Pontaff Retrospective: What's Up with all the Hate?

[FriendBot]

I know some of you are reading this saying, what's the point of this topic? People just don't like their style of writing, we've gone through this like a million times already and etc.

Well that may be true on some of those points, maybe people just don't care for their writing and stuff like that. But answer me this: If people just didn't like their writing then why doesn't Pontac not talk about the series anymore? I recall an image presented somewhere on the forum showing as such. And of course, in typical Sonic fanboy behavior, there has been a major backlash and hate on these two people, coincidentally mostly from the Adventure era fans. I felt that I shouldn't be quiet about the matter, I should atleast get people talking about it.

I'm not exactly the intellectually strong with these kinds of things, I was always more of the explorative type. Rather than saying why a thing is good/bad, I prefer finding and THEN confirming if it is so. So if this comes off as rambling in times, that's the reason. 

But first a quick retrospective on Pontaff's work on the series.

So yeah, back at ol' 2010. When we first saw the cutscene of the game with Sonic interacting with Yacker. I'm pretty sure I recall people praising the voice actors (I think?) and the writing as well. It was harmless cartoony fun, which in my eyes can work since I was always thought that Sonic can work both as an anime and a cartoon. But I guess when we played Colors and later games written by Pontaff, people began questioning about the story. I think it was Generations that kickstarted this "questioning" phase due to the lack of substance in the story, being very barebones and such. This can be considered one of Generations' weaker points since Gens is pretty much a game celebrating everything Sonic, from the ol' Classic days to the radicool Adventure era to the current times, so of course fans could imagine how many inside jokes and references the story would have and it didn't pay off, to say the least. 

Then came Lost World, people were certainly feeling kind of mixed about it. The overly cartoony style was a bit much for some, others were satisfied that the Boost was finally gone so the gameplay can be more engaging or something like that. And then the Deadly Six were revealed and that was also kind of mixed but I think there was more positive then negative really. And the game came out and it disappointed a lot of people, but as time went on, a lot of criticism for the story went on. The cutscenes feel disjointed and lacks a sense of flow, plot points came and went, some questionable character choices (specifically Tails) and overall a lack of context of the Lost Hex, Zeti and etc. These are all very reasonable criticisms especially since stories of the past didn't have some of these flaws.

And then Shattered Crystal came around and a lot people didn't really enjoy the story either but it wasn't as vocal than Lost World. And then it was announced that Pontaff are going to write the story of Fire & Ice and now people have grown tired of them.

Of course, being tired of seeing the same typical cartoony dialogue for Sonic for the past 6 years can be tiresome and grating for people but does that mean it's justifiable to wish death upon them?

As I said, most of the backlash has come from the Adventure crowd. So of course fans of the more story-heavy Sonic will be the ones that really don't like their work but I guess some of the rabid fans just go absolute nuts and hate them. I mean, this backlash seems to have been vocal enough to turn Pontac off from communicating with the community and that's just the beginning. I recall people talking to Steve Lycett (That's his name, right?) about if Sumo is ever going to work on another All-Stars game, which he respectfully gave no straight answer but I guess people constantly spam him about it, he got ded up and removed all of his contacts from Facebook since it was his personal account and it was just too much for him. Then Iizuka has getting a lot of fans telling him about things like, whether Nazo was an actual character, which he deconfirmed it, or how fast Sonic can go. That's all fine but saying "MAKE SONIC ADVENTURE 3!" is just not a polite thing to say to a higher-up, you come off as a self-entitled spoiled brat.

So yeah, a lot of official Sonic people has been getting spammed alot for pretty petty reasons. Jeez, talk about off-topic.

Ok, enough nonsense. So I'm pretty sure most of us, SSMB members, do believe that Pontaff has been getting too much hate for doing their jobs. Mocking them for not knowing the series' history even though Sonic Team are the ones to blame really, wishing them to give up their jobs and calling them "amateurs" even though they've been writing for a quite a long time and they seem like nice guys based on Roger's interview on Pontac. 

At the end, what do you guys feel about Pontaff? Do you think they're deserving of their hate or not? Since it seems like they'll still be around, what improvements should be made?

For me, I don't hate them, like at all and of course, the hate is seriously overblown. I do enjoy some of their jokes and love their work on Eggman and Sonic and Tails' bromance. I also do enjoy the D6 a lot as well, I found Zavok to be deliciously evil and the other members while one-note to have some moments with Sonic. What I will like to see improve, a more proper pace would be nice and Sonic being a bit less smug would also be splendid, I guess for their style of humor don't make it so detached since Sonic as a series always embraced its world and had fun with it, so if Pontaff were to do the same, that would be awesome!

