Official Sonic 2006 topic

[VO.SUPER]

Aside from the bestiality misunderstanding, it's a pretty good ending to a review.

Still, I don't think SEGA admitting the game exists is a bad thing. I honestly think it makes them the better guys for admitting that they made their mistake, and just ignoring it isn't learning from it.

If anything people are not hard enough.

Sonic 06 was and will always will be an embarassment to SEGA and Sonic Team. It's embarassing for fans of Sonic games. Especially, as I consider S3&K to be one of the greatest 2d games ever made, and at the other end of the spectrum we have Sonic 06, the worst game I have ever played. Soundtrack aside, there are no redeeming qualities.

Any section of Sonic's levels without the mach speed was usually harmless. Wave Ocean was a harmless first level, Dusty Desert was an interesting idea, Crisis City could have been more interesting, White Acropolis desperately needed to fix its snowboarding section, Molten Core was interesting in its linearity. Radical Train looked like a good idea. Aquatic Base looked decent too.

I just don't feel the hatred everyone else has. I pity the developers for shooting too big, when they knew they had such a limited time frame. I blame them for that, and I blame the fans for initially accepting the Adventure style of gameplay that this game based itself on. I think all sides had something bad to contribute.

That's the thing. This fanbase was nearly ruined because of this game, and the credibility of Sonic was nearly ruined as well, so I understand you guys have a reason to hate this game to the core, but from an almost third party perspective, I can't see this game with as much hatred as you all.

Edited November 18, 2012 by VisionaryBlur

[Emmett L. Brown]

It's just me . It was still a Sonic game in my eyes.

You can't jump into enemies.

You can't jump into enemies.

You can jump...and Sonic will roll into a ball...but if you touch an enemy...while rolled into a ball...YOU LOSE RINGS!

[Scar]

People need to continue to not forgive Sonic 06. People need to continue to be hard on the game. We need to keep reminding SEGA of the kind of abomination they are capable of producing, so they never, ever release something like it again.

[Solkia]

Clement is seriously the biggest baby I've seen when it comes to this game.

Yeah the game is shit, we already know. Get out of the fetal position and just get to Unleashed already.

[Yoko/葉子]

You can't jump into enemies.

You can't jump into enemies.

You can jump...and Sonic will roll into a ball...but if you touch an enemy...while rolled into a ball...YOU LOSE RINGS!

Never happened to me

[Scar]

Never happened to me

Did you ever try to just jump into enemies?

This ALWAYS happens, its coded into the game.

[Diogenes]

Any section of Sonic's levels without the mach speed was usually harmless.

Nothing about '06 is harmless. The game is broken at every level; just moving around is fucked up. The water sliding is fucked up, the wall running is fucked up, the combat is fucked up, the boarding is fucked up, the quicksand is fucked up, the scripting is fucked up...I'd go on, but I'd be naming literally everything in the game.

Molten Core was interesting in its linearity.

interesting in its linearity

what the fuck does that even mean

Edited November 18, 2012 by hella jeff

[Dr. Homem]

interesting in its linearity

what the fuck does that even mean

That it had a good and interesting level design? Just because it's linear doesn't mean it's not interesting.

Not that I necessarily agree Molten Core was like that, of course.

[SilentDoom]

Never happened to me

Then you're lying.

...

Oh god the Sonic 06 cycle is beginning again....I think

Edited November 18, 2012 by SiLeNtDo0m

[Yoko/葉子]

I liked it and no fanbase in the infini-verse is gonna stop me! Mwa ha ha.

[VO.SUPER]

Nothing about '06 is harmless. The game is broken at every level; just moving around is fucked up. The water sliding is fucked up, the wall running is fucked up, the combat is fucked up, the boarding is fucked up, the quicksand is fucked up, the scripting is fucked up...I'd go on, but I'd be naming literally everything in the game.

interesting in its linearity

what the fuck does that even mean

Read what you are writing, you are seething with rage.

Listen. The running is not a game design fault, the water sliding is automatic and factors so little to the game that your point there is moot, the wall running was an interesting idea that was fucked up by poor programming. The boarding is yet another thing that was broken. The quicksand was an interesting gimmick that could have been expanded upon, but either way, how often do you die to it when you've died the first time? Even Jon and Ego managed to live after the first fall, when they've struggled before.

We've already covered the story is fucked up, but I'm talking about certain aspects that are actually ok. And the spots I mentioned aren't that bad, despite your hatred for this game.

--

I don't know what I was doing when I wrote that with molten core. I meant to say it was interesting with the non-linearity of certain sections.

[Scar]

I liked it and no fanbase in the infini-verse is gonna stop me! Mwa ha ha.

Doesn't matter if you like it. The problems exist that is fact, whether or not they bother you is up to you.

Read what you are writing, you are seething with rage.

This is what he normally writes like....

Listen. The running is not a game design fault,

No its a programming fault. But its a fault nonetheless

the water sliding is automatic and factors so little to the game that your point there is moot,

Its automatic, but it can still get you killed, which is a HUGE problem. It also shouldn't be automatic. You can start water sliding in an appropriate section just by walking into it at a slow pace. That shouldn't happen. Its both badly programmed AND badly designed. Sonic Unleashed does this better; fast enough, you can skim across the surface of the water, if not, you sink.

the wall running was an interesting idea that was fucked up by poor programming.

It was also badly designed, but the dodgy programming isn't really an excuse, its still a problem.

