[DELETED]

[Sega DogTagz]

If we are going to throw away 06's canon status because of a plot hole, you can dang near throw away half the franchise while your at it.

Edited April 18, 2013 by Sega DogTagz

[Splash the Otter]

If we are going to throw away 06's canon status because of a plot hole, you can dang near throw away half the franchise while your at it.

I wouldn't consider it a plot hole so much as a plot abyss, but that's beside the point. Weren't we trying to balance Shadow so he doesn't outdo the other characters?

[Spin Attaxx]

I'd consider '06 non-canon, or if it absolutely-positively-the-fate-of-the-universe-depends-on-it needs to be canon, then it would be a split timeline like how Ocarina of Time led to either A Link To The Past, Majora's Mask or The Wind Waker. Really, with the Blue Emerald Paradox and Blaze's presence, a split timeline is the only way I can accept the game being canon with the rest of the series. I haven't heard anything about a White Emerald Paradox though.

 

As for Shadow, I have an idea: the Chaos Emeralds, instead of letting him turn super, let him use Chaos Control to stop time: fifty rings uses it, and for each emerald it lasts for an extra three seconds (up to a total of 24 seconds).

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Can't believe I missed this...

If he's able to use Chaos Control as well as Shadow can, as well as using the Chaos Emeralds more then anyone as well as having lots of skill in using their power, it wouldn't be crazy to think that Sonic can use those abilities, but he doesn't. He prefers to use himself as a weapon/projectile instead of just shooting spears out of his hand.

Until Sonic himself actually starts making use of those other powers beyond Chaos Control, I think we can chalk that up to him being incapable of doing so. While it may be possible for him to be allowed to use them, I'm not gonna believe simply because he can use Chaos Control and the Emeralds. That's not how you make connections to powers.

[Tenko]

Would "Sonic Wind" be his version of a Chaos move much like Chaos Spear? What do you chalk that up to?

[Diogenes]

Would "Sonic Wind" be his version of a Chaos move much like Chaos Spear? What do you chalk that up to?

I question its existence. The only time it's used that's debatably canon is the Sonic vs Shadow 2 fight, but I don't think what a player character does as a boss is necessarily an accurate portrayal of their canon abilities. Like Knuckles and Rouge's special moves in their fight, for example.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

It would if they brought it back, but at this point no.

[Sparky]

I question its existence. The only time it's used that's debatably canon is the Sonic vs Shadow 2 fight, but I don't think what a player character does as a boss is necessarily an accurate portrayal of their canon abilities. Like Knuckles and Rouge's special moves in their fight, for example.

I think what a character does as a boss is definitely canon abilities. 

 

I don't see why Sonic Wind wouldn't be canon anyway, Sonic is always described as being like the wind, and he has the Blue Tornado in Heroes. And when he's leveled up enough, Sonic can make a tornado just by homing attacking or rocket acceling or something.

 

And for the Knuckles/Rouge thing: Keep in mind that they in possession of all the pieces of the Master Emerald (probably the most powerful object in the universe) and several golden rings of an unspecified amount of power. Also keep in mind that Knuckles guards and can control the Master Emerald, as well as use to power up, and he also has those fire punches, earthquake punches, fire earthquake punches, and can summon meteors in Sonic Battle. Also keep in mind that Rouge has veeeery powerful kicks and has her own version of most of Knuckles moves, and later on Tails moves. ALSO keep in mind that almost every Sonic character has some form of super power.

Edited April 19, 2013 by tsz11

[Tenko]

I wouldn't call any of Battle's stuff cannon personally. No idea if its meant to be it not. But Adventure 2 is right? If you don't count Sonic Wind then you would have to discount stuff like Figure-8/Super Peek Out, that was only in like what, three games? Sonic CD, Sonic Chaos and Triple Trouble. People still debate if Chaos and TT are cannon, since Izuka seems so intent on ignoring the handheld stuff, especially the old handheld stuff. And Sonic hasnt used that move since the classic days.