 

 

 

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

I like Mr Pontaff's writing in Sonic games. I love the way they do Sonic and their way of doing Sonic makes me love Sonic even more. They make his character fun and cocky but also very caring and he makes sure to punch the douchebag that messes with his friends. 

They stick to the fun cheery stories which I like that. The jokes are fine. Even calling him McNosehair is funny and they dont do it all the time. In fact they only call him McNosehair TWICE. (one time in Colors and another in Lost World)

Sonic Generations is a fun story to of two Sonics saving friends which is always cool to see. The jokes and game refrenses are too funny as well.

Lost World was full of fun and jokes. And you know... Egghead deserves it,

all and all Sonic is a series about a blue hedgehog who can run really fast and I think Mr Pontaff's writing goes with the theme. They still keep Sonic well mannored, funny and ready to fight but they make him crack jokes to. 

 

Edited September 28, 2015 by Sonikku/

[Clewis]

I have nothing against the series’ current writers, if anything I feel like the dialogue they write flows a lot more smoothly compared to most of the dialogue I've listened to from Adventure to 06.

That being said, nothing they’ve written for the franchise so far has been particularly impressive in my eyes, so I really wouldn’t be bothered if they ended up getting replaced with another writing team somewhere down the line.

[azoo]

I'm sure it's not Pontac and Graff's fault for the really constrained storylines or lack of ability to expand (that's alllll Sega), but I honestly don't know who else you'd really give the hokey-jokey character roasting up to, considering that's most of the dialogue in the current games (particularly Lost World).

Plus, I'm not sure how well the characters' personalities match their Sega/Sonic Channel given bios, considering they seem like different interpretations of them compared to how they'd been for a grand majority of the series' run, and you mostly only see things like sorta-stuck-up Tails and dorky dudebro Sonic in the games they led the writing to. Plus, Orbot and Cubot's whole dynamic and how it plays off of Eggman.

It's weird. The current Sonic games in regards to tone and character personalities feels more in line with Boom than anything preceding it, despite having a different setup with starkly different ways of handling things. Maybe Boom's way of writing was adopted from Pontac and Graff's writing decisions, or possibly the other way around (considering Boom's long-time preproduction)?

I'd like to see Sega take them off the leash and let them make a more adventurous game, but I'm not sure if I'd like the end product after all is said and done. Most of it would probably be hit-or-miss jokes, one liners, or smarmy callouts/insults between every character, and I'm not really fond of that kind of writing despite it having it's moments.

[Dr. Mechano]

Pontac and Graff actually know how to write Eggman, and for that they're aces with me.

Seriously, from Heroes to 2k6, the writers of this series just had no idea how to use Eggman in any meaningful way. After a positively stellar role in SA2, they completely dropped the ball in Heroes, making him a passive captive/cheerleader for the heroes. In Shadow the Hedgehog, he's an ineffectual nuisance at best and getting slapped to death by Shadow at worst (Seriously Iizuka, what was up with those stupid endings?). Then in 2k6, his role consists of "Repeatedly kidnap Elise, then show up to cheer Sonic on in the last story without actually doing anything of substance to help him."

Unleashed finally broke this chain, since - even though he still wasn't the main antagonist - Eggman's personality returned in full force. He was hamming it up with great one-liners and still managed to be a competent threat by defeating Super Sonic and building Eggman Land. While this wasn't a Pontac/Graff game, I feel like it serves as a precursor to their signature style. It was lighthearted and more comedic, and featured more personality from the characters, Eggman in particular.

With the writing duo's debut in Colors, they firmly established what Unleashed had already set out to do, affirming the overall tone of the series as less grim and more fun. The plot was comparable to a Genesis game in its simplicity; Eggman's trying to take over the world, and Sonic has to stop him. That's all, and yet the execution was beautiful. Eggman got to steal the show even more than he did in Unleashed, and this time, he finally reclaimed his long-forgotten main villain status. His bantering with Orbot and Cubot was also lovely.

What's that, though? We need a little more nuance and not just jokes? Lost World's got you covered. And this time, Eggman's moral complexity gets time to shine. The guy saves the lives of both Tails and Sonic, and even though he ends up as the game's final boss, the narrative is decidedly ambiguous about his intentions prior to the battle. Was he genuinely acting out of nobility, or merely being opportunistic to earn their trust? Technically, he did stick to the deal and work with them until the Zeti were taken care of before attacking Sonic, at which point their truce would have been officially over anyway. So strictly speaking, he didn't really betray Sonic here. Either way, Eggman showed a little more range here than he did in Colors, and far more than he did in the Heroes-Shadow-2k6 dark age.

