Pontaff Retrospective: What's Up with all the Hate?

[FriendBot]

I don't mind Tails having a bit of sass to him and even if it wasn't all that clear (though that seems to be a big issue in Lost World IMO), Tails feeling a bit insecure and lashing out his insecurities at Sonic, brings some sort of humanity in him despite him being a very young tech wiz. Though I feel it is important to make sure Tails is still a nice guy but pre-Pontaff, he was SOOOOOO BORING!

I mean yeah, in the Adventures he was pretty cool. Calling the shots in Adventure 2 and learning that he doesn't need Sonic to save the day in Adventure 1, those are valuable traits and feats in Tails but if he feels that he could do things on his own, it feels kinda natural for Tails to backtalk Sonic at times. It can be quite amusing to see Tails joke about the quirks Sonic has, like how he finds Sonic talking to robots he destroy weird and calls him out on it. It's stuff like that you can tell that the two have been friends for a HUGE time and Tails has grown up quite a bit since the Adventure days.

 

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

I found both Tails AND Knuckles to be boring Pre-Pontaff to be honest. Especially Knuckles. I prefer his Boom incarnation by a long shot. I mean he's kinda like a more alert Big the Cat. He's simple minded but he doesn't care! 

[Chris Knopps]

Just now, Mikyeong said:

I found both Tails AND Knuckles to be boring Pre-Pontaff to be honest. Especially Knuckles. I prefer his Boom incarnation by a long shot. I mean he's kinda like a more alert Big the Cat. He's simple minded but he doesn't care! 

Ehhhh...

Kind of holding a bomb out there bringing up BOOM Knuckles aren't you? Just a forewarning on that topic... Yeesh, you wanna talk cats and dogs.

[E-122-Psi]

I liked Knuckles in his Sonic X form, which was like in Adventure 1/2 but more comically short tempered and egotistical (even if they overdid his Butt Monkey role at times). Kinda a good compromise.

I feel Tails works better now because, even in the more comedic setup, he feels like he has more foibles and quirks. He's more awkward and temperamental at times, and more endearing bits of dialogue and characterisation come out of that than before, when he usually just expositioned it.

People point out the Cubot scene and how it seemed derivative, but I feel like maybe that was the point. It was just a small bit of character and it did admittedly add a decent flaw. While Sonic is reckless and rushes into things, Tails is too fixated on his inventions to notice details himself. It could have used more development (again Boom did that) but it was neat to put it in and it gave the two even more chemistry by showing both had natural flaws and blind spots rather than just Sonic with Tails as his eternal straight man.

[FriendBot]

Just now, Mikyeong said:

I found both Tails AND Knuckles to be boring Pre-Pontaff to be honest. Especially Knuckles. I prefer his Boom incarnation by a long shot. I mean he's kinda like a more alert Big the Cat. He's simple minded but he doesn't care! 

Knuckles was a character that I just can't seem to really like in the main games outside his debut. Adventure 1 had something going for ol' Knux but it got dropped by Adventure 2.

The Current Archie Knuckles is what I want out of Main Series Knuckles, personally. He has a bit of a friendly rivalry similar to 3&K but he still has his duties and responsibilities, but he has ambitions too! I never felt that Main Series Knuckles had any ambitions, which made him super boring for me.

 

[E-122-Psi]

As said before I feel Sonic X Knuckles was the best mix of the more serious Knuckles with some sort of role and ambitions (eg. guarding the Master Emerald) and being a comedic goofball. Sometimes the two merged as well, eg. his more obsessive Daffy Duck-esque rivalry with Sonic. The only thing I didn't like about X Knuckles was some of his chemistry with the other characters, in that it was very little outside him being a laughing stock or belittled for not thinking like the rest of the team, sometimes to an almost Meg Griffin level cruelty (even Cream didn't like him). Even Boom Knuckles isn't a butt monkey in the vein of being outright bullied by his comrades.

[FriendBot]

1 minute ago, E-122-Psi said:

As said before I feel Sonic X Knuckles was the best mix of the more serious Knuckles with some sort of role and ambitions (eg. guarding the Master Emerald) and being a comedic goofball. Sometimes the two merged as well, eg. his more obsessive Daffy Duck-esque rivalry with Sonic.

It's been a while since I've watched Sonic X (might watch it again for the third time after dying from Underground, only to be revived from the OVA) but if that's the case then what's the difference between X and Current Archie Knuckles? Cause they sound the same to me. :/

[Nepenthe]

38 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

There may not have been a clear on-screen trigger, but it's not hard to figure out what he's feeling and why he feels it. It could have been better written, but I can't see it as Tails not being written to be human.

