Characters you don't want to return

[Zavok the SpinningSilver]

 

So what does Cream have to offer everyone, let alone Amy? Her flying is not up-par with Tails, but ANYONE STRONG ENOUGH TO LIFT BIG THE CAT can't be all useless.

 

She was cheating. Big's just...big. Froggy's the really heavy one.

 

 

Froggy really needs to sample a salad bar. Big should leave him behind until he does so, that way he doesn't slow the big guy down.

 

Also, why shouldn't the Deadly Six become re - occurring villains? They have potential from what we've seen so far to become so, at least half of them.

Edited September 14, 2013 by Zavok

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

He's just being spiteful towards anything associated with Lost World, when he probably wouldn't be as saying that otherwise.

[Kuzu]

He's saying this for attention people, just ignore him and he'll stop when he realizes nobody cares.

[Chaos Incarnate]

I think most people seem annoyed with him. Until they find a better way to explain things, he is still going to most likely be the one that can explain how to do things. There is no calm tikal voice to do it anymore, unlike in SA1.

I'd love to see a tutorial character voiced by Kirk Thornton using his Orobt voice. You can't really have Orbot as the tutorial character since he works for Eggman, but wouldn't you love to have a game taught to you by a British butler? I know I sure would.

[Tara]

I'd like "tutorial characters" to just stop appearing altogether.  Preferably, I'd like Sega to attempt to teach gameplay mechanics through actual gameplay.  See Egoraptor's Sequelitis video for more on that-

 

NSFW language and stuff so don't watch this in the middle of a board meeting or something.

 

 

If they can't do that, then just put a sign there or something, but I'd rather they limit or abstain from gameplay mechanics which require lengthy explanation anyway.  On that note, the tutorial stages were the worst in Unleashed.  The absolute worst.  There is literally nothing worse.

Edited September 14, 2013 by Akito

[Jet Prower]

The main reason they have to keep putting tutorial missions in the games and lessons and all that is for the little kids that if they aren't spoon fed every little instruction, will get mad at having to learn something on their own and will storm away. That's why so many games have become so straightforward, and linear, because these kids can't seem to grasp any form of difficulty in games these days from what I see.

[Diogenes]

I'd like "tutorial characters" to just stop appearing altogether.  Preferably, I'd like Sega to attempt to teach gameplay mechanics through actual gameplay.

I think that should always be the first method, but explicit tutorials still have a place; I don't think every aspect of every game can be communicated elegantly through gameplay, and it's a backup system if teach-through-gameplay fails on certain points for certain people.

The main reason they have to keep putting tutorial missions in the games and lessons and all that is for the little kids that if they aren't spoon fed every little instruction, will get mad at having to learn something on their own and will storm away. That's why so many games have become so straightforward, and linear, because these kids can't seem to grasp any form of difficulty in games these days from what I see.

Man I'm getting tired of seeing this be blamed on kids. It reeks of a superiority circlejerk just because we played a bunch of shitty, obtuse old games. Zeldas 1 and 2 being practically brick walls to new players isn't better design than Skyward Sword constantly tutorializing.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

I think that should always be the first method, but explicit tutorials still have a place; I don't think every aspect of every game can be communicated elegantly through gameplay, and it's a backup system if teach-through-gameplay fails on certain points for certain people.

Man I'm getting tired of seeing this be blamed on kids. It reeks of a superiority circlejerk just because we played a bunch of shitty, obtuse old games. Zeldas 1 and 2 being practically brick walls to new players isn't better design than Skyward Sword constantly tutorializing.

Inorite? It's like people forget they were kids once, and were likely in a similar position once upon a time.

[Tara]

The main reason they have to keep putting tutorial missions in the games and lessons and all that is for the little kids that if they aren't spoon fed every little instruction, will get mad at having to learn something on their own and will storm away. That's why so many games have become so straightforward, and linear, because these kids can't seem to grasp any form of difficulty in games these days from what I see.

I don't think any kids, no matter how young or spoiled by modern technology, would get upset because he can't figure out that you press A. to jump or move the control stick forward to go forward.  You know, basic actions of the game like that.  If you've been playing a game for more than two seconds, there are some things that are just instinctive to you and you shouldn't have to be told every bloody thing without the least bit of experimentation.