These guys get how to write my favorite character. They've written the best Eggman since SA2, and I for one hope they return for the next main-series game.

[Salamander]

I think a lot of my personal distaste for their work has more to do with the context in which that work occurred and subsequently was presented.  I think they were almost certainly hired for their work on children's cartoons and given the impression that they should write Sonic to a similar tone, they were given little to no information about the background of the series, they have no influence on how their written material is presented, a lot of the elements of what they write were dictated to them, they've indicated that they've been asked to complete some of their work in a rush.  I don't like their work, but I don't think I can hold them responsible in any meaningful sense.  Sonic Team should've just stuck with its in-house writers, who seem to have gotten back on the right track after '06.

[Roger_van_der_weide]

Well first of all, not sure if "A bunch of dumb Sonic fans treat the Sega staff horribly"  is super relevant in a discussion about Pontac and Graff, it's an entirely diffrent problem.
And pointing fingers to the Adevnture crowd or any other crowd is pointless, idiots are in every corner.
What can I say, something about Sonic makes him relatable to people with lacking social skills.

There's huge variations of age within the Sonic fanbase, so there's kids.
There's the people with lacking social skills.
Then there's the fact following Sonic is a huge emotional rollercoaster with it going from one insane direction to the next.
Everything combined can create an unhealthy envirement.
Sucks to be a big figure in the Sonic development world, but alas.
It's the price you pay for being involved with Sonic.

So yeah, Pontaff.
First, to explain the levels of hate, or at least levels of attention I give them.

First me personally, the main reason why I consider Pontaff a bigger problem then "Shadow is edgey" and "Sonic 06 is glitchy" and whatever is because the problems they cause is still relevant.
Sonic 06/ Shadow were problematic and stupid misfires.
Sega learned their lesson, they moved on. End of chapter.
Yeah, there's fans demanding it to return, whatever.
Sega's more on their guard, so even if they decide to give it a new shot, they'll avoid the most obvious pitfalls next time.

Pontaff, on the other hand is still on going.

Second, lack of alternatives.
During the "dark age" of Shadow and Sonic 06, well, there was Sonic Heroes right before, and Sonic advance hopping around inbetween.
Ever since Pontaff took over tough, no break, no mercy.
100% self referential sarcastic humor 24/ 7.
For almost a decade straight versus only 5 years of"dark age".
The only break from the self depricating comedy we had is Sonic and the Black Knight.
Well, and Rush adventure.
So it isn't a matter of "well, this game isn't for you, wait for the next one."
It just keeps going.

Now as for my issues with Pontaff, there's a whole list, some you mention:

1) The story has no flow. Each scene exists in it's own universe.

2) Characters also only exist in the now.
I'm missing a sense of mytholgy (past) and motivation (Future)
Everyone only exists to make punchlines.

3)Lack of visuals and action.
90% of the cutscenes is characters standing in a room/ empty field yapping.

4) Style overtakes characters.
Pontaff don't write characters or story, they write style.
They have such a distinct way of using words and sentences, I no longer feel I'm watching Sonic and Tails talk, I'm litteraly staring at 2 actors reading Pontaff poetry.

 

These 4 points combined create one big problem that I consider a huge problem: Nothing feels genuine.
This isn't "Comedy versus Serious"
This is "Artificial comedy versus genuine narrative."

There isn't a single scene where characters have a genuine reaction or emotion without it turning into a overblown comedyskit.
No matter if someone is kidnapped, hurt, stuck in a crashing plane, beholding the wonders of a new civilazation, it'll only lead to a 10 minute comedy routine.

I mean, one liners are cool, but it's never a punchline, it's always a punch marathon.
A wry remark when things go bad, or a badass boast when a fight is about to happen is great, but they just keep on going and going about grammatical structures and complex analogues.
They're not characters, they're stand up comedians showing off their wit.
Pontaff can only write one thing and that's themselves.
That's why they're at their best when they just write commentary (Eggman's PIA anouncements, Mad world)

People like how they write Eggman? Well yeah, they get the Showman Eggman right, the clown, the performance, because Pontaff are performers.
But it's empty and shallow because the gears beneath are missing.
Eggman, to me, needs to be a combination between clown and evil dictator.
His strenght comes from the contrast of industrialist animal enslaver and goofy manchild.
Pontaff only get's one half right.
The second half, IF it even appears, is usually forced and meaningless (His anger at the Deadly Six that goes nowhere)
So sure, as long as Eggman is performing, being the theaterical clown, Pontaff got him covered.
But as soon as his defenses crack, or we get a glimpse in his motivations, feelings or his drive, it falls apart. There's nothing.


