Pontaff Retrospective: What's Up with all the Hate?

[Wraith]

5 minutes ago, DBZHedgy said:

Long term or not, they've been very capable of working together without any sort of trivialization over having to work with him before. They're literally acting like it's revolting to work with him and they've already done it so many times before. 

Don't really think it's a minor plot hole either since it's happened in at least half of the main series titles. Seems like a well established thing that they've got going on there.

It IS a minor plot hole in a series that doesn't care much for continuity. This is Sonic. It's almost episodic in how it's handled things. It's not going to put the larger lore of the series before a potentially interesting concept. It's never worked that way.

They also seem particularly more pissed off about it this time because these are different writers. They try to give characters more emotional range beyond what they had before. It's not like they flat out say "We've never had to do this before" or anything like that.

[FriendBot]

1 minute ago, Mikyeong said:

A reboot would be a whole rewrite of the chacters backstories, personaties, relationships and everything about their world. I do not think the series is ready for that.

Mary mind you that people almost lost their shit when they thought that the Sonic Boom designs and universe was going to be the reboot?

Yeah, I guess those were all soft-reboots and I wholeheartedly agree that the main series isn't ready for that.

And believe, the reason why I feel people are gonna be super salty about an actual reboot on the main series is because of what people assumed what Boom was at first! I was there.

[Kuzu]

3 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Just what a story needs: no conflict.

Ya know, being patronizing isn't a good way to get a point across :\

 

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

4 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Just what a story needs: no conflict.

Hey, to be honest though, a story isn't really required to have a conflict. I mean conflicts make for an intresting story but it's certiantly not required. 

Just now, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Ya know, being patronizing isn't a good way to get a point across :\

 

He wasn't though.

[Badnik Mechanic]

8 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

Why is it that when P&G are praised it's okay for them to get all of the credit, but when they're criticized we have to start trying to figure out how to divvy up responsibility to downplay whatever perceivable harm they've done?

I know that sometimes I have to write post on here as if I'm about to give legal council but this is getting ridiculous if now when previously we were talking in general terms about why we liked something we have to completely analyse why we liked it. Although sometimes people do just that so why is this even being brought up? The last time I went into major detail as to why something did or didn't work on the forums over one specific thing, Sonic 06 topics got banned.

I'm trying to explain here why it's not right to simply say "It's all their fault", that requires me to be specific, and in this case the editorial team do share some responsibility. 

[Kuzu]

12 minutes ago, Detective Hogfather said:

Urm I don't think I am, I'm saying that the editor team share a lot of responsibility here too. 

These writers at one point were getting praise, now they're getting criticisms, and one criticism is that sometimes the characters are acting out of character or that jokes are dragging on for too long. 

Well... why is there nobody in editorial cutting down these jokes? Why is nobody removing the stuff which is considered out of character? 

I'm not saying that the writers should get off Scott free, but currently the entire "It's all THEIR fault" is completely misguided and wrong. From my own professional experience on writing stuff, the editorial team should be picking most of this stuff up, yet given the outbursts here, that isn't happening. Well... when is someone from Sonic Team/Sega going to tell the writers that this isn't right? Or the editor team cut that extra 4 seconds of joke which doesn't work?

The writers aren't responsible for editing together the dialogue and the animation, yet that's a vital part in how effectively the script is communicated across. There's a team somewhere animating the script, then that I'm assuming goes to someone who adds the sound effects, this by all rights should go to someone who edits the whole thing together? So why are they not picking this up or removing the content which doesn't work? They have just as much responsibility as the people putting pen to paper.

Look, I have no doubt there's some truth to everything you're saying, but none of it really absolves Pontac and Graff from any responsibility does it? So its like...what are you saying, you want people to direct their complaints elsewhere?

Just now, Mikyeong said:

 

He wasn't though.

I'm not speaking to you, thank you :V

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

No one is saying that P&G are completely innocent. They do have some blame if the fans do not like their writing. I think what Hog is saying is that they aren't the only ones to blame. 

[Diogenes]

2 minutes ago, DBZHedgy said:

Because there absolutely can't be conflict with who they're teaming up against.

