan1984]

Erasing everything from canon starting from Sonic Heroes and even Sonic Unleashed and Sonic Colors? Fuck that shit.

Edited September 30, 2011 by sonfan1984

[Kuzu]

Erasing everying from canon starting from Sonic Heroes and even Sonic Unleashed and Sonic Colors? Fuck that shit.

From Heroes-06 dude, getting rid of that.