Pontaff Retrospective: What's Up with all the Hate?

[Nepenthe]

Ease up on the image responses and jokes everyone.

[Chris Knopps]

Just now, Nepenthe said:

Ease up on the image responses and jokes everyone.

Eh, I'd say let folks have a moment of hype/hope, it doesn't exactly come as often as it used to.

Granted I see the implications of it possibly drawing out, but for now, I'd say let it slide and enjoy the moment of relief, cause you never know the hell we might find tomorrow revolving this franchise. lol

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

1 hour ago, Adamabba said:

But at least now we have more faith in it to be good.

And that is alright. 

But I am just saying it doesn't mean it gonna magically be good. The goodness of the story depends on the dedication the writers put in, not necessarily who is writing it. 

[Chris Knopps]

Just now, Mikyeong said:

And that is alright. 

But I am just saying it doesn't mean it gonna magically be good. The goodness of the story depends on the dedication the writers put in, not necessarily who is writing it. 

This is true, but still. The possibility of a different writer for a main game after so many years of the duo we've had is enough cause for praise on SEGA's part for FINALLY having the common sense to replace staff instead of keeping the same tired ones no matter the criticism/sales.

A step in the right direction whether the story be good or bad if you ask me.

[DBZHedgy]

Meh, I don't think they're inherently flawed, I just want some fresh blood in making the plots, or maybe even an old plot writer, but I'm just tired of Pontac and Graff in general. 

They've been the longest lasting plot writers of the whole series, and I'd just like something new. It could be bad or good, or whatever, but they've just worn out their welcome is all.

[DarkLight]

I'm just going to get something off my chest. Something that has being nagging me for a while and I might as well bring it up since some here have alluded to it.

People still insist having Ian Flynn as a writer will fix everything currently wrong with the game's narratives? I'm sorry, I'm just confused. Like he'd get better treatment from Sega than P&G ever did? He already has to deal with mandates from them regarding the comic, something most people have expressed grievance with already, suppose he did ever get the job, what would happen? More or less Sega telling what to do and not do. What exactly changes here? 

Look, I think his writing is just okay, and get why he's well-liked by fans, that's fine with me. It's also fine to be dissatisfied with P&G's work (though treating them like utter shit is where I draw the line. I...just refuse to believe him being a fan automatically covers any flaws with his writing. Being a fan is certainly a plus, but it's not really a requirement, as hard as that might be for some people.

[DBZHedgy]

3 minutes ago, DarkLight said:

I'm just going to get something off my chest. Something that has being nagging me for a while and I might as well bring it up since some here have alluded to it.

People still insist having Ian Flynn as a writer will fix everything currently wrong with the game's narratives? I'm sorry, I'm just confused. Like he'd get better treatment from Sega than P&G ever did? He already has to deal with mandates from them regarding the comic, something most people have expressed grievance with already, suppose he did ever get the job, what would still happen? More or less Sega telling what to do and not do. What exactly changes here? 

Look, I think his writing is just okay, and get why he's well-liked by fans, that's fine with me. It's also fine to be dissatisfied with P&G's work (though treating like utter shit is where I draw the line. I also refuse to believe him being a fan automatically covers any flaws with his writing. Being a fan is certainly a plus, but it's not really a requirement, as hard as that might be for some people.

I'm not sticking to the "Hate Pontaff" group or the "All for Ian Flynn" campaign, but I'd much rather take someone who knows their Sonic over someone who knew little to nothing.

[Chris Knopps]

7 minutes ago, DarkLight said:

I'm just going to get something off my chest. Something that has being nagging me for a while and I might as well bring it up since some here have alluded to it.

People still insist having Ian Flynn as a writer will fix everything currently wrong with the game's narratives? I'm sorry, I'm just confused. Like he'd get better treatment from Sega than P&G ever did? He already has to deal with mandates from them regarding the comic, something most people have expressed grievance with already, suppose he did ever get the job, what would still happen? More or less Sega telling what to do and not do. What exactly changes here? 

Look, I think his writing is just okay, and get why he's well-liked by fans, that's fine with me. It's also fine to be dissatisfied with P&G's work (though treating like utter shit is where I draw the line. I also refuse to believe him being a fan automatically covers any flaws with his writing. Being a fan is certainly a plus, but it's not really a requirement, as hard as that might be for some people.

