Pontaff Retrospective: What's Up with all the Hate?

[Kuzu]

2 minutes ago, Mikyeong said:

Except, now Sonic Colors is looked at as a mediocre game. People thought it was brought back THEN because they wanted a more lighthearted story. It's not a popular opinion to enjoy P/G's writing. It was in the past but now it's in the minority.

Yea, that 8.5 on the User score really shows how much of a dip in quality its taken.

[Wraith]

8 minutes ago, Mikyeong said:

Except, now Sonic Colors is looked at as a mediocre game. People thought it was brought back THEN because they wanted a more lighthearted story. It's not a popular opinion to enjoy P/G's writing. It was in the past but now it's in the minority.

Sonic Colors isn't really looked upon negatively by most people. It's mostly the fanbase that changed their minds on it, but it's like it's getting any of the backlash the previous games do. 

I'd say it's about as much as a minority to enjoy Pontaff's writing as it is to hate it. Most people largely don't give a shit about Sonic plots regardless. They're inoffensive enough to not get actively made fun of by the wider gaming community and that's enough for Sega, it seems.

[Kuzu]

The only time people even give a shit about Sonic plots is when they're exceptionally bad like Sonic 06, and that really is the exception to the rule.

Really, only the fans give a shit.

[Shadowlax]

42 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Sonic Colors isn't really looked upon negatively by most people. It's mostly the fanbase that changed their minds on it, but it's like it's getting any of the backlash the previous games do. 

 

Eh nah, going back and saying sonic games is bad a meme now. I would say its less the fan base and more reviewers and such. " oh hey this old sonic game is actually bad, oh those crazy sonic fans" I have seen people say that about like sonic and knuckles and shit.

That isn't to say self reflection isn't healthy, i realize i don't really like sonic adventure, but it happens. 

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

1 hour ago, shdowhunt60 said:

That is literally Sonic and Tails the over whelming majority of the time in both Colors and ESPECIALLY Shattered Crystal. This isn't me being mad at something I don't like, this is legitimately bad writing. 

Are the opiniated implications of self-insert sues really all you have on your case to try and condemn Sonic Colors as "legitimately bad writing"? Pshaw.

[shdowhunt60]

7 minutes ago, Jovahexeon Joranvexeon said:

Are the opiniated implications of self-insert sues really all you have on your case to try and condemn Sonic Colors as "legitimately bad writing"? Pshaw.

Actually, no. I just said they're shit at writing Sonic and Tails. I didn't comment on Colors itself.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Funny...I actually like Color's writing out of all the Post-Unleashed games, even tho it needs work. Shocking, I know.

Okay, I know I'm a bit late to the party. But while some things have already been said, there are things I feel have gone unaddressed.

 

5 hours ago, DarkLight said:

I'm just going to get something off my chest. Something that has being nagging me for a while and I might as well bring it up since some here have alluded to it.

People still insist having Ian Flynn as a writer will fix everything currently wrong with the game's narratives? I'm sorry, I'm just confused. Like he'd get better treatment from Sega than P&G ever did? He already has to deal with mandates from them regarding the comic, something most people have expressed grievance with already, suppose he did ever get the job, what would happen? More or less Sega telling what to do and not do. What exactly changes here? 

Look, I think his writing is just okay, and get why he's well-liked by fans, that's fine with me. It's also fine to be dissatisfied with P&G's work (though treating them like utter shit is where I draw the line. I...just refuse to believe him being a fan automatically covers any flaws with his writing. Being a fan is certainly a plus, but it's not really a requirement, as hard as that might be for some people.

As much as I actually agree with you over Flynn writing for the games not being a good idea - and for the very reason of Sega limiting his freedom like they've done with P&G, as you pointed out - the bolded is a massive strawman towards all of those who support the idea of Flynn as the franchise writer. Even considering that fact (yes, I know there's a noticeable group of people who mention him being a fan being a strong point), Flynn being a fan of the franchise is so far down to the bottom of the list of his support for writing the games that it hardly means anything. If you get why he's well liked, that shouldn't have even been point to call out given the multitude of other, higher prioritized reasons an Ian Flynn fan will tell you why that want him for the games.

That's especially when you get into the fact that die-hard Flynn fans have criticized a lot of his flaws you say him being a fan covers, and you know this as much as everyone else does, if arcs like the House of Cards, the arc fatigues that were the Iron Dominion and Mecha Sally arcs, and most especially World's Unite have been any indicator. No one let Ian slide when they saw some pretty major hiccups that didn't sit well with them, and they still don't let him off after WU (even though that was one mandated by Sega and Capcom, wasn't it?).

