[DELETED]

[Sparky]

Even if you take "Ultimate Lifeform" out of the equation, I think Shadow wouldn't be a glass cannon anyway because the way I see it, if your a speedster and can reach the speed of sound or light, your body would have to be able to withstand the friction and the air pressure and stuff so your organs to bleed out  of your pores or your body doesn't burst into flames or melt or whatever happens. And Shadow, whether he needs the hover shoes or not, is usually depicted as moving as fast as Sonic, even sharing his Light-Speed techniques. 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Mind me asking, but how exactly would that even work in the usual Sonic gameplay, where you can survive almost anything as long as you have at least one ring?

In addition to what others have said, how about we give Shadow an energy bar for his powers? If he gets hit not only does he lose rings, but that energy bar is cut by half (or 3/4ths if you want to go even more hardcore with the Glass Cannon concept).

 

And for 3D where you only lose a fraction of rings given the current gameplay, make Shadow lose a higher percentage of them. Where Sonic loses 10 rings for every hit, Shadow loses 30.

Edited April 19, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonîc

[Jolt_TH]

For 3D why not just make him loose all of them? Making him even more "Glass Canon" also makes him the "hard mode" on the game while differentiating him enough from sonic.

[Kuzu]

Really?

you're telling me 

this is the same game

in the same game,

 

 

 

Yes, and most of those are abilities are exactly as I described which was simply throwing things. Being able to stop time at the drop of a hat or making a nuke and then having power limiters on top of that is nowhere near comparable to what you're trying to give Silver credit for.

 

 

Let me ask you again, are you doing this on purpose?

 

No, and I'm getting fucking annoyed by your attitude at this whole thing.

 

The point in low defense even when he can just teleport around or stop time is so that he doesn't freaking get hit, or else he's in serious trouble. That's kind of the point for a Glass Cannon high offense so that they don't think their invincible when going into a fight, and you don't need to get rid of any of the powers he already has.

 

There's nothing overpowered when you put a high cost to having all those powers, because when you take hits like tissue paper then all someone needs to do is get of just a few good hits off of you. All Shadow has in his abilities is nothing but offense and speed, so preying on that allows for balance.

 

 

 

If the reward more than outweighs the risk then it kind of defeats the purpose. Ok, so Shadow can't take a hit, but it doesn't really matter because he can just stop time and effectively destroy what was going to attack him in the first place.

 

And if half of those abilities aren't useful, why don't you find a way to make them useful before you resort to toning them down? Because I'm pretty sure you know how to come with ideas off the top of your head on how to use them.

 

Because there's no reason for him to have that much power to begin with, from both a narrative standpoint and gameplay one. Shadow's powers are so supremely broken that it kills any tension a conflict with him will have because he can just Stop time and nuke the opposition to death, and then having access to even more power beyond that. 

 

The reason I'm asking for him to be toned down is so he can be used better, and so he doesn't come off as such an out of place character.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Yes, and most of those are abilities are exactly as I described which was simply throwing things. Being able to stop time at the drop of a hat or making a nuke and then having power limiters on top of that is nowhere near comparable to what you're trying to give Silver credit for.

Except that's all Shadow has as far as his powers go compared to Silver, who doesn't even need Chaos Control to teleport around or use energy attacks like Chaos Spear on top of being able to lift super heavy objects on the same scale of Knuckles strength (or more) without touching them and throwing them if not his foe themselves.

 

And need I remind you that Silver has Chaos Control as well on top of that. That's pretty comparable as it is, dude.

 

 

No, and I'm getting fucking annoyed by your attitude at this whole thing.

Dude, you practically sounded like were denying all the abilities and downplaying the powers I just told you Silver can do when I brought it up. That annoys me.

 

If the reward more than outweighs the risk then it kind of defeats the purpose. Ok, so Shadow can't take a hit, but it doesn't really matter because he can just stop time and effectively destroy what was going to attack him in the first place.

Then balance it with an energy cost so that he doesn't abuse it?

 

 

Because there's no reason for him to have that much power to begin with, from both a narrative standpoint and gameplay one. Shadow's powers are so supremely broken that it kills any tension a conflict with him will have because he can just Stop time and nuke the opposition to death, and then having access to even more power beyond that. 

Then restrict to just what he has and put some limitations or a high cost onto them. There are plenty of options that we can make use of before you go straight to the extreme and solve the solution by getting rid of them.

