[DELETED]

[Your Vest Friend]

I wouldn't call such a minor incident outright humiliation; Amy getting facepalmed without Sonic really giving her the time of day is far more memorable and potentially more embarrassing. And the bosses fared just as badly. I mean, is Knuckles simply not allowed to partake in a joke at all anymore?

 

I'd argue that Amy got humiliated as well, although for the bosses,  I'd just say that they were just doing as bosses do. 

 

The problem with Knuckles is that he often seems to be made out as the sufferer of jokes, without the right sort of balance to make him more rounded in terms of role. He's not one to get a victory for a loss, so to speak. 

[Jack / Joker]

I mean, is Knuckles simply not allowed to partake in a joke at all anymore?

 

Of course the dude is!

 

It just gets grating how he seems to be the butt of every fucking joke he's in. Can't he like, say or do something cool at the expense of someone else, for once? Or even just do something cool in general? I'd like to know what he has to say about Sonic and his ragtag crew, it got boring fast seeing how much Amy, Blaze and even Sonic look down on him like he's below them or something. I don't want them to turn him into serious business Shadow or anything, just for them to make him seem like the character people actually like again...

 

This goes for all rivals as well, by the way! Seeing Silver get crushed by a giant ball of trash is fucking hilarious, but let's not make looking pathetic a recurring trait of him, Shadow or Metal Sonic, please...

 

900 posts Bee-otches!

Edited December 28, 2012 by Optimus Prime

[Sega DogTagz]

Seeing Silver get crushed by a giant ball of trash is fucking hilarious, but let's not make looking pathetic a recurring trait of him,

 

Eh, that's glass half empty talk. Silver had to make that giant ball of trash in order to get crushed beneath it.

 

Dude congealed a city block an made and Indiana Jones styled ball-o-doom. Me thinks he filled his "I'm Awesome" quota for that day.

Edited December 28, 2012 by Sega DogTagz

[Nepenthe]

Free Riders had a story???

A pretty extensive one considering.

 

Like I said, it's a matter of balance. We've seen too much of the clumsy, gullible hothead and not enough of the dedicated guardian, the "last of my race" guy, or even just the "smashes bad guys" guy. Sonic falls on his face sometimes, but he also gets back up, fights the bad guys, saves the world, and does it with attitude and style. Knuckles falls on his face, and that's basically the last relevant thing he does in the game.

But that's really only an accurate reflection of his portrayal in Sonic 06. In Heroes, he's got a major appearance that culminates in him turning Super, in ShtH he helps Shadow smash stuff up without a whole lot of the supposed Flanderization Sonic was recently derided for, in Riders he beats the shit out of Storm, eliminates him from the tournament, then participates in the final battle, and Zero Gravity notably puts his archaeological skills to use.

[Kuzu]

A pretty extensive one considering.

 

But that's really only an accurate reflection of his portrayal in Sonic 06. In Heroes, he's got a major appearance that culminates in him turning Super, in ShtH he helps Shadow smash stuff up without a whole lot of the supposed Flanderization Sonic was recently derided for, in Riders he beats the shit out of Storm, eliminates him from the tournament, then participates in the final battle, and Zero Gravity notably puts his archaeological skills to use.

 

 

The only one of those you can probably count is Heroes, and even then Knuckles himself doesn't really do anything notable due to being apart of Team Sonic for the entirety of the game; the rest of them are spin offs, games which more than likely people aren't going to notice. It's not so much about Knuckles appearing and simply doing stuff, he does nothing to stand out considering his role. I mean we've seen Sonic & Shadow take on entire armies by himself, Tails & Amy had their moments in Sa1 arguably, and even Silver had his moment in Generations, but what has Knuckles done of any significance when his appearances go beyond a simple cameo? The most notable thing he's known for is getting tricked by Eggman, and that's basically become his hat.

 

It's not so much Knuckles is constantly treated like a butt monkey, it's that his presence in the series is so insignificant that his most notable contributions are mainly comic relief, so it just feels that way.

[Nepenthe]

It's irrelevant to limit the conversation to main games just because they're not as widely played by the general public. It's not likely the general public even knows much about Knuckles beyond him being Sonic's friend considering all the good Sega's done with the cast in the last few years. Even if I were to agree to that term of the discussion, his most "comic" role would be Sonic 06 because he fell on his head once and was made fun of by Rouge, which doesn't play well to the argument that all he is is comic relief.