5 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

What you also have to keep in mind is that, being a fan, you can also let personal or emotional preference for parts of the franchise take over your writing, leading to occasional moments things can border as fan fic inserts (while Ian keeps it subtle, I can't lie I NEVER see moments of this in his work). Having a writer who is apathetic to the franchise in particular but is at least interested in making a good story can lead to a more even and professional approach.

While Pontaff and Boom (which is comprised of writers who are or are not experienced with the franchise) have caused some polarising moments and have some blatant uneasy writing at times, they have added some interesting twists that I feel a writer who is a fan may be more unwilling to test in fear of defiling what they love.

I had written a rather massive response to this post, but for now I saved and deleted it because I'm not entirely sure I'm reading your post correctly.

You're not saying that Ian is unwilling to test interesting twists to avoid defiling what he loves, are you? Because I'm already prepared to prove that wrong depending on your answer.

And you say having a writer apathetic to the franchise, but interested in telling a good story can lead to an even and more professional approach. But this completely disregards the fact that an apathetic writer might not even provide that due to being--well, apathetic. But let's say for the sake of the argument that they do provide such a story - what if they write the characters completely different that the fans are alienated and even bicker among each other over the portrayal? Like the kind of thing that's happening right now in this very topic? Because one the other reasons Pontaff is polarizing is for the exact reasons for which you implied of a fan writer.

[Salamander]

Sidestepping the debate on whether P&G or the editing team are more at fault in recent Sonic efforts, my opinion is simply that we are probably going to get a more coherent product if the writers and developers not only speak the same language but work in the same office.  With Pontac and Graff and indeed any western writer the series might hire in the future (e.g. Ian Flynn), there is going to be a significant gulf between them and Sonic Team which will hinder their ability to discuss their work in any kind of depth or make specific contributions to its implementation.  They don't speak the same language, they don't live in the same country, their exchanges are going to be limited and often through a translator.  I would imagine that P&G's scripts actually have to be localised into Japanese before much of the work can be done, so it's hard to even say how good an assessment of quality Sonic Team can even make of their work.  And all of this is quite aside from the matter of what mandates or restrictions are being remoteliy placed upon P&G in the first place.  The writing really needs to be done by a Sonic Team insider with Sonic Team interaction, as far as I'm concerned; someone on an equal level of participation with the rest of the developers.

Of course, where this doesn't necessarily help us is on the matter of tone.  P&G are regardless not writing in a vacuum.  They weren't chosen arbitrarily.  I think it's pretty likely that an executive decision was made to pitch the Sonic games at a younger and more western audience, so western writers with a comedy background were selected and asked to write something on that level.  Even if Sonic Team ditch P&G, they might well simply grab someone whose work is on a similar level, unless they've realised that that approach (or more simply P&G's work) isn't working.

...With regards to the point that this doesn't strictly speaking deconfirm P&G as writing for the anniversary game, I think it's a positive sign.  Ken Pontac's profile only mentioned one upcoming Sonic game he was working on; likewise, Aaron's debunking of the idea that P&G are working on the anniversary game would be quite redundant if they are regardless working on the anniversary game.  It's not conclusive, I agree, but I wonder: If Boom and Legacy Sonic are meant to be different, why would they have the same writers?  Perhaps P&G have been migrated over to Boom on a permanent basis and a new approach (or even a classic writer) is being tried with the anniversary game.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

12 hours ago, shdowhunt60 said:

Actually, no. I just said they're shit at writing Sonic and Tails. I didn't comment on Colors itself.

Well,  in that case,  I ought to let you know that both cases are equally flimsy going off off the "they're self-inserts of these two writers I openly dislike", angle you've got going there, @shdowhunt60 .

[RaceProUK]

Personally, I think way too many people put way too much importance on story in a Sonic game. I can only speak for myself, but when I play a Sonic game, I'm not playing it for the story; I'm playing it because I want to run fast, collect rings, and smash a fat man's robots. If I can get a few chuckles from the story, then great; if not, who cares? I don't.

As far as I'm concerned, the three priorities are, in order:

1. Gameplay
2. Music
3. Story

 

And if I'm desperate for a game with a good story, I'll fire up Metal Gear Solid, Mass Effect, or GTAV.