Nohing feels real. Everything is an artificial performance.
And that hurts the characters, the emotions and even the comedy.
I can't laugh at the jokes because they're too artificial.
Nothing is genuine.
Jokes and emotions don't flow naturally from who the characters are and what they're doing, they're forced.


Sonic and friends are no longer real characters in a real world.
They're representatives of the writer's insecurities, the audience's desires.
They're there to make us think about ourselves, or praise the creators.
They're not there to have an exciting adventure.

Edited October 3, 2015 by Roger_van_der_weide

[PC the Hedgehog]

I like Pontac and Graff's characterizations. Unlike games before their involvement, the characters are actually witty and fun.

The problem is, their "humor" has virtually no subtlety. They'll take a mildly amusing joke and continue on with it until it's no longer funny. I could put up with a handful of overdone jokes, but they overdo practically EVERY joke they write, and it makes me cringe almost every time a character opens their mouth.

Of course, it all boils down to personal taste, but here are some quick examples that I found on TV Tropes. Text in red is where I think the joke goes too far.

Eggman: "We know they look delicious, but please refrain from licking the rides. That would be disgusting. Do you know where those rides have been? People have been sitting on those rides! WITH THEIR BUTTS! Okay, go ahead. Lick them. Don't say we didn't warn you."

Eggman: Leaving so soon? There are no lines, and I've saved the best rides for last! At least let me stamp your hand so you can come back in! 
Sonic: Ugh, I know you're trying to be clever with this whole "amusement-park-pun" thing, but it's just coming offlame. Just say you're going to destroy us and stop embarrassing yourself. 
Eggman: Curse you, Sonic! Not only do you foil my plans, but you foil my speeches as well! I work hard on them! No matter, I WILL destroy you, and I WILL be victorious!...Is that better? 
Sonic: Like, a million times better. Thank you.

Eggman: Finally, I don't think anything could be more annoying than that cowboy chatter.
Cubot: Yar! Feelin' ship-shape with me new voice chip, I am. Ah-beggin' yer pardon, squire, but me and my matey are going to sail off an' search fer that lubber Sonic. Arr!
Orbot: I think that's the wrong chip.
Eggman: Really? Are you sure he doesn't normally speak in pirate?
Orbot: On the bright side, he's much more exotic now.

[Diogenes]

Sometimes I feel like they get more hate than then would otherwise simply because people have a name they can stick it to. Even if you do outright hate their work on Sonic, you can't say this is the first time the series has had terrible writing. But I don't remember seeing any of the intense, almost personal hatred that P&G get from some people directed at the writers for games like ShtH and '06.

And no this isn't "P&G are perfect stupid stop complaining!!!", there are genuine criticisms to make about the games they've been involved in, but a lot of times the conversation seems to get buried under some pretty nasty and unwarranted sentiments.

[Dr. Mechano]

I like Pontac and Graff's characterizations. Unlike games before their involvement, the characters are actually witty and fun.

The problem is, their "humor" has virtually no subtlety. They'll take a mildly amusing joke and continue on with it until it's no longer funny. I could put up with a handful of overdone jokes, but they overdo practically EVERY joke they write, and it makes me cringe almost every time a character opens their mouth.

You know what? I'll give you that. A good comedian doesn't need to laugh at their own jokes.

I feel like 90% of the problems I do have with their writing (which isn't much, as I detailed above how much I like them) could be solved if they'd just tell a joke and move on, as opposed to having another character bust out laughing at how funny it was.

I feel like Lost World had less of a problem with this than Colors did, to be fair.

Edited September 28, 2015 by Dr. Mechano

[Xenos]

I have pretty much nothing personal with those two, but I don't like their writing pretty much at all. The characters that actually talk in whatever they write have felt pretty lifeless ever since after Colors. Their writing is just really juvenile and I don't find anything about most of the dialogue funny, nor can I take things that are supposed to be taken seriously, well...seriously. The Deadly Six were as boring as you could get (aside from the depressed one, he's probably the only one that made me laugh).

 

But you can't blame them for everything though. They're on a pretty tight leash when it comes to current Sonic games.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I'm not entirely fond of the Pontac and Graff's work, per se - I give them credit where it's due, but it's not that impressive over all. It's joke heavy to the point that it's more noticeable than the actual narrative and some scenes they've written are rather disjointed. However, it can be funny when the timing of the delivery is good.

That said, I don't hate them, primarily because last time we heard they were going to be more off the leash, it was revealed that they were still on the leash from the get go. I feel the real problem is, and always has been, Sonic Team/SEGA not having a direction to stick to as they continue jumping around all over the place. In this case, they hired western writers to write for the games in a way that gives the illusion that they're listening to western fans who want good narrative...then botched it up by still writing the narrative that Pontac and Graff are to fill in the blanks, if you get what I'm saying.