The Deadly Six?

What is even the point of pairing up usually-opposing characters if you're not going to explore any conflict between them. You want to explore conflict with the D6, you don't need Eggman involved for that.

I'm still wondering about the overlap between people who think this is a problem and people who think Eggman isn't treated seriously enough as a villain. Because having Sonic and Eggman being friendly teammates does not give off the image of Eggman as a dangerous, intimidating villain. It makes him seem like Boom Eggman.

[DBZHedgy]

1 minute ago, Wraith said:

It IS a minor plot hole in a series that doesn't care much for continuity. This is Sonic. It's almost episodic in how it's handled things. It's not going to put the larger lore of the series before a potentially interesting concept. It's never worked that way.

They also seem particularly more pissed off about it this time because these are different writers. They try to give characters more emotional range beyond what they had before. It's not like they flat out say "We've never had to do this before" or anything like that.

I disagree. Like a lot.

People will point out inconsistencies no matter how trivial. Pontac and Graff are no exception. It's just piling up more because they've written more plots than any other writer in the series thus far. And the fact that they are having emotional range isn't the problem. The problem is that it's out of character. 

[Nepenthe]

4 minutes ago, Mikyeong said:

He wasn't though.

That was a patronizing response.

4 minutes ago, Detective Hogfather said:

I know that sometimes I have to write post on here as if I'm about to give legal council but this is getting ridiculous if now when previously we were talking in general terms about why we liked something we have to completely analyse why we liked it.

I'm trying to explain here why it's not right to simply say "It's all their fault", that requires me to be specific, and in this case the editorial team do share some responsibility. 

I'm not asking for people to completely dissect why they like something (although I think the burden of proof for negative and positive opinions should be equivalent in roughly similar discussions), and indeed saying "the editors share blame" doesn't come across as a great big analyzation. I'm saying the nature of the defense comes off as way too unnecessarily apologetic.

[Kuzu]

2 minutes ago, Mikyeong said:

No one is saying that P&G are completely innocent. They do have some blame if the fans do not like their writing. I think what Hog is saying is that they aren't the only ones to blame. 

So what, do we have to go down a list of people to blame?

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

Just now, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

So what, do we have to go down a list of people to blame?

Everyone has equal blame. The writers don't just walk in and say HEEYYYYYYYYYY. They already have editors and producers who have a story in mind, the writers just fill in the blanks. So if the producers have a terrible story in mind and the writers fail at filling in those blanks.... then they both have equal blame. 

[DBZHedgy]

2 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

What is even the point of pairing up usually-opposing characters if you're not going to explore any conflict between them. You want to explore conflict with the D6, you don't need Eggman involved for that.

I'm still wondering about the overlap between people who think this is a problem and people who think Eggman isn't treated seriously enough as a villain. Because having Sonic and Eggman being friendly teammates does not give off the image of Eggman as a dangerous, intimidating villain. It makes him seem like Boom Eggman.

Who's to say that there can't be a plot where they team up with begrudging sentiments at first and then learn that they're more compatible than they thought? There was room for that in this conflict based plot, but they didn't even go down that route at all. It felt like they tried though with that one scene where Eggman tried to sacrifice himself, but it becomes moot because there had to be a big bad Eggman showdown near the end. 

[Wraith]

2 minutes ago, DBZHedgy said:

I disagree. Like a lot.

People will point out inconsistencies no matter how trivial. Pontac and Graff are no exception. It's just piling up more because they've written more plots than any other writer in the series thus far. And the fact that they are having emotional range isn't the problem. The problem is that it's out of character. 

They're "pilling up" even though you could only really name 2 since they started. 

I just don't get how this "inconsistency" even matters all that much in the grand scheme. They never really say "We never had to do this before". They just react differently because instead of taking care of an immediate life or death situation with a little help from him, they have to take a stroll across a planet basically being his personal body guards. There are far more glaring inconsistencies under past writers that people have been willing to shrug off.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

4 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

That was a patronizing response.

*le shrug* I disagree but then I can get protective. anyway.....

The story doesn't need conflict in order to be a story. Conflict is interesting yes, but I have read many stories where there has been little to no conflict. 

