Megathread IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog - Megathread

[Diogenes]

1 hour ago, PublicEnemy1 said:

They may be more cohesive, but that's because games don't focus on story. Comics, however, do. You got to read a lot of issues to understand the comic, but that's because IT'S A FUCKING COMIC. Y'know, where the story is ongoing until it either ends on the creator's own terms, or it's cancelled. Yes, the games are easier to understand, but they are supposed to be more simple while comics are more complex.

I don't think any of that is inherently true, though?

I mean, maybe as far as Sonic is concerned the games' stories have been relatively simple compared to the comics, but there are games with deep, complex storytelling, and there are comics that are simple and short.

[Sega DogTagz]

3 hours ago, Diogenes said:

I don't think any of that is inherently true, though?

I mean, maybe as far as Sonic is concerned the games' stories have been relatively simple compared to the comics, but there are games with deep, complex storytelling, and there are comics that are simple and short.

Inherently true? No. But you have to get the jist of whats being said here. There are always exceptions. Its true that there are a good amount of games out there that can puff out their chest with deep, robust and well written storytelling. There is nothing preventing games from crossing over that threshold, so long as the developer in question chooses to prioritize it as a major player in the total package. RPGs for example are very story heavy, as it is more important to keep the player invested for 100+ hours. A good story can help with that.

But when you step back and look at the genre as a whole. Especially video games like Sonic where 9 times out of 10, the story is little more than a fun loose narrative to connect the action on screen, then its not out of bounds to expect more out of a comic.

I've never stepped into any new Sonic game... save for maybe Chronicles before we knew how much of a disaster that was going to be, looking for labyrinthine story points, dynamic and complex character development and a story that would constantly 1 up itself at every turn. You don't expect that out of a Sonic game, and so long as the story remains a second class citizen, then no one should. When you get some good character development, like say Black Knight, then you can feel good that they did something to push Sonic as a character. But there is only so much that can be done with the limited real estate Sonic Team has to tell a story. You can't have a hundred plot twists. You can't give characters too long to dwell on their mistakes or learn their lessons. Sonic Team's gotta ram their entire story down your face hole in the space between 12 or so stages.

The comics are a different story. They have (theoretically speaking) am infinite amount of real estate. So long as the reader is kept interested in engaged, it can take as long as it needs to when it comes to building up its climax, world-building and connecting the dots to whats going to happen down the line. You go into the comic, with a much higher expectation of a deeper more compelling story. Sonic v Eggman, spindash, the end doesn't cut it here.

While that can make a comic intimating, and doubly so for the ones that run for a long time, that was the appeal of a comic like Archie Sonic. It was designed to give us more than the games. Push Sonic into situations that couldn't be told over in the games. Give each character their own plights and their own story-lines to follow. If thats a barrier to entry, I'd call it a necessary evil.

 

... plus its not like good planning cant create "jump off points" for new readers. Ian got a crash course on that over the course of like 3 reboots.

[Marco9966]

I hope to get some side stories by other writers like Aleah Baker, Tracey Yardley Evan Stanley (of course under the direction of Flynn and the editors to keep the story cohesive, not like pre-reboot where there was a clash of writer's visions...)

[RedFox99]

3 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

I've never stepped into any new Sonic game... save for maybe Chronicles before we knew how much of a disaster that was going to be, looking for labyrinthine story points, dynamic and complex character development and a story that would constantly 1 up itself at every turn. You don't expect that out of a Sonic game, and so long as the story remains a second class citizen, then no one should

Especially since recent games have the stories (according to the total amount of cutscenes) to be around half an hour), which isn't that much time to tell a deep and enjoyable story

3 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

... plus it's not like good planning cant create "jump off points" for new readers. Ian got a crash course on that over the course of like 3 reboots.

 

Wait, what was the third reboot?

[Your Vest Friend]

There has been one reboot, and that's the 252 one. Archie to IDW isn't a reboot, it's just an entirely new continuity branch. You wouldn't say Underground was a reboot of SatAM even though it had quite a few of the same creative staff working on it (and a few similar concepts in that case).

[Shadowlax]

22 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

Here's a tricky question: is there something you want from IDW that Archie did wrong/could done better?

I mean, aside giving more love for Insert-Favorite-Character-Name.

SHADOW ALL THE TIME, NEVER STOP SKATING

Seriously, having characters hang out with different characters for unique dynamics.

