Pontaff Retrospective: What's Up with all the Hate?

[shdowhunt60]

3 minutes ago, Mikyeong said:

and that "they are no longer a character, they are forum people!!11" as if members on a forum aren't full and complete human beings. and it's a bit of a streach to say that Pontaff's character writing makes the character walking talking forums. I mean yes they do memes, but they are mostly written like real people who have more relatable experiences..... however still doing abstract things. 

Seriously? No one is laughing at what our saying!!! We just want to know your opinion, that's all!

You're deliberately misconstruing what's said and taking quotes out of context. The whole point was that Sonic and cast don't act like people that are in the situations that they are in, they act like people on the internet reacting to a thing they saw on a Youtube video.

[Diogenes]

1 minute ago, shdowhunt60 said:

You know what? Whatever. You're pretty obviously not going to listen to anything. You're just laugh at anything I say.

If what you say is that silly, yeah, I'll laugh at it.

Really, though, that's what it all comes down to, "your" Sonic vs "my" Sonic. Everyone puts different levels of value on different aspects of the character. And with all the different extra-media iterations of the character and the swingy writing within the game continuity, people's interpretations are all over the place and, predictably, often at odds with each other. You might consider the current direction for the characters to be OOC, but I don't, because it fits pretty well with my interpretation of the characters.

[Chris Knopps]

1 minute ago, Nepenthe said:

The characters are not written like real people. They don't emote towards situations, defend themselves, or ask the obvious questions like real people do. Don't confuse characters joking around for empathy.

Being honest I found the interactions between characters from Sonic 1 until Sonic Unleashed a lot more impressive by far than currently post-Unleashed, the interractions just feel bland or... I dunno, obnoxious.

And keep in mind Mikyeong, the Sonic franchise isn't supposed to be like My Little Pony revolving friendship. It's a thing that's there, yeah, but it's not "friends forever quality for all or bust!" really...

Well, save for Heroes but, I dunno... That game was okay.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

I was saying that they felt like real friends because they have conflicts, hang out and they treat each other like it as well. I want that type of friendship back and I welcome it with open arms. I also don't want them treating one friend more important than the others. It's not all about the jokes. I'm not that stupid. I know what empathy is. 

[Diogenes]

10 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

The characters are not written like real people. They don't emote towards situations, defend themselves, or ask the obvious questions like real people do. Don't confuse characters joking around for empathy.

Could you go into more detail? Because I'm not seeing where any of these have been a problem.

[shdowhunt60]

Just now, Diogenes said:

If what you say is that silly, yeah, I'll laugh at it.

Really, though, that's what it all comes down to, "your" Sonic vs "my" Sonic. Everyone puts different levels of value on different aspects of the character. And with all the different extra-media iterations of the character and the swingy writing within the game continuity, people's interpretations are all over the place and, predictably, often at odds with each other. You might consider the current direction for the characters to be OOC, but I don't, because it fits pretty well with my interpretation of the characters.

I consider it OOC, because that's what it is. There's no "interpreting" here when it comes to a character's personality and how it's portrayed. The Sonic we're getting today does not act the same as the Sonic we had 10 years ago, and yet we're still being lead to believe that these are the same character. I would buy the interpretation excuse if we were dealing with alternative media like Sonic the Comic or SatAM, but not when we're comparing the main series with itself.

[Diogenes]

Quote

The Sonic we're getting today does not act the same as the Sonic we had 10 years ago

Considering it's currently 2016, I'd say we're damn lucky he doesn't act like he did 10 years ago.

And guess what? The Sonic of 10 years ago didn't act like the Sonic of 11 years ago, who didn't act like the Sonic of 13 years ago, who didn't act like the Sonic of 15 years ago. That's kind of one of the series' big problems! And like I said, we all have our own image of Sonic, maybe one from a specific game, more likely some amalgamation of our favorites (and maybe some stuff we just made up). Yours is not the one "true" Sonic no matter how much you want it to be.

[shdowhunt60]

Then at the very fucking least, can he act like a person that's in his own world then? That'd be nice.

[Diogenes]

I would say that he already does, given the kind of person he is. He can act pretty flippant sometimes not because he's been warped into some kind of meme-spewing internet commentator, but because he's a cocky thrill-seeker with the kind of abilities that make most of these situations pretty manageable.

[shdowhunt60]

And given the rest of the narrative direction, and from what I've heard from basically everyone from Pontac to Frieberger... I'm sorry, but no.

[Diogenes]

..."no" to what?

[shdowhunt60]

They don't really act like people that are in the scenarios they are in. People don't sit there and make selfie jokes when their friends are kidnapped. Nobody stands around and cracks jokes to a death robot that doesn't give any reaction to them.Nobody flips out and gets angry for no apparent reason other than sheer whim.

