Why do people want Sonic Adventure 3?

[Blacklightning]

You baisicly just said.

I cant think of anything else to say so I'm gonna insult your post with a pointless sarcastic comment

So said the pot to the kettle. Believe it or not that was a legitimate counterpoint, so you're doing yourself no favours by completely refusing to address it.

Well actually it was a response to a comment I saw on youtube. And if you dont believe that it's a popular request among fans then just look at

this video and take a look at the top comment.

I'm not saying everybody want's it but it's obviously a popular request.

Using a sample size of exactly one youtube video is really not a good way to gauge popularity, especially considering youtube commenters are notorious for being some of the most retarded people on the entire face of the internet. Remember that these are the same people who somehow expected to boycott Sonic 4 by buying Sonic 1 instead.

Anyway I'm pretty sure many people enjoyed the replay value it brought because they continue to ask for it

I could just as easily say I'm more convinced is because most SA3 fans are nostaliga-blinded tools who would accept anything force-fed to them had it been given the same name, but that would be putting words into their mouths just as much as you are right now.

and if it and while it may have some flaws that does not mean it couldn't be polished up the next time.

Most of the flaws everyone has been bringing up amounts to the fact that Chao are completely irrelevant to the game it's attached to, so no amount of polish would really act as a compromise at all. A big-lipped-alligator-moment of a pet sim is still out of place in a platformer no matter how much you try to justify it or how good it happens to be of its own right. Edited October 1, 2011 by Blacklightning

[Eastwood]

That's not a point in your favour, considering most of them make infinetly more sense than this. I mean, when I think about ways to add replay value to a game, I definently know that my first thought won't be "hey guys, let's tack a fucking virtual pet sim onto the game for no real reason at all". If I wanted to keep players playing longer, I'd add more levels, or different ways to play the existing ones, or add bots to the multiplayer mode, because at least those kinds of things would be in some way relevant to the rest of the actual fucking game.

When I think about replay value that isn't exactly the first thing I think of either, but I do acknowledge how it can bring more replay vallue to the game besides adding more levels and missions which are good too.... whats with the cursing? u mad?

This isn't a point in your favour either, no matter how much you pretend it is. Popularity doesn't denote whether something is a particularly good idea, and telling people to "deal with it" because a legion of brainwashed masses still believes in garbage like this is horribly senseless and immature.

It doesen't make it a bad idea either. I just think it would benifit the franchise considering Sega doesn't make these games for charity.

And if thats making people rage then thats not my problem.

By which stage it might as well be a completely seperate game entirely. Which it should be.

Also, because I missed it the first time: did you just last post claim that playing through the same levels over and over gets stale... then praise Chao Gardens because it requires you to play the same levels over and over to grind for rings and Chaos Drives? Giving an incentive to replay levels doesn't make things any less repetitive, it just means having to grind to do anything with it.

A separate game within the main game? sure.

Also while it may not make anything less repetitive It still offers some replay value after you have beaten all the levels. I remember discovering something new about each level as I went back to replay it again.

Edited October 1, 2011 by Eastwood

[Tornado]

Being forced to replay the level is not the same thing as possessing replay value.

Edited October 1, 2011 by TGaP Tornado

[Indigo Rush]

You should be replaying Sonic levels because they were fun or because you want to perfect your score or time, not because there are special animals lying around for a pet simulator, who's concept, by the way, has been completely abandoned since 2002.

[Blacklightning]

When I think about replay value that isn't exactly the first thing I think of either, but I do acknowledge how it can bring more replay vallue to the game

By forcing players to grind for chaos drives. That's not a good thing.

whats with the cursing? u mad?

No, that's just my way of expressing emphasis. This is my normal mood. Trust me, you wouldn't want to see me genuinely angry.

It doesen't make it a bad idea either.

Not necessarily, but the fact that neither them nor yourself are doing anything to prove anything to the contrary doesn't exactly support your stance. At the very least we're offering counterpoints to refute yours.

I just think it would benifit the franchise considering Sega doesn't make these games for charity.

...what is that even supposed to mean? This literally doesn't have a single thing to do with anyone's argument.

And if thats making people rage then thats not my problem.

Uh, well, it kinda is, because you happen to be arguing against said "ragers" at this very moment and downputting all of them without even offering any meaningful justification for your arguments.

A separate game within the main game? sure.

Now I know you're being this dense on purpose.

Also while it may not make anything less repetitive It still offers some replay value after you have beaten all the levels. I remember discovering

something new about each level as I went back to replay it again.