 

Regardless, I disagree; I don't think his most notable contributions are taking pratfalls. Instead, I think these moments are just significantly played up compared to the other things he's done merely because he has that reputation due to Sonic Team dropping the ball on utilizing him in general. He's done more useful and awesome shit than not in both the 3D games and the entire series outright that I find his reputation somewhat undeserved. As I said before, I agree with most that he's pretty underutilized and aimless right now, but a more objective look at the narratives would not really find him on the end of some joke most of the time.

 

And the argument going on right now is that Knuckles basically that he is a butt-monkey and nothing else. "Sega's deadset on making him look like an idiot." "His comic moments are not balanced with enough serious moments." "He was humiliated in Generations too." "He's the butt of every joke he's in."

[Vertekins]

Plus, I'd kinda like to see her relation to Knuckles explained. We all know Chronicles isn't canon, but I've always been somewhat intrigued by the "descendant of Pacmankamek Pachacamac" line.

 

Why when that line was one of the best examples alongside many that prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the developers did not do the research?

 

It is impossible for Knuckles to be related to Pachacamac and Tikal for a multitude of reasons.

[Jack / Joker]

...I didn't process Pachacamac and his unnamed wife being fucking dead eliminating that possibility. Everytime Sonic Crapicles gets discussed I get more irritated at it. Goddamn PIECE OF SHI-- ... ...whoever the Red Menace did descend from must have done a bloody stellar job of avoiding the colossal water monster who murdered everyone that day...

[Kuzu]

It's irrelevant to limit the conversation to main games just because they're not as widely played by the general public. It's not likely the general public even knows much about Knuckles beyond him being Sonic's friend considering all the good Sega's done with the cast in the last few years. Even if I were to agree to that term of the discussion, his most "comic" role would be Sonic 06 because he fell on his head once and was made fun of by Rouge, which doesn't play well to the argument that all he is is comic relief.

Well then what other notable thing has he done other than comic relief? 

 

 

Regardless, I disagree; I don't think his most notable contributions are taking pratfalls. Instead, I think these moments are just significantly played up compared to the other things he's done merely because he has that reputation due to Sonic Team dropping the ball on utilizing him in general. He's done more useful and awesome shit than not in both the 3D games and the entire series outright that I find his reputation somewhat undeserved. As I said before, I agree with most that he's pretty underutilized and aimless right now, but a more objective look at the narratives would not really find him on the end of some joke most of the time.

 

A lot more compared to every other character, the only characters that probably have less luck than Knuckles are Eggman and the Chaotix, but the difference being is that Eggman has awesome moments to balance out his butt monkey moments, the Chaotix are nowhere near as prominent, meanwhile Knuckles is more or less a main character but doesn't have much to show for it other than being the butt of some joke.

 

And the argument going on right now is that Knuckles basically that he is a butt-monkey and nothing else. "Sega's deadset on making him look like an idiot." "His comic moments are not balanced with enough serious moments." "He was humiliated in Generations too." "He's the butt of every joke he's in."

 

At the moment, Sega aren't really doing anything else notable with him, so you can't exactly blame people for having that perception of him. His last major apperance(Generations) has his most noticeable scene being swatted into a tree effortlessly.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

You know, I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out that Knuckles is actually several thousands of years old because his egg got frozen/stuck in stasis after the whole Perfect Chaos fiasco.

[Vertekins]

...I didn't process Pachacamac and his unnamed wife being fucking dead eliminating that possibility. Everytime Sonic Crapicles gets discussed I get more irritated at it. Goddamn PIECE OF SHI--

 

Not to forget that Tikal died when the Master Emerald tore her soul from her body. Since Tikal didn't have babies by the time that happened (She was 14 for Pete's sake!) and no siblings, direct descendants are a complete impossibility which rules Knuckles out as being related to her.

 

...Yep, boggles me too that Crapicles is praised for it's continuity references and such when if anything, everything about it is one huge continuity snarl from the large amount of factual inaccuracies to the huge degree of OoC behaviour from the characters.

 

Back to the topic subject, I believe that Blaze's title is "Imperial princess" (皇女Kōjo) . Does this mean that the royal family of the Sol Dimension rule over an empire? It is interesting to note that not only have they defended the Sol Emeralds but as SRA proved, they guarded the Jewelled Scepter as well. Also, Eggman Nega referred to the place Blaze rules over as a Kingdom when he threatens to wipe it off the map with only a fraction of the power he has gained from the Power of the Stars and the Scepter.

Edited December 29, 2012 by Vertekins

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

The more talk about Knuckles, the more ideas I keep having on how to use him. And frankly, they would be a whole lot more than what they've done for him since SA2 and a lot more long lasting.

 

But enough about Knuckles from me...