I think a lot of the agitation is misdirected ever since these two have been made the face of the game narrative. It's like how people scapegoated the Sonic characters in the games since arguably Heroes-06 (which some reviewers continued doing in Generations where the characters did fuck all) before realizing they weren't the problem when they were mostly absent in Unleashed - people have something tangible to blame, so they direct it there. Were that not the case, and had Pontac and Graff not been mention, where could they direct it so easily?

Edited September 28, 2015 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[SenEDDtor Missile]

I don't really care for Pontaff. Their work is just plain juvenile and stupid at worst and forgettable at best. Yeah the older stuff PRIOR to Colors was juvenile and stupid at times but at least it didn't constantly rub that in my face and grate my nerves everytime I watch Sonic game cutscenes. Granted I recognize much of the problem is also because of SEGA and Sonic Team, but Pontaff isn't completely blameless.

Edited September 28, 2015 by SenEDtor Missile

[FriendBot]

Well first of all, not sure if "A bunch of dumb Sonic fans treat the Sega staff horribly"  is super relevant in a discussion about Pontac and Graff, it's an entirely diffrent problem.
And pointing fingers to the Adevnture crowd or any other crowd is pointless, idiots are in every corner.
What can I say, something about Sonic makes him relatable to people with lacking social skills.

There's huge variations of age within the Sonic fanbase, so there's kids.
There's the people with lacking social skills.
Then there's the fact following Sonic is a huge emotional rollercoaster with it going from one insane direction to the next.
Everything combined can create an unhealthy envirement.
Sucks to be a big figure in the Sonic development world, but alas.
It's the price you pay for being involved with Sonic.

So yeah, Pontaff.
First, to explain the levels of hate, or at least levels of attention I give them.

First me personally, the main reason why I consider Pontaff a bigger problem then "Shadow is edgey" and "Sonic 06 is glitchy" and whatever is because the problems they cause is still relevant.
Sonic 06/ Shadow were problematic and stupid misfires.
Sega learned their lesson, they moved on. End of chapter.
Pontaff, on the other hand is still on going.

Second, lack of alternatives.
During the "dark age" of Shadow and Sonic 06, well, there was Sonic Heroes right before, and Sonic advance hopping aroudn inbetween.
Ever since Pontaff took over tough, no break, no mercy.
100% self referential sarcastic humor 24/ 7.
For almost a decade straight versus only 5 years of"dark age".
The only break from the comedy we had is Sonic and the Black Knight.
Well, and Rush adventure.
So it isn't a matter of "well, this game isn't for you, wait for the next one."
It just keeps going.

Now as for my issues with Pontaff, there's a whole list, some you mention:

1) The story has no flow. Each scene exists in it's own universe.

2) Characters also only exist in the now.
I'm missing a sense of mytholgy (past) and motivation (Future)
Everyone only exists to make punchlines.

3)Lack of visuals and action.
90% of the cutscenes is characters standing in a room/ empty field yapping.

4) Style overtakes characters.
Pontaff don't write characters or story, they write style.
They have such a distinct way of using words and sentences, I no longer feel I'm watching Sonic and Tails talk, I'm litteraly staring at 2 actors reading Pontaff poetry.

 

These 4 points combined create one big problem that I consider a huge problem: Nothing feels genuine.
This isn't "Comedy versus Serious"
This is "Artificial comedy versus genuine narrative."

There isn't a single scene where characters have a genuine reaction or emotion without it turning into a overblown comedyskit.
No matter if someone is kidnapped, hurt, stuck in a crashing plane, beholding the wonders of a new civilazation, it'll only lead to a 10 minute comedy routine.

I mean, one liners are cool, but it's never a punchline, it's always a punch marathon.
A wry remark when things go bad, or a badass boast when a fight is about to happen is great, but they just keep on going and going about grammatical structures and complex analogues.
They're not characters, they're stand up comedians showing off their wit.
Pontaff can only write one thing and that's themselves.
That's why they're at their best when they just write commentary (Eggman's PIA anouncements, Mad world)


Nohing feels real.
And that hurts the characters, the emotions and even the comedy.
I can't laugh at the jokes because they're too artificial.
They don't flow naturally from who the characters are and what they're doing, they're forced.
The only reason why people think the dialogue flows is because they look at it as if it's a Stand up comedian act.


Sonic and friends are no longer real characters in a real world.
They're representatives of the writer's insecurities, the audience's desires.
They're there to make us think about ourselves, or praise the creators.
They're not there to have an exciting adventure.

It's driving me nuts. Everything's artificial, nothing flows naturally.

