Characters you don't want to return

[Furie]

There are a few characters I never want to come back, but most of all Shadow.

 

I cannot stand the constant appearences of Shadow. He's essentially an organic version of Metal Sonic (so ironically, he's totally irrelevant anyway) and his narrative function was finished properly in SA2.

 

That should have been it. Shadow should have turned in and vanished. But no, he stars in his own laughably bad game (touting guns of all things), which severely tarnished Sonic's reputation for a very long time.

 

Shadow is simply at a point where it's enough in my eyes. I would be totally happy to never see him again with his moody-dark atmosphere and lameness. And yes, you could make the argument of 'just improve his writing' but that won't work now. Shadow's character has been designed and built with the explicit purpose of 'ooh dearie me dark grim'. Seeing him in any other way, after him being like this for years, would just be comical. Enough is enough.

 

He's the big face of the overcrowding of Sonic's friends: he has no genuine relevance and he's literally only still around for fanservice.

Edited September 5, 2013 by Furie

[Scar]

Shadow hasn't appeared in a game proper since 06. Or Black Knight if you could that. Its been 4 years since Black Knight, and 7 Years since 06. Can't really complain about him being around too much for fanservice, because hardly any character has appeared in recent games.

 

The character needs to be rewritten. He needs to transcend the reputation of the "token badass", that was designed to appeal to 13 year old children who think that he's "mature". 

[Furie]

Shadow hasn't appeared in a game proper since 06. Or Black Knight if you could that. Its been 4 years since Black Knight, and 7 Years since 06. Can't really complain about him being around too much for fanservice, because hardly any character has appeared in recent games.

 

The character needs to be rewritten. He needs to transcend the reputation of the "token badass", that was designed to appeal to 13 year old children who think that he's "mature". 

 

He was in Generations too remember. And yes, whilst he probably had a place there as a boss, he was also in the Time Eater cutscene (the most terrible scene in the game).

 

The character just needs to be axed. He needs to just plod off and be replaced with Metal Sonic.

[spinny]

He was in Generations too remember. And yes, whilst he probably had a place there as a boss, he was also in the Time Eater cutscene (the most terrible scene in the game).

 

He does literally nothing but say "you gaht dis Sanik". How is that 'fanservice' when they're hardly even using him?

Edited September 5, 2013 by Super Spindash

[Vertekins]

He's the big face of the overcrowding of Sonic's friends

 

And this is why I'm more inclined to believe that Shadow is a convenient scapegoat.

 

Sonic's friends not being utilized well is in no way a fault of Shadow as a character. 2006 is the most egregious offender for 'overcrowding' if you mean that characters are badly incorporated yet I fail to see how Shadow's responsible for that in any way, shape or form.

[Furie]

He does literally nothing but say "you gaht dis Sanik". How is that 'fanservice' when they're hardly even using him?

 

That's the point, he's totally irrelevant and might as well not even be there since he serves no purpose.

 

The fact he is even in the cutscene is literally just Sonic Team using fanservice. Luckily, they used him as little as possible.

[Vertekins]

That's the point, he's totally irrelevant and might as well not even be there since he serves no purpose.

 

The fact he is even in the cutscene is literally just Sonic Team using fanservice. Luckily, they used him as little as possible.

 

So why are you picking on Shadow in particular when all the other characters are equally guilty 'offenders'?

[Furie]

And this is why I'm more inclined to believe that Shadow is a convenient scapegoat.

 

Sonic's friends not being utilized well is in no way a fault of Shadow as a character. 2006 is the most egregious offender for 'overcrowding' if you mean that characters are badly incorporated yet I fail to see how Shadow's responsible for that in any way, shape or form.

 

I said he's the face of overcrowding and that is exactly what he is.

 

He had a purpose in SA2, I'd admit that, but post-SA2 he is literally just Metal Sonic who can speak. He represents the fact the Sonic franchise has a gazillion versions of archetype characters.

So why are you picking on Shadow in particular when all the other characters are equally guilty 'offenders'?