This isn't an argument for human-esque writing. You are literally describing pretty much every Sonic game but I don't see you ever making arguments that the characters were written in as good a manner as in LW beforehand in games like 06 or ShtH. 

38 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

There's two cutscenes with them between Zeti rebellion and teaming up, and Eggman doesn't explain why he's needed until the second one. That's not exactly an excessive amount of hesitation.

When Eggman's at first just following them, Sonic tells him to piss off, he's not needed, which is reasonable because Eggman is an evil dick. When Eggman explains why he's needed, Sonic goes along with it reluctantly, because he now has a reason that Eggman might be needed in spite of him being an evil dick.

And Tails goes along with it too by way of not actually protesting against it in the cut scene that matters. And there's no indication in either scene that Sonic suddenly doubts Tails' abilities. So why the fuck is he suddenly so bitchy towards Sonic? Is it to throw in some drama for drama's sake? Methinks it is!

38 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Tails doesn't have reason to develop a grudge until they've teamed up, which doesn't happen until the very tail end of the scene, and next time we see them it's the flipout scene. What the story needs is another scene between them, or extensions of those two or something. If you're saying there's some time within these scenes for him to start his grudge...I don't see it.

He could have protested in the scene where Sonic actually accepted it (which would've been weird because Sonic doesn't blindly go along with it. He accepts it as some necessary team-up, which doesn't say anything on his feelings about the matter nor of his feelings on Tails competence. But whatever; something would've been better than nothing.) And it wouldn't have taken hours of exposition either. Just--

Quote

Tails: You're really going to trust Eggman?

Sonic: It's his machine. He's our best bet for fixing it.

There, I just put in a reasonable basis for conflict. Can I get some of that Sonic money now?

38 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Again, they should've built up to it, I'm not denying that. But the only way I can see Tails' actions as not being understandably human is if you ignore the characters existing offscreen, and that Tails went from uncomfortable acceptance to rage when he was teleported into Eggman's base and the scene started.

Pointing to what may have happened off-screen is literally the worst basis for trying to argue for the quality of the writing that exists.

38 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

I said emoting because that's something you claimed they didn't do.

I said they don't emote like real people, not that they don't emote at all. But again, merely emoting isn't an argument for quality writing. Emotions must reasonably follow what the narrative has established, otherwise you end up with narm, cringe, annoyance, or melodrama. I don't feel like Lost World accomplishes this, and thus a lot of the proceedings are either annoying or melodramatic. I personally don't relate to Sonic or Tails in any notable manner, and I don't care how angry or upset they are in the game.

[E-122-Psi]

X seems a little more on the comedic side than Archie Knuckles and tends to make a fool of himself more often by acting egomaniacal or bad tempered. He tends to clash with the other heroes more often as well (sometimes for differing motives, or sometimes for, as mentioned, butt monkey comedy).

X also seemed to have more a green eyed monster outlook towards Sonic, which gave their rivalry more of a drive. Archie Knuckles has the rivalry, but I don't think he's ever yearned to be respected or popular as Sonic.

I suppose he's kinda Archie Knuckles if you mix a bit of the Bugs vs Daffy rivalry in there.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

7 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

And there's no indication in either scene that Sonic suddenly doubts Tails' abilities. So why the fuck is he suddenly so bitchy towards Sonic? Is it to throw in some drama for drama's sake? Methinks it is!

To be honest, the idea of trusting Eggman even though he's the enemy is pretty much why Tails was upset. Sonic needs A genius to shut down that machine, not just Eggman's genius. But he felt he needed Eggman's genius because it's HIS machine. Tails has always been the designated genius for Sonic to go to, and to see him trust someone else with a mission he could have easily done.... well I do want to say (though I hate the way that there was no build up to it) that I understand why he snapped his twig. 

I see it this way: If I was Tails and I saw that Sonic trusted our SWORN ENEMY over me when I have always been the go to person to trust for these things on top of the fact that my genius matches his, then I would have gotten angry, jealous and went to the conclusion that Sonic didn't trust me. 

[shdowhunt60]

6 minutes ago, Mikyeong said:

I see it this way: If I was Tails and I saw that Sonic trusted our SWORN ENEMY over me 

Except this never happened.

[Nepenthe]

2 minutes ago, Mikyeong said:

To be honest, the idea of trusting Eggman even though he's the enemy is pretty much why Tails was upset. Sonic needs A genius to shut down that machine, not just Eggman's genius. Tails has always been the designated genius for Sonic to go to, and to see him trust someone else with a mission he could have easily done.... well I do want to say (though I hate the way that there was no build up to it) that I understand why he snapped his twig. 

I see it this way: If I was Tails and I saw that Sonic trusted our SWORN ENEMY over me when I have always been the go to person to trust for these things on top of the fact that my genius matches his, then I would have gotten angry, jealous and went to the conclusion that Sonic didn't trust me. 

