Characters you don't want to return

[Furie]

I just think Sonic is the best character and that the games should stick soley on him.

 

Sonic Team should keep up the good work! The less I see of daft characters like, pfff, Shadow, the better!

 

Look at Sonic Generations, the best Sonic game since Sonic and Knuckles. That focused soley on Sonic and was excellent for it!

[DarkLight]

It wasn't entirely excellent if the story wasn't up to par with everything else.

[ArtFenix]

Yeah, Shadow can only be grimdark-angsty. *sarcasm

I mean, he IS dark but he can bring some AMAZING and unique humor to the series and I'm fine with that kind of humor (just don't overdo it like the jokes in Colors).

[SenEDDtor Missile]

I just think Sonic is the best character and that the games should stick soley on him.

 

Sonic Team should keep up the good work! The less I see of daft characters like, pfff, Shadow, the better!

 

Look at Sonic Generations, the best Sonic game since Sonic and Knuckles. That focused soley on Sonic and was excellent for it!

I hate to snipe my favorite game, but Unleashed was Sola Sonic, and look how well it turned out critically.

 

Honestly, it feels like you are just looking for a scapegoat rather than using reasoning for your beliefs if anything.

[Furie]

I hate to snipe my favorite game, but Unleashed was Sola Sonic, and look how well it turned out critically.

 

Honestly, it feels like you are just looking for a scapegoat rather than using reasoning for your beliefs if anything.

 

Well, to be honest, the Werehog was a whole new character.

[Diogenes]

Look at Sonic Generations, the best Sonic game since Sonic and Knuckles. That focused soley on Sonic and was excellent for it!

Generations wasn't much fun to play and its story was even worse. It's not something the series should look towards for guidance.

[Mr. Taxi]

Simplifying anything doesn't inherently improve the franchise's state of being unless the the quality of the existing elements and the overall new work is good enough to make up for it. We didn't get any amazing story out of Colors for example simply because it had the cast members you named. This, in turn, only proceeds to highlight the gaping hole that is the missing presence of other characters to their respective fan bases even further, so it's a lose-lose for people who actually give a shit about the narrative.

 

Frankly, I don't think Sega has the interest much less writing chops to somehow make a series that was known for most of its life for character introductions- for better or worse- somehow just as appealing or more so entirely without them. This current direction in regards to how it is handling the cast- both those who are there and those who aren't- is is a platitude to satisfy the tons of people who make illicit connections and arguments without nuance about the problems of the franchise, who say things like "If you get rid of x and add in y, everything will automatically be better," and nothing else.

 

On the other hand, additions aren't really additions unless they cater to an already existing logic or doesn't confront said logic. Knuckles was a smart addition because it expanded on elements that were already there - the Chaos Emeralds. And, curiously, he himself was in the middle of Sonic and Robotnik's quarrels, exactly like the Chaos Emeralds. Sonic Adventure expanded even further in this logic with Chaos, the ancient civilization and Tikal. That's a nice form of setting up a sense of past and present in the series, since it's all a part of the same logic. What I don't really like about SA2 is how it rewrites the logics of Sonic's universe, relativizing Eggman as a "source of evil" and putting the rest of this evil in another instance of the past.

 

Sure, Shadow is the perfect rival in this scene, as it's the synthesis of present and past. And then there are the symbols of this dialectic notions (like Gerald Robotnik, the moon and the ARK) and that must be replicated if you need to bring the same topics again and expand them (a lot like Sonic Battle did).

 

So for Shadow to be introduced seamlessly into the story, you need to bring all of this again and expand on it. It's not just a matter of "add x and write him well".

[SenEDDtor Missile]

Well, to be honest, the Werehog was a whole new character.

Being angrier, furrier, and gruffer while still being Sonic on the inside does not a new character make.

 

Now if it ended up being a split personality that acts independently of Sonic's usual behavior, then you could probably consider it a character, even if only barely.

Edited September 5, 2013 by 743 ED Missile

[Tara]

Yeah, Shadow can only be grimdark-angsty. *sarcasm

 

[image]

 

I mean, he IS dark but he can bring some AMAZING and unique humor to the series and I'm fine with that kind of humor (just don't overdo it like the jokes in Colors).

Using his Archie personality to justify his presence in the games probably isn't helping your argument.

 

But I agree with Ed Missile.  The games that focused solely on Sonic weren't good solely because they focused on Sonic.  They were good because of their writing and the fact that they managed to execute the primary gameplay properly.  Even those points, however, are subject to debate as there are plenty of fans that would disagree with me on both those notions.  Either way, it has nothing to do with Sonic being the primary focus.

Edited September 5, 2013 by Akito

[Nepenthe]

On the other hand, additions aren't really additions unless they cater to an already existing logic or doesn't confront said logic. Knuckles was a smart addition because it expanded on elements that were already there - the Chaos Emeralds. And, curiously, he himself was in the middle of Sonic and Robotnik's quarrels, exactly like the Chaos Emeralds. Sonic Adventure expanded even further in this logic with Chaos, the ancient civilization and Tikal. That's a nice form of setting up a sense of past and present in the series, since it's all a part of the same logic. What I don't really like about SA2 is how it rewrites the logics of Sonic's universe, relativizing Eggman as a "source of evil" and putting the rest of this evil in another instance of the past.