 

I don't particularly like many of the characters, but at least they haven't dragged the series into the gutter like Shadow has. Him with his guns, terrible game, grim-dark dialogue and concept and faux-coolness.

[spinny]

He had a purpose in SA2, I'd admit that, but post-SA2 he is literally just Metal Sonic who can speak. He represents the fact the Sonic franchise has a gazillion versions of archetype characters.

 

Metal Sonic can speak. See: Heroes, Free Riders, the Olympics, Generations and maybe some other games that don't come to my mind right now.

 

Besides, Metal Sonic was a robotic copy of Sonic made by Eggman to defeat Sonic himself. Shadow was a compact version of the Biolizard, the ultimate life form; his creation wasn't really inspired by Sonic and he had hardly any relation until the military mistook him for Sonic in SA2. I see no issue with keeping him around; I mean, he's still an inhabitant of Sonic's world, after all. Just don't delve in too much.

[Vertekins]

I said he's the face of overcrowding and that is exactly what he is.

 

He had a purpose in SA2, I'd admit that, but post-SA2 he is literally just Metal Sonic who can speak. He represents the fact the Sonic franchise has a gazillion versions of archetype characters.

 

He doesn't represent the 'fact' any more than any other character.

 

You're just shoving your biases off on Shadow instead out of dislike for him.

 

And Shadow and Metal Sonic are two quite different characters. One is an obedient robot that supposedly serves as Eggman's greatest creation and is squarely evil and ruthless as well as being created to do Eggman's bidding and he has an innate desire to be superior to Sonic whilst the other is a character with free will, has a much friendlier if still tense relationship with Sonic and has allies he associates with as well as having no obsessive drive to be superior to Sonic.

[Furie]

Metal Sonic can speak. See: Heroes, Free Riders, the Olympics, Generations and maybe some other games that don't come to my mind right now.

 

Besides, Metal Sonic was a robotic copy of Sonic made by Eggman to defeat Sonic himself. Shadow was a compact version of the Biolizard, the ultimate life form; his creation wasn't really inspired by Sonic and he had hardly any relation until the military mistook him for Sonic in SA2. I see no issue with keeping him around; I mean, he's still an inhabitant of Sonic's world, after all. Just don't delve in too much.

 

He can speak, but in most of his appereances he doesn't, or at least has very little dialouge. Still, good point.

 

Metal Sonic and Shadow both serve as the archetype of Sonic's alterego. Both rival him in speed, strength and courage. The only difference is that Metal is robotoic (and thus actually makes more sense with the Nature and Industry theme the old games had) and Shadow is an organic doubbleganger (which made sense in SA2 since he was primary antagonist but now he is just an average rival).

 

Considering he is just like Metal Sonic, except he has no legitimate reason to actually be opposed to Sonic now (as Metal does), he's completely pointless. He was clearly designed to die in SA2. Sonic Team fucked up big time in folding to fan pressure.

He doesn't represent the 'fact' any more than any other character.

 

You're just shoving your biases off on Shadow instead out of dislike for him.

 

And Shadow and Metal Sonic are two quite different characters. One is an obedient robot that supposedly serves as Eggman's greatest creation and is squarely evil and ruthless as well as being created to do Eggman's bidding and he has an innate desire to be superior to Sonic whilst the other is a character with free will, has a much friendlier if still tense relationship with Sonic and has allies he associates with as well as having no obsessive drive to be superior to Sonic.

 

He's the first character to really do it, that's the point.

 

And he's also the first (and perhaps only) character to experiment so horribly with the franchise. He's instrumental in the downfall the series had.

Edited September 5, 2013 by Furie

[Scar]

He was in Generations too remember. And yes, whilst he probably had a place there as a boss, he was also in the Time Eater cutscene (the most terrible scene in the game).

 

The character just needs to be axed. He needs to just plod off and be replaced with Metal Sonic.

 

Every character was bad in Generations and in that Time Eater cutscene.

 

I said he's the face of overcrowding and that is exactly what he is.

No, Sonic Heroes is the face of overcrowding. Fuck, even Big the Cat is more likely to be the "face of overcrowding".