I'm tired of it.

Admittedly, I knew I was going off-tangent with that and I did say in a status that I didn't wrote it that well. 

While I don't feel that EVERY scene an overblown comedy skit, unless it's Colors but I get it. While it is true that the characters don't feel that genuine nowadays or have any actual goals outside of "Stop Eggman/MOTW", I really don't feel that everything is detached, there are a few scenes where there's no comedy at all. Like in Colors, Sonic and Tails sees the factory where the Wisps' energy source gets taken out of them or in Lost World, that very quiet scene with Sonic being pretty depressed. Of course, that's only 2 scenes out of what, 60+ comedic ones?

I guess, Pontaff could use a balance of comedy and serious. Which is what I feel Unleashed hit the nail on even if most of the story was lacking, the opening scene is just what you always expect of Sonic, over-the-top anime-esque B action heroness! Then it has its comical moments where Sonic looks like a badass while Chip acts all goofy and such, it provides a nice contrast between the 2. It helps that Sonic in Unleashed was a lot more mellow but he's still snarky while Chip is just full of enrgy and excitement since he has never the planet before.

But we're talking about Pontaff here.

The only reason why people think the dialogue flows is because they look at it as if it's a Stand up comedian act.


Sonic and friends are no longer real characters in a real world.
They're representatives of the writer's insecurities, the audience's desires.
They're there to make us think about ourselves, or praise the creators.
They're not there to have an exciting adventure.

It's driving me nuts. Everything's artificial, nothing flows naturally.

I'm tired of it.

I get that it's tiring but is it a bad thing? Like too much of anything is bad, too much serious, the series looses its comical lightheartedness. Too much silliness, as you said, the characters don't feel genuine and aren't there to create an narrative. Like is the reason why people hate kiddy Sonic now is because it's the only thing available in terms of the games? Because that does make sense. Over-saturation of lightheartedness, I can consider as an issue with the series.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

The main reason I dislike Potac and Graff's work is I've seen far far better, and they're honestly tied with 06 for worst writing for me personally. I've gone through the entire reasoning why I dislike them time and time again, but in general, the stories are unbelievably underdeveloped, the characters are as one dimensional as you get with them, the jokes are almost never funny, the only exception usually being Eggman getting a few good lines, or Sonic getting one or two witty one liners in here and there, but that's it.

And it's not a case of "Oh, it's because of Sega". It may be true for Generations and Colours, but to my knowledge, They were given full control of Lost World and Shatted Crystal, which in general, is even worse than 06 in my opinion in terms of story. Lost World was a flanderizing mess of a game which try to shoe horn in conflict between Sonic & Tails, but due to bad writing, it's far too underdeveloped and comes off as Tails acting like a whiny brat for no reason. Tails seems to have a massive ego in Lost World, constantly showing off his inventions, and always trying to one up Eggman for no reason, especially in the middle of such a dangerous situation. On top of that, do I even need to mention The Deadly Six?

The Deadly Six could have had so much potential to be good villains, but instead, it's all lazy writing and the most one dimensional personalities you can have. "Oh look, Zeena's a girl! Make her a bratty stuck up girl who only cares about her nails and her looks!" or "Oh look, Zomom's fat! Make him only talk about food and eating!". Literally, the only character they can really do competently is Eggman, and even then I'd argue his Boom counterpart is still superior. I could go on and on about the problems I have with Lost World, like Knuckles only being there to be a goofball, or how much they desperately try to hammer in that "SONIC'S A HOTHEADED IDIOT! :D". 

Then there's Scattered Crystal, which more or less can be summed up as a bunch of stupid jokes, and seeing my favourite characters act like flanderized dumbasses. Knuckles "Amy thinks I'm a piece of meat.....WHICH IS AWESOME" line is one that especially stings Knuckles fans as that's one worry they've had since the conception of Boom, that Knuckles would be turned into nothing more than a musclehead idiot. 

But then there's also the quality of jokes, and how much they seem to be desperately trying to tell you "THIS IS WHERE YOU LAUGH! WHY AREN'T YOU LAUGHING?!". Every single fucking time a joke is uttered in the new games, it seems to need someone in the background shouting "HAHA GOOD ONE BUDDY THAT WAS FUNNY, NOW EVERYONE LAUGH". It's an annoying trait because it's like it's trying to tell the player that there's a joke there, despite the fact that a fucking joke should be obviously there. As the Joker would say it...

 

And speaking of which, there's other small things, like a lot of cutscenes being created, not to progress the story further, or build the character development or such, but rather just use them as an excuse for the characters to shout out really lame and unfunny jokes. I mean for example, in games like Colours, I think I may have only laughed once or twice, at lines like "No copyright law in the universe will stop me Eggman!" and even then, that's more funny in hindsight, considering what happened with Archie Sonic.

