Characters you don't want to return

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

The way I see it, it's a Magikarp to Gyrados comparison no matter who we're talking about; others see you for what you are rather than what you can become.

 

Characters like Big the cat haven't appealed to me, but I'm pretty sure there are ways to make him better, which is why I say the keep him even if I don't like him. Hell, that even got boosted when I saw how much I liked him in the Archie comics and figured that he could really become interesting.

 

When something I like sucks, I call it out and tell them to fix it and do better next time. You're gonna have a real hard time for me to see any value in the idea of scrapping a character.

[FalconKick]

*after a long day, FalconKick visits the thread*

 

*Kick didn't celebrate Labor Day this year because he had to work. He has to draw, ink, and color for preparation for the Baltimore Comic-Con. He was slightly behind deadline. He didn't get to enjoy the weekend with his friends and family. He didn't get to play any video games.*

 

*FalconKick was FalconSad*

 

*Then as he came to relax and forget his troubles, he saw that the entire thread has been de-railed. Everyone was tearing each other's opinions over the possible redemption of a fictional hedgehog with anti-social tendencies*

 

*Seeing this brought Kick to tears....*

 

*...of joy *

 

*Seeing all the havok his post did, motivated FalconKick to keep his head up and see the silver linings.*

 

"And it all thanks to you guys! Now I feel like I had a great Labor Day after all! You're the best!"

 

*And so FalconKick returns to work with a renewed sense of vigor and purpose. The thread returns to discussing terminating Silver's employment benefits."

 

*And Everyone Lived Happily Ever After!*

 

*...except Shadow, because he seems incapable of the emotion of happiness. Or maybe he did, but it came at the expense of others. Who knows, it's not like he's ever been written well anyways*

Edited September 3, 2013 by FalconKick

[Tara]

That said, I'm not finished with the debate (was writing this on my damn phone):

And if he stopped being fun to watch? Because in games like ShTH, Sonic 06, and even in Heroes where people began noticing the writing was off, he was no more fun to watch than any other character.

Personally, the only thing bugged me about Heroes' portrayal of Tails is his voice.  So I guess I can't comment on that.  As for ShTH and '06, I reiterate what I said about having more than enough good roles to overshadow the bad.  Even in those, though, he didn't drag for me as much as Shadow himself did.  If, on the occasion, he stopped being fun throughout the majority of the series (worth a note that I'm including handhelds and spin-offs here), then yeah, he would terrible.

 

It also helps that he's pretty much a main character, while Shadow has always been a bit of a side character despite the way Sonic Team had enjoyed milking him to death.

 

 

No, but you said that if they were going to write all the characters bad, you'd rather have the ones that are "less" bad, and I wanted to know by what measure is a character "less" bad besides personal preference (because I for one don't even give a damn about my own preferences in these cases, much less anyone else's).

Well, that's about all this topic is and ever has been as far as I'm concerned.  The thing is that when you combine enough "personal preferences," you get a "general consensus," which I think is enough to speak volumes of a character's quality in and of itself.  That isn't to say you can't disagree with it or that the general consensus is an unflawed or unbiased or objectively correct survey.  It just means that there's a serious problem with the character who needs to be either changed or removed if he wants a better reception.

 

 

I was actually explaining why it wasn't a poor excuse, and that also applies to the characters you happen to favor when they're given poor treatment as well. The point being that you simply don't call a poor job at something a bad excuse, because a poor job is a poor job regardless; you acknowledge it and take steps to improve it and avoid doing so in ways you know the audience won't like.

I know.  My point was that you were attempting to explain why it wasn't a poor excuse, but you were listing reasons why it is.  My point still stands that you can't justify his presence just because he could be written better.  If there comes a day where Sega decides to change writers and all the characters, Shadow included, benefit from it, then okay.  Good.  But under the current circumstances, that's not going to happen, so I'd just rather them focus on the characters which aren't nearly as painful to sit through.

 

 

And what if they were to have those personalities that click with you still present, but flanderized to ridiculous and absurd levels? Essentially, like they did with Shadow for me, by taking his characteristics I like only to blow them out of proportion. Would that still click with you?

That's too broad of a question to answer with certainty.  Shadow already had qualities that I thought were kind of hit or miss, so when they cranked those qualities up to 11, it was especially aggravating.  Knuckles may no longer be the same as he was in SA1 and before, but at least I have that to go by and reference.  In the case of Tails, I'd probably just wish they would go back to the way he was before.  Shadow doesn't have the luxury of "going back to the way he was before" because the way he was before was already problematic for me.  That being said, I didn't mind him too much in SA2, as I said, because I felt I understood his motivations (and because I was too young to care) and maybe under better writing conditions, ShTH wouldn't have been quite so awful.  But, you know, we got what we were given, and because of that, I just don't like him nearly as much.

 

 

I agree he's had good moments before, and improved vastly afterward, which is largely why that's allowed. But Shadow arguably has a lot of potential and even had good moments scattered about. I've heard some people say his story was the only good thing about '06... but then, I assume that's not saying much. And he can only improve in the same way as Sonic if he's allowed to do so.

 

But, fair enough, you don't care for the character, you don't care for the character. I'm not trying to change your mind, I'm just arguing with your point, which I would think would be fair.

I suppose now is a bad time to mention I thought Shadow's story was the most boring aspect of Sonic '06?  To be fair, though, that seems more of an issue with atmosphere and pacing.

 

Anyway, I'd say my point was fair.  I'm only judging him based on what I've seen in the games, and while I won't argue that he could have potential to be better than what he is, I just can't see it.

