[DELETED]

[Splash the Otter]

Well, this is kinda my way of representing that glass cannon-ness is gameplay, because that sort of thing is hard to represent in gameplay without, in my opinion, using the health system, which is the rings system in Sonic games. 

Shadow could lose more rings from a single attack than other characters, in that case.

[Sparky]

This does not need to happen. The idea behind applying the glass cannon to Shadow, if I'm reading this all correctly, is to limit Shadow's powers. Basically, while Shadow could probably take some hits without "falling down unconscious and in severe pain", what a character like Sonic might be able to withstand should theoretically be harder for Shadow to withstand, when considering the glass cannon idea. But at the same time, Shadow's powers are also strong enough making him a decent offense, but his defensive abilities are weaker to the point where it would balance out Shadow's insanely powerful combat abilities. In a way, it kind of ensures that Shadow isn't treated in extremes (too powerful, too weak), it's moreso just a balance.

I consider Sonic and Shadow both being completely equal in stuff like that. Shadow should be able to withstand as much as Sonic at least. He might not be able to withstand as much as Knuckles or Vector or something, but at least as much as Sonic. 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Well, this is kinda my way of representing that glass cannon-ness is gameplay, because that sort of thing is hard to represent in gameplay without, in my opinion, using the health system, which is the rings system in Sonic games. 

I wasn't talking about gameplay, was more on the character in general, but I don't see the problem in overlapping the thought.

[Splash the Otter]

I consider Sonic and Shadow both being completely equal in stuff like that. Shadow should be able to withstand as much as Sonic at least. He might not be able to withstand as much as Knuckles or Vector or something, but at least as much as Sonic. 

So, you want him to be a reskin of Sonic, or worse, an overpowered version of Sonic? For the sake of balance, he needs weaknesses and giving him poor defense is a good way to do this.

[Sparky]

So, you want him to be a reskin of Sonic, or worse, an overpowered version of Sonic? For the sake of balance, he needs weaknesses and giving him poor defense is a good way to do this.

No, I don't want him as a reskin as Sonic. I'm just saying that physically, their bodies are almost exactly the same. 

[Mr Useful]

Give Sonic the Bounce Bracelet and Shadow his Chaos Spear Attack. Simple, Cool Abilities(Sonic's Upgrades over the games) vs Chaos Abilities and Attacks.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

No, I don't want him as a reskin as Sonic. I'm just saying that physically, their bodies are almost exactly the same. 

But that essentially makes Shadow a "Sonic+": he has everything Sonic does, and more with his Chaos Powers and Immortality.

 

And when it comes to characters like that, they can easily be skewed as God Modes. Shadow isn't exactly a God Mode, but I wouldn't criticize someone too harshly if they said he was because his abilities aren't balanced (and not as an excuse to bash the character, cherry pick small aspects of him, ignore his personality traits, or otherwise ignore that for all his powers he isn't so overly successful in the series as they bash him for being...yes, I'm including the whole shebang here).

 

Shadow needs balance. His Chaos Powers should cause some strain, and he should be able to take less hits than Sonic can while still being a very powerful character in his own right. Otherwise, you're just justifying people calling him overpowered.

[Tenko]

Didn't Shadow comment in SA2 that he thought Sonic was the "Perfect Lifeform" thus the jewel of Gerald's work rather than himself during the Final Hazard fight?

[Sparky]

But that essentially makes Shadow a "Sonic+": he has everything Sonic does, and more with his Chaos Powers and Immortality.

 

And when it comes to characters like that, they can easily be skewed as God Modes. Shadow isn't exactly a God Mode, but I wouldn't criticize someone too harshly if they said he was because his abilities aren't balanced (and not as an excuse to bash the character, cherry pick small aspects of him, ignore his personality traits, or otherwise ignore that for all his powers he isn't so overly successful in the series as they bash him for being...yes, I'm including the whole shebang here).

 

Shadow needs balance. His Chaos Powers should cause some strain, and he should be able to take less hits than Sonic can while still being a very powerful character in his own right. Otherwise, you're just justifying people calling him overpowered.

Shadow taking less hits then Sonic can doesn't make much sense to me since their supposed to be equal. Shadow being Sonic + Chaos Powers and Immortality is what he's been since the beginning. 

 

I think that the way Shadow's chaos powers should work in gameplay is that they would just replace some of Sonic's skills. Like... replace the slide and the stomp with the Chaos Spear. And using chaos powers should take up some parts of the boost gauge, except the Chaos Spear if the button is just tapped, but if it's charged for a long enough time it will start lowering the gauge. Stuff like Chaos Blast should lower it completely/take up like 90/80% of it. 

 

Or just make his boost drain quicker or something, but I think Shadow should be able to take as much hits as Sonic.

Didn't Shadow comment in SA2 that he thought Sonic was the "Perfect Lifeform" thus the jewel of Gerald's work rather than himself during the Final Hazard fight?

When he called Sonic the real "Ultimate Lifeform", I don't think he meant that he was made by Gerald. I think that he meant that Sonic is like a natural born ULF or at least something very close to it.

[Diogenes]

Shadow taking less hits then Sonic can doesn't make much sense to me since their supposed to be equal. Shadow being Sonic + Chaos Powers and Immortality is what he's been since the beginning.

And you don't see the problem with those two sentences?

How Sonic and Shadow are supposed to be equal, but Shadow is Sonic+Chaos powers?

