Pontaff Retrospective: What's Up with all the Hate?

[Wraith]

14 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

The problem with this team-up being toted as some huge thing is that it is inherently the reason why Tails gets so angry at Sonic in the first place, which is one of the biggest points of contention people have with the plot. There being precedent of the these characters working together for mutual benefit is partly the reason why Tails flipping out makes little sense.

I thought people being mad about  Tails flipping out had to do with Sonic "trusting Eggman more than him!!" which just flat out didn't make sense in the context of what they were trying to do nor did it fit Tails at all. I didn't think whether Eggman worked with them beforehand or not had anything to do with that. It was just Tails foregoing common sense for the sake of creating a conflict.

3 minutes ago, DBZHedgy said:

But you're point was that no one complained about those, or that they complained about it a whole less than this.

People complain about those all the time. Especially the Blaze one because it's 06 lol. I can tell you that that complaint is waaaaaaaaaay more prominent than any complaints towards pontac and graff

 

 You got me on the Blaze one, but not so much the others. People didn't really dwell on those because it lead to more interesting things happening as a result so it could be forgiven. 

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

7 minutes ago, DBZHedgy said:

People complain about those all the time. Especially the Blaze one because it's 06 lol. I can tell you that that complaint is waaaaaaaaaay more prominent than any complaints towards pontac and graff

It's not because "it Sonic 06!1!!! LOLLL". but it's because of how she was presented in that game. I mean I'm not a Blaze fan at all, but they literally made her an accessory to Silver. He's the only one she talks to, never acknowledges any other characters nor does anyone outside of Silver even acknowledge her. Also her backstory is a princess who can hold her own was thrown out the window. 

If this happened in Sonic Adventure 2 or Sonic Rush or any other game, we would still be complaining about it. It's bad writing.

[DBZHedgy]

1 minute ago, Mikyeong said:

It's not because "it Sonic 06!1!!! LOLLL". but it's because of how she was presented in that game. I mean I'm not a Blaze fan at all, but they literally made her an accessory to Silver. He's the only one she talks to, never acknowledges any other characters nor does anyone outside of Silver even acknowledge her. Also her backstory is a princess who can hold her own was thrown out the window. 

If this happened in Sonic Adventure 2 or Sonic Rush or any other game, we would still be complaining about it. It's bad writing.

that's what I was saying...

it's 06

as in, it's known for having bad writing and thus is constantly noted for having numerous writing flaws :V

[Nepenthe]

2 minutes ago, Wraith said:

I thought people being mad about  Tails flipping out had to do with Sonic "trusting Eggman more than him!!" which just flat out didn't make sense in the context of what they were trying to do nor did it fit Tails at all. I didn't think whether Eggman worked with them beforehand or not had anything to do with that. It was just Tails foregoing common sense for the sake of creating a conflict.

The whole "trust" bit is naff, but its naff-ness is compounded on by the fact that they have indeed worked together before. It's like, if me and my best friend have worked together in the past with Person C, even just once, and then we team up again and suddenly my best friend is making these accusations that I trust Person C more than them, the first thing I would bring up is, "Why didn't you bring this up the first two times we did this, you insecure cunt?" Indeed, Sonic defending himself with that bit would have made the argument a hell of a lot more interesting, because it would have forced Tails to justify the difference which could have brought the plot point out of the gutter.

[Kuzu]

5 minutes ago, Mikyeong said:

It's not because "it Sonic 06!1!!! LOLLL". but it's because of how she was presented in that game. I mean I'm not a Blaze fan at all, but they literally made her an accessory to Silver. He's the only one she talks to, never acknowledges any other characters nor does anyone outside of Silver even acknowledge her. Also her backstory is a princess who can hold her own was thrown out the window. 

If this happened in Sonic Adventure 2 or Sonic Rush or any other game, we would still be complaining about it. It's bad writing.

No shit its bad writing, ya know the same writing that's constantly ridiculed..because its bad writing.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

Just now, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

No shit its bad writing, ya know the same writing that's constantly ridiculed..because its bad writing.

Of course, I may be a fan of P&G's work but I will not argue that they have done some bad writing before (Sonic Colors)

[Enesephus]

1 minute ago, Mikyeong said:

Of course, I may be a fan of P&G's work but I will not argue that they have done some bad writing before (Sonic Colors)

I dunno, even in that game, they did a great job with Sonic and Tails' interaction (which was literally the best it had been in years), and Eggman's PA announcements were hilarious.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

1 minute ago, Hyper Enesephus said:

I dunno, even in that game, they did a great job with Sonic and Tails' interaction (which was literally the best it had been in years), and Eggman's PA announcements were hilarious.

I do agree, but I do think Lost World was better when it came to character interactions. 