While this is problably not gonna happen because this was specifically a pre-boot failure, but this might happen because bad unprofessional new writers with ideas who might hate your characters, though they have to get it through approval so... that helps, But 2nd thing is " don't throw characters under the bus/ruin their personalities to tell your story that's probably dumb and bad"

Don't start narratives and don't address them for several years if they are supposed to be super important, they need to maybe realize they don't as of currently have a lot of realistate and maybe not start say...dangerous alien plots that need to be urgently solved and we don't see that alien for like 4 years. Don't, don't do that, you know what ruins the pacing of a story that deems it self urgent. Not addressed the fucking story

When you realize your long drawn out thing isn't really something folks care about, maybe its time to drop it

Realize that not every games narrative is salvagable in an interesting way, and move on

World build better, not all world building needs to be in your face. These things can be handled in the background  , leaving the audience to speculate, no need to make characters travel across the world for that. 

Use blaze

[Sonictrainer]

58 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

World build better, not all world building needs to be in your face. These things can be handled in the background  , leaving the audience to speculate, no need to make characters travel across the world for that. 

Do you have good and bad examples of this?

[DabigRG]

1 hour ago, Shadowlax said:

...dangerous alien plots that need to be urgently solved and we don't see that alien for like 4 years.

Which one? Cause both of the ones that come to mind make sense in context of what they entailed.

[DaddlerTheDalek]

I just want an entertaining comic book series. I can't wait for next month!

[Shadowlax]

38 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Which one? Cause both of the ones that come to mind make sense in context of what they entailed.

They don't, at least the one i'm thinking of 

" Hey that alien shadow punched the shit out of has a bunch of other smaller aliens with im that could potentially grow and multiply like... the last time they were here. Can psychologically trick him for small moments of time because shadow's half xenomorph and eats people. We should probably handle that " 

Several years later 

" Oh man shadow's back, I bet he's gonna fight.... Nope, he's fighting a dumb elf. A dumb elf no one cares about, not the alien thread who...the last time was around, almost got the master emerald by himself and begun the planet eating process. Also sine he has mind powers and since there's more aliens he could probably could call more shadow's cousins to help come down and eat the planet. But we gotta fight this dumb elf because this irrelevant character to modern sonic continuity must be established for reasons "

44 minutes ago, Sonictrainer said:

Do you have good and bad examples of this?

Do you mean in general or sonic related

The answer to both of these is yes

[MetalSkulkBane]

...elf?

[Big Panda]

3 minutes ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

...elf?

Naugus

[Razule]

7 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

 

" Oh man shadow's back, I bet he's gonna fight.... Nope, he's fighting a dumb elf. A dumb elf no one cares about, not the alien thread who...the last time was around, almost got the master emerald by himself and begun the planet eating process. Also sine he has mind powers and since there's more aliens he could probably could call more shadow's cousins to help come down and eat the planet. But we gotta fight this dumb elf because this irrelevant character to modern sonic continuity must be established for reasons "

Uh.. oh, you mean Naugus.

[Eurisko]

I love this art style for Amy especially , looks beautiful.

 

[Korke]

Wait, which was the third reboot? We're going on the second one here, did he meant other medias like Megaman or etc?

[MetalSkulkBane]

1 minute ago, Ernest-Panda said:

Naugus

That can't be right. 16 months isn't "several years", Naugus is way older than Eclipse and looks nothing like elf.

Clearly Shadowlax meant someone else.

Snark aside, I can agree that there were plot lines stretch for ever, but Eclipse wasn't it. Compare it to Neo Walkers, Trash, Finitevus, search for Matilda. Reboot wasn't nearly as bad, although Werehog teasing got annoying and who knows how long we would wait for Silver/Blaze plotlines to move on. And Shattered Word pacing is completely different story.

Personally I don't mind that Shadow got a little filler where he got to fight someone else than Eclipse, it avoids monotony (cough cough smashing badniks cough). His implementation is a different thing, but in theory I don't mind.

[DabigRG]

2 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

Snark aside, I can agree that there were plot lines stretch for ever, but Eclipse wasn't it. Compare it to Neo Walkers, Thrash, Finitevus, search for Matilda.

To be fair, the first two were put on hold due to SEGA and Finitevus was planned to be the villain of the next milestone.

2 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

Reboot wasn't nearly as bad, although Werehog teasing got annoying

How long did it take, exactly? Cause I seem to recall it only flaring up two or three times before Sonic properly transformed.