[Tenko]

When he called Sonic the real "Ultimate Lifeform", I don't think he meant that he was made by Gerald. I think that he meant that Sonic is like a natural born ULF or at least something very close to it.

Oh yeah I get that. I mean being Eggmans grandfather was alive, I imagine Sonic wasn't born yet. I know there was the whole convoluted Black Doom crap, but did it ever explain why he was a hedgehog? Why are the ULF's hedgehogs. Why Sonic and him are so similar etc. I never really paid much mind to Shadow after SA2. So I may have missed some details.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Shadow taking less hits then Sonic can doesn't make much sense to me since their supposed to be equal. Shadow being Sonic + Chaos Powers and Immortality is what he's been since the beginning. 

Which is precisely my point. There's nothing equal about it when one character has more than just the same abilities as another character.

 

Shadow being Sonic + Chaos Powers and Immortality is DOES NOT make Shadow an equal to Sonic. It makes Sonic seem less than Shadow.

[Sparky]

I consider Sonic to have all the same Chaos powers as Shadow, he just doesn't want to use them. 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I consider Sonic to have all the same Chaos powers as Shadow, he just doesn't want to use them. 

Really? So Sonic has Chaos Blast and Chaos Spear? Since when?

 

The only thing we've seen him make recurring use of is Chaos Control. He has yet to do anything else.

[Splash the Otter]

Really? So Sonic has Chaos Blast and Chaos Spear? Since when?

 

The only thing we've seen him make recurring use of is Chaos Control. He has yet to do anything else.

And even then, he only used it in one game.

[Spin Attaxx]

The other time he used it was in The Game That Erased Itself.

[Splash the Otter]

The other time he used it was in The Game That Erased Itself.

I forgot about that. Most of NextGen is technically impossible anyway, so I wouldn't consider Sonic's use of chaos energy (or Silver's for that matter) canon.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

That's not really an excuse to write off the events that happened the game, dude. They happened in a mainstream game, so therefore what happened is canon even if it rewrote itself so that it was like it all never happened.

Edited April 17, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonîc

[Splash the Otter]

That's not really an excuse to write off the events that happened the game, dude. They happened in a mainstream game, so therefore what happened is canon even if it rewrote itself so that it was like it all never happened.

But what about the blue and white emeralds? According to NextGen, one was in a stable time loop that prevents it from existing before or after a span of ten years (during which it never left Soleanna), while the other simply didn't exist during the same period of time. Thus, any game where there were more than five emeralds would have to be noncanon.

[Sega DogTagz]

The blue emerald is only stuck in a time loop if you assume eggman somehow lost, and Silver found elise's emerald in White Acropolis.

 

If you go with the train of thought that the emerald Silver found was the blue emerald following the events of Shth, then Silver merely duplicates the blue chaos emerald by sending it back in time, rather than getting it stuck in an impossible time loop.

[Splash the Otter]

The blue emerald is only stuck in a time loop if you assume eggman somehow lost, and Silver found elise's emerald in White Acropolis.

 

If you go with the train of thought that the emerald Silver found was the blue emerald following the events of Shth, then Silver merely duplicates the blue chaos emerald by sending it back in time, rather than getting it stuck in an impossible time loop.

I suppose that could work, but we still have to account for the white emerald. If it didn't exist for the ten years prior to NextGen, what was Sonic using to activate his Super form?

[Sparky]

Really? So Sonic has Chaos Blast and Chaos Spear? Since when?

 

The only thing we've seen him make recurring use of is Chaos Control. He has yet to do anything else.

If he's able to use Chaos Control as well as Shadow can, as well as using the Chaos Emeralds more then anyone as well as having lots of skill in using their power, it wouldn't be crazy to think that Sonic can use those abilities, but he doesn't. He prefers to use himself as a weapon/projectile instead of just shooting spears out of his hand.

[Mr Useful]

If he's able to use Chaos Control as well as Shadow can, as well as using the Chaos Emeralds more then anyone as well as having lots of skill in using their power, it wouldn't be crazy to think that Sonic can use those abilities, but he doesn't. He prefers to use himself as a weapon/projectile instead of just shooting spears out of his hand.

Now if only we can say the same for Knuckles.

Too bad SEGA forgot that Knuckles can go Super(&Hyper, suck it Shadow and Silver)

[Splash the Otter]

If he's able to use Chaos Control as well as Shadow can, as well as using the Chaos Emeralds more then anyone as well as having lots of skill in using their power, it wouldn't be crazy to think that Sonic can use those abilities, but he doesn't. He prefers to use himself as a weapon/projectile instead of just shooting spears out of his hand.

Or maybe he isn't normally able to use the emeralds for anything other than his Super form, and his Chaos Control was only possible because he was in a life or death situation.

 

Now if only we can say the same for Knuckles.

Too bad SEGA forgot that Knuckles can go Super(&Hyper, suck it Shadow and Silver)

It's worse for Tails, because his Super form was the most unique. I miss those golden flickies...

Edited April 18, 2013 by ElectroKyurem

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

But what about the blue and white emeralds? According to NextGen, one was in a stable time loop that prevents it from existing before or after a span of ten years (during which it never left Soleanna), while the other simply didn't exist during the same period of time. Thus, any game where there were more than five emeralds would have to be noncanon.

Dude, the game is canon.

 

The issue with the blue and white emeralds is nothing more than bad writing, so I'm just going to leave it at that instead of trying to solve it. But I'm not throwing the whole game out as noncanon on that detail alone when it was made to be a mainstream game in the first place.