Ahhh SEGA...

They forced NiGHTS from the 360 and PS3 to the Wii, making even Iizuka finally step up against them albeit to no avail, they forced Rise of Lyric from said consoles to the Wii U, causing most staff to quit and whichever didn't to be "let go" anyways... Is there ANYBODY working for them, or used to, that doesn't scream inside on a daily basis how much they hate the company and/or their jobs? lmfao

I beg to differ after the ignorance we've gotten out of the franchise since the current writers got involved. Being a fan is a must, and if not, at least SOME type of interest/pride in the franchise, instead of someone who tells fans he doesn't even talk about the character he writes for.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

7 minutes ago, DarkLight said:

I'm just going to get something off my chest. Something that has being nagging me for a while and I might as well bring it up since some here have alluded to it.

People still insist having Ian Flynn as a writer will fix everything currently wrong with the game's narratives? I'm sorry, I'm just confused. Like he'd get better treatment from Sega than P&G ever did? He already has to deal with mandates from them regarding the comic, something most people have expressed grievance with already, suppose he did ever get the job, what would still happen? More or less Sega telling what to do and not do. What exactly changes here? 

Look, I think his writing is just okay, and get why he's well-liked by fans, that's fine with me. It's also fine to be dissatisfied with P&G's work (though treating like utter shit is where I draw the line. I also refuse to believe him being a fan automatically covers any flaws with his writing. Being a fan is certainly a plus, but it's not really a requirement, as hard as that might be for some people.

Exactly. I'm not saying that P&G being fans will make their writing better, same with Flynn but I just don't think Flynn is going to be the Sonic angel than will fix everything, Same with the old writers actually. 

[Chris Knopps]

1 minute ago, Mikyeong said:

Exactly. I'm not saying that P&G being fans will make their writing better, same with Flynn but I just don't think Flynn is going to be the Sonic angel than will fix everything, Same with the old writers actually. 

Well, personally given his record with the characters, which being more of a positive reception in general compared to the current two controlling the games scripts, I'd give that reason enough alone to give him the helm for a game or two.

You can't start jumping to conclusions and shutting down everything without first having a sample of his style in a game. Although given current situations the indifferent attitude is to be expected, at the same time it doesn't hurt to acknowledge the clear difference in fan reception between the writers.

[Wraith]

4 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

I beg to differ after the ignorance we've gotten out of the franchise since the current writers got involved. Being a fan is a must, and if not, at least SOME type of interest/pride in the franchise, instead of someone who tells fans he doesn't even talk about the character he writes for.

I don't get why the fact that Pontaff aren't necessarily fans of the series always comes under fire. There are plenty of cases where a person that had never even seen anything from a franchise before they got a job working on it. This is a normal thing.

[Chris Knopps]

4 minutes ago, Wraith said:

I don't get why the fact that Pontaff aren't necessarily fans of the series always comes under fire. There are plenty of cases where a person that had never even seen anything from a franchise before they got a job working on it. This is a normal thing.

I find that zero reason to find the decision acceptable nonetheless to "try what the other folks do" revolving writers if that's the case.

Especially revolving films like all the super hero movies, Star Wars, etc, you wanna touch that you better d@mn well be a fan with a know-how for what the hell you're doing with who you're writing for.

I highly, HIGHLY doubt you'd ever see someone bring in a writer and say "You've got zero knowledge and zero personal interest... Start writing!!" like SEGA basically did with the current Sonic writers.

[DarkLight]

17 minutes ago, Wraith said:

I don't get why the fact that Pontaff aren't necessarily fans of the series always comes under fire. There are plenty of cases where a person that had never even seen anything from a franchise before they got a job working on it. This is a normal thing.

This. Yes, doing some research for material you're working on can and will help, something P&G unfortunately didn't get mostly because Sega didn't care to give it to them, but you certainly don't need to be a "fan" for the position. Hell, just calling yourself a fan won't matter in the long run. Remember how M. Night Shaymalan claimed he was a fan of Avatar: The Last Airbender? What did that leave us? An awful movie based on what he supposedly loved, but really just made you wonder if he really watched the show, or at least watched it in fast-forward. Him being a fan did in no way make up for his abysmal writing and directing. Like I said, being a fan is a plus, but not a requirement and certainly not a free pass in being bad in other departments such as writing/directing/producing/yougetthepicture.