Which is something all players do naturally, with or without the Chao Garden forcing them to grind it over and over again. The Chao Garden is not as responsible for this behaviour as much as you give it credit for. Edited October 1, 2011 by Blacklightning

[Eastwood]

Sorry... that might work on the Sega forums but it's not going to wash here.

You said that it's boring to replay levels, but not if you're trying to catch a specific animal... Can you explain that thinking? How on earth can replaying levels because you want to and for your own enjoyment be more fun/have greater replay value than replaying them because the game wants you to for a mindless reason?

I never said it was boring to replay levels; I was saying that it will eventually become boring to play them for the same reason over and over after some time.

... ... youtube comments? Seriously?

Alright then...

Lets assume that the total views on that video represent the Sonic fanbase exactly, every single person in the fanbase watched that video... thats 99,619 from when I looked.

31 of those want chao gardens.

Total percentage of the Sonic fanbase who liked the idea of chao gardens: 0.031%

You still stand by the claim that it's a popular choice?

Yeah because I was only using that video as an example... there are many others.

While it does not represent the entire fanbase Neither does this site.

Only because you're forced too if you want to beat the game 100% and unlock all the collectibles/trophies/characters and everything else that they mindlessly tie into it. Which is probably the only reason that the majority of people even touch that aspect of the game.

Thats if you want to complete the game 100% which understandably is a flaw but not a big one because I dont think the majority of people worry about completing that game 100%. Other than that it was pretty much optional.

Edited October 1, 2011 by Eastwood

[Blacklightning]

I never said it was boring to replay levels; I was saying that it will eventually become boring to play them for the same reason over and over after some time.

No less so than forcing people to play them over and over for a reason even more tedious than it was originally.

Yeah because I was only using that video as an example... there are many others.

While it does not represent the entire fanbase Neither does this site.

Which throws your entire popularity argument right out the fucking window, I hope you're aware. That argument works both ways quite easily.

Thats if you want to complete the game 100% which understandably is a flaw but not a big one because I dont think the majority of people worry about completing that game 100%.

Because you'd know that for sure, right?

Even if that wasn't blatantly putting words into other people's mouths, that's still not even close to an excuse to making a natural goal of completionism needlessly tedious and boring to accomplish. It's the equivalent of asking for a goddamned farming sim to uncover the Riddler's clues in Arkham Asylum - it's not replay value in any sense, it's just mindlessly padding out the game with no real thought or reason to it.

[Eastwood]

By forcing players to grind for chaos drives. That's not a good thing.

Doesn't force you unless you're trying to complete the game 100%; in which case I can see how that could be a problem.

No, that's just my way of expressing emphasis. This is my normal mood. Trust me, you wouldn't want to see me genuinely angry.

Okay.

Not necessarily, but the fact that neither them nor yourself are doing anything to prove anything to the contrary doesn't exactly support your stance. At the very least we're offering counterpoints to refute yours.

The only so called counterpoint you're offering is that it does not belong because it isn't part of the main game which isn't exactly true considering

you have to replay the game in order to get what you need for it. The only real difference here is YOU don't like it and I do.

...what is that even supposed to mean? This literally doesn't have a single thing to do with anyone's argument.

It has to do with the argument that baisicly says if fans want it they will pay for it. And thats something I have pretty much

been saying the entire time.

Uh, well, it kinda is, because you happen to be arguing against said "ragers" at this very moment and downputting all of them without even offering any meaningful justification for your arguments.

I have offered meaningful justification and you guys have baisicly said it just doesn't belong. And no It's not a problem for me at all.

Now I know you're being this dense on purpose.

Nope I'm pretty much saying it should be separate game within the main one that doesn't force you to play it.

Which is something all players do naturally, with or without the Chao Garden forcing them to grind it over and over again. The Chao Garden is not as responsible for this behaviour as much as you give it credit for.

Obviously it is seeing how so many people ask for it time and time again.

I never said it was the only thing that caused players to replay the game.

[Badnik Mechanic]

*reads Eastwoods post*

Tell me I'm not the only one who notices that he's just destroyed his own points/argument with this?

I never said it was boring to replay levels; I was saying that it will eventually become boring to play them for the same reason over and over after some time.

Like looking for animals/chaos drives for example?

Yeah because I was only using that video as an example... there are many others.

While it does not represent the entire fanbase Neither does this site.

You accused me a few posts ago of not actually reading what was said. I think you may need to take your own advice.

In post number 641 (top post on page 33) you said...

SEGA has admitted that Chao gardens are a popular request from sonic fans and that they hear us.