2 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

who knows how long we would wait for Silver/Blaze plotlines to move on.

Silver, Gold, and Von Schlemmer's revisit was dependent on Evan Stanley.

Also, Blaze had a plotline?

 

3 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

" Hey that alien shadow punched the shit out of has a bunch of other smaller aliens with im that could potentially grow and multiply like... the last time they were here. Can psychologically trick him for small moments of time because shadow's half xenomorph and eats people. We should probably handle that " 

 

Recall that the only reason they were able to find those Eclipse and the surviving Dark Arms was because they tracked his escape shuttle to Angel Island. After the fighting that took place and Rhygenta incapacitated the Rivals, the alients hijacked the GUN shuttle and crashed into a swamp.

 

And given that the excuse for why Team Dark showed up in Mobotropolis was that they thought Eclipse was on West Island, it's not that they weren't looking for him so much as they can't accurately track him.

3 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

" Oh man shadow's back, I bet he's gonna fight.... Nope, he's fighting a dumb elf. A dumb elf no one cares about, not the alien thread who...the last time was around, almost got the master emerald by himself and begun the planet eating process. Also sine he has mind powers and since there's more aliens he could probably could call more shadow's cousins to help come down and eat the planet. But we gotta fight this dumb elf because this irrelevant character to modern sonic continuity must be established for reasons "

If you mean Naugus, he was a troll.

And Team Dark shouldn't have been in that story to begin with. Their presence was a general complaint with it.

 

Also, I thought the whole point of Black Death's Comet was to act as a substitute hive mind to lead the Black Arms in handling matters when Black Doom couldn't?

[Big Panda]

21 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

How long did it take, exactly? Cause I seem to recall it only flaring up two or three times before Sonic properly transformed.

Not that long tbf. The first tease happened in 254 and the full transformation was in 264, so about a year.

[Shadowlax]

3 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

 

Snark aside, I can agree that there were plot lines stretch for ever, but Eclipse wasn't it. Compare it to Neo Walkers, Trash, Finitevus, search for Matilda. Reboot wasn't nearly as bad, although Werehog teasing got annoying and who knows how long we would wait for Silver/Blaze plotlines to move on. And Shattered Word pacing is completely different story.

Personally I don't mind that Shadow got a little filler where he got to fight someone else than Eclipse, it avoids monotony (cough cough smashing badniks cough). His implementation is a different thing, but in theory I don't mind.

All those were bad, everything you are comparing it to were bad. And maybe if you don't have enough comic book realistate to tell the type of long form stories about various characters maybe you should wait until you do. " Its not as bad as these worse things " isn't an excuse, its still  bad

And I don't mind shadow going to other shit... its what I want him to do in this new book. Its what I wanted him to do in the old book, but don't establish urgency and then go " lets handle some shit about a badly designed character " 

[Sega DogTagz]

6 hours ago, RedFox99 said:

Wait, what was the third reboot?

 

3 hours ago, Korke said:

Wait, which was the third reboot? We're going on the second one here, did he meant other medias like Megaman or etc?

 

Oh, I was talking about the Genesis Wave in particular. Each time the doctor uses it (once in an untold Advance Adaption, Once in the leadup to Worlds Collide and again at its conclusion) (and possibly again at the end of Genesis of a Hero) Ian got to step back and assess the canon as a whole. Its a plot device that is an intrinsic reboot and in the cases of the ones that were designed to rewrite everything, i.e. not return to the status quo, they also double as the perfect starting pad for new readers looking to get into the comics.

[Sonictrainer]

5 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

The answer to both of these is yes

Then by all means, please share.

[DabigRG]

1 hour ago, Shadowlax said:

All those were bad, everything you are comparing it to were bad. And maybe if you don't have enough comic book realistate to tell the type of long form stories about various characters maybe you should wait until you do. " Its not as bad as these worse things " isn't an excuse, its still  bad

 

And why, pray tell, were these apparently so?

[Marco9966]

Would you like to see Extreme Gears from Sonic Riders again?

They were common means of transportation in post-reboot.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

7 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

Several years later 

" Oh man shadow's back, I bet he's gonna fight.... Nope, he's fighting a dumb elf. A dumb elf no one cares about, not the alien thread who...the last time was around, almost got the master emerald by himself and begun the planet eating process. Also sine he has mind powers and since there's more aliens he could probably could call more shadow's cousins to help come down and eat the planet. But we gotta fight this dumb elf because this irrelevant character to modern sonic continuity must be established for reasons "

Ya know, these petty potshots you like to make really says a lot about the kind of standards you really have. And they’re not as good as you think.

