Pontaff Retrospective: What's Up with all the Hate?

[Badnik Mechanic]

Just now, Mikyeong said:

In short, blame SEGA/Sonic Team, not Pontaff. 

I don't even think it's as simple as that.

We're dealing with a franchise which is released all over the world, but when it comes to communication, few things are universal, what makes people in America laugh doesn't always work in Europe, and in Asia? Who knows. 

So you have to try and find a line which all nations can relate to as best they can and then write for that. But that is extremely difficult, the basic plot was decided by a team of Japanese game developers and the jokes/dialogue had to be aimed to appeal to fans in the US, Europe, parts of Asia and Australia.

[Nepenthe]

Really? We're saying that Pontaff have absolutely no culpability in any of the problems with the writing whatsoever because the editor didn't catch it? If that's the case that script writers literally have no effect on the outcome of the game then what the hell was the point in even hiring them? Hell, I could have gotten the job if that's the case. I'd like to get paid to effectively do nothing.

[Wraith]

You can blame both of them if you just plain don't like the writing. I mean there are too many examples of the  writing process in games that have gone well for us to really be making excuses for them. The process should go smoothly on a professional product.

[DBZHedgy]

7 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Tails acting up is the exception and even then he still had some traits from Colors carry over. The other characters pretty much act the same in every game they've written for.

There's also Eggman and Sonic acting like they've never teamed up before

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

1 minute ago, Detective Hogfather said:

I don't even think it's as simple as that.

We're dealing with a franchise which is released all over the world, but when it comes to communication, few things are universal, what makes people in America laugh doesn't always work in Europe, and in Asia? Who knows. 

So you have to try and find a line which all nations can relate to as best they can and then write for that. But that is extremely difficult, the basic plot was decided by a team of Japanese game developers and the jokes/dialogue had to be aimed to appeal to fans in the US, Europe, parts of Asia and Australia.

Alrighty, I see where you are coming from. Thanks for clarifying. 

[Chris Knopps]

1 minute ago, Nepenthe said:

Really? We're saying that Pontaff have absolutely no culpability in any of the problems with the writing whatsoever because the editor didn't catch it? If that's the case that script writers literally have no effect on the outcome of the game then what the hell was the point in even hiring them? Hell, I could have gotten the job if that's the case. I'd like to get paid to effectively do nothing.

I admit, Hog is kinda apologizing for the writers here...

While yes I agree it's everyone's fault, the company and the writers themselves, I don't think making up excuses on their behalf is doing anyone any good. It's part of being a supposed PROFESSIONAL in your career to be able to do such things more naturally than we've seen with these writers and Sonic.

[RaceProUK]

Just now, DBZHedgy said:

There's also Eggman and Sonic acting like they've never teamed up before

How many times have they actually genuinely teamed up though? The only time that springs to mind is Sonic Adventure 2, but that wasn't really Sonic and Eggman working together; everyone chipped in, and the decisive battle was Sonic and Shadow working together.

[Badnik Mechanic]

5 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

Really? We're saying that Pontaff have absolutely no culpability in any of the problems with the writing whatsoever because the editor didn't catch it? If that's the case that script writers literally have no effect on the outcome of the game then what the hell was the point in even hiring them? Hell, I could have gotten the job if that's the case. I'd like to get paid to effectively do nothing.

This is a weak generalisation and you know it. 

The editor team on any project is there for a reason, they're there to spot stuff like this and edit a script, be it for a play, TV, Radio, film whatever, that's their job, they have to cut down content which drags or material which clearly breaks character or the tone of the scene in question. 

There's a reason why at award ceremonies like the Oscars there is a category for editing, it's a vital and important role to have on any creative project. 

Hell the last play I wrote had to go through several edits out of my control before it went on stage, I didn't agree with all of them, but some I did agree with and it did improve the pacing of some of the scenes. 

If we have a writer who is writing jokes which drag on for too long, why is the editor assuming there is one, not picking this up and cutting it down? 

Quote

I admit, Hog is kinda apologizing for the writers here...

 

No he's not, in fact he's said repeatedly in this topic that the writers are not perfect. He's pointing out that there should be an editor or some kind of editorial team for a game which is using writers to pick this stuff up. 

If this is such a problem, if the volume of jokes which don't work/drag on, or the characterisation is so off, why is there not an editorial team going through the scripts? And if there is, are we not blaming the wrong people here or at least aiming some of our bows and arrows at another team?

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

Just now, RaceProUK said:

How many times have they actually genuinely teamed up though? The only time that springs to mind is Sonic Adventure 2, but that wasn't really Sonic and Eggman working together; everyone chipped in, and the decisive battle was Sonic and Shadow working together.