[StaticMania]

Just now, DBZHedgy said:

I disagree. Like a lot.

People will point out inconsistencies no matter how trivial. Pontac and Graff are no exception. It's just piling up more because they've written more plots than any other writer in the series thus far. And the fact that they are having emotional range isn't the problem. The problem is that it's out of character. 

How many writers has this series had? For these "new" guys to have written more than anyone else...4 games is that much really, eh?

[DBZHedgy]

Just now, Wraith said:

They're "pilling up" even though you could only really name 2 since they started. 

I just don't get how this "inconsistency" even matters all that much in the grand scheme. They never really say "We never had to do this before". They just react differently because instead of taking care of an immediate life or death situation with a little help from him, they have to take a stroll across a planet basically being his personal body guards.

What, honestly is the difference though? Eggman was ready to straight up kill Amy in Sa2, and even there they cooperated more rationally than this. And it isn't even the prolongation of the matter that causes them to act like this, they did it from the get-go.

2 minutes ago, Wraith said:

There are far more glaring inconsistencies under past writers that people have been willing to shrug off.

Like?

[Diogenes]

3 minutes ago, DBZHedgy said:

Who's to say that there can't be a plot where they team up with begrudging sentiments at first and then learn that they're more compatible than they thought? There was room for that in this conflict based plot, but they didn't even go down that route at all. It felt like they tried though with that one scene where Eggman tried to sacrifice himself, but it becomes moot because there had to be a big bad Eggman showdown near the end. 

If you're fine with "begrudging sentiments at first" I don't even know what problem you have with this in Lost World.

[DBZHedgy]

1 minute ago, StaticMania said:

How many writers has this series had? For these "new" guys to have written more than anyone else...4 games is that much really, eh?

Yeah...

it is. :T

And the fact that they're joke-oriented style of humor is prominent in every game they're written makes it all the more obvious tbh.

2 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

If you're fine with "begrudging sentiments at first" I don't even know what problem you have with this in Lost World.

It's because it's taken a lot farther than that.

[Nepenthe]

Just now, Wraith said:

They're "pilling up" even though you could only really name 2 since they started. 

I just don't get how this "inconsistency" even matters all that much in the grand scheme. They never really say "We never had to do this before". They just react differently because instead of taking care of an immediate life or death situation with a little help from him, they have to take a stroll across a planet basically being his personal body guards. There are far more glaring inconsistencies under past writers that people have been willing to shrug off.

The problem with this team-up being toted as some huge thing is that it is inherently the reason why Tails gets so angry at Sonic in the first place, which is one of the biggest points of contention people have with the plot. There being precedent of the these characters working together for mutual benefit is partly the reason why Tails flipping out makes little sense.

And other more glaring inconsistencies get shrugged off because everyone is aware that they are indeed more glaring and exist within worse games; there's nothing to really debate about. The moon magically being intact and Blaze being a literal Schrodinger's Cat are dumb issues, yes. However, Lost World is more divisive because people are noting problems with the narrative while at the same time others insist that the writing is literally the best the series has ever seen.

Just now, Mikyeong said:

*le shrug* I disagree but then I can get protective. anyway.....

The story doesn't need conflict in order to be a story. Conflict is interesting yes, but I have read many stories where there has been little to no conflict. 

You being protective of Diogenes has not been lost on anyone here.

Also, conflict-less Sonic plots are literally the most boring shit imaginable. It's an action-adventure franchise of video games, and video games primarily drive their mechanics through conflict. Despite it being technically possible for a story to have little conflict, what is the benefit in advocating for this within the context of Sonic's narrative? 

[Diogenes]

6 minutes ago, DBZHedgy said:

It's because it's taken a lot farther than that.

Where? When? There's two cutscenes with them between Zeti rebellion and teamup, they throw a few barbs at each other, and then once they're teamed up the conflict between them is pretty minimal until Eggman goes into final boss mode.

[Wraith]

2 minutes ago, DBZHedgy said:

What, honestly is the difference though? Eggman was ready to straight up kill Amy in Sa2, and even there they cooperated more rationally than this. And it isn't even the prolongation of the matter that causes them to act like this, they did it from the get-go.