Your probably right tho, I mean unless its a Chaos Power it doesnt make sense and it probably isn't a proper move. I mean all he does is clench his fist and it makes wind....how?

[Diogenes]

I think what a character does as a boss is definitely canon abilities.

Yeah but you think that anything that anyone has ever done in anything is canon, so what you "think" is true basically has no weight in my eyes.

I don't see why Sonic Wind wouldn't be canon anyway, Sonic is always described as being like the wind, and he has the Blue Tornado in Heroes. And when he's leveled up enough, Sonic can make a tornado just by homing attacking or rocket acceling or something.

He does Blue Tornado by physically spinning around. The tornado effect on his attacks at level 3 only happens with attacks that make him move quickly. What wind-related abilities he has come from his physical movement, not from chaos powers that let him create tornadoes at a distance.

And for the Knuckles/Rouge thing: Keep in mind that they in possession of all the pieces of the Master Emerald (probably the most powerful object in the universe) and several golden rings of an unspecified amount of power.

Rings barely even exist in canon and the power of the Master Emerald is debatable.

Also keep in mind that Knuckles guards and can control the Master Emerald, as well as use to power up, and he also has those fire punches, earthquake punches, fire earthquake punches, and can summon meteors in Sonic Battle.

His air shot special in Battle I don't count as a canon ability for similar reasons to not counting Sonic Wind; Knuckles was forced into a format that required him having an air shot ability, but he doesn't actually have one, so they created one that's thematically appropriate though not a power he actually has. His punches, that's just a combination of incredible physical strength and a thematic connection to fire via anger. As for using the Master Emerald, what he can do with it is highly debatable, and I don't think we've ever seen him use it for anything like that.

Also keep in mind that Rouge has veeeery powerful kicks and has her own version of most of Knuckles moves, and later on Tails moves.

What does this have to do with creating dark energy waves? She is able to do some things, that does not mean it's plausible for her to do literally anything.

ALSO keep in mind that almost every Sonic character has some form of super power.

Rouge has no super powers, she is a bat with martial arts training and some gadgets.

Honestly dude, I don't really want to make this personal, but I fuckin' hate your interpretation of the series, how it forces everything to be absolutely literal and requires every character to be a wizard of some sort rather than being successful through nonmagical strength and skill.

 

I wouldn't call any of Battle's stuff cannon personally. No idea if its meant to be it not. But Adventure 2 is right? If you don't count Sonic Wind then you would have to discount stuff like Figure-8/Super Peek Out, that was only in like what, three games? Sonic CD, Sonic Chaos and Triple Trouble. People still debate if Chaos and TT are cannon, since Izuka seems so intent on ignoring the handheld stuff, especially the old handheld stuff. And Sonic hasnt used that move since the classic days.

It's not a matter of how often it appears, it's a matter of context.

[Kuzu]

I think what a character does as a boss is definitely canon abilities. 

 

I don't see why Sonic Wind wouldn't be canon anyway, Sonic is always described as being like the wind, and he has the Blue Tornado in Heroes. And when he's leveled up enough, Sonic can make a tornado just by homing attacking or rocket acceling or something.

 

And for the Knuckles/Rouge thing: Keep in mind that they in possession of all the pieces of the Master Emerald (probably the most powerful object in the universe) and several golden rings of an unspecified amount of power. Also keep in mind that Knuckles guards and can control the Master Emerald, as well as use to power up, and he also has those fire punches, earthquake punches, fire earthquake punches, and can summon meteors in Sonic Battle. Also keep in mind that Rouge has veeeery powerful kicks and has her own version of most of Knuckles moves, and later on Tails moves. ALSO keep in mind that almost every Sonic character has some form of super power.

 

None of those abilities appear in any other game, and everything else you've said is nothing but speculation and based on evidence.

 

In other words: Stop making baseless claims and trying to arguing those as fact.