Just Sonic Adventure 2 and Sonic 06

[Chris Knopps]

2 minutes ago, RaceProUK said:

How many times have they actually genuinely teamed up though? The only time that springs to mind is Sonic Adventure 2, but that wasn't really Sonic and Eggman working together; everyone chipped in, and the decisive battle was Sonic and Shadow working together.

Sonic Advance 3...

Sonic Adventure (in a way) and Sonic Adventure 2

Sonic Heroes (in a way) and Shadow the Hedgehog

Sonic 06 (in a way) and Sonic Lost World

I'm sure there have been other instances. Either teaming up outright or just slightly.

[DBZHedgy]

1 minute ago, RaceProUK said:

How many times have they actually genuinely teamed up though? The only time that springs to mind is Sonic Adventure 2, but that wasn't really Sonic and Eggman working together; everyone chipped in, and the decisive battle was Sonic and Shadow working together.

Sonic Adventure 2, Sonic Heroes, Shadow the Hedgehog, Sonic 06

way more times than necessary to establish that they can work together without bickering like idiots :/

[The Tenth Doctor]

1 minute ago, RaceProUK said:

How many times have they actually genuinely teamed up though? The only time that springs to mind is Sonic Adventure 2, but that wasn't really Sonic and Eggman working together; everyone chipped in, and the decisive battle was Sonic and Shadow working together.

Just jumping in.

Sonic Adventure (kind of)

Sonic Adventure 2

Sonic Heroes

Sonic Advance 3

Shadow the hedgehog

Sonic the Hedgehog

Sonic Rivals 2 (in a way of speaking)

[Nepenthe]

4 minutes ago, Detective Hogfather said:

This is a weak generalisation and you know it. 

The editor team on any project is there for a reason, they're there to spot stuff like this and edit a script, be it for a play, TV, Radio, film whatever, that's their job, they have to cut down content which drags or material which clearly breaks character or the tone of the scene in question. 

There's a reason why at award ceremonies like the Oscars there is a category for editing, it's a vital and important role to have on any creative project. 

Hell the last play I wrote had to go through several edits out of my control before it went on stage, I didn't agree with all of them, but some I did agree with and it did improve the pacing of some of the scenes. 

If we have a writer who is writing jokes which drag on for too long, why is the editor assuming there is one, not picking this up and cutting it down? 

It's not a generalization. You are effectively admitting that if people have problems with P&G's writing, then they are inherently bad writers. The editing team not doing their job doesn't absolve P&G of their duty which is to write entertaining material from the outset, no more than bad editing absolves the animators from doing their job of actually making readable motion within the cut scenes that have been roughly edited together already in the form of animatics. It's a collective failure on part of the entire story department of which P&G are involved. If you mean to argue that we should instead be directing our anger towards said department, then okay. Sure. But that still doesn't let P&G off the hook.

[Diogenes]

8 minutes ago, DBZHedgy said:

There's also Eggman and Sonic acting like they've never teamed up before

Let's just reboot the series already so we can have interesting character interactions instead of treating a hero-villain teamup as routine and harmless.

[Wraith]

15 minutes ago, DBZHedgy said:

There's also Eggman and Sonic acting like they've never teamed up before

They always team up when there's some immediate life or death circumstance. It's never been a long term thing before. 

Even putting that a side,, this is such an incredibly minor plot hole(if you could even call it that) in a series full of them that I'm surprised people like to pick at this one. Would you rather Sonic and Eggman just work together perfectly and never come into conflict about how to do things? That takes anything interesting that could come of the situation out.

[StaticMania]

 

Just now, RaceProUK said:

How many times have they actually genuinely teamed up though? The only time that springs to mind is Sonic Adventure 2, but that wasn't really Sonic and Eggman working together; everyone chipped in, and the decisive battle was Sonic and Shadow working together.

The amount of times they've genuinely worked together is a solid two times.

 

Sonic Adventure 2 and Sonic Advance 3. 

 

Eggman in literally any other game where he isn't the final boss isn't actually helping or doing anything. He's just "there" so it's not them working together, it's Sonic and co. doing the work while Eggman ain't done nothin'.

[Badnik Mechanic]

7 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

It's not a generalization. You are effectively admitting that if people have problems with P&G's writing, then they are inherently bad writers. The editing team not doing their job doesn't absolve P&G of their duty which is to write entertaining material from the outset, no more than bad editing absolves the animators from doing their job of actually making readable motion within the cut scenes that have been edited together already in the form of animatics. It's a collective failure on part of the entire story department of which P&G are involved. If you mean to argue that we should instead be directing our anger towards said department, then okay. Sure. But that still doesn't let P&G off the hook.

Urm I don't think I am, I'm saying that the editor team share a lot of responsibility here too. 

These writers at one point were getting praise, now they're getting criticisms, and one criticism is that sometimes the characters are acting out of character or that jokes are dragging on for too long. 