[Shadowlax]

19 minutes ago, RaceProUK said:

Personally, I think way too many people put way too much importance on story in a Sonic game. I can only speak for myself, but when I play a Sonic game, I'm not playing it for the story; I'm playing it because I want to run fast, collect rings, and smash a fat man's robots. If I can get a few chuckles from the story, then great; if not, who cares? I don't.

As far as I'm concerned, the three priorities are, in order:

1. Gameplay
2. Music
3. Story

 

And if I'm desperate for a game with a good story, I'll fire up Metal Gear Solid, Mass Effect, or GTAV.

 

I care quite a bit because the story effects the theming of the video game, and elements I enjoy. I like that people put emphisis on sonic as a story. Because Sonic to me, is about theming, its an experience when you play, its about how it makes you feel in that moment. And the toning down of stories, and getting rid of a lot of elements in sonic games as of late has disappointing me to be quite honest. Because Now sonic is just video game character in video game. and that's mario. If I wanted to play mario... I would play mario. Not slightly fast blue knock off mario. 

While generations story wasn't the best, the context and characters allowed for it to be somewhat unique and shape what was going on in that moment. I can't say the same for colors and lost world, the latter falling way to far into " slightly fast blue knock off mario " category in terms of everything in that video game. Story for sonic and its characters for a hot minute were a means of separations from bunches of other platforms surviving past the 2d era. Not to say all of them were good, i'll be the first one to call out some plot holes. But it was at least interesting and something, now the experiences are rather nothing. Uninteresting with nothing stories to boot, nothing happening at all. 

Also you are talking about being desperate for a good story, its not about Good per say, its about interesting. Two of my favorite game series in the world are metal gear solid and kingdom hearts, both notorious for having insane plotlines with bunches of characters and nuts ass crazy shit. But I like it because its interesting, I like it because they are trying to do something instead of nothing, I like because they are playful. I like it because they are actually proud of themselves faults and all, instead of going back and turning all narrative into analytic poking fun at itself. I like it because its daring enough to actuaally have an weird narrative. I'm glad nomura convinced disney to go with his nuts shit. 

Sonic stories haven't been interesting in a long while. They have been kind of nothing, so have the last few games. 

[SBR2]

12 hours ago, Wraith said:

I don't get why the fact that Pontaff aren't necessarily fans of the series always comes under fire. There are plenty of cases where a person that had never even seen anything from a franchise before they got a job working on it. This is a normal thing.

Exactly. For example Beast Wars, one of the best Transformers series, was made by two guys who had zero idea about Transformers and Ian Flynn barely knew anything about Mega man and learned as he went. Nobody ever gives those any shit.

Anyway I'm bummed that Pontaff aren't writing this game. Bye bye characters with personality and welcome back bland dialogue about friendship and the super power of teamwork I guess.

[Idon'tcare]

13 hours ago, shdowhunt60 said:

Given the cluster fuck of sheer out of character moments, character bashing, meme pimping and insane focus on romance that Flynn flooded the comic with for eight years straight I personally don't want him anywhere near the games or comics anymore.

Yes I'm all #noflynn4sonic on this matter. 

[goku262002]

1 hour ago, Idon'tcare said:

Given the cluster fuck of sheer out of character moments, character bashing, meme pimping and insane focus on romance that Flynn flooded the comic with for eight years straight I personally don't want him anywhere near the games or comics anymore.

Yes I'm all #noflynn4sonic on this matter. 

Wat? Think you're confusing this with Penders bro.

Whatever dude, blind hate is blind.

[Kuzu]

1 hour ago, Idon'tcare said:

Given the cluster fuck of sheer out of character moments, character bashing, meme pimping and insane focus on romance that Flynn flooded the comic with for eight years straight I personally don't want him anywhere near the games or comics anymore.

Yes I'm all #noflynn4sonic on this matter. 

That's really a strawman don't you think :\

[Vertekins]

1 hour ago, Idon'tcare said:

Given the cluster fuck of sheer out of character moments, character bashing, meme pimping and insane focus on romance that Flynn flooded the comic with for eight years straight I personally don't want him anywhere near the games or comics anymore.

Yes I'm all #noflynn4sonic on this matter. 

Can't help but agree. About the games at least.