 

I think that should always be the first method, but explicit tutorials still have a place; I don't think every aspect of every game can be communicated elegantly through gameplay, and it's a backup system if teach-through-gameplay fails on certain points for certain people.

And that's fine, but forcing them on a player as in Team Rose's playthrough in Heroes and the first five hours of Sonic Unleashed is just... aggravating, to say the least.

[Jet Prower]

Man I'm getting tired of seeing this be blamed on kids. It reeks of a superiority circlejerk just because we played a bunch of shitty, obtuse old games. Zeldas 1 and 2 being practically brick walls to new players isn't better design than Skyward Sword constantly tutorializing.

 

The main reason so many people do blame it on them is because we grew up in a different time when we didn't need these. Now you hear about all these people that complain so much if a game doesn't have one, it just sounds like these people dont even know how to press a button anymore. I know its not all kids ok, so stop with the jerk calling. I'm just saying that it used to be, we had to figure it out. Yes, there needs to be some instruction on what to do, but not to the point where these days it has come down to follow the line and you will never ever get lost. Like the games are hand walking players through or otherwise they wouldn't have a clue. Some of it goes to developers yes thinking everyone is stupid, but so many people have proven that they need it, that can you blame them?

[Zavok the SpinningSilver]

I don't think any kids, no matter how young or spoiled by modern technology, would get upset because he can't figure out that you press A. to jump or move the control stick forward to go forward.  You know, basic actions of the game like that.  If you've been playing a game for more than two seconds, there are some things that are just instinctive to you and you shouldn't have to be told every bloody thing without the least bit of experimentation.

 

And that's fine, but forcing them on a player as in Team Rose's playthrough in Heroes and the first five hours of Sonic Unleashed is just... aggravating, to say the least.

 

I'd personally place Team Rose's tutorial stage as higher annoyance than...Unleashed...

Wait. There was only one tutorial stage in the game? Unless you're talking about those stupid intro missions in the Wii / PS2 version...

 

Yeah. I can see why you'd hate them.

[Uraraka]

The Deadly Six. Sonic Team should try to move as far away from SLW as possible for future games.

   Honestly, I feel like it is too early to truly judge them as to whether or not they are valuable character to the series . I mean, I was a little turned off about them at first, but , to be fair, I want to give them a chance and see where they may go from there. Who knows, they could be cooler than we imagine .

  (Sorry, I did not mean to drag this on )

  Anyway, when it comes to Omochao, I enjoy him , especially in Sonic Adventure 2,where you can run him over and stuff... . He has a annoying voice if nothing else

    I personally like tutorial characters, because I really stink at video games .... but I do know they can leave out stupid tutorials, such as "press A to jump!", because almost every game in existence, makes you press A to jump!! Unless they were to make the X button the jump button, everyone knows that basic control already .

Edited September 14, 2013 by knucklesgirl

[Mogtaki]

She was cheating. Big's just...big. Froggy's the really heavy one.

 

 

 

Uhhh, off-topic a little, but why is Amy flying too? I didn't exactly look at that series, so what's going on?

 

But on topic, I wouldn't mind if Cream went, I mean...she's there for the moe element and it's kind of creepy that guys probably 'loooooove' that on the internet somewhere.

[Chaos Incarnate]

   Honestly, I feel like it is too early to truly judge them as to whether or not they are valuable character to the series . I mean, I was a little turned off about them at first, but , to be fair, I want to give them a chance and see where they may go from there. Who knows, they could be cooler than we imagine .

He was just wanted attention, the dude got banned anyway. He loves to constantly bring up his Lost World hatred. 

 

I initially didn't like their designs when the game was announced, but they're all growing on me. They fit the incredibly cartoony tone of Lost World, we just haven't caught wind of their perosnalities yet. I look forward to seeing what they bring to the table. I just haven't bothered to memorize their names yet, since they all start with Z .

[Tara]

I'd personally place Team Rose's tutorial stage as higher annoyance than...Unleashed...