In post number 645 I directly quoted that and said Do you have a link to that article To which you then replied with the youtube video.

Now I have a further three questions for you based on what you've just said, that it was only an example...

1: How does that youtube video prove your statement of Sega have admitted that Chao gardens are popular request from Sonic fans, or that they hear those requests?

2: How does that backup your claim at all then? If by your own admission that nearly 100,000 views don't represent the full fanbase... how can you say that those 31 people are a representive figure that supports your claim?

3: Can you please supply us with the article that proves the claim that Sega have admitted that Chao gardens are a popular request from fans and that the demand is higher than 0.031%?

In fact heres another interesting figure. If that 31 likes was from the total number of SSMB users, it would still only represent 1% of this board who would be in favour of the chao gardens remaining.

Thats if you want to complete the game 100% which understandably is a flaw but not a big one because I dont think the majority of people worry about completing that game 100%. Other than that it was pretty much optional.

Even if you wern't just typing that because you have nothing to support what you've said, I doubt you'd find very many people who it would apply to at all.

I think I've had enough of this topic.

Edited October 2, 2011 by Hogfather

[Diogenes]

The only so called counterpoint you're offering is that it does not belong because it isn't part of the main game which isn't exactly true considering you have to replay the game in order to get what you need for it.

No, it's entirely true. If the virtual pet was the main focus of the game, and the platformer was used to get items for it, then the platformer's inclusion would be justified, as it's a mechanic of the larger game. But that's not what's happening here; the platformer is the main game, and the virtual pet is shoehorned into it.

Nope I'm pretty much saying it should be separate game within the main one that doesn't force you to play it.

It shouldn't be in the game at all. It wastes development time and money on a second game that doesn't belong here in the first place. If you're really that desperate for chao, ask for a separate game instead of cluttering up an unrelated one. Chaos Walker had a good idea in the game ideas topic; a separate chao garden game that can communicate with future Sonic games. The chao garden would be self-sufficient but receive extras from Sonic games, and the Sonic games would only have to include a small packet of data to pass to the chao garden game instead of forcing the two games together.

[eXtaticus]

I think I've had enough of this topic.

[Blacklightning]

Doesn't force you unless you're trying to complete the game 100%

...so? Is there something wrong with making 100% completion legitimately fun to achieve?

The only so called counterpoint you're offering is that it does not belong because it isn't part of the main game which isn't exactly true considering

you have to replay the game in order to get what you need for it. The only real difference here is YOU don't like it and I do.

It only appears that way because you've been deliberately ignoring most of my key arguments, and twisting others out of their actual context. Like right here. I was making a point about Chao Gardens having almost nothing to do with an actual Sonic game, let alone the game in question, and somehow that got twisted into Chao Gardens literally not being in the game? What exactly are you trying to pull here?

If it's really that much trouble, then I'll reiterate it: Chao Gardens do not benefit the game it's attached to in the ways you seem to think it does. It requires you to grind levels over and over again just to be functional in any way, and this is not fun or rewarding no matter which way you spin it. It does not encourage exploration any more that an ordinary platforming game does - in fact, the Chao Gardens do not reward any kind of exploration at all, so I'm not sure where you're pulling that from. It does not encourage replay value that is in any way fun - it just prompts you to smash every bot along the way, grab all the drives you need and hope you don't bump into another one by accident to put your efforts way out of whack. It does not encourage you to replay levels you wouldn't originally - in fact, it decreases the levels you want to replay, because many of them have a sub-optimal chaos drive / animal rate that makes them less preferable over others as a chao raising expedition.

It does not share the same genre as the rest of the game. It is not in any way linked to the rest of the game beyond boring and repetitive chaos drive gathering. The rest of the game does not benefit from it in any way it wouldn't of its own right. You are not in control of any aspect of the chao garden or its minigames beyond stats. I mean really, your entire argument essentially revolves around it offering replay value that could have been gathered from far easier, more relevant and infinetely more fun methods, so I fail to see why it should even be linked to a Sonic game at all when both of them would be much better as seperate games devoid of any link to each other.

It has to do with the argument that baisicly says if fans want it they will pay for it. And thats something I have pretty much

been saying the entire time.

Most people know better than that. I refuse to believe a company should make stupid decisions because people have money, because they could easily make up a better userbase just by making a game that has less objective problems with it.

Nope I'm pretty much saying it should be separate game within the main one that doesn't force you to play it.

It defeats the purpose of attaching one game to another if neither of them even interact with each other, by which point they might as well just sell them seperately.