 

He had a purpose in SA2, I'd admit that, but post-SA2 he is literally just Metal Sonic who can speak. He represents the fact the Sonic franchise has a gazillion versions of archetype characters.

Removing Shadow won't make the rest of the characters any better.

 

I don't particularly like many of the characters, but at least they haven't dragged the series into the gutter like Shadow has. Him with his guns, terrible game, grim-dark dialogue and concept and faux-coolness.

Then make the character good. Make Shadow more than that. Make Shadow an interesting character again, even to detractors. It takes skill to reinvent a character and make them appealing or interesting. Chucking any character in the bin arbitrarily is lazy.

[Furie]

 

Every character was bad in Generations and in that Time Eater cutscene.

 

No, Sonic Heroes is the face of overcrowding. Fuck, even Big the Cat is more likely to be the "face of overcrowding".

 

Removing Shadow won't make the rest of the characters any better.

 

Then make the character good. Make Shadow more than that. Make Shadow an interesting character again, even to detractors. It takes skill to reinvent a character and make them appealing or interesting. Chucking any character in the bin arbitrarily is lazy.

 

I've already addressed this issue of 'oh improve the character'.

 

Literally: what's the point. He's had a horrendous effect on the franchise and he's already been brought back in a completely artificial way from his death in SA2 so he already makes no sense that he's in the series.

 

In addition, since he's no longer Sonic's arch enemy, the games would have to think up a ridiculous excuse for why they should be enemies. When they are goodie friends, it's just unbearable. Sonic already has a ridiculous amount of sidekicks.

 

There's no point in his existence when Metal Sonic is basically the same archetype but better (since he hasn't trashed the franchise and has actual reasons for fighting Sonic).

 

Anyway, he would be a nightmare to improve. He's specifically designed to be 'grim dark' and if he acted differently it would be out of character.

 

The only way he works is when he is literally Sonic's shadow: the evil alter ego because he is designed to be that way.

Edited September 5, 2013 by Furie

[Scar]

I've already addressed this issue of 'oh improve the character'.

 

Literally: what's the point. He's had a horrendous effect on the franchise and he's already been brought back in a completely artificial way from his death in SA2 so he already makes no sense that he's in the series.

If there is "no point" in improving Shadow, then what's the point in improving any character?

And you know who else has had a horrendous effect on the franchise? Its the title character; Sonic himself!

You can use Shadow as an arbitrary scapegoat. The fault does not lie with the character, it lies with the people who wrote the character into a gutter.

 

In addition, since he's no longer Sonic's arch enemy, the games would have to think up a ridiculous excuse for why they should be enemies. When they are goodie friends, it's just unbearable. Sonic already has a ridiculous amount of sidekicks.

That is no fault of Shadow. And he doesn't even need to be an enemy, or even a "goodie friend". Nor does he need to be described as a rival. He doesn't need to be any of those stereotypes, if he's written well and given a purpose aside from being an evil clone, or sidekick.

 

There's no point in his existence when Metal Sonic is basically the same archetype but better (since he hasn't trashed the franchise and has actual reasons for fighting Sonic).

Metal Sonic and Shadow aren't even remotely similar. They weren't similar when Shadow as invented, and they aren't similar. Their only similarity is in their resemblance to Sonic. If you paid attention to anything that happened in SA2 you'd have realised that Shadow wasn't created purely to fight Sonic (especially considering canonically, Shadow was in cryostasis 35 years before Sonic was even born). At first it was so that his creator could treat his terminally ill granddaughter. After her subsequent death, his purpose was retooled, so that he could enact his psychotic creators revenge on the world.

Maybe he was created by Sonic Team to be the "Evil Sonic", but his character ended up being so much more than that in the end.

Even after that, he still wasn't ever treated as the evil twin. He was always his own character, even if that character was derailed by shitty writing.

 

Anyway, he would be a nightmare to improve. He's specifically designed to be 'grim dark' and if he acted differently it would be out of character.

This doesn't constitute an argument.

So what, Shadow getting worse and being derailed (Sonic Heroes > Shadow the Hedgehog (the game))after his creation doesn't count as becoming "out of character", but suddenly improving the character and making some necessary changes, somehow is?