 

 

That's just the thing, you're figuring it can't be good simply because you don't care for the character. That's fair, it's your personal taste. But it's also why I'd point back to my TMNT example. Despite that property having wildly different interpretations among the various incarnations, we still have core characters and some canon immigrants. It's still Turtles to me, regardless of what version it is. While I inititally groaned about "General Krang" in IDW's comic, the "Krang War" story and Krang's one-shot turned me around on the character. I don't care for the Fred Wolf cartoon, I'm not shy about that, but even I'm willing to give some credit and think there might be potential if it's mined properly. That goes back to Shadow, or any other character, and I say "why the hell not?" Instead of them being a "shitty friend" or a dumb hanger-on, make them, you know, not suck.

 

Core personality traits can be interpreted differently by different people.  The 2012 turtles just aren't the same as the 1986 turtles even though they're core personality traits are the same.  Likewise, what little I have read of Archie Sonic, I simply don't see it the same as Sega Sonic.  Even though Archie Sonic's core personality is still the cocky, do-good, he still looks, feels, and in some regards acts largely different than he would in Sega Sonic. (Being involved in romantic relationships being one of those big things, but I can't comment on those as, like I said, I haven't read enough to discuss the canon extensively)

 

Having a writer that can make Shadow not being groan-enducingly frustrating would be okay I guess, but whomever wrote him would still have to over a decade of continuity to play off of in order to fully do the character any kind of justice.  Unless, of course, Sega decide to reboot the series entirely.  As much as I dislike ShTH (which, actually isn't as much as I'm leading on), we can't deny that it's something that happened within this continuity, and as such, his personality must derive from the experiences surrounding it.  At least, that's how I feel a character should be written.  Otherwise, his personality would shift for no explainable reason, which would just be baffling.  It could be good, don't get me wrong, but baffling nonetheless.

 

 

While I'm arguing for a character I happen to like, I think it can equally be applied to any character. I don't care for Cream, Charmy, or Big for example, but hey, give 'em a shot and make them worthwhile, don't just stick them in the same lousy role they've had the whole time to justify why some people don't like these characters. I really don't think my argument for Shadow is any different from your arguments in favor of Tails or Knuckles, other than playing favorites.

Just going to say right now that my position on Shadow largely depends on the direction the series goes.  Shadow has yet to prove he can do good in the current direction the series is going, and I happen to really like the direction the series is going.  If they can find a good way to fit him in, then fine.  Whatever.  I don't think I am playing favorites anymore than anyone else is.  I'd say the same thing about Shadow or any character if I felt they could be utilized properly.  As is, I don't see that ever happening.  Granted, Tails and Knuckles aren't exactly well-written either, but that's kind of my point.  When all the characters are like this, the only thing I can go by is personal preference.

 

Also, just going to say that on a similar note, I made a post in another topic whereby I said that every character should have contextual purpose to the narrative.  Unfortunately, a lot of the characters have suffered from "Team Rocket syndrome," and have only appeared because the developers think they must appear, with Shadow being of little exception.  Then, in light of the "shitty friends" critique that gets tossed around by game critics every so often, they decided to do the opposite, which is just as bad.

 

Also also, don't think I agree with the "shitty friends" complaint or don't think it's as stupid as everyone else does.  It is terrible.  It's just a contrived criticism made to fill space, and rectifying the problem has only led to un-diversifying(?) the series... which in turn is something that critics will more than likely use as a silly critique as well.  I don't mean to put Shadow in that kind of category.  So sorry if I sound like some IGN... reviewer... guy... thingy.... mabob...

 

 

*after a long day, FalconKick visits the thread*

 

*Kick didn't celebrate Labor Day this year because he had to work. He has to draw, ink, and color for preparation for the Baltimore Comic-Con. He was slightly behind deadline. He didn't get to enjoy the weekend with his friends and family. He didn't get to play any video games.*

 

*FalconKick was FalconSad*

 

*Then as he came to relax and forget his troubles, he saw that the entire thread has been de-railed. Everyone was tearing each other's opinions over the possible redemption of a fictional hedgehog with anti-social tendencies*

 

*Seeing this brought Kick to tears....*

 

*...of joy *

 

*Seeing all the havok his post did, motivated FalconKick to keep his head up and see the silver linings.*

 

"And it all thanks to you guys! Now I feel like I had a great Labor Day after all! You're the best!"

 

*And so FalconKick returns to work with a renewed sense of vigor and purpose. The thread returns to discussing terminating Silver's employment benefits."

 

*And Everyone Lived Happily Ever After!*

 

*...except Shadow, because he seems incapable of the emotion of happiness. Or maybe he did, but it came at the expense of others. Who knows, it's not like he's ever been written well anyways*

Um... it's a debate.  We're not tearing each other's opinions, we're just...

 

Nevermind =(

Edited September 3, 2013 by Akito

[Nepenthe]

*random roleplay stuff*

 

Disagreement is not the equivalent of tearing each other's throats out, nor is publicly announcing that you're taking strangely get joy from people, well, disagreeing. Try to be a bit more on-topic less time and less a commentator on meta discussion.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Personally, the only thing bugged me about Heroes' portrayal of Tails is his voice.  So I guess I can't comment on that.  As for ShTH and '06, I reiterate what I said about having more than enough good roles to overshadow the bad.  Even in those, though, he didn't drag for me as much as Shadow himself did.  If, on the occasion, he stopped being fun throughout the majority of the series (worth a note that I'm including handhelds and spin-offs here), then yeah, he would terrible.

I don't think having enough good roles to overshadow the bad is a good enough point considering that if you're going to include spin-offs and handhelds, Shadow isn't that bad a character either. The only games he was outright terrible in were ShTH and Sonic 06, and it's arguable of how he was in Heroes, where as other games such as SA2, Free Riders, Battle, Black Knight, and arguably Rivals were at least far decent to well done in comparison throughout his time in the series.