IMO, there’s as many glaring drawbacks to Flynn’s writing ability as there is good aspects. That’s what makes him so extremely average. And I don’t see why mere mediocrity should be acceptable out of a Sonic writer simply because I expect better than that and the games and the characters themselves deserve better than that. Why should anyone settle for mediocrity when they can have better? Like how Galaxy chocolate's advertising tagline goes; Why have cotton when you can have silk? There are far, far better writers out there that SEGA/Sonic Team could put their attentions on.

I can come out with quite the number of legitimate criticisms about Flynn as a writer such as the way he plays favorites with certain characters and is biased against others. A truly great writer never lets their personal biases regarding characters factor into their writing as far as Im concerned. That’s something I’ve seen and expect to see out of amateur fanfic writers, not professional writers and has been a prominent factor that blights Flynn’s writing and the characters themselves.

Yes, you’re entitled to love and hate whatever characters you want but for fucks sake that doesn’t give legitimacy to making creator’s pets (Sally) or turning a character into the chew toy (Drago) in order to exemplify your own feelings towards them. Flynn is inarguably very guilty of this. 

Another problem Flynn has had is that he derailed characters in order to enhance the weight of some plots and in order to shill his OTP (Sonally) as well as using extremely asinine plot developments in order to re-characterize characters or get them in a certain role/Out of the way. 

Good examples of this were the entirety of the “House of Cards” storyline, Rouge’s completely OoC behavior in “Treasure Team Tango”, Fiona Fox effectively flipping the bird at Sonic in order to pair with Scourge and the downright offensive insinuation that people with mental injuries are childish, immature loonys (Charmy Bee), everything about King Shadow in M30YL and one of my biggest sources of consternation pre-reboot - Sonic being morphed into something he isn’t, having his selfish side undermined and his refusal to be constrained ignored all for the sake of the terrible, godawful pairing that is Sonally.

Another factor I take into account personally is that writing for a comic and writing for a videogame are two very different things. I have being given absolutely    no indication that Flynn is capable of adapting to videogame writing. The only prior videogame work Pontac and Graff did was Madworld which, to my knowledge, was a pretty explicit game that wasn’t story heavy, suiting writers who had worked on explicit material beforehand i.e HTF. Neither of those guys have any real “touch” for writing Sonic IMO. I feel the same about Flynn at the end of the day and what only enhances my belief that he isn’t the man to turn to to write a Sonic game is that he has no prior experience of writing in the medium.

Also, what makes Flynn fans think that if Pontac and Graff were fired and Flynn took on the role that he wouldn’t be constrained by the level of control SEGA seemingly have over writers and their apparent fixation with inhibiting simplicity these days? I doubt the rules would suddenly change if he was hired and a writer is only as free as the bosses will allow them to be.

Sonic game story and characterization won’t take a sudden upturn in quality just because Flynn was hired. Yeah, the games writing would actually feel more in-line with what came before P&G most likely, be more in-line with a more ideal direction and tone. But I doubt the characterization would take a momentous upturn in quality simply because Flynn doesn't have a great grasp of the characters to start with.

That’s what I believe personally.

Quote

That's really a strawman don't you think :\

^ Over the course of a single issue BTW

Nope. I'd say Idon'tcare is dead-on.

 

 

[Kuzu]

The demand for Ian Flynn to write for the video games is quite a number of factors actually.For starters, and for better or worse, he actually is a fan of the series which means its a lot easier for him to communicate with his fanbase and empathize on certain things that just get overlooked. His writing is overall well-received, especially in comparison to the reception of Pontac and Graff in certain cases. And lastly, people just straight up feel he gets the characters a lot more than most of the other current writers that still work on the series.

There's also no reason why he can't simply...ya know, adapt his writing to fit a video game format? Comic Book writers don't just work on comic books, they do movies, tv shows, and yes, even video games and they've all styled their writing to that format. 

I'm not saying he doesn't have his flaws as a writer, because he does, but everyone does. There's no such thing as a perfect writer with perfect writing skills, that's an impossible ideal. I would want him to write just for a change of pace and to see what he can do in the different medium. I really doubt it'd be any worse than what the series has been throwing out for literally 15 years.

[SBR2]

Actually on that note Flynn just put this on Twitter.

[Vertekins]

16 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

The demand for Ian Flynn to write for the video games is quite a number of factors actually.For starters, and for better or worse, he actually is a fan of the series which means its a lot easier for him to communicate with his fanbase and empathize on certain things that just get overlooked.

"Being a big fan" is nowhere near as important a merit as "Being a great writer" is when it comes to the responsibility. And I don't believe that Flynn is the latter.