Even if improving him, is out of character, if it ultimately benefits the character and makes them into something more substantial than before, then its worth it.

 

The only way he works is when he is literally Sonic's shadow: the evil alter ego because he is designed to be that way.

No that's not the only way he works, because he never really was that to begin with. You can argue that Sonic Team created him with that purpose, but like I said, his original character was so much more than just that within the canon.

Edited September 5, 2013 by Scar

[ArtFenix]

Are some people really blaming Shadow for all the problems with the rest of the cast sucking? Wtf lol.

Edited September 5, 2013 by ArtFenix

[Nepenthe]

Shadow defense is always a bit refreshing to see. x)

Constant comparisons to Metal Sonic aren't, which is even more painful under a context that Metal has never been hot shit in the first place. All of his appearances have ranged from uninspired, underwhelming and overhyped, to just amazingly haphazard and irrelevant to the point of the character, nor has he grown in an interesting or compelling way (not that I'd need him to; making him an OVA level Big Bad forever would be just fine with me); replacing Shadow with Metal would be just an absolute travesty.

[Kuzu]

Are we seriously having the exact same argument we just had less than a week ago...

Shadow defense is always a bit refreshing to see. x)

Constant comparisons to Metal Sonic aren't, which is even more painful under a context that Metal has never been hot shit in the first place. All of his appearances have ranged from uninspired, underwhelming and overhyped, to just amazingly haphazard and irrelevant to the point of the character, nor has he grown in an interesting or compelling way (not that I'd need him to; making him an OVA level Big Bad forever would be just fine with me); replacing Shadow with Metal would be just an absolute travesty.

 

I think this is why everyone likes Metal Sonic, he's so underutilized and probably feel he has potential, meanwhile Shadow has been overexposed out the ass. That said yea, comparing Shadow & Metal Sonic dumb; they're completely different characters with different motives with the only thing binding them is that they look like the main hero. So you're grasping at straws if that's the only connection you can make that makes them "the same".

[Nepenthe]

On the contrary: people seem to treat Metal Sonic like a properly utilized bad ass. Understandable over people feeling like Shadow was over utilized, despite that point in time not being relevant to the current state of the games anymore, but Metal Sonic has a sizable fan base for supposedly appearing bad ass despite never having done anything except look the part to warrant the label, so it's a level of endearment I don't empathize with. Every other rival and Eggman has bested Sonic or tested his limits in believable ways at one point or another. Metal Sonic hasn't but maintains a surprising amount of worship anyway. So forgive me if I find it a bit off-putting and annoying, especially as a Shadow fan where there's at least more content to the character to feasibly justify my like of him.

[Furie]

I can't believe that so many people are defending Shadow. He's one of the characters who was instrumental in trashing the series.

 

Ever since he has been brought back from the dead (in a ridiculous way I might add) all he has done is tarnish the reputation off the series and have other terrible decision changes.

 

And yes, he can be improved but there are times when one must just stop and get rid of the character. It's enough. When you have a character like Shadow, who is almost completely hated outside the hardcore Shadow fans, it's an idiotic idea to try to impove the character.

 

 

Shadow defense is always a bit refreshing to see. x)

Constant comparisons to Metal Sonic aren't, which is even more painful under a context that Metal has never been hot shit in the first place. All of his appearances have ranged from uninspired, underwhelming and overhyped, to just amazingly haphazard and irrelevant to the point of the character, nor has he grown in an interesting or compelling way (not that I'd need him to; making him an OVA level Big Bad forever would be just fine with me); replacing Shadow with Metal would be just an absolute travesty.

 

This is completely ridiculous. Metal Sonic was secondary antagonist of Sonic CD and was incredibly vital to the atmosphere of the game. Saying he has never been important is just dishonest and unhelpful.

[Kuzu]

I can't believe that so many people are defending Shadow. He's one of the characters who was instrumental in trashing the series.

 

Ever since he has been brought back from the dead (in a ridiculous way I might add) all he has done is tarnish the reputation off the series and have other terrible decision changes.