 

 

Well, that's about all this topic is and ever has been as far as I'm concerned.  The thing is that when you combine enough "personal preferences," you get a "general consensus," which I think is enough to speak volumes of a character's quality in and of itself.  That isn't to say you can't disagree with it or that the general consensus is an unflawed or unbiased or objectively correct survey.  It just means that there's a serious problem with the character who needs to be either changed or removed if he wants a better reception.

 

Yeah, and the topic still doesn't stop me from stepping into the grey area and arguing from there. It's to be noted that there is a serious problem with a character that even his fans see as troubling, but that being said that if one character can be redeemed through good writing or condemned through bad writing, it should follow suit that others be judged by the same standards as well.

 

 

 

I know.  My point was that you were attempting to explain why it wasn't a poor excuse, but you were listing reasons why it is.  My point still stands that you can't justify his presence just because he could be written better.  If there comes a day where Sega decides to change writers and all the characters, Shadow included, benefit from it, then okay.  Good.  But under the current circumstances, that's not going to happen, so I'd just rather them focus on the characters which aren't nearly as painful to sit through.

 

They were reasons where why it wasn't; it was practically telling  you that as characters were written badly, leading to the mess in the first place, people have acknowledged that these characters have been written well before and can be well written again or at least can do far better regardless, which is why people call such characters "victims of poor writing." They say he could be written better because they've seen him written better before. Kind of a variation of "the good overshadowing the bad" where it is instead "you were good once, you can be good again." A second chance, in other words.

 

But the current circumstances have completely changed from the previous ones that got the characters into this mess in the first place as Sonic Team went and got completely new writers to do their plots (starting with Lost World, since the new writers only wooleyized Colors and Generations from what I've heard). So with that being noted, I think we can allow them to take a shot and see how they do. Given that these writers are well known in other works, I don't think we have to worry about them being painful to sit though.

 

 

 

That's too broad of a question to answer with certainty.  Shadow already had qualities that I thought were kind of hit or miss, so when they cranked those qualities up to 11, it was especially aggravating.  Knuckles may no longer be the same as he was in SA1 and before, but at least I have that to go by and reference.  In the case of Tails, I'd probably just wish they would go back to the way he was before.  Shadow doesn't have the luxury of "going back to the way he was before" because the way he was before was already problematic for me.  That being said, I didn't mind him too much in SA2, as I said, because I felt I understood his motivations (and because I was too young to care) and maybe under better writing conditions, ShTH wouldn't have been quite so awful.  But, you know, we got what we were given, and because of that, I just don't like him nearly as much.

 

If you didn't mind him too much in SA2 however hit or miss he was, that's his luxury of "going back to the way he was before" if there ever was any, and it certainly doesn't prevent you from referencing that as at least better than what we had later on with him. That being said, it's very regressive either way whether it's Shadow, Knuckles, or Tails, when we could be striving for something better than what they did previously with them.

Edited September 3, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonîc

[FalconKick]

Disagreement is not the equivalent of tearing each other's throats out, nor is publicly announcing that you're taking strangely get joy from people, well, disagreeing. Try to be a bit more on-topic less time and less a commentator on meta discussion.

 

Oh I'm sorry , have I gotten you so flustered  that you'd rush through your statement. Usually you're a little more eloquent. My apologies.

 

However, I was simply exaggerating truth for entertainment. After all, one does not simply "disagree" by taking up two whole pages debating the merit of a particular character simply because little ol' me just so happen to declare said character's usefulness was at an end.

 

And that, you have to admit, is kind of funny Who knew Shad was still relevant enough to elicit such a response?

 

I would like to clarify that I did mention several ideas in my rant to keep him relevant; Anyone had any opinions on Shadow seeking solace in death? Anyone.....oh well, nice feedback anyways.

 

Back to work. 

Edited September 3, 2013 by FalconKick

[Tara]

I don't think having enough good roles to overshadow the bad is a good enough point considering that if you're going to include spin-offs and handhelds, Shadow isn't that bad a character either. The only games he was outright terrible in were ShTH and Sonic 06, and it's arguable of how he was in Heroes, where as other games such as SA2, Free Riders, Battle, Black Knight, and arguably Rivals were at least far decent to well done in comparison throughout his time in the series.

I suppose I can't comment on Free Riders or either Rivals games as I haven't played them, and I barely remember anything from Battle.  I don't remember him leaving an impression on me one way or the other in Black Knight, which I suppose is an improvement, but not by much.

 

Yeah, and the topic still doesn't stop me from stepping into the grey area and arguing from there. It's to be noted that there is a serious problem with a character that even his fans see as troubling, but that being said that if one character can be redeemed through good writing or condemned through bad writing, it should follow suit that others be judged by the same standards as well.

Fair enough.  But under that mindset, we may as well not get rid of any characters, which I think is only elevating the problem the series currently faces with overpopulation.  I think a few characters need to be given the boot so as to keep the overall character count at a reasonable number.  I'm not saying that character must be Shadow, but I would still honestly pick him based on my past experiences with the character if I had to choose.

 

 

They were reasons where why it wasn't; it was practically telling  you that as characters were written badly, leading to the mess in the first place, people have acknowledged that these characters have been written well before and can be well written again, which is why people call such characters "victims of poor writing." They say he could be written better because they've seen him written better before. Kind of a variation of "the good overshadowing the bad" where it is instead, "good once, you can be good again." A second chance, in other words.

 

But the current circumstances have completely changed from the previous ones that got the characters into this mess in the first place as Sonic Team went and got completely new writers to do their plots (starting with Lost World, since the new writers only wooleyized Colors and Generations from what I've heard). So with that being noted, I think we can allow them to take a shot and see how they do. Given that these writers are well known in other works, I don't think we have to worry about them being painful to sit though.