Speaking of which, that's a massive factor in it. I'm a Archie Sonic fan, which means I've seen these characters written better, with their original personalities shining and everything. I haven't laughed once from watching Knuckles in any of Potac and Graff's Sonic games, but within one issue of Sonic, Knuckles is a fucking comedy gold mine because Ian Flynn either plays him as the straight man, the innocent who's unaware of how he fucked up, or just spouting out much better one liners than the games, and the best part? He still has his original gruff, and serious personality. 

And that's a major factor here. It's not that I don't like Sonic games having humor, it's the fact that I've seen it done so much better so many times in the comics, where the characters are filled with personality, and the jokes feel more than throw away one liners and the characters stating the obvious. The story, characters, and dialogue on a whole feels much better written, and better constructed than what any of the games have managed to pull off, and plus, there's the fact that Potac and Graff single handedly managed to make me hate one of my favourite game characters (Tails) in the span of one game, along with every other character, the exception being Eggman.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

 the characters are as one dimensional as you get with them,

K, don't take this too personally, but this is a bit of a personal tick I have when I see this, as I feel I need to inform people what character dimensions are so that they're more aware, because a "one dimensional" character are those random, unnamed people in the background used to fill space. A "dimension" regarding a character is basically "what you know" about said character: their appearance (1^st dimension), their personality (2^nd dimension), and their history (3^rd dimension).

It would be far more true to say characters like the Wisps or Deadly Six very "two dimensional" instead, because those are characters who we know in their appearances and personality, but nothing about their history. Sonic, Tails, and Eggman, are "three dimensional" by default, because after 20+ years of knowing about them as much as they do each other, that's basically their history.

Hope that helps people understand "Character Dimensions" more.

Edited September 28, 2015 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Ryannumber1gamer]

K, don't take this too personally, but this is a bit of a personal tick I have when I see this, as I feel I need to inform people what character dimensions are so that they're more aware, because a "one dimensional" character are those random, unnamed people in the background used to fill space. A "dimension" regarding a character is basically "what you know" about said character: their appearance (1^st dimension), their personality (2^nd dimension), and their history (3^rd dimension).

It would be far more true to say characters like the Wisps or Deadly Six very "two dimensional" instead, because those are characters who we know in their appearances and personality, but nothing about their history. Sonic, Tails, and Eggman, are "three dimensional" by default, because after 20+ years of knowing about them as much as they do each other, that's basically their history.

Hope that helps people understand "Character Dimensions" more.

Fair enough, change one dimensional with one note, and you have pretty much what I mean.

[FriendBot]

While I understand that the Deadly Six are very one-note, I still found them to be really fun characters for Sonic to bounce off of.

I mean, when Sonic and Zazz first interacted, I found it to be very funny. "Are you disrespecting me?" "maybe."

The D6 can work both as comical and deadly villains, I mean during Worlds Unite, Zik controlled Mega Man and made him shot himself with a full charged shot with Zazz mocking him. That was pretty dark so I can see some potential for them, I guess just make better use of them, I guess? Though it may seem like they're one-offs......

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

Now that I am sitting at a keyboard I can say things better:

For the complaint about Sonic not feeling like a character but as a stand up comedian, I disagree. I also disagree about them not talking like friends. 

Sonic in those games never came like a "stand up comedy" act at lease to me he didn't. The whole damn game and lines werent all shits and giggles. Only a few parts were to lighten up the mood. Also Sonic and friends WAS a full complete characters with the writers. Yes the jokes people dont understand or get them, but he (Sonic) was still the same caring hero he was in the older games. Yes Sonic seens things as shits and giggles but he KNOWS when to be serious. Also the friends in RoL did feel like they been close friends for years (in my opinion) and worked as a team.

  So yes I really disagree. Im sorry but I do.

[Scar]

When the plot is so painfully thin and all the cutscenes and story segments have been animated, there isn't much any writer can do to make it better. At least Graff and Pontac attempted to add some personality to the cutscenes instead of having them be irritating exposition dumps.

Why are they often so full of poor or juvenile jokes? I don't actually know, might have something to do with what the higher ups WANT them to do. That or again, the plot is so thin, that they can't actually create meaningful dialogue about the circumstances in the narrative beyond jokes and one-liners. But this is pure guesswork.