[Tenko]

Contextually what gives Shadow the ability to do Chaos Spear? Besides the loose "he's the ultimate life form and can harness the Chaos Emeralds" thing, which contextually could let him do anything Sonic Team wants and chalk it up to Chaos Power.

There is merit in Sonic being able to use Chaos Power to some extent. He can turn Super Sonic, he can use Chaos Control. Hell he even managed to use it with a fake (albeit using the same wavelengths according to Tails) emerald. Which shocked even Shadow. Perhaps the Chaos Energy can amplify Sonics speed and wind (based on his speed) type moves he has been shown to have? Sonic Wind explained? I dunno I'm just stabbing in the dark with what little facts you can base a conclusion around.

[Diogenes]

Well if you step back and look at it from a more meta perspective, it's pretty obvious why Sonic doesn't use Chaos powers; it's because it's not his thing. The time-stopping, teleporting, laser-shooting, DBZ wannabe position is Shadow's deal, while going fast and spinning like a buzzsaw is Sonic's.

 

I'm not saying there's no plausible way to write it so that Sonic has various Chaos powers, though. But I think it's pretty clear that Sonic Team has chosen not to, and I believe they made they right choice.

[Tenko]

Well said Diogenes. I would totally agree with all of that. It does seem that Sonic only uses what he has when he is desperate for a solution to the problem that has arisen.

[Kuzu]

On the subject of Shadow's DBZ wannabeness. Can we fix that, his powers are so out of place now. I was fine with Timestop, but its fucking ridiculous now. Everyone else has some type of unique physical ability or their powers aren't too game-breakng(Psychokinesis/psychokinesis), but Shadow is so fucking stupid with his shit; Time Control, Energy beams, Teleportion, Power limiters, its so out there even for this series to have a character like that as one of the protagonists.

 

I know he's meant to be the "Ultimate Life Form" but for whatever its supposed to mean, I'm pretty sure it doesn't have to translate to "Stupidly overpowered character". So...can we just get rid of some of his abilities and change the way his Sonic moveset works. I'm fine with keeping Chaos Control, but only if he can use it with an emerald but everything else needs to fucking go or at the very least extremely simplified.

 

If they Shadow to actually be Sonic's shadow then just give them the same moveset.

Edited April 19, 2013 by Not!Dante

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

 Everyone else has some type of unique physical ability or their powers aren't too game-breakng(Psychokinesis/psychokinesis), 

Da fuq? Are you doing this on purpose?

 

That IS game-breaking. More so than Shadow's is considering it allows teleportation, energy attacks, flight, speed, stun people, can lift heavy objects, and redirect projectiles. And that's just in ONE power of a character who can also Chaos Control.

 

I'd love that we balance Shadow too, but don't go and downplay another power like Silver's as "not too gamebreaking" when you know full and well that isn't true.

 

And no, we shouldn't get rid of his powers. For the hundredth time, make him a glass cannon, dude. It allows him to keep all those powers but at a high cost of defense. And seriously, we've discussed this several times, and I WILL go through each and every topic if I have to show you the debates, starting with this topic itself.

Edited April 19, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonîc

[Splash the Otter]

Da fuq? Are you doing this on purpose?

 

That IS game-breaking. More so than Shadow's is considering it allows teleportation, energy attacks, flight, speed, stun people, can lift heavy objects, and redirect projectiles. And that's just in ONE power of a character who can also Chaos Control.

 

I'd love that we balance Shadow too, but don't go and downplay another power like Silver's as "not too gamebreaking" when you know full and well that isn't true.

 

And no, we shouldn't get rid of his powers. For the hundredth time, make him a glass cannon, dude. It allows him to keep all those powers but at a high cost of defense. And seriously, we've discussed this several times, and I WILL go through each and every topic if I have to show you the debates, starting with this topic itself.

He does have a point, though. Shadow's arsenal of powers has really gotten out of hand. The most he needs is Control and Spear. As for Silver, I agree that his psychokinesis is a bit too overpowered. Maybe if it was limited to flight, the Psychic Knife, and a variation on the Magic Gloves from SA2?