In the case of Shadow, I don't think he was ever particularly well-written, but at one point I could at least empathize with him.  But I suppose I could probably say that about all the characters to some extent.

 

 

If you didn't mind him too much in SA2 however hit or miss he was, that's his luxury of "going back to the way he was before" if there ever was any, and it certainly doesn't prevent you from referencing that as at least better than what we had later on with him. That being said, it's very regressive either way whether it's Shadow, Knuckles, or Tails, when we could be striving for something better than what they did previously with them.

You have to keep in mind that the main reason I didn't mind him so much in SA2 was because I was under the impression I would never have to see him again. =P

Edited September 3, 2013 by Akito

[Nepenthe]

Oh I'm sorry , have I gotten you so flustered  that you'd rush through your statement. Usually you're a little more eloquent. My apologies.   However, I was simply exaggerating truth for entertainment. After all, one does not simply "disagree" by taking up two whole pages debating the merit of a particular character simply because little ol' me just so happen to declare said character's usefulness was at an end.   And that, you have to admit, is kind of funny:P Who knew Shad was still relevant enough to elicit such a response?   I would like to clarify that I did mention several ideas in my rant to keep him relevant; Anyone had any opinions on Shadow seeking solace in death? Anyone.....oh well, nice feedback anyways.   Back to work.

I don't particularly care about your opinion on the matter or your attitude. I just respond to reports, and you were reported. Regardless, you never mentioned any ideas on keeping Shadow relevant. Throughout all of that, you merely said he wasn't written well. I actually read your post, hence how I determined it was mostly a comment on meta discussion. This isn't even that big thing; just a reminder to be a bit more contributing next time. No need to get facetious or defensive.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Fair enough.  But under the mindset, we may as well not get rid of any characters,

 

That's fine by me...

 

 

 

which I think is only elevating the problem the series currently faces with overpopulation.  I think a few characters needs to be given the boot so as to keep the series at a reasonable number.  I'm not saying that character must be Shadow, but I would still honestly pick him based on my past experiences with the character if I had to choose.

Or you could learn how to balance the cast and not overbloat the narrative, or you could allow the narrative to tolerate and justify having a larger cast while working to improve the characters? Not trying to rage at you or anything, but it just annoys the piss out of me that people will bring up a problem and not bother considering ideas and other alternatives to deal with them.

 

 

 

 

In the case of Shadow, I don't think he was ever particularly well-written, but at one point I could at least empathize with him.  But I suppose I could probably say that about all the characters to some extent.

Like I said, I don't care about personal interest. This is a general thing here that encompasses more than just what you think.

 

 

 

You have to keep in mind that the main reason I didn't mind him so much in SA2 was because I was under the impression I would never have to see him again. =P

Well given this and the other things above, you're kinda discrediting my defense of you not liking the character. =P

Edited September 3, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonîc

[Chaos Incarnate]

I just want to go back on what I said a couple pages ago. I really don't hate Shadow. I thought he was one of the best characters in Sonic Adventure 2 for his intriguing, mysterious past and overall good vocal performance by David Humphrey. I haven't played Heroes or Shadow, but I'm alright with his portrayal in Heroes, David Humphrey was still doing the voice, and it felt like he had the same personality he did in SA2. 

 

 

But then this game came along and Shadow's reputation honestly never improved since It added aliens into his back story for no good reason, Jason Griffith sounded way too monotone and overly serious as Shadow, and the character just honestly devolved into an anti-hero stereotype. Ever since 06, he only shows up in minor roles, just acting dark for the sake of acting dark(Black Knight doesn't count.)

 

As long as Sonic Team can make him a likeable character again and make him feel unique to Sonic, I'm perfectly fine with him returning, maybe even in a playable role. Shadow is one of my favorite characters pre his spinoff game, but he's pretty much became the butt of several jokes involving the Sonic franchise.

Edited September 3, 2013 by Chaos Incarnate

[Tara]

Or you could learn how to balance the cast and not overbloat the narrative, or you could allow the narrative to tolerate and justify having a larger cast while working to improve the characters? Not trying to rage at you or anything, but it just annoys the piss out of me that people will bring up a problem and not bother considering ideas and other alternatives to deal with them.

And those alternatives are fine.  I was mainly implying that there are some characters that are probably never going to be used again, and we need to establish which characters those are.  If Sega can make a non-bloated narrative and learn to balance the characters properly, it can be as big as they want, but somewhere down the line, a few of the characters are going to get left by the wayside anyway.

 

Like I said, I don't care about personal interest. This is a general thing here that encompasses more than just what you think.

Well, I can't provide you much more on that front, then.  I'm not honestly sure what you expect me to say on the matter that doesn't involve personal preference, but I appreciate your analytical approach.

 

Well given this and the other things above, you're kinda discrediting my defense of you not liking the character. =P

Well, I still don't despise the character to the point where my blood boils whenever I see him. XD - It's just that everytime he's there I usually just sigh and wait for it to be over.  But I mean, like all characters, he has some good aspects to him.  I do like some of his dialogue, as clumsily written as it is.

[Uraraka]

 

I love Cream as a character, but other than being Amy's version of Tails without the genius and with much more innocence, she doesn't serve that big of a purpose anymore

*snipped for space*

   Yeah, but what if a game was made where Amy and Cream were the main characters? I mean, that would be really cool!  I actually like cream a lot, and kinda wish they gave her more of a purpose . but yeah, I Don't Think all of the characters have to appear in every game,  so cream can remain dormant until needed. I feel like when they force all the characters to remain, they have way to may stories to deal with, resulting in a game where the characters are all very mellow and without personality or purpose. So I do have to agree.