Quote

His writing is overall well-received, especially in comparison to the reception of Pontac and Graff in certain cases. And lastly, people just straight up feel he gets the characters a lot more than most of the other current writers that still work on the series.

Won't deny he tends to be leagues better than P&G and has a notably greater grasp of the series' mythos, continuity and characters. But that isn't really inherently superior to other professional writers who'd put the effort in to learn the series' mythos and characters as part of their preperation to write this series. Hence why I fail to see why Flynn is any more desirable in that regard in light of him being so incredibly mediocre.

Quote

There's also no reason why he can't simply...ya know, adapt his writing to fit a video game format? Comic Book writers don't just work on comic books, they do movies, tv shows, and yes, even video games and they've all styled their writing to that format. 

I'm speaking from the pretense that I haven't seen him do this. So I have no reason to believe that he could do so either badly or smoothly. I'm not prepared to see that chance when again there's professional writers who have already proven themselves in this area.

Quote

I'm not saying he doesn't have his flaws as a writer, because he does, but everyone does. There's no such thing as a perfect writer with perfect writing skills, that's an impossible ideal.

I don't expect perfection. I expect professionalism. Hooky 'character development' for the sake of an OTP, OoC behavior out of characters and questionable intepretations of who they are under the skin (Rouge), obnoxious meme-citing, fixation on romantic plot tumors that add nothing of value to either the characters or the work in general, creator's petism and morphing characters into chew toys is not professional.

Quote

I would want him to write just for a change of pace and to see what he can do in the different medium. I really doubt it'd be any worse than what the series has been throwing out for literally 15 years.

Don't get me wrong, I am intrigued by what Flynn would do when given a Sonic game to write. I just have large reservations about it outside of that.

[Kuzu]

4 minutes ago, Vertekins said:

"Being a big fan" is nowhere near as important a merit as "Being a great writer" is when it comes to the responsibility. And I don't believe that Flynn is the latter.

I did say for better or worse lol.

Won't deny he tends to be leagues better than P&G and has a notably greater grasp of the series' mythos, continuity and characters. But that isn't really inherently superior to other professional writers who'd put the effort in to learn the series' mythos and characters as part of their preperation to write this series. Hence why I fail to see why Flynn is any more desirable in that regard in light of him being so incredibly mediocre.

Fair enough

I'm speaking from the pretense that I haven't seen him do this. So I have no reason to believe that he could do so either badly or smoothly. I'm not prepared to see that chance when again there's professional writers who have already proven themselves in this area.

Why do you feel he's not a professional writer though, he's been writing comics for like what...10 years now?

I don't expect perfection. I expect professionalism.

Once again, what about Flynn is so overtly unprofessional? I don't really see him acting in anyway that would call for such reservations. I've seen him post on bumbleking quite a few times, he treats all questions equally, takes all criticisms to heart, and I don't think I've seen him lash out against overt haters.

So its like...where is this unprofessional attitude about him coming from?

Replies in bold because I'm not quote dissecting.

[Metal the Mario]

10 minutes ago, SBR2 said:

Actually on that note Flynn just put this on Twitter.

With the way the picture was cut off in the tweet (just above "Senpai Noticed"), it appeared a lot more cryptic and I actually got kind of excited for a second. But viewing the whole picture makes it a lot more clear that he was probably just poking fun at the fact that the Sonic Twitter followed him.

(I still would personally be hyped if he actually did get the position, though...)

[SBR2]

17 minutes ago, Metal Mario said:

With the way the picture was cut off in the tweet (just above "Senpai Noticed"), it appeared a lot more cryptic and I actually got kind of excited for a second. But viewing the whole picture makes it a lot more clear that he was probably just poking fun at the fact that the Sonic Twitter followed him.

(I still would personally be hyped if he actually did get the position, though...)

Yeah that was my bad. Plus I got caught up in someone mentioning the binary said it had more than one meaning or something.

[Metal the Mario]

3 minutes ago, SBR2 said:

Yeah that was my bad. Plus I got caught up in someone mentioning the binary said it had more than one meaning or something.

Nah, I don't blame you. I also thought it was something different at first and judging by the tweet's replies, you weren't the only one.

[RaceProUK]

The binary literally says 'Hidden Meaning!'; pretty hard to spin some sort of major conspiracy or reveal from, I'd say.

[Shadowlax]

Sonic and tails fighting eachother in the comic was the hypest shit .  the set uo story for it was real bad though.