[Kuzu]

Da fuq? Are you doing this on purpose?

 

That IS game-breaking. More so than Shadow's is considering it allows teleportation, energy attacks, flight, speed, stun people, can lift heavy objects, and redirect projectiles. And that's just in ONE power of a character who can also Chaos Control.

 

I'd love that we balance Shadow too, but don't go and downplay another power like Silver's as "not too gamebreaking" when you know full and well that isn't true.

 

And no, we shouldn't get rid of his powers. For the hundredth time, make him a glass cannon, dude. It allows him to keep all those powers but at a high cost of defense. And seriously, we've discussed this several times, and I WILL go through each and every topic if I have to show you the debates, starting with this topic itself.

 

Silver's powers are never presented as gamebreaking. The most we've seen is simply throw things, which isn't all that impressive. I understand he has potential but until we actually see him do the things you claim he can do, I don't see him as overpowered in the slightest.

 

And I'm not talking about Shadow's defense or style of attacking I'm talking his abilities and moveset, which I feel are incredibly overpowered. What's the point of low defense if he can just teleport out of the way? Or stop time? Its just too fucking much for this series. Seriously, why can't we tone him down? Half of those abilities aren't particularly useful in a platformer and don't serve much purpose beyond making Shadow a reject from a generic Shonen action series.

Edited April 19, 2013 by Not!Dante

[Diogenes]

On the subject of Shadow's DBZ wannabeness. Can we fix that, his powers are so out of place now. I was fine with Timestop, but its fucking ridiculous now. Everyone else has some type of unique physical ability or their powers aren't too game-breakng(Psychokinesis/psychokinesis), but Shadow is so fucking stupid with his shit; Time Control, Energy beams, Teleportion, Power limiters, its so out there even for this series to have a character like that as one of the protagonists.

Honestly I'm not sure he can ever be fully "grounded"; his powers are too much a part of him to strip them out in anything short of a full reboot, and there's really no way to spin teleportation, time-stopping, and lasers as something that fits alongside the rest of the cast. 

If they Shadow to actually be Sonic's shadow then just give them the same moveset.

That'd be boring tho'. Especially because Metal Sonic already exists in a similar kind of space; it's sketchy to have one character like that, it'd be dumb to have two.

And no, we shouldn't get rid of his powers. For the hundredth time, make him a glass cannon, dude. It allows him to keep all those powers but at a high cost of defense.

This is probably the best that can be done with him, but it's not the most satisfying answer; it helps balance him on a...let's call it a mathematical level, but on a thematic level he is still furry Vegeta in a series that is definitely not DBZ.

[Pawn]

It's difficult to say what powers they would give Shadow now anyway. He only used Chaos Spear (which seems to require quite a bit of effort and yet isn't much of an attack to begin with) and Chaos Control in Generations, so perhaps Sonic Team would dial him back to that for a future game? They could easily have added more after all - they even made up new ones for Silver. Not that consistency is much of a concern for them, but it could easily be explained that Shadow no longer taps into darker powers like Chaos Blast because he's not in that state of mind anymore (that's assuming that anything bad he did in ShTH is even canon to begin with).

 

Chaos Control needs more concrete limitations though. Firmly establishing that it requires a lot of energy without a Chaos Emerald is a start. Limiting it to teleportation would be good. Gameplay-wise that could mean slowing things down but only to get from one place to another (without getting crushed by rapidly moving object or something), not to attack enemies. Make him a bit slower so he can rival Sonic but not match him.

 

 

That'd be boring tho'. Especially because Metal Sonic already exists in a similar kind of space; it's sketchy to have one character like that, it'd be dumb to have two.