   I think they should leave Elise down for good. In fact, Sega, Never even mention her name again!!!

  I think, Mainly, the characters that should be in every game are Sonic, Tails, Knuckles and Amy, because that is the main crew. I would like to see where things go with Knuckles and Rouge sometime along the line as well, though .

    I kinda wish that Sega would make an animated series that can be about the everyday lives of the Sonic characters, so that the "extra" characters can be used to help the fans get their fill .

[Zaysho]

Core personality traits can be interpreted differently by different people.  The 2012 turtles just aren't the same as the 1986 turtles even though they're core personality traits are the same.  Likewise, what little I have read of Archie Sonic, I simply don't see it the same as Sega Sonic.  Even though Archie Sonic's core personality is still the cocky, do-good, he still looks, feels, and in some regards acts largely different than he would in Sega Sonic. (Being involved in romantic relationships being one of those big things, but I can't comment on those as, like I said, I haven't read enough to discuss the canon extensively)

True, but I'm even admitting my least favorite Turtles are still Turtles. It's more a matter of preference of certain incarnations over others. But like I said, I see potential that can be mined even from a version I don't like and flipped around into something I enjoy (see my thoughts on Krang).

You might be surprsied, but I think Archie Sonic is leaning more toward SEGA Sonic than he used to (when he started out as some weird combo of "Adventures" Sonic and "SatAM" Sonic). I presume that's because SEGA is a little more active in reviewing stories and trying to line things up with the source material, while still offering something new that you wouldn't see in the games (new characters, a serial narrative, etc.). Yeah, there's still some unique characterizations, but it's thankfully gotten away from the lousy "teen drama" nonsense that plagued the book for a few years.

 

Having a writer that can make Shadow not being groan-enducingly frustrating would be okay I guess, but whomever wrote him would still have to over a decade of continuity to play off of in order to fully do the character any kind of justice.  Unless, of course, Sega decide to reboot the series entirely.  As much as I dislike ShTH (which, actually isn't as much as I'm leading on), we can't deny that it's something that happened within this continuity, and as such, his personality must derive from the experiences surrounding it.  At least, that's how I feel a character should be written.  Otherwise, his personality would shift for no explainable reason, which would just be baffling.  It could be good, don't get me wrong, but baffling nonetheless.

Growth isn't an explainable reason? Remember the end of Shadow's game? He put his past behind him, and was seeking something new? I think ChaosSupremeSonîc brought up some good examples, particularly with Free Riders. I haven't played the game, but I've watched the cutscenes (and I'm sure I'm not the only one who has) and Shadow isn't this obnoxious, whiny, melodramatic character he was back in 2005. He's surprisingly mellow and easy going, with a strong competitive streak. He's still fairly serious, but it's also kind of funny because you see this character that's focused mostly on his goals, but then he ends up (unintentionally) looking funny because of his interactions with his teammates and the other competitors (like his cluelessness as his robot teammate progressively falls apart after each race or Team Rose--for a guy who doesn't care, he sure as hell doesn't want to lose to them).

I don't think the games universe needs a reboot to justify Shadow being "different." I'm just asking for him to be written with the same level of respect as Sonic, and I honestly ask that for all characters, not just Shadow. I just want to be in the underdog's corner because people would want to see a potentially good character gone citing the same tired examples, relevant or not (it's the same reason I hate when people bring up Sonic '06 as why Sonic games suck).

 

 

Just going to say right now that my position on Shadow largely depends on the direction the series goes.  Shadow has yet to prove he can do good in the current direction the series is going, and I happen to really like the direction the series is going.  If they can find a good way to fit him in, then fine.  Whatever.  I don't think I am playing favorites anymore than anyone else is.  I'd say the same thing about Shadow or any character if I felt they could be utilized properly.  As is, I don't see that ever happening.  Granted, Tails and Knuckles aren't exactly well-written either, but that's kind of my point.  When all the characters are like this, the only thing I can go by is personal preference.

Eh, whether or not it happens I guess isn't really up to us. SEGA seems to have a fear of utilizing ANY characters that aren't Sonic, Tails and Eggman (and the surprisingly well received Orbot and Cubot it seems)lately in mainstream games. While that's fine and all, to a point, don't you get sick of seeing just them? Let's mix up and rotate the cast around and let everyone shine a bit. I'd rather the cast in general shake the "shitty friend" blanket critique some people like to throw around (and just to be clear, I'm not accusing you of this, it's just the general word that goes around and I see it applied to every character that's not the above listed characters).

I think Shadow can still fit in in the current direction without taking away from it. He doesn't have to be "dark and broody." That's not his ONLY character trait.

 

Also, just going to say that on a similar note, I made a post in another topic whereby I said that every character should have contextual purpose to the narrative.  Unfortunately, a lot of the characters have suffered from "Team Rocket syndrome," and have only appeared because the developers think they must appear, with Shadow being of little exception.  Then, in light of the "shitty friends" critique that gets tossed around by game critics every so often, they decided to do the opposite, which is just as bad.

 

Yeah, Sonic Team is always in a weird position. I agree, it sucked seeing characters get shoehorned in for the sake of it (did Blaze really need to be in '06?) and then they ultimately contribute nothing to the plots and just feel like they're hanging around. And it's just as bad when they're basically shoved off to the side, relegated to token appearances in spin-offs and you don't get a chance to see them grow or develop. I think the best remedy, as explained above (and I think I saw it in another topic somewhere on this board), would be to rotate the cast a little and let them shine next to Sonic. They don't have to be there all the time, but they shouldn't be put in a box and forgotten.