Wait. There was only one tutorial stage in the game? Unless you're talking about those stupid intro missions in the Wii / PS2 version...

 

Yeah. I can see why you'd hate them.

Yeah, I was referring to those intro missions in the SD versions.  Did they really have to separate every minor gameplay mechanic into a separate mission?

[Zavok the SpinningSilver]

Uhhh, off-topic a little, but why is Amy flying too? I didn't exactly look at that series, so what's going on?

 

But on topic, I wouldn't mind if Cream went, I mean...she's there for the moe element and it's kind of creepy that guys probably 'loooooove' that on the internet somewhere.

 

Amy's flying because... wait. What? WHAT?! How'd she...I'd never...

 

 

WHAT IS THIS?! I've read this issue many times and I never noticed she mysteriously gained levitation powers! How could I have missed that?!

 

On topic, really? I'd love for Cream to stay, and this is coming from someone that despises moe. She makes a pretty good sidekick for Amy imo, aside from her obvious comparisons to Tails. She's the innocence that would keep the characters from losing their heads,  specifically reeling Amy back in line if she steps out.

 

Of course her time on screen so to speak will sometimes lead to some..rather sweet moments, but i guess that comes with the territory.

[HippyAmy]

I think most people seem annoyed with him. Until they find a better way to explain things, he is still going to most likely be the one that can explain how to do things. There is no calm tikal voice to do it anymore, unlike in SA1.

 

Yeah but we don't really need something or somebody to explain things all that much. Watch for a example of this.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FpigqfcvlM&oref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D8FpigqfcvlM

 

Contains harsh language.

[Tara]

Yeah but we don't really need something or somebody to explain things all that much. Watch for a example of this.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FpigqfcvlM&oref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D8FpigqfcvlM

 

Contains harsh language.

That awkward moment when I already linked to that only a few posts above...?

 

But yeah, I agree.  I'd prefer if they stuck to teaching through gameplay as much as possible.  Or at the very least, make the tutorial stage completely optional.  As Diogenes said, some gameplay mechanics are not easy to instruct through gameplay alone so some sort of straightforward explanation may be inevitable, but as Sonic is a game that prides itself in fast-paced platforming and is not (usually) an RPG, I personally think that any mechanic which requires a novel to be written about it in order for players to understand it should probably be reworked.  That's not a particularly glaring problem in the series, but the verbosity and poor pacing of the forced tutorial stages really do make them a dread to play.

Edited September 17, 2013 by Akito

[Neon The Hedgehog]

The main reason they have to keep putting tutorial missions in the games and lessons and all that is for the little kids that if they aren't spoon fed every little instruction, will get mad at having to learn something on their own and will storm away. That's why so many games have become so straightforward, and linear, because these kids can't seem to grasp any form of difficulty in games these days from what I see.

          I agree with this. Plus not everyone is a sonic or video game expert. I think tutorials are there for the first timers most of all. If you were playing a video game for the first time wouldn't you want a little extra help? If I was a first timer of games this would happen:"why wont the xbox turn on? What the heck does this button do?!?!!! " (console breaks).

          Anyway, I am going to throw in which character I don't want to see again, then join the discussion on a later post. This is just my personal opinion and I don't mean to offend anyone who feels differently. But the character I don't really want to see again is Jet the Hawk. He just rubs me the wrong way, I don't have a clear reason why. His personality is kind of nasty but not in a fun or entertaining way (Like how some bad guy characters are likable while still being bad. Not that Jet is technically a bad guy.). I don't dislike the Free rider games. Its cool to fly through the air on a board and race against your friends. But I think I would enjoy it more if Jet were not in it...

Edited September 18, 2013 by Neon The Hedgehog

[Tara]

          I agree with this. Plus not everyone is a sonic or video game expert. I think tutorials are there for the first timers most of all. If you were playing a video game for the first time wouldn't you want a little extra help? If I was a first timer of games this would happen:"why wont the xbox turn on? What the heck does this button do?!?!!! " (console breaks).

How many first time gamers do you know that come in completely blind to the experience?  At least 99% of the time, people get into playing video games either as a result of being raised alongside them or having watched someone else (friend, sibling, etc.) play them.  Also, we have instruction manuals for teaching basic gameplay mechanics and system operations.

