[DELETED]

[Mr Useful]

I don't know why SEGA won't poke any fun at the alleged "fastest thing alive" not being able to out run a fat old man. There was a golden opportunity in Generations with it's next to nothing plot and near non-existent story telling.

[Tenko]

[Chaos Warp]

I was thinking about some stuff recently. People have often proposed Shadow be nerfed by having his Chaos Attacks take a strain on his body and I always thought this was a good idea, so I came up with an idea. What if using Chaos attacks such as Spear or Blast drained rings? Using them more would not only lower your score by getting rid of some of your hypothetical ring bonus (which the ranking/scoring system would counter with bonus points for using the powers, you would have to strike the right balance for the best possible score), but your chances of survival as well, playing into the whole "Chaos Power usage takes a toll on his body" idea. 

Edited April 16, 2013 by Generations (Chaos Warp)

[Sparky]

I was thinking about some stuff recently. People have often proposed Shadow be nerfed by having his Chaos Attacks take a strain on his body and I always thought this was a good idea, so I came up with an idea. What if using Chaos attacks such as Spear or Blast drained rings? Using them more would not only lower your score by getting rid of some of your hypothetical ring bonus (which the ranking/scoring system would counter with bonus points for using the powers, you would have to strike the right balance for the best possible score), but your chances of survival as well, playing into the whole "Chaos Power usage takes a toll on his body" idea. 

I don't think that would be good idea because Chaos powers are his main character-ability like Silver's psychokinesis and Sonic's high-speed actions or Knuckles fists.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Sound good, but here's another proposal: why not make Shadow a glass cannon? He can hit hard, but he can't take the hits back.

[Diogenes]

I was thinking about some stuff recently. People have often proposed Shadow be nerfed by having his Chaos Attacks take a strain on his body and I always thought this was a good idea, so I came up with an idea. What if using Chaos attacks such as Spear or Blast drained rings? Using them more would not only lower your score by getting rid of some of your hypothetical ring bonus (which the ranking/scoring system would counter with bonus points for using the powers, you would have to strike the right balance for the best possible score), but your chances of survival as well, playing into the whole "Chaos Power usage takes a toll on his body" idea.

The gameplay representation of his powers isn't much of a problem, IMO. As long as his chaos powers are balanced around and towards decent Sonic gameplay, I don't think he'd feel too overpowered in actual play. It's how he operates in the story that makes him overpowered.

Plus I'm not a big fan of having to pay for moves with life essence. For me it'd end up like Megaman, where I hesitate to use any special weapons for fear of running out when I really need them.

[Sparky]

Sound good, but here's another proposal: why not make Shadow a glass cannon? He can hit hard, but he can't take the hits back.

Why would the Ultimate Lifeform be a glass cannon? 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Why would the Ultimate Lifeform be a glass cannon?

Because being the "Ultimate Lifeform" does not (nor should it) mean he's invincible, or all powerful, or otherwise broken. Even Superman can be as weak as any regular man if you put him in a bad spot like Kryptonite or red sun.

Why should being the "Ultimate Lifeform" mean he can't have weaknesses? What kind of jacked up shit is that?

Edited April 16, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonîc

[Burnt Ash]

Why would the Ultimate Lifeform be a glass cannon? 

 

I thought the term referred to Shadow's immortality. Sure, Shadow's immortal, but I'm pretty sure if Knuckles punched him, it wouldn't feel all that great for Shadow, regardless of his Ultimate Lifeform status. 

[Sparky]

Because being the "Ultimate Lifeform" does not (nor should it) mean he's invincible, or all powerful, or otherwise broken. Even Superman can be as weak as any regular man if you put him in a bad spot like Kryptonite or red sun.

Why should being the "Ultimate Lifeform" mean he can't have weaknesses? What kind of jacked up shit is that?

I'm not saying he should be invincible, I'm just saying that he, being the ULF, should be able to withstand lots and lots of pain.  

Edited April 16, 2013 by tsz11

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I'm not saying he should be invincible, I'm just saying that he, being the ULF, should be able to withstand lots and lots of pain.  

So he should be nigh-invincible...

 

No. That's practically a watered down version of the same thing.

[Diogenes]

"Ultimate Life Form" can mean any number of things, it doesn't need to make him resistant to pain. And Shadow being super tough alongside all his other abilities is kind of ridiculous.

[Burnt Ash]

Wait, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Shadow's ULF status refer to his immunity to disease and all that? 

[Sparky]

So he should be nigh-invincible...

 

No. That's practically a watered down version of the same thing.

Not nigh-invincible, just tough. 

[Diogenes]

Why should being the ULF make him "tough"?

[Sparky]

Why should being the ULF make him "tough"?