 

Sure, Shadow is the perfect rival in this scene, as it's the synthesis of present and past. And then there are the symbols of this dialectic notions (like Gerald Robotnik, the moon and the ARK) and that must be replicated if you need to bring the same topics again and expand them (a lot like Sonic Battle did).

 

So for Shadow to be introduced seamlessly into the story, you need to bring all of this again and expand on it. It's not just a matter of "add x and write him well".

 

Arguing against the notion that merely taking things out always leads to automatic improvement isn't a tacit endorsement of adding in characters and plot lines for the hell of things. I'd never really argue for sloppy craftsmanship in regards to writing, so on that front we agree. x3

[Vertekins]

 

 

 

I'm not the only one who thinks that the latter two panels were included not so much for the sake of humor as they are for the sake of intentionally generating a meme? I mean considering that other internet meme's of all things are used for humor in this comic rather than humor that's actually context-relevant and clever...

 

The games that focused solely on Sonic weren't good solely because they focused on Sonic.  They were good because of their writing and the fact that they managed to execute the primary gameplay properly.

 

 

I dunno...whilst Colours and Generations was what you could call 'good', they had far from great writing. Storybooks are the other way around - Great writing, not the best gameplay.

[ArtFenix]

Using his Archie personality to justify his presence in the games probably isn't helping your argument.

I used it as an example of what could be done with Shadow, which justifies anything I bring as an example.

 

It's not like Shadow has constant stable personality in games anyway.

Edited September 5, 2013 by ArtFenix

[Tara]

I dunno...whilst Colours and Generations was what you could call 'good', they had far from great writing. Storybooks are the other way around - Great writing, not the best gameplay.

Oh, I wasn't saying they were "great." XD - I'm saying that what made them better than a lot of the games that came before them had nothing to do with Sonic being the primary focus.  But yeah, I agree with you.  The main series and the storybook games tend to have reversed strengths and weaknesses.  Why can't we have the best of both worlds?! D=

 

 

I used it as an example of what could be done with Shadow, which justifies anything I bring as an example.

Ah, fair enough.  I'd have to read the comics to find out if I actually like Archie's characterization of Shadow, though, since that one page doesn't do much to convince me.

Edited September 5, 2013 by Akito

[Zavok the SpinningSilver]

I'm not the only one who thinks that the latter two panels were included not so much for the sake of humor as they are for the sake of intentionally generating a meme? I mean considering that other internet meme's of all things are used for humor in this comic rather than humor that's actually context-relevant and clever...

 

 It was probably a mix. Ian probably wanted the scene for the sake of humor, while good ol' Tracy saw it and decided to make it meme worthy.

 

If I can touch on Shadow's portrayal in Archie for a bit, it's pretty good. I like it anyway. He's generally either on par or a little more snarky than what the games would make of him. He's had a little development to the point where he can really rely on his team. (Although it seems as a result of him recently joining GUN he's rarely seen without them)

You could say he's more of a duty driven hero too, as he's another "guardian ultimate world saviour" type character now. Other than that, he's pretty much the same as his games counterpart.

 

Not too shabby if I do say so myself. And it would be awesome if the writers from the Storybook Series and the Unleashed team just came together and ran wild with a story.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I swear to god, I fall asleep for 4 hours and 3 new pages blow up.

 

Man, does any oldbie remember that Shadow fanboy who used to troll these forums years ago? Amazing how much things have changed.

[UltDevilDoom]

Some people here hate Shadow, apparently.

 

I like his character for reasons I've stated before. I don't feel like stating them again because it's late where I live and I'm tired.

 

I deleted the whole Sonic Heroes thing because...I don't know. I'm tired.

Edited September 6, 2013 by UltDevilDoom

[Wraith]

Shadow's whole story was probably one of the better parts about Heroes, at least to me. The whole android subplot was actually a good way to keep him relevant without undoing SA2's ending.

[Celestia]

I agree with that actually, it's a shame ShTH screwed it up with the ""'multiple endings""" and then having the actual truth only be revealed if you stay in the final fight long enough.

 

I'm still a little bit annoyed after all these years at the under-reactions towards Shadow's apparent survival in Heroes, though. Granted I seem to recall Tails and maybe Knuckles acknowledging that Shadow had supposed died, but Sonic just seemed to take it in stride. I know he's laid back when not angry about something, but that seems like a bit much...

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Ya know, Sonic Team could've saved the trouble and showed something descending from the atmosphere as an implied survival and avoided a whole lot of drama. It's not like he's the first character to survive atmospheric reentry anyway.

 

And given that he vanished in a flash of light, well that could have been played with in a number of ways to avoid his backlash later on.