[Kuzu]

See, I'm starting to notice this trend of any defense of Pontac and Graff's writing is supported by pointing out bad writing prior in the series. As if its ok that Pontac and graff's writing isn't perfect, because "Hey, the series never was good writing wise, so why does it matter now". And that seems to be an accepted notion in this fanbase. So...I don't agree with that. Bad writing is still bad writing no matter how much of the series has been plagued by it.

I'm just kinda tired of people trying to deflect any criticism of the series shortcomings by pointing out other shortcomings. Its like what's accomplished with that? If something is bad, it should be called out as such, it shouldn't matter if it what came before it was worse. There should be certain standards to be met at the very least :\

[Enesephus]

1 minute ago, Mikyeong said:

I do agree, but I do think Lost World was better when it came to character interactions. 

I feel like, with a lot of things in that game, they definitely had something interesting going with the character interactions, they just didn't use it to its full potential. Amy and Knuckles were barely in the game, there wasn't as much interaction amongst the Deadly Six as I'd have liked, etc.

Colors was more of a "back-to-basics" approach than Lost World (which was trying to be more ambitious), and I felt it did that pretty well with its character interactions by keeping the focus on Sonic and Tails, and making their interaction as great as it could be in a "back-to-basics" story.

[Dr. Detective]

1 hour ago, Mikyeong said:

I do agree, but I do think Lost World was better when it came to character interactions. 

Taken out of context with the constructed narrative, I like their character interactions. When you put it together for a cohesive story it all falls apart at the seams.
 

Of course, even then, individual scenes needed to be tightened up when it came to dialogue that carried a particular quirk they were trying to get out about the character too far and what not. Something that didn't push too hard and kept it relatively quick. The Boom TV series does something closer to that when it came to the way the two of them spoke to one another. Although, there are different problems all together when I switch mediums like that.

 

[shdowhunt60]

Like I said, the only reason why their interactions work at all is because they turned Sonic and Tails into their self-inserts, not because they can actually write Sonic and Tails.

[Diogenes]

15 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

See, I'm starting to notice this trend of any defense of Pontac and Graff's writing is supported by pointing out bad writing prior in the series. As if its ok that Pontac and graff's writing isn't perfect, because "Hey, the series never was good writing wise, so why does it matter now". And that seems to be an accepted notion in this fanbase. So...I don't agree with that. Bad writing is still bad writing no matter how much of the series has been plagued by it.

I'm just kinda tired of people trying to deflect any criticism of the series shortcomings by pointing out other shortcomings. Its like what's accomplished with that? If something is bad, it should be called out as such, it shouldn't matter if it what came before it was worse. There should be certain standards to be met at the very least :\

It's because no one thinks that their writing is perfect, but the hate that gets piled on them is disproportionate to their writing's flaws, compared to what's given to other games/writers in the series.

And it is actually ok that the writing isn't perfect because being perfect is a fake idea.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

2 minutes ago, shdowhunt60 said:

Like I said, the only reason why their interactions work at all is because they turned Sonic and Tails into their self-inserts, not because they can actually write Sonic and Tails.

No, that haven't. It's just made more human the interactions

[shdowhunt60]

4 minutes ago, Mikyeong said:

No, that haven't. It's just made more human the interactions

Which is very easy to do when you're effectively writing yourself. Anybody with no skill can do that.

[Enesephus]

4 minutes ago, shdowhunt60 said:

Like I said, the only reason why their interactions work at all is because they turned Sonic and Tails into their self-inserts, not because they can actually write Sonic and Tails.

How the heck were Sonic and Tails "self-inserts" in Lost World?! That literally makes zero sense. I swear, I often see the term "self-insert" just thrown around on the internet when someone doesn't like the writing of a character or characters. Just because you don't like the way a character is written doesn't make said character a "self-insert."

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

3 minutes ago, shdowhunt60 said:

Which is very easy to do when you're effectively writing yourself. Anybody with no skill can do that.

*points to most mary-sue self insertXcanon character fanfiction*...... nope. 

You do need to have skill to effectivty do a good self insert into a story. Trust me.

[shdowhunt60]

4 minutes ago, Hyper Enesephus said:

How the heck were Sonic and Tails "self-inserts" in Lost World?! That literally makes zero sense. I swear, I often see the term "self-insert" just thrown around on the internet when someone doesn't like the writing of a character or characters. Just because you don't like the way a character is written doesn't make said character a "self-insert."

Oh please, the bulk of their interactions is "Hey Pontac, I came up with this really funny joke!" "Wow Graff, that joke is really funny!" "Yeah, I know, isn't Eggman so incredibly lame?" "I agree, Eggman is incredibly lame" "Hahah, you're so funny Pontac!" "You too Graff" "Hey, isn't there supposed to be a plot?" "Oh, yeah, I guess there is. Who cares? This is incredibly boring and lame" "Yeah, like Eggman!" "LOL!"