Pontac has already said that he had no idea who these characters were when they wrote Colors. Frieberger said in his recent interview that he writes the characters around the jokes and not the jokes around the characters.

When I say "No", I say fucking no to all of it. This shit doesn't work. This shit isn't good. So, NO. I don't want this. I don't want any of this. Fuck this, the only aspect of the franchise that has anything resembling the narrative direction I want this franchise to follow, it's the fucking comics. At least when Ian Flynn writes Sonic and Tails, he writes fucking Sonic and Tails. Not Pontac and Graff. Not a stupid gag. He writes the fucking characters. 

[KHCast]

6 minutes ago, shdowhunt60 said:

They don't really act like people that are in the scenarios they are in. People don't sit there and make selfie jokes when their friends are kidnapped. Nobody stands around and cracks jokes to a death robot that doesn't give any reaction to them.Nobody flips out and gets angry for no apparent reason other than sheer whim.

 

Good thing this isn't reality. Cause sonic reacting to situations realistically would be boring as shit. 

 

I mean tons of shows, movies, characters, games, etc do this. Devil may cry? Deadpool? Even more grounded acting shows have moments that separate them from reality. You're complaining about basic writing tools.

[Chris Knopps]

Isn't Deadpool kind of in a WAY higher league than Sonic?

I mean... i'd compare the current Sonic and co. more akin to Barney and friends... That's a realistic comparison...

[shdowhunt60]

Did I say realistically? I don't recall that word being used anywhere. The point is, is that Sonic and company don't act like people of their OWN world. They act like people that are in ours. They're either being mouthpieces for Pontac and Graff, or whatever the hell gag Frieberger has whipped up.

Deadpool is even an example of what I mean. Yes, he dances around with the fourth wall, because that's his CHARACTER to do so. That's how he as a person operates. Deadpool is effectively his own person. A psychotic person that somehow subconsciously break the fourth wall, but a person non-the-less.

Sonic and company, in the main series, aren't really like this. They just stand around, throw random jokes, don't care about anything, and point and laugh out how everything is lolrandom and how lame everything is.

I want Sonic to be Sonic. I want Tails to be Tails. I want Eggman to be Eggman. I don't want them to be jokes. I don't want them to be self-inserts for writers. I want them to be them. And they don't act like them. The only comics where the characters are themselves are the comics. It shouldn't be like that.

[KHCast]

My point being that Sonic and Co not being realistic isn't a flaw in characterization or anything like that. Just a different way of approaching the character. There's nothing inherently wrong there, as other franchises have done it without complaint. Gumball doesn't act realistic. Regular show, while it has its moments, doesn't act grounded in reality, so the issue isn't that Sonic isn't realistic, it's that the way it's done isn't applied as well.

 

edit: you didn't say realistic, but saying they don't react to situations like we would is pretty close.

[Chris Knopps]

2 minutes ago, shdowhunt60 said:

Did I say realistically? I don't recall that word being used anywhere. The point is, is that Sonic and company don't act like people of their OWN world. They act like people that are in ours. They're either being mouthpieces for Pontac and Graff, or whatever the hell gag Frieberger has whipped up.

Deadpool is even an example of what I mean. Yes, he dances around with the fourth wall, because that's his CHARACTER to do so. That's how he as a person operates. Deadpool is effectively his own person. A psychotic person that somehow subconsciously break the fourth wall, but a person non-the-less.

Sonic and company, in the main series, aren't really like this. They just stand around, throw random jokes, don't care about anything, and point and laugh out how everything is lolrandom and how lame everything is.

I want Sonic to be Sonic. I want Tails to be Tails. I want Eggman to be Eggman. I don't want them to be jokes. I don't want them to be self-inserts for writers. I want them to be them. And they don't act like them. The only comics where the characters are themselves are the comics. It shouldn't be like that.

Eh, personally I love their SA2, and Unleashed portrayals the most.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

15 minutes ago, KHCast said:

Good thing this isn't reality. Cause sonic reacting to situations realistically would be boring as shit. 

I mean tons of shows, movies, characters, games, etc do this. Devil may cry? Deadpool? Even more grounded acting shows have moments that separate them from reality. You're complaining about basic writing tools.

That's kinda missing his point tho.

"Realism" probably isn't the right term, but there should be a greater connection to the causes and effects of the character's actions, comedic, dramatic, or what have you. Devil May Cry and Deadpool have characters that act so cocky and flippantly - far more so than Sonic, I should add - because they're nigh-immortal and can get away with near-suicidal acts that even Sonic can get away with. Yet, at least in DMC's case, if you put something at risk that Dante cares about or has a greater attachment to (his mother's amulet, his brother Vergil trying to bring a litteral hell on Earth, hell his brother even being in the same room as him as he tries to kill him over this), that attitude changes real fast. DMC at the very least portrays a lot of viceral feeling in the characters that even Sonic doesn't do.