Edited September 28, 2015 by Scar

[Kuzu]

At this point, I've found it extremely hard to give a shit anymore :V

 

But if you want my two cents, I generally agree with Roger, the writing just doesn't feel genuine to me. It just feels...empty, void of life and agency. Its like, when I first played Colors, I actually was enjoying myself and thought it the bees knees, but then when I revisited it a few months later, I just didn't care...about anything. To me, their games feel less like an adventure and more like a constant comedy routine and yea, I get the occasional chuckle here and there, but I don't get a sense of investment in whatever is going on so I feel like there's a bit of disconnect. 

However, I do mostly blame this on my biases; I prefer exciting and interesting things to happen, whether through action or exploring characterization, I like learning new things about the cast and exploring a setting. Its why games like Black Knight are more my fancy as far as writing goes, they're exciting to watch unfold and I learn more about the characters involved. To give Pontac and Graff some credit tho for Lost World, Tails notwithstanding, it at least tried to add some depth. It was genuinely going for something poignant and appropriate stakes; I dunno whether it was due to their own inexperience, but it just kinda collapsed in itself. 

 

I can see the makings of a good story in Lost World, so they at least have the potential to write meaningfully and I would at least like to see them try. Shattered Crystal and Colors/Generation are pretty piss tho. 

[Nepenthe]

I think a lot of the backlash can be explained by remembering that Pontaff's hiring was done in an environment where Sonic Team was racing to push away a lot of the previous elements of storytelling that were panned not just for being badly executed but for suddenly being unfit in their totality to be featured in a Sonic game at all regardless of historical context. Subsequently it was time where people in the fandom were adamant on reminding us that the Japanese were simply out of touch and didn't care for Sonic enough to either give a damn or to be artistically capable of putting in the effort to make something good, and that more western sensibilities were what were needed to bring the franchise out of the gutter regarding its narrative. Pontaff is tied to the complete dismissal and hubris of the "other side" where being invested in the stories about a blue hedgehog was suddenly nonsense because apparently it's a sign of irrationality to be invested in cartoons, and the other end of the logical extreme was the only or most right approach to doing things. Everything had to be "funny" (I honestly haven't had a significant laugh from the games yet), tongue-in-cheek, passive, and thematically meaningless, and who better than to do that than the guys best known for Happy Tree Friends of all things?

And the hype and expectation that everything would be lollipops and rainbows once they were brought on board backfired tremendously. Pontaff's only real claim to fame is that they can write entertaining characters, although that quality is both inclusive to previous games and inconsistent between their scripts, and for fuck's sake no, not even Eggman is unscathed from it. Otherwise, we're getting stories where very little happens within the present events to actually give the heroes some struggle or the villains some validity. Lost World was perhaps an attempt to reconcile the best of both worlds, but the slapdash approach means it's littered with bad pacing, ambiguous staging, underdeveloped character motivations, convenience at the expense of common sense, and trite and infuriating moral explorations. It is honestly bad. Now here we are having to constantly back peddle and clarify just how much damage they've really done. "Well guys, it's not all their fault!" people say. Does it honestly matter? Whatever amount of blame they actually have to answer for belies the point that they were given actual fucking money to fix shit and they simply did not, and a lot of that specifically has to do with their scripting.

Do they deserve actual hate? No. Do they deserve death threats and harassment? Of course not. But when Sega promises the world and when the community hypes up those promises with the shitty veneer of "See, I told you so!", don't expect the people you're talking to to restrain from hyperbole and frustration when the whole project ends up being nowhere near as perfect as was promised.

[Kuzu]

Yea, I don't think the backlash against them would be as severe if not for Sega blatantly marketing that their presence as "Hey, remember all of that stuff that you complained about? Well we're gonna get rid of ALL OF IT and bring in these new guys to remind you how FUN Sonic is?...please believe us"  So naturally expectations were raised and some were met while others weren't. 

 

So now we're back to square fucking one and arguing about which direction is good for the series. Good fucking job Sega.

[D.H]

When I see the stories of the Pontaff games, I don't see any action, or any adventure, or any of the jokes having wit. I just see dumb joke, after dumb joke, while being told why the jokes are funny.

And the few times they do try and add something to the stories beyond jokes, it either:

A: Doesn't matter, because the next scene is everyone cracking jokes, and nothing being taken seriously. Or B: They horribly botch it, like the Sonic & Tails "drama" in Lost World.

I don't want the "edgy" storytelling Shadow and 06 had, but I do want a good mix of humor and action in Sonic stories. And I don't get that with Pontaff.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

Because nothing says fun and quality like taking Knuckles, a character well known for a being a no nonsense gruff protector of the master emerald and rival to Sonic into a idiot who only cares about being a piece of meat apparently. And no, considering the only other appearance outside of Shattered Crystal was turning him into the unfunny goofball comic relief of Lost World, that isn't much better.