[DBZHedgy]

5 minutes ago, Wraith said:

I don't get why the fact that Pontaff aren't necessarily fans of the series always comes under fire. There are plenty of cases where a person that had never even seen anything from a franchise before they got a job working on it. This is a normal thing.

I feel like the fact that they're inconsistency with characters are because of that lack of knowledge.

If they got the consistency right and they still did little to no research than no one would complain. Simply enough.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

However at least they took the time to research the series instead of going in blindly. 

[Dr. Crusher]

1 minute ago, Wraith said:

I don't get why the fact that Pontaff aren't necessarily fans of the series always comes under fire. There are plenty of cases where a person that had never even seen anything from a franchise before they got a job working on it. This is a normal thing.

This criticism always puzzled me as well. For example, I'm not an expert on Star Trek, but I heard that Nicholas Meyer, the guy responsible for Wrath of Khan, knew next to nothing about the franchise before working on the film, and essentially had to binge-watch the whole original series in order to get an idea of what sort of material he was working with. Yet sure enough, that film became not only a success, but it's still considered by many Trek fans to be one of if not the greatest thing to come out of the franchise.

So yeah, I won't disagree that having interest in a series/being a fan of it can certainly help from time to time, but I don't think it's an inherent make or break detail in the grand scheme of things.

[Chris Knopps]

1 minute ago, Dr. Crusher said:

This criticism always puzzled me as well. For example, I'm not an expert on Star Trek, but I heard that Nicholas Meyer, the guy responsible for Wrath of Khan, knew next to nothing about the franchise before working on the film, and essentially had to binge-watch the whole original series in order to get an idea of what sort of material he was working with. Yet sure enough, that film became not only a success, but it's still considered by many Trek fans to be one of if not the greatest thing to come out of the franchise.

So yeah, I won't disagree that having interest in a series/being a fan of it can certainly help from time to time, but I don't think it's an inherent make or break detail in the grand scheme of things.

Sounds like an entirely different level of dedication to researching the product than the current Sonic writers even tried to go for.

Going by their description they just skimmed Wiki and started writing.

[Wraith]

3 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

I find that zero reason to find the decision acceptable nonetheless to "try what the other folks do" revolving writers if that's the case.

Especially revolving films like all the super hero movies, Star Wars, etc, you wanna touch that you better d@mn well be a fan with a know-how for what the hell you're doing with who you're writing for.

I highly, HIGHLY doubt you'd ever see someone bring in a writer and say "You've got zero knowledge and zero personal interest... Start writing!!" like SEGA basically did with the current Sonic writers.

Bryan Singer never read X Men comics before taking on the movie adaptation and even banned comics from the set. X Men is one of the longest running and most successful superhero franchises around. Being a fan is not a requirement. You just have to have an idea of what the fuck you're doing.

3 minutes ago, DBZHedgy said:

I feel like the fact that they're inconsistency with characters are because of that lack of knowledge.

If they got the consistency right and they still did little to no research than no one would complain. Simply enough.

Their consistency isn't really a problem though? The characters were never really all that consistent BEFORE they took over. They arguably act more conistent now then ever.

 

 

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

1 minute ago, Wraith said:

Their consistency isn't really a problem though? The characters were never really all that consistent BEFORE they took over. They arguably act more conistent now then ever.

Actually they kinda became inconsistent when Sonic Adventure 2 came out in my opinion. I could be wrong.

[DBZHedgy]

5 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Their consistency isn't really a problem though? The characters were never really all that consistent BEFORE they took over. They arguably act more consistent now then ever.

Not really? Lost World?

[Chris Knopps]

3 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Bryan Singer never read X Men comics before taking on the movie adaptation and even banned comics from the set. X Men is one of the longest running and most successful superhero franchises around. Being a fan is not a requirement. You just have to have an idea of what the fuck you're doing.

Their consistency isn't really a problem though? The characters were never really all that consistent BEFORE they took over. They arguably act more conistent now then ever.