 

 

And this is the same problem with Silver's telekinesis alone if you're going to address that Shadow can have access to more power beyond that. You say that Silver's powers are not presented as game breaking even when he can chain-grab you to death on top of teleporting, energy projectiles, and lifting stuff of all sizes with his mind? Well neither have Shadow's if that's the case, because all he has is teleport/time stop, energy projectiles, and a nuke. Shadow can't even do half the stuff Silver can do, while Silver can find someway to replicate it in some form.

 

The reason I'm asking for him to be toned down is so he can be used better, and so he doesn't come off as such an out of place character.

That's what the whole concept of making him a glass cannon is for.

Edited April 19, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonîc

[Kuzu]

 

Except that's all Shadow has as far as his powers go compared to Silver, who doesn't even need Chaos Control to teleport around or use energy attacks like Chaos Spear on top of being able to lift super heavy objects on the same scale of Knuckles strength (or more) without touching them and throwing them if not his foe themselves.

And need I remind you that Silver has Chaos Control as well on top of that. That's pretty comparable as it is, dude.


Dude, you practically sounded like were denying all the abilities and downplaying the powers I just told you Silver can do when I brought it up. That annoys me.

 

If whoever is more broken comes down to opinion at this point, then I don't feel like arguing this. I don't even know why you brought Silver up to begin with when he wasn't even the subject of what I was talking about. Seriously, how the hell did you go from Shadow to Silver?

 

 

Then balance it with an energy cost so that he doesn't abuse it?

 

 

Energy from what exactly?

 

 

 

Then restrict to just what he has and put some limitations or a high cost onto them. There are plenty of options that we can make use of before you go straight to the extreme and solve the solution by getting rid of them.

 

 

Shadow's entire shtick is being a mirror image to Sonic so that kind of requires he has abilities comparable to his. Shadow started off as dark Sonic so what the hell is so wrong about him being that.

 

 

And this is the same problem with Silver's telekinesis alone if you're going to address that Shadow can have access to more power beyond that. You say that Silver's powers are not presented as game breaking even when he can chain-grab you to death on top of teleporting, energy projectiles, and lifting stuff of all sizes with his mind? Well neither have Shadow's if that's the case, because all he has is teleport/time stop, energy projectiles, and a nuke. Shadow can't even do half the stuff Silver can do, while Silver can find someway to replicate it in some form.

 

 

This is the second time you've brought up Silver when he's not the one I'm talking about, I almost get the feeling you're not even listening to me.

 

That's what the whole concept of making him a glass cannon is for.

 

 

That's not really solving the problem of his moveset, which is the subject of what I'm talking about and not whether Shadow can take a hit or not.

[Jolt_TH]

I think the main problem with Shadow is that we are shown a shit ton of abilities that he has...then in gameplay we hardly have any. It's like in a cutscene when you say to yourself "well why didn't X use Y/doY to get out of that" Shadow has a fair amount of powers and it would be nigh on impossible to make them all usable in game.

Silver although can do a lot, quite a lot stems from his ability to throw/pick up with his mind. He can fly, by picking himself up, he can lift heavy objects, with his mind (whereby Shadow can use brute strength) energy projectiles are one of the aforementioned "why can't I do that" powers, he uses it in cutscene but not gameplay and I don't think anyone can really count chaos control as anyone can do it with an emerald nowadays, shadow seems to be the only one who can without one.

Edited April 19, 2013 by Jolt_TH

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

 

If whoever is more broken comes down to opinion at this point, then I don't feel like arguing this. I don't even know why you brought Silver up to begin with when he wasn't even the subject of what I was talking about. Seriously, how the hell did you go from Shadow to Silver?

 

Who else would you be talking about if not for Silver when he's the only one with those powers?

Energy from what exactly?

 

Chaos Energy? The very stuff he stores within him to make use of those powers?

 

Shadow's entire shtick is being a mirror image to Sonic so that kind of requires he has abilities comparable to his. Shadow started off as dark Sonic so what the hell is so wrong about him being that.

 

Because:

1. we already have a recurring someone exactly like Sonic (that they need to make more use off), and even he is more than just a copy cat (well, aside from his litteral ability to copy powers)
2. it's redundant as hell to have a character be nothing more than a mirror image without some additional quirks to set him apart beyond personality and only continues to justify people calling him a pointless Sonic Clone as an insult, and
3. that wasn't his entire shtick than it is a part of it considering his very introduction was about how potentially superior he was to Sonic before Sonic became a legitimate challenge to his title of the Ultimate Lifeform.