Edited September 18, 2013 by Akito

[Jet Prower]

How many first time gamers do you know that come in completely blind to the experience?  At least 99% of the time, people get into playing video games either as a result of being raised alongside them or having watched someone else (friend, sibling, etc.) play them.  Also, we have instruction manuals for teaching basic gameplay mechanics and system operations.

 

If people would actually read the manuals that is. That's why older games and even some newer games, the manuals seem to get lost so easily because people lose them or just ditch them. Lately with many newer games that I've gotten there may be a manual or the manual that is there is barely there at all because it is so short now. I do know alot of people do know something about games before they play now of course. I guess the main complaint to all this is that people don't like that games these days are way too easy to where the developers spoon feed some of us to where we almost feel we are being insulted by how much they think they need to help us and walk is through the game.

 

 

As for the Jet the hawk comment, yeah, I have never like him for the obvious reason of the name first of all. I was Jet for at least a year before Jet the hawk showed up in the first game and I was kind of mad when he showed up with the same name. I never liked his attitude either and I never cared for the way Wave treats Tails either. She's a bird and you are a fox, chase her down Tails is what I always wanted to say =P

[Tara]

If people would actually read the manuals that is. That's why older games and even some newer games, the manuals seem to get lost so easily because people lose them or just ditch them. Lately with many newer games that I've gotten there may be a manual or the manual that is there is barely there at all because it is so short now. I do know alot of people do know something about games before they play now of course. I guess the main complaint to all this is that people don't like that games these days are way too easy to where the developers spoon feed some of us to where we almost feel we are being insulted by how much they think they need to help us and walk is through the game.

I always thought the reason manuals were lost so easily was because back then, video games didn't come in handy little cases where you could store everything in.  Also, the reason nobody reads the manual is generally due to their sensibilities being already being up to par.  If someone came in completely blind to the experience, they would undoubtedly read the manual if they felt it was necessary.

 

Also, the reason manuals are so small lately is because you don't need a huge instruction manual anymore.  Heck, you hardly need any instruction manual anymore.  The internet has essentially replaced it, and even if someone doesn't have internet access, they more than likely have at least one person they can ask if they don't know about these things.

[Neon The Hedgehog]

I always thought the reason manuals were lost so easily was because back then, video games didn't come in handy little cases where you could store everything in.  Also, the reason nobody reads the manual is generally due to their sensibilities being already being up to par.  If someone came in completely blind to the experience, they would undoubtedly read the manual if they felt it was necessary.

 

Also, the reason manuals are so small lately is because you don't need a huge instruction manual anymore.  Heck, you hardly need any instruction manual anymore.  The internet has essentially replaced it, and even if someone doesn't have internet access, they more than likely have at least one person they can ask if they don't know about these things.

         I'm not saying your wrong, this is more from a friendly debate standpoint. What about the older generation, or those who did not grow up with video games? They are not used to it like we are. Sure they have the means to turn the game on, but they could use some tips as to which buttons to push to do what when they actually play the game. I tried playing Generations with my older sister and she had a rough time with it at first (she basically thought it was a good idea to have classic sonic stand on the spikes. I had to walk her through it while trying to not laugh my head off). If someone is playing a sonic game for the first time and does not know what to do then they will get frustrated. Leading them to not play the game or buy any more in the future. Making Sega lose some sales. Going on the internet and looking up the facts is just too much effort for some people. They paid for a game and they expect that game to tell them how to play it.

                      Plus each sonic game is different from the next. There are either new controls to use to do new things or different buttons to push for the same action depending on the game. For instance, on the xbox you press different buttons in generations to do the homing attack than you do in Sonic Unleashed. Tutorials let us know what is the same or different between each game.

         Are tutorials annoying to the seasoned gamer? Yes. But in a way are they kind of necessary? Sort of.