 

 

...Actually I think the consistency in character was pretty much on the same level if not more consistent considering how awkwardly bipolar everyone is now.

And a one in a million occurrence of success without any prior knowledge or research on an established franchise is JUST that, one in a million. It may happen from time to time by sheer stroke of luck, but that's it.

I suppose the better thing to say is to hire writers, IF they're NOT fans and have no knowledge of the franchise, who are more dedicated and passionate about their work and are willing to go above and beyond to learn everything as spot on as possible, to research not only the franchise itself thoroughly but its consumer base too.

[Wraith]

2 minutes ago, DBZHedgy said:

Not really? Lost World?

Tails acting up is the exception and even then he still had some traits from Colors carry over. The other characters pretty much act the same in every game they've written for.

 

3 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

I suppose the better thing to say is to hire writers, IF they're NOT fans and have no knowledge of the franchise, who are more dedicated and passionate about their work and are willing to go above and beyond to learn everything as spot on as possible, to research not only the franchise itself thoroughly but its consumer base too.

This is just what you should have asked for from the beginning. Whether they're personally invested in Sonic or not shouldn't matter. A good writer can make it work regardless

[E-122-Psi]

What you also have to keep in mind is that, being a fan, you can also let personal or emotional preference for parts of the franchise take over your writing, leading to occasional moments things can border as fan fic inserts (while Ian keeps it subtle, I can't lie I NEVER see moments of this in his work). Having a writer who is apathetic to the franchise in particular but is at least interested in making a good story can lead to a more even and professional approach.

While Pontaff and Boom (which is comprised of writers who are or are not experienced with the franchise) have caused some polarising moments and have some blatant uneasy writing at times, they have added some interesting twists that I feel a writer who is a fan may be more unwilling to test in fear of defiling what they love.

[Badnik Mechanic]

You know I do wonder, those of you who have been so vocal about how they're doing a poor job.

Do you actually know anything about writing for a game? Actually I'll make it easier, anything about writing for one genre like say a play, then trying to transform that into another? Like say a radio drama or a TV show? You have to completely change your entire approach for it, you also have several constrains on you per genre and in some cases your work should be altered or manipulated out of your control.

The issue I have here is that I think some people here are highly misguided as to how much power a writer has on the game.

The way some of you are talking, I have a feeling you think that the writers do this.

Writer: So I just wrote the story! Go make it for me my minions!

That's... not how it works, not at all. 

The basic story/plot would have already been decided, the game writer would have had to have written around that. So already there's a limitation as to what the writer can do.

Secondly, there was a criticism early on in the thread about how 'the jokes go on for too long'

Urm... Can I just ask a really REALLY stupid question which I know supporters of the hate mob will be itching to point out? 

How is that the fault of the writer?

Let me explain this. 

Say I write a stand up comedy routine, I then go and perform it, my performance is good, I'm fully of energy and my timing is decent, however most of my jokes are deemed unfunny, or drags on too long. Then that's my fault, I'm the master of the performance there, I've created the jokes and performed them, I'm in control.

However, say I write a script for a TV/Film/Game. I submit that. That then goes through a writers team or an editor and in the case of games an animation department. 

If I've written a joke deemed not funny, or that goes on for too long, or that doesn't work, or that clearly isn't in character...

Why did the editor not remove it or cut the line short? Even something as simple as how the scene is shot can impact it's delivery.

We've all seen films which have 'directors cut' on them? Which have several extra or extended scenes? Well... surely before the script goes to animation it should be edited? These inconsistencies with the characters should be picked out right? These jokes which drag on should be cut down? 

Ah but therein rests the problem, that isn't the job of the writer, that's another guys role.

With a game like Sonic, which is created in Japan, we have another issue, has the animation already been done before the script? If so, then the writer has to fill that animation with something, or else we have the odd position where scenes are randomly cut down between versions of the game which I don't believe has happened in a Sonic game before other than the odd line translation change. 

That's not the fault of the writers, if they have to fill that content, they have to fill it, and most likely I don't believe that the writer on a game has the ability to command as much as some people think they do, not by a long shot.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

In short, blame SEGA/Sonic Team, not Pontaff.