He didn't trust Eggman over Tails. He trusted them all to work together as a team of equals which is why he stopped the fight. There is literally not a single verbal, physical, or implied feeling on Sonic's part that he believes that Tails is just completely fucking incompetent and can't do it. It's just that Eggman has a part to play in the whole plan of getting to the machine and destroying it...which again he's helped out with before regardless of being their "sworn enemy." 

 

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

2 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

He didn't trust Eggman over Tails. He trusted them all to work together as a team of equals which is why he stopped the fight. There is literally not a single verbal, physical, or implied feeling on Sonic's part that he believes that Tails is just completely fucking incompetent and can't do it. It's just that Eggman has a part to play in the whole plan of getting to the machine and destroying it...which again he's helped out with before regardless of being their "sworn enemy." 

Sonic did say "I'm sorry for doubting you". Why would he apologise for that if he trusted Tails?

[Diogenes]

Nepenthe I've agreed repeatedly that there are issues with how that section (and others) of the story are handled, there's no point in me continuing this.

[shdowhunt60]

Just now, Mikyeong said:

Sonic did say "I'm sorry for doubting you". Why would he apologise for that if he trusted Tails?

Except again: This never happens. There is never a point where Sonic actually not only doubted Tails, but also expressed that he trusted Eggman more. 

What's happening here is that the story is saying bullshit. It's telling us a thing happened, but it never did.

[FriendBot]

Can't we just agree that Lost World's story would've been MUCH better if the cutscenes went on longer and gone into more detail and stuff. Atleast that's what I feel what the story could've greatly benefited from.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

Just now, True Detective Soni said:

Can't we just agree that Lost World's story would've been MUCH better if the cutscenes went on longer and gone into more detail and stuff. Atleast that's what I feel what the story could've greatly benefited from.

Exactly. No one is saying the story is perfect and we all agree it needs build up. 

[shdowhunt60]

It needs a lot of work. It really does. I think that, frankly, it needs a lot of rewriting. Even if we gave an apt justification for Tails's outrage, the narrative still comes off as incredibly one-sided against Sonic. And that's just not fair to Sonic.

[Azzy]

1 minute ago, True Detective Soni said:

Can't we just agree that Lost World's story would've been MUCH better if the cutscenes went on longer and gone into more detail and stuff. Atleast that's what I feel what the story could've greatly benefited from.

That's one way of saying the writers did a poor job.
 

[Kuzu]

Ya know what, I think I find it so hard to give a shit about the series anymore is because we've gotten to a point where we can't even pin down solid traits for the cast. So like, we're just stuck with characterization based on vague descriptions of them. "Hey, Knuckles is the strong guy, let's bulk him up and lampshade how ditzy he is" So its like, the characters aren't even themselves anymore they're just what the writers want them to be in service to the plot. 

So, hypothetically speaking, if the writers wanted to make a joke about Shakespeare then Sonic would probably be able to recite lines from his plays, even if Shakespeare doesn't actually exist in-universe. The characters and universe morph in service to the joke. 

And I guess that's good for some people, because they're probably so drained from the series that the only enjoyment they can get anymore is when Sonic is making self-depreciating humor because that's how they personally feel about the series, so it helps them live vicariously. "hey, Sonic sucks and they're making fun of that, I feel better now"  and ya know what, there's nothing with that and I'm glad the series at least has the sound of mind to realize how much its fucked up.

 

Now I'm going to talk about how I, feel about this. Now me personally, I have nothing against how the series is being handled anymore, I came to terms with it. This is what people want out of Sonic, so I just let it rock and focus on other series` that I like. But  the reason I'm not really interested in Sonic (well, the games anyway, the comics fucking rule. Plz release the Eggman arc, I gave you $40 ;_;) is because the series stopped being...well, Sonic. Now the next thought will probably be "Well nobody knows what Sonic is man, gawd" and yea, that's my problem lol. The Sonic that I grew attached to no longer exists (in the games). Now other people are probably thinking "Man, you're just a nostalgiafag who can't realize how bad things were back then" and ya know what, that's probably true but I don't really care lol. The Sonic I grew up with was the one from 1991 until 2009, and yea things got bad..really bad...like horrifically, fucking deadly bad. But you know what, I still got some modicum of enjoyment out of the series despite it all. Yea, we had "THE REAL SUPER POWER OF TEAMWORK" "Ow the Edge" and "bestiality", but it was still Sonic at the end of the day. I still have fond memories of things like Tails` stand against Eggman in SA1, Sonic & Shadow's final fight in SA2, and Sonic's everything in Black Knight. Was it perfect? No, but it didn't really have to be, because I still enjoyed those moments despite the flaws.