 

 

This is the second time you've brought up Silver when he's not the one I'm talking about, I almost get the feeling you're not even listening to me.

 

Dude, if you weren't talking about Silver then it wasn't very wise to bring up Psychokinesis like you did earlier. XD

 

Although granted, I'd probably still bring him up anyway in some form and put him on the same level, but that's just some food for thought.

 

 

 

That's not really solving the problem of his moveset, which is the subject of what I'm talking about and not whether Shadow can take a hit or not.

I'm pretty sure being "supremely broken" was a big part of what you were talking about, hence why this argument began and I brought up making him a glass cannon so that he isn't broken.

 

And this is on top of me bringing up giving him an energy cost to those abilities limiting him from abusing them.

Edited April 19, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonîc

[jords]

Sonic has boost. He has a boost meter.
Shadow has chaos powers. He has a energy meter.
Silver has telekinesis. He has a physic meter.

If all is unlimited, it's overpowered in their own way. Same for other possible characters like blaze.
Blaze has fire. She has a flame meter.
Not too sure for tails, knuckles, amy.

Or since the next sonic maybe all about speed. their powers can be use to help them speed up.
I'm just throwing ideas.

EDIT: ....Or everyone has some type of boost, chaos boost for Shadow, physic boost for Silver, Speed boost for Sonic, and Flame boost for blaze, Rocket boost for metal sonic. What you guys think? please leave comments, I'd like to know.
This can work well for multiplayer with high speed races.

Edited April 19, 2013 by jordine

[Mr Useful]

Sonic has boost. He has a boost meter.

Shadow has chaos powers. He has a energy meter.

Silver has telekinesis. He has a physic meter.

If all is unlimited, it's overpowered in their own way. Same for other possible characters like blaze.

Blaze has fire. She has a flame meter.

Not too sure for tails, knuckles, amy.

Or since the next sonic maybe all about speed. their powers can be use to help them speed up.

I'm just throwing ideas.

EDIT: ....Or everyone has some type of boost, chaos boost for Shadow, physic boost for Silver, Speed boost for Sonic, and Flame boost for blaze, Rocket boost for metal sonic. What you guys think? please leave comments, I'd like to know.

This can work well for multiplayer with high speed races.

I like this idea.  I think that the different characters boosts could have different stats like Metal Sonic's boost taking you to top speed in an instant but it drains extremely quickly or Blaze's Boost having a higher acceleration/lower top speed.

[Kamakai]

I like this idea.  I think that the different characters boosts could have different stats like Metal Sonic's boost taking you to top speed in an instant but it drains extremely quickly or Blaze's Boost having a higher acceleration/lower top speed.

 

That would make for some cinematic and beautiful multiplayer. Hopefully it would control well. ...Makes me wish it existed.

 

...Sonic Athletics doesn't count.

[Mr Useful]

That would make for some cinematic and beautiful multiplayer. Hopefully it would control well. ...Makes me wish it existed.

 

...Sonic Athletics doesn't count.

Multiplayer in a Sonic Game? That's funny. When is the last time we had a decent VS?(No racing Sonic Ghost bullshit like in Colors DS and Generations 3ds)

Probably 06 because it is the last game to actually feature 2 different characters who can interact with each other and are racing.

[Splash the Otter]

Multiplayer in a Sonic Game? That's funny. When is the last time we had a decent VS?(No racing Sonic Ghost bullshit like in Colors DS and Generations 3ds)

Probably 06 because it is the last game to actually feature 2 different characters who can interact with each other and are racing.

It's funny how such a terrible game managed to have halfway decent multiplayer, isn't it?

[Mr Useful]

It's funny how such a terrible game managed to have halfway decent multiplayer, isn't it?

I see it as by comparison.

The only classic games with multiplayer were 2 and 3.

SA1 only had tails following sonic around who could be controlled by player 2(This feature was sadly removed in the xbla/psn/steam ports)

SA2 had great multiplayer

Heroes had good multiplayer as well

Shadow was kinda bland

06 has Co-op and Vs

Colours has co-op

Generations has none

Unleashed has none

Colours and Generations DS have shitty race the ghost multiplayer.