 

Also also, don't think I agree with the "shitty friends" complaint or don't think it's as stupid as everyone else does.  It is terrible.  It's just a contrived criticism made to fill space, and rectifying the problem has only led to un-diversifying(?) the series... which in turn is something that critics will more than likely use as a silly critique as well.  I don't mean to put Shadow in that kind of category.  So sorry if I sound like some IGN... reviewer... guy... thingy.... mabob...

I'm sorry if it looks like I'm accusing you of that. I'm not, and I don't mean to. It's really nothing personal, and I don't mean to put words in your mouth. I only bring up that blanket critique of "shitty friends" because it's what most people hide behind instead of trying to figure out what the characters CAN be. I never said you said that. I'm just arguing for a character I'd like to see more of, and see him improve. The writers just have to actually use that damned potential (and again, this applies to the WHOLE CAST).

Edited September 3, 2013 by Zaysho

[Kuzu]

I just want to go back on what I said a couple pages ago. I really don't hate Shadow. I thought he was one of the best characters in Sonic Adventure 2 for his intriguing, mysterious past and overall good vocal performance by David Humphrey. I haven't played Heroes or Shadow, but I'm alright with his portrayal in Heroes, David Humphrey was still doing the voice, and it felt like he had the same personality he did in SA2. 

 

 

But then this game came along and Shadow's reputation honestly never improved since It added aliens into his back story for no good reason, Jason Griffith sounded way too monotone and overly serious as Shadow, and the character just honestly devolved into an anti-hero stereotype. Ever since 06, he only shows up in minor roles, just acting dark for the sake of acting dark(Black Knight doesn't count.)

 

As long as Sonic Team can make him a likeable character again and make him feel unique to Sonic, I'm perfectly fine with him returning, maybe even in a playable role. Shadow is one of my favorite characters pre his spinoff game, but he's pretty much became the butt of several jokes involving the Sonic franchise.

 

Ok...StH is the ONLY game where Shadow is blatantly a "dark & edgy" character. There is no other game where he appears that tries to be dark as much as this game did aside from possibly 06. Ever since, like you said, he's been in minor roles so how the HELL is he acting "dark" in anyway?

 

What about him is "dark" that you are deriding him about?

[FalconKick]

Listen I'll just be brief: To keep any character relevant, you have to be willing to be flexible with said character, fans and IP legalities be damned. Sometimes, a boy scout gotta be a little naughty and sometimes, an egomaniacal, clinically depressive hedgehog will have start being...less depressed.

 

Doesn't matter if it's Sonic, Superman, Captain America, Lupin the 3rd or Little Red Riding Hood, to keep a character fresh, writers have to explore other aspects of a character to flesh him/her/it/shim out. In other words, you have to retool a character. It doesn't have to be drastic: even something banal such as drinking a cup of coffee or enjoying television would do a WARRUDO of wonder for Shadow. Imagine if he actually had a laugh (like I did..it would probably creep you out )

 

Of course there will be those who cling to his "blahness" because that is what they found appealing, but if writers are not willing to experiment, than you're not getting anywhere. And if you're not getting anywhere, then it's time to give Mr. Ultimate Lifeform his pink slip....or maybe just an extended vacation, until someone CAN do something with him. And this is just the character, we haven't even gotten to his gameplay.

 

I would go further but not tonight. I'll see you when the next volley of "debates" have settled. 

 

COME ON! BLUUUUUUEEEE FAL~CON!! AWAAAAAYYYY

[Chaos Incarnate]

Ok...StH is the ONLY game where Shadow is blatantly a "dark & edgy" character. There is no other game where he appears that tries to be dark as much as this game did aside from possibly 06. Ever since, like you said, he's been in minor roles so how the HELL is he acting "dark" in anyway?

 

What about him is "dark" that you are deriding him about?

Please calm down. Let's see, I can think of a couple reasons.

 

1: Vocal performances by both Kirk Thornton and Jason Griffith. As I said, Griffith is really monotone, while Kirk is just rough and hushed. I think Kirk Thornton has a lot of potential, but that's how he sounds.

2: It's just the vibe I get from Shadow, seeing him standing around crossing his arms, etc. It's so easy to see I can't explain it, the character currently is the epitome of " dark stereotype".

[Kuzu]

Please calm down. Let's see, I can think of a couple reasons.

 

1: Vocal performances by both Kirk Thornton and Jason Griffith. As I said, Griffith is really monotone, while Kirk is just rough and hushed. I think Kirk Thornton has a lot of potential, but that's how he sounds.

2: It's just the vibe I get from Shadow, seeing him standing around crossing his arms, etc. It's so easy to see I can't explain it, the character currently is the epitome of " dark stereotype".

 

1. Vocal performances are not indicative of tone of something being "dark", its just a voice. Shadow is a soft spoken character, so naturally he needs a voice to reflect that, that doesn't make him a "dark" character.

 

2. You have a really shallow understanding of what "dark" concepts are if the best reason you can come up with for claiming them are "folding your arms". Knuckles folds his arms, Sonic folds his arms so does that make them dark stereotypes too?

 

 

Fact is; Shadow has not been a "dark" character since forever. Every game he's been in really isn't all that dark, and Shadow himself doesn't even have that large of a role in them. Are you really going to tell me games like Black Knight, Free Riders, Rivals & Colors are dark? 

[Chaos Incarnate]

1. Vocal performances are not indicative of tone of something being "dark", its just a voice. Shadow is a soft spoken character, so naturally he needs a voice to reflect that, that doesn't make him a "dark" character.

 

2. You have a really shallow understanding of what "dark" concepts are if the best reason you can come up with for claiming them are "folding your arms". Knuckles folds his arms, Sonic folds his arms so does that make them dark stereotypes too?