So then 2010 comes and the debut of Pontac and Graff. Suddenly they're the new hotness and people are so burnt from 06 and Unleashed, they're quick to tout them as the second coming of Jesus for the series. Admittedly, I was one of those people because Colors felt like a breath of fresh air. There's a lot more levity going around, which I appreciated. Then it dawned on me...I didn't find any of the humor funny, well most of it anyway. I chuckled at a few lines here and there, but at the same I was left thinking "Am I supposed to be laughing at this?" because I knew damn well they were trying to get me to laugh. So then Generations comes around and nothing fucking happens throughout the game and I'm left wondering why did I feel so empty after it all. Then Lost World comes and tries to god and back to tell a meaningful story and it just felt...artificial as fuck. People were swearing "BEST SONIC STORY EVER" and I'm like "really? huh...ok" 

It was at this point, and through many...many, many debates on the internet about their writing...I didn't really care for their interpretations of the characters. They were definitely a lot more vibrant, emotive, etc etc but it all felt so forced to me. I couldn't really explain why I felt this way when most people were singing their praises. I discovered that the reason is mostly, the characters stopped being themselves and became mouthpieces, mouthpieces that constantly have to reference the oddities around them, but not actually do anything engaging or worth caring about. It was like after the initial laughs wore off, I realized that nothing was actually happening within the story to make me give a damn. Why should I care about this conflict if its just one big joke?

So if I had to pin my reasons for not caring about Pontac or Graff's writing; they're more interested in telling a comedy routine than an engaging and interesting Action-Adventure story (ya know, the genre that Sonic is) and when they try to tell an Action-Adventure story, you can clearly tell its not their forte. Contradicting characterizations, stupid actions to move the plot along, etc. Their type of writing just does not mix with what the series had already established beforehand, it feels like an entirely different set of characters at this point than the ones we've known forever. And yea, the issues I described aren't new to the series and have been around since forever, but fuck, it still felt like Sonic at the very least. I feel like I would be a lot more receptive to their writing if some people from Sonic Team would just work alongside them and be like "No, Sonic wouldn't say something like this." and just guide them. Their writing isn't terrible, but they're not writing Sonic, they're writing their versions of Sonic. 

 

So you're probably not going to read anything of this, so I'll give a Tl;DR: Sonic Team need to work with Pontac & Graff in order to properly make a coherent narrative with characters that actually act like the characters as we knew them, and not the latter's version. There also needs to be some fucking quality control on how the plot plays out, because for some fucking reason, every Sonic seems to have some glaring ass flaws that prevent it from being decent. 

 

So yea.....I ranted...woot.

[FriendBot]

Just now, Azzy said:

That's one way of saying the writers did a poor job.
 

...Didn't Pontac said that he and Graff had to rush the story during Roger's interview?

So I don't like to use that statement.

[Nepenthe]

20 minutes ago, Mikyeong said:

Sonic did say "I'm sorry for doubting you". Why would he apologise for that if he trusted Tails?

Because the writing is dumb and was intent on dragging Sonic through the mud, that's why. Tails didn't deserve an apology.

 

[Bowbowis]

Honestly I think that Sonic Battle deserves some more recognition for its portrayal of Tails, which is, as far as I'm concerned, probably the best portrayal of a post Adventure Tails to date. He retains the greater degree of confidence and independence he gained from development in Adventure, as shown when specifically requests that Sonic not accompany him when he takes Emerl to the central lab, and by standing up to Shadow when the latter tries to destroy Emerl. Despite that though he's has foibles and his insecurities are still present, he's clearly nervous at the prospect of going up against more experienced fighters like Shadow and Rouge without any real backup (Emerl still being all but useless at that point in the story) and is still not particularly assertive. Finally it's one of the few games where I can actually buy that Tails is supposed to be a kid, which is something that very few games have actually been able to nail down, he shows a lot of energy and enthusiasm, he's rather easily discouraged (seriously his "sad" portrait is used so frequently it may as well be his default) but is also resilient and bounces back quickly, and despite the game really playing up his smarts his naivety and inexperience are still able to shine through.

Speaking of those portraits they also really help to sell the characterization, I mean just look at them!

[Adamabba]

Sonic Battle deserves more recognition for it's characterization of everybody. The writing in Sonic Battle is exemplary! The characters were really likable and understandably human, and the comedy was outright hilarious at times. The writing is really the main reason I would bother to keep playing through the very repetitive gameplay.

Speaking of which, does anyone know who wrote the story for that game?

[StaticMania]

Just now, Adamabba said:

Sonic Battle deserves more recognition for it's characterization of "everybody". The writing in Sonic Battle is exemplary! 

It's characterization of everyone except for Amy, Flanderization is at it's worst here with her.