 I’m just gonna leave it at that since everyone else already covered the actual narrative.

[Shadowlax]

2 hours ago, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

Ya know, these petty potshots you like to make really says a lot about the kind of standards you really have. And they’re not as good as you think.

 I’m just gonna leave it at that since everyone else already covered the actual narrative.

My standards are " I would rather have good designed characters around , who are interesting and have relevance to the franchise " yes. 

You can hold me to that. 

4 hours ago, Sonictrainer said:

Then by all means, please share.

Good Sonic example: The sea people, they didn't do a lot with them. But it was strategic, instead of forcing sonic to travel across the world, wasting whole books on something that could have been religated to panel montages and references. They went to a place that mattered, by establishing this place, they now have the entire sea to work with. Or had the entire sea because new book. My point is that this opened up so much potential for the world with a fun story and didn't really take up too many books and could be returned to and expanded upon at anytime with out any resistance. The black arms also fall under this, the black arms weren't around much ( they should have been ) but with establishing eclipse and his clique they effected expanded the universe beyond wisps, and they even had wips. They even expanded the concepts wips. 

Bad sonic example: The entire unleashed mess that was the main book for several years. Maybe you should rush world building to tell a bad story , with characters from a game who's only interesting part was the day time gameplay. Maybe everything isn't salvageable. Maybe instead of rushing world building to tell a story, you take time and maybe save the world trotting adventure untill you established a world to be in. Because if you don't you just say " hey this exists, " and then never address it again, and never really gave it enough attention to get me to care about it in the first place. Cared about that tournament, oh yeah that thing that expanded the world and the characters and didn't feel forced.

Good Not sonic example: Adventure time, now adventure time has had plenty of episodes explaining its lore, world and characters, particularly in the late game. However when it began, while did have fun and jake going on mathematical adventures all around the land, there were larger mysteryies and things presented, in the background. This is something the sonic comic failed at. Not every peice of world building needs to be a character going " HEY, HEY LOOK AT THAT SHIT OVER THERE ITS PROBABLY IMPORTANT I DUNNO " . There's a lot of shit that could have been religated to background explanation. Like half the werehog arc, or Nagus, or the fact gun was helping people during all that. You could have had gun ships helping people ine the background of sonic comics, and just... never had to explain that. Its almost as if the audience as some form of intelligence, and if you put shit in the background and place it good, dots will connect. Adventure time did this alot and people pretty much guessed it was post apoc pretty fast. You are using a visual medium, use that to have layed story telling 

Not Good Not Sonic example: The beginning of pokemon. The first few pokemon games were games who were kind of flying at the seat of their pants ( and arguably still are in many ways ) its a world wide phenomenon pokemon is a house hold names, your brand makes more money than mario and you are commending TV, Video games, Toys ect with your presence. The first 3 pokemon are pretty standard shonen fair in the notion that pokemon land is pretty limited in why people are doing things and their jobs ect. A lot of the lore  , particularly stuff around pokemon isn't really established and contradictory. And nothings particularly outside of the realm " This is a place base don japan with fight animals and everyones lives revovles around said fight animals " and they don't go about....showing how that works. Gen 3 the villains in it start that trend, but that don't do much with the concept. They mention eco terrorism... and that's all you get. 

Its not untill gen 4 where you get people across the planet get introduced, it turns out pokemon land has people who aren't just japanese, and real pokemon based jobs. Like...real ones, not fictional ones, like ones with a practical in world usage. They introduced them here and there before, but gen 4 despite its questionable gameplay at the beginning really starts even with its characters designs rearing the world into... a world. And starts bringing the series closer to " realism " as real as pokemon can get. Each pokemon game since then even the remake of 3 has expanded this concept several times fold, while retaining its crazy ass fictional elements . Making the world ... a world that people could actually live in that is in many ways reflective of our reality. 

Before it was like " I fish, or I work at a factory " and that was most you got for like... pokemon use cases. But now its like " I do pokemon fashion " or " I run a mining company with ground pokemon " and shit like that. Where as before it was like " work at a shrine a I guess, I got a pokemon " I mean its still like that, but now the person at the shrine might actually like... serve a function in that world besides " I"m shrine person with pokemon "