They also had far less time to bicker in that scenario. 

 

2 minutes ago, DBZHedgy said:

Like?

Oh SHIT the moon is gone...oh wait we need it for the next game just put it back. Roll with it.

Gerald reprogrammed the arc to crash after the government arrested him and killed Maria...Except he was in jail since then so when the fuck would he have time to do that? I dunno but they need a reason to work together so roll with it

Hey you know Blaze? better throw everything you know about her aside because she's in this game with a new backstory! Roll with it.

We want Sonic to explore a world that's closer to ours this time. Let's blatantly ignore almost every location and character we made up so far so we can do just that. Roll with it.

It's not really out there for the series to just do things because they sound interesting even if it contradicts something it did before. I don't think this is an issue or anything either.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

3 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

You being protective of Diogenes has not been lost on anyone here.

Also, conflict-less Sonic plots are literally the most boring shit imaginable. It's an action-adventure franchise of video games, and video games primarily drive their mechanics through conflict. Despite it being technically possible for a story to have little conflict, what is the benefit in advocating for this within the context of Sonic's narrative

I agree. I was talking more so in general. Conflict-less plots in Sonic wouldn't make great games unless you going for "put Sonic in Teletubbies". But yeah, I meant in general. I'm sorry if I didn't go clearer

[DBZHedgy]

3 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Oh SHIT the moon is gone...oh wait we need it for the next game just put it back. Roll with it.

Gerald reprogrammed the arc to crash after the government arrested him and killed Maria...Except he was in jail since then so when the fuck would he have time to do that? I dunno but they need a reason to work together so roll with it

Hey you know Blaze? better throw everything you know about her aside because she's in this game with a new backstory! Roll with it.

We want Sonic to explore a world that's closer to ours this time. Let's blatantly ignore almost every location and character we made up so far so we can do just that. Roll with it.

It's not really out there for the series to just do things because they sound interesting even if it contradicts something it did before. I don't think this is an issue or anything either.

But you're point was that no one complained about those, or that they complained about it a whole less than this.

People complain about those all the time. Especially the Blaze one because it's 06 lol. I can tell you that that complaint is waaaaaaaaaay more prominent than any complaints towards pontac and graff

4 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Where? When? There's two cutscenes with them between Zeti rebellion and teamup, they throw a few barbs at each other, and then once they're teamed up the conflict between them is pretty minimal until Eggman goes into final boss mode.

Where two cutscenes really necessary for that though. Should've been one or two snips in the wake of the teamups and then they should've been done with it. It really didn't take all of that bickering.

[Dr. Detective]

Saying that the editors (if the job of being an editor for the series and it's writing even exists) should be held accountable for the misfortune that's been plaguing the writing as of late is something that should be taken into account, yes. Most people do often forget that the ones putting their names out there at the forefront, while accepting responsibility for what's being put out, aren't the only ones who should be held accountable for the mistakes that happen. There's reasons why it feels a lot more comfortable to collectively call out SEGA/Sonic Team rather then individual people.

That said, I don't feel like my focus is squarely on who writes it, more so the fact that it needs to get fixed. I've also mulled around the idea that a good editor could very well be what they need to bring themselves into a bit more focus as you do see nuggets of potential sprinkled throughout these titles here and there (which I feel only adds to the frustration concerning how hard they drop the ball).

I also don't feel like recognizing all that is going to necessarily negate anything said about the problems with the stories here. If the jokes going on too long isn't solely their fault then fine but that's got nothing to do with the fact that I still hate how the jokes go on too long. What that changes is just how well you play the pronoun game. Of course, I don't know every single individual person within the company and to be perfectly honest, as harsh as it sounds, it's not really the consumer's place to give a shit about any of that. 

Of course, It's never okay to be a straight up asshole and harass anyone. Don't do that. That's a very stupid and petty thing to do. But as far as criticizing the work, nothing's going to change about my position on that. I do like being reminded that I've got more people I can criticize though. Too bad these two are the only names I know when it comes to the current writing "staff" as it were.