Granted, I'm being satirical here, but that's the majority of the time how Sonic and Tails interact. And Lost World is an example of what happens when Pontac and Graff realized that they are writing characters that aren't themselves, and they actually need to DO something with them. The fact that the writing is so incredibly awkward is a pretty damn clear demonstration that they're out of their element.

[Dr. Detective]

I'll say that I admire the attempt more then the execution. The writing, as a whole, I consider pretty bad but the feeling behind the interaction between the two of them is something that's improved relatively well. That's part of why it's so frustrating that they crash and burn as hard as they do. There's never more frustrating a feeling then "You were on the right track but you derailed and fell off a cliff."

It really does suck because Eggman especially, when it comes to dialogue, is written phenomenally well in Lost World. Trying to make a cohesive narrative out of what he says and does fails way harder then the success they've garnered from those quotes though. Add on to the fact that they stretch out they have to say too often and don't provide enough context for the things that actually do get brought up, they end up coming off as though they're a well oiled machine that's missing a lot of really essential parts.

It's still not my place to make excuses for them though. They've improved since Colors when it comes to a few things but they fell back on a few others. Recognizing that Tails' personality has stepped up does nothing for me when the personality he has reminds me of a younger Sonic on one end and a little shit with his head rammed up his ass on the other. Not helping is the fact that I consider Boom Tails to be the perfect version of what they should be going for.

 

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

Actually that interaction is not exclusive to Pontac and Graff. Why would you think that's how they are in real life?

[Enesephus]

2 minutes ago, shdowhunt60 said:

Oh please, the bulk of their interactions is "Hey Pontac, I came up with this really funny joke!" "Wow Graff, that joke is really funny!" "Yeah, I know, isn't Eggman so incredibly lame?" "I agree, Eggman is incredibly lame" "Hahah, you're so funny Pontac!" "You too Graff" "Hey, isn't there supposed to be a plot?" "Oh, yeah, I guess there is. Who cares? This is incredibly boring and lame" "Yeah, like Eggman!" "LOL!"

Granted, I'm being satirical here, but that's the majority of the time how Sonic and Tails interact. And Lost World is an example of what happens when Pontac and Graff realized that they are writing characters that aren't themselves, and they actually need to DO something with them. The fact that the writing is so incredibly awkward is a pretty damn clear demonstration that they're out of their element.

That's still not actually "self-insert" writing, and if you're being "satirical," you're not doing a good job of it.

[shdowhunt60]

4 minutes ago, Hyper Enesephus said:

That's still not actually "self-insert" writing, and if you're being "satirical," you're not doing a good job of it.

That is literally Sonic and Tails the over whelming majority of the time in both Colors and ESPECIALLY Shattered Crystal. This isn't me being mad at something I don't like, this is legitimately bad writing. 

[Enesephus]

5 minutes ago, shdowhunt60 said:

That is literally Sonic and Tails the over whelming majority of the time in both Colors and ESPECIALLY Shattered Crystal. This isn't me being mad at something I don't like, this is legitimately bad writing. 

I'm just saying, if you want to criticize something for having bad writing, call it bad writing. Don't throw terms like "self-insert" around where they're not applicable, or no one will take you seriously.

[Kuzu]

23 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

It's because no one thinks that their writing is perfect, but the hate that gets piled on them is disproportionate to their writing's flaws, compared to what's given to other games/writers in the series.

And it is actually ok that the writing isn't perfect because being perfect is a fake idea.

Well hey, surprise fucking surprise. This isn't exclusive to Pontac and Graff :V Shadow still gets shit for being "Ow the Edge", 06 is still ridiculed for being worse than Satan itself. Almost every criticism directed towards this series is blown out of proportion by a significant portion of the vocal minority. So I don't see a point in trying to deflect things like this. 

Its not like people have not made legitimate, well written criticisms of Pontac or Graff's writing and the same is true for the series writing in general. I could write a literal essay on why this series` writing is horrible, but what purpose would it serve beyond just ranting? The reason Pontac and Graff seemingly get it more? Because they're the CURRENT, as in presently happening within this time plane, writers and are therefore partially responsible for where the series is going. 

Bringing up the series` past cases of bad writing is a moot point because, what's being said that hasn't been said already? 06 is almost a decade old, anything that was there to say about it has been said. The writers were fired for fuck's sake, it doesn't get much more done that. But for some reason, nobody wants to move on from it as we're still using it as a point of defense for Pontac and Graff :\

 

And ya know what the ultimate irony is, they are not nowhere near as hated as you think they are. There are just as many defenders in this thread of their writing as opposition, the series has been constantly hailed as "Being back" when Sonic Colors came out and people still praise it over prior games. So hey, I'm sorry for raining on your parade but I'm not going to keep quiet on something I feel strongly about just because its popular.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

Except, now Sonic Colors is looked at as a mediocre game. People thought it was brought back THEN because they wanted a more lighthearted story. It's not a popular opinion to enjoy P/G's writing. It was in the past but now it's in the minority.