 

 

Fact is; Shadow has not been a "dark" character since forever. Every game he's been in really isn't all that dark, and Shadow himself doesn't even have that large of a role in them. Are you really going to tell me games like Black Knight, Free Riders, Rivals & Colors are dark? 

1: Um. yeah it is. Vocal performances can easily shape how a character is perceived, I think Jason Griffith's lines and voice combined are obvious of that

2: Christ, there's no need to be rude over something I said that had a bit more meaning to it. Shadow's always standing around with just a dark look on his face,  folding his arms. Only difference is, Sonic and Knuckles are usually in a good mood. What's Shadow's reason for acting the way he does, didn't he put his past behind him at the end of his own game?

 

You need to stop getting so worked up over someone's opinion on a character. As I've said before, I liked Shadow a lot in SA2 and Heroes, and even Black Knight to an extent, I just don't like how he's been portrayed since his own game.

Edited September 3, 2013 by Chaos Incarnate

[Tara]

Shadow is one of my favorite characters pre his spinoff game, but he's pretty much became the butt of several jokes involving the Sonic franchise.

Now, to completely contradict everything I just said like a total moron...

I think that Shadow could drastically be written better if instead of trying to make him dark and serious, they should work with the ridiculousness of his character just a tad.  Not make him a flat out parody, mind you, but that "Where's that damn fourth Chaos Emerald?" line could have actually been its own level of comedic badass under the right pretenses.

 

True, but I'm even admitting my least favorite Turtles are still Turtles. It's more a matter of preference of certain incarnations over others. But like I said, I see potential that can be mined even from a version I don't like and flipped around into something I enjoy (see my thoughts on Krang).

My main point was just that it's not convincing to use different versions of the same characters to justify how it could be written in one medium.  I know that cross-canon integration has happened with other franchises in the past, but as far as I'm aware, Sonic's approach is far too different than Turtles to consider taking one canon's characterization and adapting it to the other.  I've not heard many good things about the game adaptations in Archie, so... I don't know anymore.

 

You might be surprsied, but I think Archie Sonic is leaning more toward SEGA Sonic than he used to (when he started out as some weird combo of "Adventures" Sonic and "SatAM" Sonic). I presume that's because SEGA is a little more active in reviewing stories and trying to line things up with the source material, while still offering something new that you wouldn't see in the games (new characters, a serial narrative, etc.). Yeah, there's still some unique characterizations, but it's thankfully gotten away from the lousy "teen drama" nonsense that plagued the book for a few years.

I've been meaning to get into it for a long time but having to flip through 200+ issues plus all the spin-offs and alternate series has seriously made me intimidated.  Plus, time constraints and all. XD - I'd love to be able actually discuss Archie's ever-expanding canon in depth, but that looks like something I may have to miss out on.

 

Growth isn't an explainable reason? Remember the end of Shadow's game? He put his past behind him, and was seeking something new? I think ChaosSupremeSonîc brought up some good examples, particularly with Free Riders. I haven't played the game, but I've watched the cutscenes (and I'm sure I'm not the only one who has) and Shadow isn't this obnoxious, whiny, melodramatic character he was back in 2005. He's surprisingly mellow and easy going, with a strong competitive streak. He's still fairly serious, but it's also kind of funny because you see this character that's focused mostly on his goals, but then he ends up (unintentionally) looking funny because of his interactions with his teammates and the other competitors (particularly Team Rose--for a guy who doesn't care, he sure as hell doesn't want to lose to them).

I don't think the games universe needs a reboot to justify Shadow being "different." I'm just asking for him to be written with the same level of respect as Sonic, and I honestly ask that for all characters, not just Shadow. I just want to be in the underdog's corner because people would want to see a potentially good character gone citing the same tired examples, relevant or not (it's the same reason I hate when people bring up Sonic '06 as why Sonic games suck).

I was referring to being... like... quite a bit more different.  I guess I'll have to watch Free Riders' cutscenes to make a full assessment.

 

Eh, whether or not it happens I guess isn't really up to us. SEGA seems to have a fear of utilizing ANY characters that aren't Sonic, Tails and Eggman (and the surprisingly well received Orbot and Cubot it seems)lately in mainstream games. While that's fine and all, to a point, don't you get sick of seeing just them? Let's mix up and rotate the cast around and let everyone shine a bit. I'd rather the cast in general shake the "shitty friend" blanket critique some people like to throw around (and just to be clear, I'm not accusing you of this, it's just the general word that goes around and I see it applied to every character that's not the above listed characters).

 

It's not that I'm against having a vast variety of characters or having different characters become more dominant than others every so once in awhile.  Variety is the spice of life and all that tripe.  I just don't want characters to be forced into a narrative where they either don't belong or treated as background fodder for every appearance they do manage to receive.

 

Yeah, Sonic Team is always in a weird position. I agree, it sucked seeing characters get shoehorned in for the sake of it (did Blaze really need to be in '06?) and then they ultimately contribute nothing to the plots and just feel like they're hanging around. And it's just as bad when they're basically shoved off to the side, relegated to token appearances in spin-offs and you don't get a chance to see them grow or develop. I think the best remedy, as explained above (and I think I saw it in another topic somewhere on this board), would be to rotate the cast a little let them shine next to Sonic. They don't have to be there all the time, but they shouldn't be put in a box and forgotten.

 

I'm all for rotating the cast as well, and I pretty much stated my full opinion on how to properly do so in the other topic.

 

I'm sorry if it looks like I'm accusing you of that. I'm not, and I don't mean to. I'm just arguing for a character I'd like to see more of, and see him improve. The writers just have to actually use that damned potential (and again, this applies to the WHOLE CAST).