 

And yes, he can be improved but there are times when one must just stop and get rid of the character. It's enough. When you have a character like Shadow, who is almost completely hated outside the hardcore Shadow fans, it's an idiotic idea to try to impove the character.

 

If the best reason you can come up with for saying Shadow should never return are tied to events from over 5 years ago, and is no longer relevant considering Shadow himself already doesn't appear much anyway; excuse some people for finding that line of reasoning a little off.

[Nepenthe]

Metal Sonic in CD was bigged up as this amazing boss encounter with dark atmosphere, something that made me jump into a game I don't even really like all that much to see and experience for myself. And what did I get? An easy-ass if fumbly race to the end where he crashed into a wall. Talk about a fucking disappointment. Shadow's initial appearance has more character, atmosphere, meaning and relevance in it than Metal has had in his entire career. I don't give a shit about his crappy game either; I'll take Shadow any day, because I know the character he can be, over Metal Sonic who has yet to prove himself after 20 years of existence.

[Kuzu]

On the contrary: people seem to treat Metal Sonic like a properly utilized bad ass. Understandable over people feeling like Shadow was over utilized, despite that point in time not being relevant to the current state of the games anymore, but Metal Sonic has a sizable fan base for supposedly appearing bad ass despite never having done anything except look the part to warrant the label, so it's a level of endearment I don't empathize with. Every other rival and Eggman has bested Sonic or tested his limits in believable ways at one point or another. Metal Sonic hasn't but maintains a surprising amount of worship anyway. So forgive me if I find it a bit off-putting and annoying, especially as a Shadow fan where there's at least more content to the character to feasibly justify my like of him.

 

Its funny too; people give Shadow shit for being labelled a badass based on appearance...when that's exactly done with Metal Sonic, yet he gets praise for it.

[Vertekins]

This is completely ridiculous. Metal Sonic was secondary antagonist of Sonic CD and was incredibly vital to the atmosphere of the game. Saying he has never been important is just dishonest and unhelpful.

 

No he wasn't. The nature and technology theme as well as the temporal changes to the stages was vital to the atmosphere of the game.

 

Metal Sonic makes two small appearances, neither of which are accompanied with much pomp at all and neither of which are as influential or atmosphere-contributing as you make them out to be.

[Kuzu]

Ya know Shadow's gotten enough hate when the people who don't even care all that much about him are defending him. Its reassuring to say the least.

[Scar]

I can't believe that so many people are defending Shadow. He's one of the characters who was instrumental in trashing the series.

You know who else was instrumental in the trashing of the franchise? Sonic.

And you can bet your ass, we're going to defend Shadow. If people are going to throw around shitty arguments about why he should be disposed of entirely, then I know I'll be here to burn down those straw-men.

 

Ever since he has been brought back from the dead (in a ridiculous way I might add) all he has done is tarnish the reputation off the series and have other terrible decision changes.

None of this is Shadow's fault. Shadow is a fictitious character in a video game series. Everything you're blaming on Shadow, is actually the fault of Sonic Team.

And yes, he can be improved but there are times when one must just stop and get rid of the character. It's enough. When you have a character like Shadow, who is almost completely hated outside the hardcore Shadow fans, it's an idiotic idea to try to impove the character.

This attitude is fucking stupid.

At one point everyone hated Sonic. Not the extra characters, none of the extra bullshit. There was a point in time when the vast majority of gamers who weren't hardcore Sonic fans, hated Sonic, and everything related to Sonic.

If we applied your bullshit logic to that situation, it would have been better for us to just let Sonic die a shitty death, rather than trying to improve him as a character and the games in general.

 

This is completely ridiculous. Metal Sonic was secondary antagonist of Sonic CD and was incredibly vital to the atmosphere of the game. Saying he has never been important is just dishonest and unhelpful.

Metal Sonic was merely Ok in Sonic CD. He's been total shit ever since. Much like Shadow, only he hasn't gotten his own game. Remember his ridiculous character derailment in Heroes where he turned into a bootleg blue Metal Charizard?