Rush/Rush adventure was decent 

Rivals was based around vs and was pretty good(To me)

And All of the Advance games have vs modes(and 3 had co-op. I believe 1 had it as well, correct me if I am wrong)

[Straw Hat]

Multiplayer in a Sonic Game? That's funny. When is the last time we had a decent VS?(No racing Sonic Ghost bullshit like in Colors DS and Generations 3ds)

Probably 06 because it is the last game to actually feature 2 different characters who can interact with each other and are racing.

06??? I'd probably say you should mookwalk backwards to Sonic Heroes...

[Mr Useful]

06??? I'd probably say you should mookwalk backwards to Sonic Heroes...

Meh, I say on the basis of having fun in Co-op when I played it.

[richardandjudy]

Bring back Cream and Big but drop the dopeyness.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

Bring back Cream and Big but drop the dopeyness.

Big being a simple and somewhat dopey individual is one of the main points of his character. What's he supposed to be without it? A Duke Nukem expy?

[richardandjudy]

He's a gentle giant with an admirable loyalty to his pet. He's got a great design. It's a start.

[Kuzu]

Big being a simple and somewhat dopey individual is one of the main points of his character. What's he supposed to be without it? A Duke Nukem expy?

 

I actually would have no problem with this.

[Mr Useful]

Big was perfect in SA2/Secret Rings. He simply made cameos in stages/cutscenes and playable in Vs as a reskin of someone else.(Original Sa2)

[Xenos]

No pls, Big fits his role rather well and I think he's fine as is. They just have to y'know, not do what Chronicles did and make him literally, and utterly stupid. He is shown to be simple-minded because he lives a carefree life in the woods with his frog, it doesn't mean he's a fucking moron.

 

The only thing I'd probably fix is that his lines weren't acted out in slow motion..I just think it's something he could do without.

[richardandjudy]

No pls, Big fits his role rather well and I think he's fine as is. They just have to y'know, not do what Chronicles did and make him literally, and utterly stupid. He is shown to be simple-minded because he lives a carefree life in the woods with his frog, it doesn't mean he's a fucking moron.   The only thing I'd probably fix is that his lines weren't acted out in slow motion..I just think it's something he could do without.

Pretty much what I mean

[DSP001]

I always imagined (perhaps wanted) Big as a wise sage of the jungle, simple minded most of the time but at times would just dish out one liners that change everyone's perspective in the world. Like "Froggyy where are you buddddy......the line thread of fate cannot easily be broken" or something I dunno < __ >

 

But overall I would really love some more interaction between these group of friends. Free Riders was a cack game but at least everyone talked to each other and had actual conversations. 

 

Gameplay wise, if they were to implement them into the game I'd like it if they all at least had a nerfed boost ability alongside a special gimmick of their own. At least that way you can still take sonic's route through a level but you have the choice to mix it up with their own unique paths....so pretty much how it was handled in Sonic 3 and Knuckles...just modern.

[Mr Useful]

I always imagined (perhaps wanted) Big as a wise sage of the jungle, simple minded most of the time but at times would just dish out one liners that change everyone's perspective in the world. Like "Froggyy where are you buddddy......the line thread of fate cannot easily be broken" or something I dunno < __ >

 

But overall I would really love some more interaction between these group of friends. Free Riders was a cack game but at least everyone talked to each other and had actual conversations. 

 

Gameplay wise, if they were to implement them into the game I'd like it if they all at least had a nerfed boost ability alongside a special gimmick of their own. At least that way you can still take sonic's route through a level but you have the choice to mix it up with their own unique paths....so pretty much how it was handled in Sonic 3 and Knuckles...just modern.

I wouldn't mind if the stages were divided similar to 06 and Adventure 1 but in order to get a specific section a characters specific abilities would be used.

 

Visible cavern behind a huge block of ice blocking you? You have the choice of taking the normal/other routesbut if your someone with a fire attack/gun/strong attack, you can either melt it or bust it down.(Somewhere that Blaze, Gamma, Knuckles, Omega, and Vector can go but everyone else can't)

OR

Huge Chasm with a platform on the otherside? Spindash and jump right before the ledge to get extra momentum or Chaos Spear rapidly inching your way to the platform,  I mean Hover, Slowly Decend, Fly, Glide, or Double Jump to the otherside.

Or 

In order to get to say, Red mountain's inside section, you have to get there with a zipline leading there. Heavy/Large characters wouldn't be able to get there without an alternate path leading there.