Oh, I didn't think you or anyone else was blatantly accusing me of it.  I just wanted to state my viewpoint so as to avoid any confusion. ^_~

[UltDevilDoom]

I'm not getting into this argument heavily because I have better things to do with my time. Simply put, I like Shadow and I think he adds a lot to the series. I understand that some people don't, but I think much (but not all) of the hate towards him is just whining. Give me a more practical argument beyond the "dark stereotype" stuff and the "I just hate him for (insert pointless complain here)", and I will look at it.

 

Otherwise, do not bother because I will not respond.

[Kuzu]

1: Um. yeah it is. Vocal performances can easily shape how a character is perceived, I think Jason Griffith's lines and voice combined are obvious of that

2: Christ, there's no need to be rude over something I said that had a bit more meaning to it. Shadow's always standing around with just a dark look on his face,  folding his arms. Only difference is, Sonic and Knuckles are usually in a good mood. What's Shadow's reason for acting the way he does, didn't he put his past behind him at the end of his own game?

 

You need to stop getting so worked up over someone's opinion on a character. As I've said before, I liked Shadow a lot in SA2 and Heroes, and even Black Knight to an extent, I just don't like how he's been portrayed since his own game.

 

1. Yes, and as I said, Shadow is a soft-spoken character and his voice reflects that. How does being soft-spoken make a character "dark"?

 

2. Because I don't think you don't understand Shadow's personality; the reason he's so serious is because of the trauma from his past, which while he's gotten over it, he is still a vigilant character and always tries to stay sharp. Just because he's a serious character does not make him a "dark" character. Nor does him getting over his past meant he was just going to suddenly go over a massive personality shift. 

 

The reason I'm arguing this point because your stated reasons for why Shadow is a "dark" character don't make much sense and mostly are rooted in a game that came out over five years ago rather than in the present. At present, Shadow is hardly what I'd call a "dark" character because he hasn't had a prominent role to do anything dark. So saying he's "too dark" at the moment makes nooo type of sense.

Edited September 3, 2013 by Azure Yakuzu

[Chaos Incarnate]

1. Yes, and as I said, Shadow is a soft-spoken character and his voice reflects that. How does being soft-spoken make a character "dark"?

 

2. Because I don't think you don't understand Shadow's personality; the reason he's so serious is because of the trauma from his past, which while he's gotten over it, he is still a vigilant character and always tries to stay sharp. Just because he's a serious character does not make him a "dark" character. Nor does him getting over his past meant he was just going to suddenly go over a massive personality shift. 

 

The reason I'm arguing this point because your stated reasons for why Shadow is a "dark" character don't make much sense and mostly are rooted in a game that came out over five years ago rather than in the present. At present, Shadow is hardly what I'd call a "dark" character because he hasn't had a prominent role to do anything dark.

Shadow's got a bad rap for being a dark character, I just call it like I see it. Sorry if I couldn't fully explain it, that's just the vibe I get from Shadow, sorry. No need to say things like I don't understand the character and my opinion is shallow. I was just expressing my general thoughts on a character, and a lot of people agree with the sentiment that he's been needlessly dark for a while.

 

There's been too much arguing over others' opinions in this thread, I'm jumping ship for a while.

 

Peace.

[Kuzu]

Shadow's got a bad rap for being a dark character, I just call it like I see it. Sorry if I couldn't fully explain it, that's just the vibe I get from Shadow, sorry. No need to say things like I don't understand the character and my opinion is shallow. I was just expressing my general thoughts on a character, and a lot of people agree with the sentiment that he's been needlessly dark for a while.

 

There's been too much arguing over others' opinions in this thread, I'm jumping ship for a while.

 

Peace.

 

I don't have anything personally wrong with your opinion of Shadow, I was just merely explaining the complaint how he's "too dark" isn't much of a complaint because he hasn't done anything dark at all. I mean, what about him currently is too dark for the series and a reason on why he should be sidelined for a while? 

 

If you can't explain it cool, just think about what you say then because you might end up saying something you don't mean.

Edited September 3, 2013 by Azure Yakuzu

[Aquaslash]

Shadow's got a bad rap for being a dark character, I just call it like I see it. Sorry if I couldn't fully explain it, that's just the vibe I get from Shadow, sorry. No need to say things like I don't understand the character and my opinion is shallow. I was just expressing my general thoughts on a character, and a lot of people agree with the sentiment that he's been needlessly dark for a while.

 

There's been too much arguing over others' opinions in this thread, I'm jumping ship for a while.

 

Peace.

Sooo you wasted three posts on an ignorant statement and tried to hide behind the guise of "it's my opinion so free speech lalala" to try to cover the fact that you have no idea what you're talking about.

 

 

k.

 

At any rate, Shadow's about as dark as an average MLP villain (IE not at all).  I don't know if you've bothered to play or research any Sonic game past his own, but in the three games he's had any real story role in (06, Rivals 2, Free Riders) he's generally portrayed as a no nonsense dude, albeit a bit of a bully, who does things how he feels, while at the same time, having a strong sense to loyalty/trust to those that are dear to him (basically Rouge and Omega).  Last I checked, being a jerk doesn't automatically make you a "dark" character.  If anything, these deadly six guys are far "darker" than Shadow's ever been, and they're in the most colorful Sonic game since well..Colors.

[ultim8life4rm]

I can't really say that I want to off any of the main cast. If anything, I'd say the Babylon Rogues, they probably won't make another Riders game anyway.

 

But if SEGA could stop adding random characters like Chip or Elise, maybe there would be more time to develop the less-developed characters.

 

Seriously, what is Chip even supposed to be? And how did they come up with that?