Well... why is there nobody in editorial cutting down these jokes? Why is nobody removing the stuff which is considered out of character? 

I'm not saying that the writers should get off Scott free, but currently the entire "It's all THEIR fault" is completely misguided and wrong. From my own professional experience on writing stuff, the editorial team should be picking most of this stuff up, yet given the outbursts here, that isn't happening. Well... when is someone from Sonic Team/Sega going to tell the writers that this isn't right? Or the editor team cut that extra 4 seconds of joke which doesn't work?

The writers aren't responsible for editing together the dialogue and the animation, yet that's a vital part in how effectively the script is communicated across. There's a team somewhere animating the script, then that I'm assuming goes to someone who adds the sound effects, this by all rights should go to someone who edits the whole thing together? So why are they not picking this up or removing the content which doesn't work? They have just as much responsibility as the people putting pen to paper.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

5 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Let's just reboot the series already so we can have interesting character interactions instead of treating a hero-villain teamup as routine and harmless.

It sounds easy yes but I don't think rebooting is the answer, especially with the main series.

[DBZHedgy]

7 minutes ago, Wraith said:

They always team up when there's some immediate life or death circumstance. It's never been a long term thing before. 

Even putting that a side,, this is such an incredibly minor plot hole(in a series full of them) that I'm surprised people like to pick at this one. Would you rather Sonic and Eggman just work together perfectly and never come into conflict about how to do things? That takes anything interesting that could come of the situation out.

Long term or not, they've been very capable of working together without any sort of trivialization over having to work with him before. They're literally acting like it's revolting to work with him and they've already done it so many times before. 

Don't really think it's a minor plot hole either since it's happened in at least half of the main series titles. Seems like a well established thing that they've got going on there.

[FriendBot]

I mean, the main series kinda already "rebooted" itself 2 times already. Well I guess, you could say 06 counts as a reboot. :/

Unless you're talking about a flat out Super Genesis Wave reboot, then I guess? I don't know, it just seems like fans will just be more salty about it then.

[Nepenthe]

Just now, Detective Hogfather said:

Urm I don't think I am, I'm saying that the editor team share a lot of responsibility here too. 

These writers at one point were getting praise, now they're getting criticisms, and one criticism is that sometimes the characters are acting out of character or that jokes are dragging on for too long. 

Well... why is there nobody in editorial cutting down these jokes? Why is nobody removing the stuff which is considered out of character? 

I'm not saying that the writers should get off Scott free, but currently the entire "It's all THEIR fault" is completely misguided and wrong. From my own professional experience on writing stuff, the editorial team should be picking most of this stuff up, yet given the outbursts here, that isn't happening. Well... when is someone from Sonic Team/Sega going to tell the writers that this isn't right? Or the editor team cut that extra 4 seconds of joke which doesn't work?

The writers aren't responsible for editing together the dialogue and the animation, yet that's a vital part in how effectively the script is communicated across. They have just as much responsibility as the people putting pen to paper.

If the dialogue is bad or inconsistent, it is partly the script writer's fault. Again, if you want us to start blaming the collective story department versus simply making a poster child out of one or two people, then just say that. Your original point came across as trying to completely absolve them of responsibility by putting everything on the editors, complete with patronization, which had the inadvertent implication of saying that talent doesn't matter because everything shitty should just be filtered out through the editors anyway.

And speaking of praise, since we're on this point of how the writing is a collective effort, where were the arguments saying people weren't giving the editors enough credit back then? Why is it that when P&G are praised it's okay for them to get all of the credit, but when they're criticized we have to start trying to figure out how to divvy up responsibility to downplay whatever perceivable harm they've done?

[Diogenes]

2 minutes ago, DBZHedgy said:

Long term or not, they've been very capable of working together without any sort of trivialization over having to work with him before. They're literally acting like it's revolting to work with him and they've already done it so many times before. 

Don't really think it's a minor plot hole either since it's happened in at least half of the main series titles. Seems like a well established thing that they've got going on there.

Just what a story needs: no conflict.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

1 minute ago, True Detective Soni said:

I mean, the main series kinda already "rebooted" itself 2 times already. Well I guess, you could say 06 counts as a reboot. :/

Unless you're talking about a flat out Super Genesis Wave reboot, then I guess? I don't know, it just seems like fans will just be more salty about it then.

A reboot would be a whole rewrite of the chacters backstories, personaties, relationships and everything about their world. I do not think the series is ready for that.

Mary mind you that people almost lost their shit when they thought that the Sonic Boom designs and universe was going to be the reboot?

[Nepenthe]

Hero and villain working together to take down an even larger villain means there's no conflict in the story?

Cheese on a cracker.

[DBZHedgy]

Just now, Diogenes said:

Just what a story needs: no conflict.

Because there absolutely can't be conflict with who they're teaming up against.

The Deadly Six?