Edited September 18, 2013 by Neon The Hedgehog

[Tara]

         I'm not saying your wrong, this is more from a friendly debate standpoint. What about the older generation, or those who did not grow up with video games? They are not used to it like we are. Sure they have the means to turn the game on, but they could use some tips as to which buttons to push to do what when they actually play the game. I tried playing Generations with my older sister and she had a rough time with it at first (she basically thought it was a good idea to have classic sonic stand on the spikes. I had to walk her through it while trying to not laugh my head off). If someone is playing a sonic game for the first time and does not know what to do then they will get frustrated. Leading them to not play the game or buy any more in the future. Making Sega lose some sales. Going on the internet and looking up the facts is just too much effort for some people. They paid for a game and they expect that game to tell them how to play it.

The point of a video game is to experiment to see what you can and can not do.  That's how you gain the sensibilities of a seasoned player to begin with.  Also, in this day and age, we have browsers built into our consoles.  There's hardly any excuse to not look something up if you don't understand it.  Yes, I understand that newer technology is not always accessible to the older generation, but that's a considerably smaller profit margin.  Also, I find that, in general, in-game tutorials don't help improve sensibilities anyway.  They tell you how to do something, but practice still remains the only way you can get a feel for the controller and a clear understanding of basic game mechanics.

 

 

 

        Plus each sonic game is different from the next. There are either new controls to use to do new things or different buttons to push for the same action depending on the game. For instance, on the xbox you press different buttons in generations to do the homing attack than you do in Sonic Unleashed. Tutorials let us know what is the same or different between each game.

 

 

Those differences are hardly enough to warrant an entire tutorial stage as the basics remain primarily the same.  It's not like you can't just put the control scheme in the options menu or something.

 

 

 

         Are tutorials annoying to the seasoned gamer? Yes. But in a way are they kind of necessary? Sort of.

 

 

But if that's going to be the case, they should always be optional.  Barring Team Rose's playthrough, that's at least where Sonic Heroes shines.  (Although they sort of ruin it by having the characters frequently remind you of basic gameplay elements all the way through the game just to make sure you heard them right the first ten thousand times)  All it takes is a little window or something that says "Would you like to start in a tutorial stage so you can learn the basics of the game?  Yes or no?"  Click no and you skip it.  That way it's easily accessible if you really feel you need it, but not in the way for people who have been playing the games since before they could even spell their own names and already know how to move the control stick forward.

 

Also, this white highlight on my text is getting on my nerves.  Why, IPB?!  Why?! D=

[Uraraka]

         I'm not saying your wrong, this is more from a friendly debate standpoint. What about the older generation, or those who did not grow up with video games? They are not used to it like we are. Sure they have the means to turn the game on, but they could use some tips as to which buttons to push to do what when they actually play the game. I tried playing Generations with my older sister and she had a rough time with it at first (she basically thought it was a good idea to have classic sonic stand on the spikes. I had to walk her through it while trying to not laugh my head off). If someone is playing a sonic game for the first time and does not know what to do then they will get frustrated. Leading them to not play the game or buy any more in the future. Making Sega lose some sales. Going on the internet and looking up the facts is just too much effort for some people. They paid for a game and they expect that game to tell them how to play it.

                      Plus each sonic game is different from the next. There are either new controls to use to do new things or different buttons to push for the same action depending on the game. For instance, on the xbox you press different buttons in generations to do the homing attack than you do in Sonic Unleashed. Tutorials let us know what is the same or different between each game.

         Are tutorials annoying to the seasoned gamer? Yes. But in a way are they kind of necessary? Sort of.

   Usually, tips are not only for Controls. Sometimes the tips given in the game by a guide character is interesting trivia that adds to the story, or for helping you find that ridiculous last emerald piece hidden on the other side of the map. Maybe you are stuck in a level, and omochao leaves you a tip. That is basically what he did. Perhaps instead of omitting tip givers, they could give an option to disable it? I was just adding to Neon's argument, because, like her sister, my ability to control Sonic always lands me on spikes .

  And on the topic of manuals, I used to love the long, detailed manuals! I dunno, when you pay 40+ dollars for a game, a manual with character intros and tips would not be a bad gift. I especially like manuals that include the in depth character profiles and story lines. Who wants to go type in a URL that is complicated just to "enjoy" what should have been there already? I really don't carry 2 page manuals around in case I have a chance to look it up on the computer .