Obviously it is seeing how so many people ask for it time and time again.

Based on sources you keep citing that "do not represent the entire fanbase"? And those are your words, by the way, in case you're thinking of refuting that. Either find yourself a reliable source to support this stance or stop shoving your words into everyone else's mouths. Including mine, apparently:

I never said it was the only thing that caused players to replay the game.

So now we're devolving into strawman arguments. Fan-fuckin'-tastic.

[Solkia]

Because people are stupid. Sonic Team could make a game where sonic takes a shit for an hour and a half, slap the name SA3 on it, give it a chao garden, and people would call it the best game in years.

[sonfan1984]

Because people are stupid. Sonic Team could make a game where sonic takes a shit for an hour and a half, slap the name SA3 on it, give it a chao garden, and people would call it the best game in years.

I don't think it was be that simple. >.>

[Solkia]

I don't think it was be that simple. >.>

Trust me, if it had a chao garden, the buyers wouldn't give a damn about the gameplay.

[Nepenthe]

So your point is that every person who wants an Adventure game is undiscerning of quality? How pretentious.

[sonfan1984]

I care about the gameplay. I don't care at all about chao gardens. :\

[Solkia]

Everytime i hear a Sonic Adventure 3 argument, the chao garden is brought up. My main point was that people think slapping the name SA3 on it would instantly make the game better. Which is stupid. People should focus more on gameplay, and less on a stupid title.

So your point is that every person who wants an Adventure game is undiscerning of quality? How pretentious.

Nah, i've just lost my faith in people.

[Xenos]

Everytime i hear a Sonic Adventure 3 argument, the chao garden is brought up. My main point was that people think slapping the name SA3 on it would instantly make the game better. Which is stupid. People should focus more on gameplay, and less on a stupid title.

Nah, i've just lost my faith in people.

Even if I sound like I'm trying to "Shit" on everyone who wants SA3, my main argument was that it isn't really a good idea to trash everything Sonic Team have been working on and go back to something they aren't acustomed to anymore. (This Sonic Team aren't the ones who made the Adventure Formula and worked with it.)

But even I can tell just by looking in this topic the reason they want Sonic Adventure 3 isn't because of a name.

Pay attention to the thread you're posting in before saying stuff like that.

[T-Min]

Trust me, if it had a chao garden, the buyers wouldn't give a damn about the gameplay.

...Do you even know a THING about the Sonic fanbase?

[batson]

Personally, i prefer the gameplay of the Sonic/Shadow levels in the Adventure games over the modern, boost-era 3D gameplay. The Adventure gameplay felt like more traditional, tried-and-true platforming. So i wouldn't mind seeing the Adventure style gameplay make a comeback.

However, the 2D sections in Colors were great as well, so if the boosty-3D games keep balancing out its "racing game-ish" 3D gameplay with great 2D platforming gameplay like that, im still happy.

[eXtaticus]

Does anyone here really give a shit whether or not there's a Chao Garden? Granted it would be pretty cool, but it's far from essential...

And, in fact, I've come up with a decent counter-argument for people complaining about what they call "genre roulette", too; Sonic Adventure 3 (tentative title) is supposed to be a perfect and problem-free sequel to the previous Adventure games, so why would you worry about genre roulette being in it? Conceptually, the perfect "Sonic Adventure 3" should be assumed perfect until actually played.

[Xenos]

Does anyone here really give a shit whether or not there's a Chao Garden? Granted it would be pretty cool, but it's far from essential...

And, in fact, I've come up with a decent counter-argument for people complaining about what they call "genre roulette", too; Sonic Adventure 3 (tentative title) is supposed to be a perfect and problem-free sequel to the previous Adventure games, so why would you worry about genre roulette being in it? Conceptually, the perfect "Sonic Adventure 3" should be assumed perfect until actually played.

[Marcello]

I want Chao Gardens, because I enjoyed them, but they aren't the reason I'd like a new Adventure. I want it because I enjoyed Sonic's gameplay the most. I don't need emerald hunting or any of that, although I don't really mind alternate gameplay.

And before someone says it doesn't have to be called Adventure 3, I know and I don't care what it's called. It can can be called Sonic Adventure 3 or Sonic Rage or whatever, I don't care as long as it's returns to Sonic Adventure gameplay.

P.S. Stop being an arrogant prick, Solkia.

Edited October 2, 2011 by MarcelloF

[eXtaticus]

^ This is pretty much everything that I've been getting at over the last four pages rolled into one post.

Thank you, MarcelloF.