Edited September 6, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonîc

[Celestia]

To be honest, I was never all that surprised he was alive. For one he was really popular, but also, well, Sonic has survived really long falls. I guess Shadow fell quite a bit farther and through the atmosphere, but still.

 

I had forgotten about the flash of light, but they seemed to ignore it once ShTH rolled around...bleh.

[Tara]

I'm still a little bit annoyed after all these years at the under-reactions towards Shadow's apparent survival in Heroes, though. Granted I seem to recall Tails and maybe Knuckles acknowledging that Shadow had supposed died, but Sonic just seemed to take it in stride. I know he's laid back when not angry about something, but that seems like a bit much...

Sonic makes a comment saying he doesn't like the way Shadow treats friends that he "hasn't seen in awhile," or something to that effect, while Tails and Knuckles simply implore why he doesn't seem to remember them.  Even Rouge, when she first stumbles upon Shadow, makes a face of surprise, but never openly acknowledges the events of SA2.  So basically, Sega really went out of their way to make sure Shadow was integrated back into the plot without the slightest ounce of explanation.  The fact that the answer is only revealed late into the final boss battle of the game which is supposed to answer this question shows that they apparently never thought this vital piece of information was ever important or that they expected players to just not question it.

 

Ya know, Sonic Team could've saved the trouble and showed something descending from the atmosphere as an implied survival and avoided a whole lot of drama. It's not like he's the first character to survive atmospheric reentry anyway.

 

And given that he vanished in a flash of light, well that could have been played with in a number of ways to avoid his backlash later on.

I would have been content with any explanation, really, as long as an explanation was, indeed, given.  That is to say, if the explanation was given properly.  You would think that this kind of reveal warranted at least one cutscene dedicated to it.  So, Eggman rescued Shadow before he could die.  It's not the best explanation (considering it fails to explain why Super Sonic couldn't have easily saved him), but I could buy into that being something Eggman would do.  But they never show it happening or use this knowledge to compare what we now know to what we were initially led to believe.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Yes, telling rather than showing. It's not easy to do every time, but for simple scenes like that it's amazing how they couldn't do that.

[daman825]

Rouge, Silver, and Cream need to go or be heavily re-worked. 

 

Rouge has possibly the worst character design out of any sonic characters that I can recall and does not look like she belongs in the same universe as sonic. I mean, high heels,lipstick, cleavage, and spandex? That's the best they could come up with? And don't even get me started on her backstory. A bat who works as an undercover spy for the government(ugh) who also is a gem thief on the side. And boy does she have an attitude. She was created at a time when Sonic team wanted to take sonic into an "edgy" and "gritty" direction. Sonic isn't gritty anymore,  hedgehogs no longer ride harleys, cuss, and shoot guns. Rouge really doesn't belong anymore. 

 

The main reason I want silver gone is because hes a hedgehog who is incredibly slow, can't use any form of a homing attack, and was introduced in the worst sonic game ever created. And just like Rouge, his back story is pretty lame as well (a hedgehog sent from the future to kill sonic) Also, sonic characters shouldn't have supernatural (energy blast like) abilities. That's what the chaos emeralds are for.

 

And now for Cream. She is possible the most annoying character in a sonic game ever. Her personality type could work (a young, innocent hero). But Sonic Team has botched it in every game she appeared in. She calls Sonic "Mr. Sonic", has a really annoying voice (it's like the VA is trying too hard to sound helpless and innocent), and says some really facepalm worthy things almost everytime she shows up. Cheese is the only redeeming factor about her.

Edited September 7, 2013 by daman825

[Mando-Whirl-Wind]

Rouge, Silver, and Cream need to go or be heavily re-worked. 

more elaboration please

[daman825]

more elaboration please

(i'll edit this into my post after this)

 

Rouge has possibly the worst character design out of any sonic characters that I can recall and does not look like she belongs in the same universe as sonic. I mean, high heels,lipstick, cleavage, and spandex? That's the best they could come up with? And don't even get me started on her backstory. A bat who works as an undercover spy for the government(ugh) who also is a gem thief on the side. And boy does she have an attitude. She was created at a time when Sonic team wanted to take sonic into an "edgy" and "gritty" direction. Sonic isn't gritty anymore,  hedgehogs no longer ride harleys, cuss, and shoot guns. Rouge really doesn't belong anymore. 

 

The main reason I want silver gone is because hes a hedgehog who is incredibly slow, can't use any form of a homing attack, and was introduced in the worst sonic game ever created. And just like Rouge, his back story is pretty lame as well (a hedgehog sent from the future to kill sonic) Also, sonic characters shouldn't have supernatural (energy blast like) abilities. That's what the chaos emeralds are for.

 

And now for Cream. She is possible the most annoying character in a sonic game ever. Her personality type could work (a young, innocent hero). But Sonic Team has botched it in every game she appeared in. She calls Sonic "Mr. Sonic", has a really annoying voice (it's like the VA is trying too hard to sound helpless and innocent), and says some really facepalm worthy things almost everytime she shows up. Cheese is the only redeeming factor about her.

Edited September 7, 2013 by daman825