Because whether he was made to be a superpowerful weapon, or a cure for diseases or whatever, he was still made to be the Ultimate Lifeform and I'm sure an "Ultimate Lifeform" would be able to take a hit. 

[Mando-Whirl-Wind]

Why should being the ULF make him "tough"?

 very true, in fact, under original vision, the ULF form should simply have no physical imperfections, and not suffer from any illnesses. the attack ability is just an after-thought addition to his normal self defense abilities. He should have normal strength, and maybe boosted health, however thats just due to his perfect physical condition, but his defense shouldnt be overkill

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Not nigh-invincible, just tough. 

A watered down version of an already watered down version of something else. No.

 

Shadow has:

• Superspeed
• Chaos Powers that shoot energy blasts, explosions, stop time, and do who knows what the fuck else they put on him
• and Immortality, which means "incapable of dying" not "incapable of being hurt easily"; and we don't even know how far his immortality goes, and there's several ways they could go about it:
  • Chopping him up into pieces like tissue paper and he can still live
  • Can die but revive himself
  • Can get hurt but regenerate
  • Or just simply lives a long time

I think that should be enough for him, and even being tough would be far too much for this one character with these abilities. I like characters that have clear weaknesses over characters that do not, and Shadow as of now falls in the latter category that I'd rather see him get out of.

Edited April 17, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonîc

[Mr Useful]

I say that Sonic should keep his magic hands/bounce bracelet while shadow could have Chaos Boost which gives him temporary invulnerability and higher base speed/height and a Chaos Spear attack which can used anytime but has longer range when boosted.

Or in other words, SA2 Sonic vs S06 Shadow(Minus the kick/homing attack combos and with a spin dash)

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

...Come to think of it, I think bringing back the Magic Hands could be useful in a way.

 

I suggest retooling tho.

[Diogenes]

Because whether he was made to be a superpowerful weapon, or a cure for diseases or whatever, he was still made to be the Ultimate Lifeform and I'm sure an "Ultimate Lifeform" would be able to take a hit.

You're not really answering the question.

Whether or not the ULF needs to be "tough" depends on how you define ULF. If he's the ULF in terms of being immune to disease and aging, then no, he really, genuinely does not need to be able to take a punch any better than the average person. Even from the perspective of being a weapon, he doesn't need to be any more durable than the average Sonic character; just doing loops at super speeds shows he's beyond ordinary human levels, and you could easily argue he's a weapon designed not to get hit in the first place, given that he can dodge most things on speed alone and anything else, well, he simply stops time.

[Sparky]

A watered down version of an already watered down version of something else. No.

 

Shadow has:

• Superspeed
• Chaos Powers that shoot energy blasts, explosions, stop time, and do who knows what the fuck else they put on him
• and Immortality, which means "incapable of dying" not "incapable of being hurt easily"; and we don't even know how far his immortality goes, and there's several ways they could go about it:
  • Chopping him up into pieces like tissue paper and he can still live
  • Can die but revive himself
  • Can get hurt but regenerate
  • Or just simply lives a long time

I think that should be enough for him, and even being tough would be far too much for this one character with these abilities. I like characters that have clear weaknesses over characters that do not, and Shadow as of now falls in the latter category that I'd rather see him get out of.

I am just saying that he should be able to take a hit without falling down unconscious and in severe pain. 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I am just saying that he should be able to take a hit without falling down unconscious and in severe pain. 

Who the hell said he should fall down unconscious and in sever pain if he gets hit?

 

I suggested a Glass Cannon, not a One Hit Point Wonder.

Edited April 17, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonîc

[Burnt Ash]

I am just saying that he should be able to take a hit without falling down unconscious and in severe pain. 

 

This does not need to happen. The idea behind applying the glass cannon to Shadow, if I'm reading this all correctly, is to limit Shadow's powers. Basically, while Shadow could probably take some hits without "falling down unconscious and in severe pain", what a character like Sonic might be able to withstand should theoretically be harder for Shadow to withstand, when considering the glass cannon idea. But at the same time, Shadow's powers are also strong enough making him a decent offense, but his defensive abilities are weaker to the point where it would balance out Shadow's insanely powerful combat abilities. In a way, it kind of ensures that Shadow isn't treated in extremes (too powerful, too weak), it's moreso just a balance.

Edited April 17, 2013 by Burnt Ash

[Chaos Warp]

Sound good, but here's another proposal: why not make Shadow a glass cannon? He can hit hard, but he can't take the hits back.

Well, this is kinda my way of representing that glass cannon-ness is gameplay, because that sort of thing is hard to represent in gameplay without, in my opinion, using the health system, which is the rings system in Sonic games. 

Edited April 17, 2013 by Generations (Chaos Warp)