Back to the topic subject, I believe that Blaze's title is "Imperial princess" (皇女Kōjo) . Does this mean that the royal family of the Sol Dimension rule over an empire? It is interesting to note that not only have they defended the Sol Emeralds but as SRA proved, they guarded the Jewelled Scepter as well. Also, Eggman Nega referred to the place Blaze rules over as a Kingdom when he threatens to wipe it off the map with only a fraction of the power he has gained from the Power of the Stars and the Scepter.

We could find that out if they bothered to explore Blaze's dimension a lot more. But with that kind of power, it does lean strongly in their direction.

 

In Sonic's world alone, we're still finding new places in the world, yet we don't have even a fraction of that same level of knowledge on Blaze's world. Shame...

[Nepenthe]

Well then what other notable thing has he done other than comic relief?

In Heroes, he goes Super. In Riders, he beats Storm twice, once physically and another eliminating him from the tournament altogether. In ZG, everyone here flipped their shits that he finally was able to put his geographical skills to use for probably the first time in the games ever. In Free Riders, he's the only one in the entire story to catch on to the fact that Team Dark's robot team mate is not merely just a low level pawn. And of course, all of the generic moments in the 3D where he proves to be an assistance: fighting bosses and enemies alongside team mates, finding artifacts or possessing information to progress them forward, saving Rouge's life, etc. I don't understand why pretty much everything he's done is negated because he fell on his head.

 

In fact, in this entire discussion there's only three instances of blatant comic relief people continue to bring up: that, his spat with Rouge, and the joke in Generations. Three jokes across twelve years does not define a character as comic relief; Sonic was subjected to just as much in Colors alone. Again, if we're going to merely play up these moments to such an extreme, I again ask whether or not Knuckles is even ever allowed to be in a joke again.

 

A lot more compared to every other character, the only characters that probably have less luck than Knuckles are Eggman and the Chaotix, but the difference being is that Eggman has awesome moments to balance out his butt monkey moments, the Chaotix are nowhere near as prominent, meanwhile Knuckles is more or less a main character but doesn't have much to show for it other than being the butt of some joke.

No main character sans Sonic, Tails, and Eggman has much of anything to show for being a main character all this time simply because Sega isn't utilizing them anyway, and when they use them prominently, of course they're using them in a comedic fashion or setting, either through physical pratfalls or dialogue; that's pretty much the whole modus operandi of their storytelling now. But again, three moments across twelve years. You might as well call Shadow a comic relief character if that's the par that needs to be met.

 

  

At the moment, Sega aren't really doing anything else notable with him, so you can't exactly blame people for having that perception of him. His last major apperance(Generations) has his most noticeable scene being swatted into a tree effortlessly.

Actually, I can blame people for ignoring the overwhelming majority of Knuckles' narrative usage just as I continuously blame people for calling Shadow angsty. Sega not doing anything noteworthy with the cast is definitely a problem in and of itself, but it's not much of an excuse for inaccurate criticism.

Edited December 30, 2012 by Nepenthe

[Rlps]

I want to see maybe a one game chaos return to plot because I can't help but see a similarity between his attack set and the werehog fighting style some people say it is a good knuckles fighting style but something about knuckles reaching halfway across a room creeps me out

When I say chaos I mean chaos 0

[Burnt Ash]

Now that you mention it...Chaos's stretchy arms in SA2 and Battle. Hmm, never paused to think of it before. Chaos could make for an interesting appearance/role in the story, given that he appears in "times of great crisis".

[Dandp]

I don't see other characters returning at all, or at least for a while. If the modern gameplay was kept, with boosting, it wouldn't make sense to have a S3&K style where other people take different routes, because they won't be able to keep up without having a boost ability, something IMO only Sonic should have, as tails isn't the "Fastest thing alive", and neither is knuckles. The only character I can imagine being playable with modern Sonic's gameplay would be Shadow, who is in almost every way, a Sonic clone. Shadow is the only character I can imagine being in the games and still boosting, and if I had the choice to play multiple characters, why would I use shadow besides the fact of "being a fan of him" (Which I personally am not, he's OK, but whatever). I would just play as Sonic. So I don't see multiple characters returning unless the gameplay style is completely changed again to a speed characters other than Sonic could reach. Also, with modern gameplay, Drop in Coop isn't coming back. P2 couldn't keep up on the SEGA Megadrive, never mind now.

[Spin Attaxx]

Surely they could alter the boost/other characters' speed to keep up?

 

Also, Blaze seems like she could use the boost as well.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Or they could take out boosting at the press of a button?