 

I agree that it would be boring for him to simply be a clone, but I don't see that Metal occupies that space. He never struck me as much of a Sonic clone to begin with, in terms of abilities. He's fast, but he can barely maintain that speed. He is able to fly, indefinitely from what we've seen, which seems decidedly un-Sonic to me. Add in electrical attacks and shields, not to mention that bloody copy ability, and he's less like Sonic than ever. As far as I can remember, the first time he ever even rolled into a ball (when not a reskin) was Sonic 4: Episode 2.

[Kuzu]

Honestly I'm not sure he can ever be fully "grounded"; his powers are too much a part of him to strip them out in anything short of a full reboot, and there's really no way to spin teleportation, time-stopping, and lasers as something that fits alongside the rest of the cast. 

 

True, but you can tone him down at least, put limitations on those abilities so they aren't presented as gamebreaking. Chaos Spear can be his generic energy blast, but shit like Chaos Control or Chaos Blast should need special conditions to use and have some drawback.

 

 

That'd be boring tho'. Especially because Metal Sonic already exists in a similar kind of space; it's sketchy to have one character like that, it'd be dumb to have two.

 

 

Its boring, but its what he started out as back in SA2; a dark Sonic. I mean if Metal Sonic has to be the sonic clone of the series then like I said, rework is chaos powers to they aren't too out there.

 

 

 

I really fucking hate this quoting system. Chris plz nerf.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

He does have a point, though. Shadow's arsenal of powers has really gotten out of hand. The most he needs is Control and Spear. As for Silver, I agree that his psychokinesis is a bit too overpowered. Maybe if it was limited to flight, the Psychic Knife, and a variation on the Magic Gloves from SA2?

 

Shadows arsenal only consists of Control (a teleport), Spear (a projectile), and Blast (an explosion), and that's about it unless you start including Sonic Battle abilities.

 

So there's really nothing out of hand compared to everything I said about Silver who powers can allow him to cheat at flight, speed, and super strength, along with projectile attacks, teleportation, a stun, and can grab and throw you if you get near him.

Silver's powers are never presented as gamebreaking. The most we've seen is simply throw things, which isn't all that impressive. I understand he has potential but until we actually see him do the things you claim he can do, I don't see him as overpowered in the slightest.

 

Really?

you're telling me 

this is the same game

in the same game,

 

Let me ask you again, are you doing this on purpose?

And I'm not talking about Shadow's defense or style of attacking I'm talking his abilities and moveset, which I feel are incredibly overpowered. What's the point of low defense if he can just teleport out of the way? Or stop time? Its just too fucking much for this series. Seriously, why can't we tone him down? Half of those abilities aren't particularly useful in a platformer and don't serve much purpose beyond making Shadow a reject from a generic Shonen action series.

The point in low defense even when he can just teleport around or stop time is so that he doesn't freaking get hit, or else he's in serious trouble. That's kind of the point for a Glass Cannon high offense so that they don't think their invincible when going into a fight, and you don't need to get rid of any of the powers he already has.

 

There's nothing overpowered when you put a high cost to having all those powers, because when you take hits like tissue paper then all someone needs to do is get of just a few good hits off of you. All Shadow has in his abilities is nothing but offense and speed, so preying on that allows for balance.

 

And if half of those abilities aren't useful, why don't you find a way to make them useful before you resort to toning them down? Because I'm pretty sure you know how to come with ideas off the top of your head on how to use them.

Edited April 19, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonîc

[Komodin]

And no, we shouldn't get rid of his powers. For the hundredth time, make him a glass cannon, dude. It allows him to keep all those powers but at a high cost of defense.

 

Mind me asking, but how exactly would that even work in the usual Sonic gameplay, where you can survive almost anything as long as you have at least one ring?

[SenEDDtor Missile]

Mind me asking, but how exactly would that even work in the usual Sonic gameplay, where you can survive almost anything as long as you have at least one ring?

Longer recovery time after being hit? Being knocked back farther after being hit? Can't use any Chaos Powers after being hit for a short period?

[Spin Attaxx]

Requires significant amounts of rings/emeralds to use Chaos powers (effectively)?