[Nepenthe]

The friendship that Sonic and Chip had possessed the same relatable qualities that Sonic and Tails are supposedly said to have in later games. They share with each other, they fight and annoy one another, they support one another, and they treat each other with respect. The major difference between Sonic's relationship with Chip and his relationship with Tails is that the former is allowed to develop naturally through empathetic actions.

Sonic and Tails literally do not hit each other in play fights nor do they just poke and prod one another. Hell, I can barely remember a cut scene where these fuckers touch one another beyond necessary actions like pulling someone out of danger (I think they high five in Colors maybe?) which is actually pretty fucking weird for supposed brothers from another mother and characters being toted as "human". Like, me and my best friend will physically fight with one another to various degrees, and that's because our love for one another provides the subtext for these fights to not a big deal, or to act as a display of love. Instead, we're privy to a lot of casual agreement and joking between the two but none of it has the oppositional subtext underpinning a believable friendship.

Meanwhile, Sonic and Chip hit one another, they push one another around, they annoy another, but they also share food, Chip will ride on his head and Sonic silently consents to it, they share mutual laughter (something I also can't remember Sonic and Tails doing), Chip visibly accompanies Sonic everywhere, and so on and so on, much of which is done without surface-level dialogue meant to remind the audience that they're super best friends. Sonic and Chip act far more naturally and amusingly- more like real people- than Sonic and Tails have in the proceeding games.

1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

Could you go into more detail? Because I'm not seeing where any of these have been a problem.

This is just my opinions on LW boiled down to a more of general statement. But in detail:

Tails goes in on Eggman unprompted in the fight cut scene and then turns his self righteous anger towards Sonic who did nothing wrong. The game tries to present the heroes and Eggman working together under mutual circumstances as something that has no precedent whatsoever which does a disservice the depth of the characters. Sonic- as attitudinal as he is- is always on the defensive and never calls Tails or Eggman out on their dumb shit, particularly Eggman since he enslaved the Six in the first place. Eggman has that outburst against the Six that doesn't go anywhere which undermines the foreshadowing abilities of the game. Hell, Eggman is alive in general, and Tails was basically released from being held hostage, because the Six are idiots. Tails is basically condoned by the narrative because every action is either the right one or morally justified. There's probably other issues I have with how the characters act but I'm in class.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

47 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

I would say that he already does, given the kind of person he is. He can act pretty flippant sometimes not because he's been warped into some kind of meme-spewing internet commentator, but because he's a cocky thrill-seeker with the kind of abilities that make most of these situations pretty manageable.

Exactly. He still has that same edge but does thing more relatable at the same time. 

[KHCast]

3 minutes ago, ChaosSupremeSonic said:

That's kinda missing his point tho.

"Realism" probably isn't the right term, but there should be a greater connection to the causes and effects of the character's actions. Devil May Cry and Deadpool have characters that act so cocky and flippantly - far more so than Sonic, I should add - because they're nigh-immortal and can get away with near-suicidal acts that even Sonic can get away with. Yet, at least in DMC's case, if you put something at risk that Dante cares about or has a greater attachment to (his mother's amulet, his brother Vergil trying to bring a litteral hell on Earth, hell his brother even being in the same room as him as he tries to kill him over this), that attitude changes real fast. DMC at the very least portrays a lot of viceral feeling in the characters that even Sonic doesn't do.

You probably explained it better there. I was of the assumption that humor in general towards a serious situation was being considered a flaw not allowed in sonic. I can understand wanting a more grounded cause and effect situation every now and then, just not all the time personally.

[Chris Knopps]

Just now, Mikyeong said:

Exactly. He still has that same edge but does thing more relatable at the same time. 

Is Sonic relating to everyone really a good thing...?
Seems to be at the cost of his individuality, his character... Which doesn't seem to be doing much for the franchise.

[shdowhunt60]

3 minutes ago, KHCast said:

You probably explained it better there. I was of the assumption that humor in general towards a serious situation was being considered a flaw not allowed in sonic. I can understand wanting a more grounded cause and effect situation every now and then, just not all the time personally.

That's never been the case. Humor is perfectly cool. It's just the humor that we've had for the past 6 years is something I don't really consider acceptable. I want humor that logically stems from the characters and their personalities. Character-based humor. Not just lol-random for the sake of lolz.

[KHCast]

Some of the lol random humor I don't mind. I like that kind of humor when done well( Regular Show, Gumball, even South Park at times). It just shouldn't be all there is, especially when most of it is mediocre.

[Chris Knopps]

Just now, KHCast said:

Some of the lol random humor I don't mind. I like that kind of humor when done well( Regular Show, Gumball, even South Park at times). It just shouldn't be all there is, especially when most of it is mediocre.

I like the humor in Adventure Time myself.