[Chaos Controller]

I don't see other characters returning at all, or at least for a while. If the modern gameplay was kept, with boosting, it wouldn't make sense to have a S3&K style where other people take different routes, because they won't be able to keep up without having a boost ability, something IMO only Sonic should have, as tails isn't the "Fastest thing alive", and neither is knuckles. The only character I can imagine being playable with modern Sonic's gameplay would be Shadow, who is in almost every way, a Sonic clone. Shadow is the only character I can imagine being in the games and still boosting, and if I had the choice to play multiple characters, why would I use shadow besides the fact of "being a fan of him" (Which I personally am not, he's OK, but whatever). I would just play as Sonic. So I don't see multiple characters returning unless the gameplay style is completely changed again to a speed characters other than Sonic could reach. Also, with modern gameplay, Drop in Coop isn't coming back. P2 couldn't keep up on the SEGA Megadrive, never mind now.

What about Metal Sonic?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

What about Metal Sonic?

When was the last time they made heavy use of him? And I mean before Generations using him and everyone else as cheerleaders or minor NPCs.

[Chaos Controller]

When was the last time they made heavy use of him? And I mean before Generations using him and everyone else as cheerleaders or minor NPCs.

I don't see how that's relevant in a "What-if" thread...

But, to answer that question, Sonic 4 Episode II.

Either way, my point is that he's a character capable of achieving high-speeds that rival Sonic and Shadow and, therefore, is more than qualified to be a character that can be played in the Hedgehog Engine, while still making sense.

Edited February 10, 2013 by Chaos Controller

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I don't see how that's relevant in a "What-if" thread...

Anything coherent is relevant in a "What-if" thread, dude. Otherwise, what's the point in asking "What-if" in the first place?

But, to answer that question, Sonic 4 Episode II.

Either way, my point is that he's a character capable of achieving high-speeds that rival Sonic and Shadow and, therefore, is more than qualified to be a character that can be played in the Hedgehog Engine, while still making sense.

True, but then comes the question of whether he'll be put to use in the game. They haven't given him a lot of attention until recently, and even then it's a matter of whether they'll do more with him.

[Chaos Controller]

Anything coherent is relevant in a "What-if" thread, dude. Otherwise, what's the point in asking "What-if" in the first place?

 

I agree. Hence why I'm saying that it's irrelevant to ask "When was the last time they made heavy use of Metal Sonic?". It doesn't matter when they used him last or how likely it is that he will be used. The point is that he's a viable candidate. Again, it's a "What-if" thread.

 

True,but then comes the question of whether he'll be put to use in the game. They haven't given him a lot of attention until recently, and even then it's a matter of whether they'll do more with him.

Talk about hitting the nail on the head and completely missing the point. It's rare that I see someone completely contradict themselves in a single post. 

Edited February 10, 2013 by Chaos Controller

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I agree. Hence why I'm saying that it's irrelevant to ask "When was the last time they made heavy use of Metal Sonic?". It doesn't matter when they used him last or how likely it is that he will be used. The point is that he's a viable candidate. Again, it's a "What-if" thread.

It's every bit as relevant because "What if" they never bother to do any of that with him? "What if" that candidacy is overlooked in favor of other characters like Shadow or Blaze? "What if" all he is ever used for is simply as a bonus, and not as something more? It matters every bit because it would be unrealized potential for the character, and there's not a lot of hope in ever seeing the guy in enough action at best. There's a lot that can be done for the character, and a lot that should have been realized during this series' lifetime, and yet it hasn't while other characters end up taking some of those positions and doing more with them.

 

For all your talk of making "what if" questions you're doing a fine job of dodging someone else's. Your point is about him being a viable candidate; my point is that what if that viability is never even considered considering how little he's gotten.

 

It matters even more considering that your first post here quoted someone who doubts that any of the other characters would even be used because of the current gameplay, and only a character like Shadow (and your addition of Metal Sonic) would even have a chance due to being so similar to Sonic. And yet, despite these similarities, they haven't been given any major use.

 

Talk about hitting the nail on the head and completely missing the point. It's rare that I see someone completely contradict themselves in a single post.  

I contradict myself by bringing to attention that despite him being a candidate they may not actually use him very much, if at all? Riiiight...And it's not too often that I see someone make that huge a leap of logic in theirs. Care to explain that assumption you made about my post?

Edited February 10, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Chaos Controller]

^ Dandp said that the only other character he could see being playable in the Hedgehog Engine was Shadow. I suggested Metal Sonic...

I'm not sure how it was even possible to initiate an argument out of that. But, you somehow found a way. So, kudos for that, I guess...

Anyway, I'm gonna back off. Don't wanna get caught up in any flaming.