The boarding is yet another thing that was broken.

Yes, indeed another thing that was broken.

The quicksand was an interesting gimmick that could have been expanded upon,

Really now? How can you expand upon something that was basically a bottomless pit with a sand-texture painted on it.

but either way, how often do you die to it when you've died the first time?

There are places where the quicksand uses the same texture as sand you can walk on. So yes, I definately died a few times, when I shouldn't have.

We've already covered the story is fucked up, but I'm talking about certain aspects that are actually ok.

There isn't much to be honest.

And the spots I mentioned aren't that bad, despite your hatred for this game.

Aren't that bad? Maybe if isolated, they aren't that bad. Maybe if they were a single dodgy part of an otherwise solidly designed game they wouldn't be that bad. Fact is though, everything is bad in some way or another. The extent of badness is the only variable here.

Heck, even though I love parts of the Soundtrack (and it is a overall decent, varied soundtrack), its still not the best the franchise has seen.

I don't know what I was doing when I wrote that with molten core. I meant to say it was interesting with the non-linearity of certain sections.

Flame Core?

That stage was boring as fuck. It became a massive clusterfuck at some points. The linearity wasn't the problem, it was just badly designed.

Edited November 18, 2012 by Scar

[Dr. Crusher]

Clement is seriously the biggest baby I've seen when it comes to this game.

Yeah the game is shit, we already know. Get out of the fetal position and just get to Unleashed already.

Then you didn't get the point.

Clement is doing almost all of the Sonic games he can do bar any DS ones, so he'd be face-to-face with this game eventually anyway, but on top of that, he couldn't have left it at a standard 10 minute review since it would just be like all the other reviews of the game. This is his personal least favourite game ever, and he wanted to explain every reason he could for why that is, and a standard review wouldn't cut it. He didn't want to just review it, he wanted to dissect it. Thus, he's done to this game what RedLetterMedia did with the Star Wars prequels.

It may be beating a dead horse, and it's fine if long-ass reviews aren't your thing, but he was going to come across this game sooner or later, and he had to let off all his steam with it, so he could then move on to later games with a clear head.

Edited November 18, 2012 by Dr. Crusher

[Diogenes]

Read what you are writing, you are seething with rage.

I'm not half as angry as your size 6 text implies. But seriously, how many fucking times has it been said now, and yet people still think there's anything good in this game?

Listen. The running is not a game design fault,

Well then what is it, that makes just moving around in the game jerky, awkward, and at times almost uncontrollable? This is a huge fuckin' problem that should've been ironed out as soon as they had the most barebones proto-game up and running. That the characters don't even walk well is a failure on par with the worst games ever made.

the water sliding is automatic and factors so little to the game that your point there is moot,

It's a shitty gimmick that's liable to kill you if you do something wrong, and there's basically no way to tell what the wrong thing is. It doesn't matter that it doesn't show up much, it's shitty.

the wall running was an interesting idea that was fucked up by poor programming.

It's not an "interesting idea", it's a core element of Sonic gameplay. It's what makes loops possible (when they aren't just little cutscenes).

The quicksand was an interesting gimmick that could have been expanded upon,

It's a pit that's not a pit if you hold a button. How is that interesting? How can you expand on that?

but either way, how often do you die to it when you've died the first time? Even Jon and Ego managed to live after the first fall, when they've struggled before.

A death trap that's probably never going to kill you after the first time. So it's basically just busywork. Sounds like a pretty shitty gimmick to me.

but I'm talking about certain aspects that are actually ok.

And that's the thing: there aren't any.

[VO.SUPER]

I'm not half as angry as your size 6 text implies. But seriously, how many fucking times has it been said now, and yet people still think there's anything good in this game?

I'm sorry, I couldn't tell by your rabid attempts to always prove me, and anyone else who says otherwise wrong. I may not think this game is good, but I can still see good where you can't.

Well then what is it, that makes just moving around in the game jerky, awkward, and at times almost uncontrollable? This is a huge fuckin' problem that should've been ironed out as soon as they had the most barebones proto-game up and running. That the characters don't even walk well is a failure on par with the worst games ever made.

Yes, but the character having poor control was no game design flaw, it was a planning flaw. The developers made a million character whom this game would range around, and they made this in less than a year. And develop it for two consoles. They did not have the time to iron out everything about the character that they probably wanted to. But that does not mean Sonic's running was poorly designed.

It's a shitty gimmick that's liable to kill you if you do something wrong, and there's basically no way to tell what the wrong thing is. It doesn't matter that it doesn't show up much, it's shitty.

It never has for me, and for any of the blind let's players I've seen deal with this game, so maybe you're overreacting.

It's not an "interesting idea", it's a core element of Sonic gameplay. It's what makes loops possible (when they aren't just little cutscenes).

It's a pit that's not a pit if you hold a button. How is that interesting? How can you expand on that?

Because there is a level to explore. It's a bottomless pit that you can traverse. Secret paths could be built around an idea like this. It also adds a slight risk factor. There are better methods of doing it, but just because there are doesn't mean it's bad. It's bad if it is a frustrating gimmick that often impedes your progress, but guess what, it doesn't. Past the first time, it's just there, and it's easily bypassed with no busywork after the first shot.

A death trap that's probably never going to kill you after the first time. So it's basically just busywork. Sounds like a pretty shitty gimmick to me.

Busywork, ha, busywork he says. It's only busywork because it wasn't implemented well, but that does not mean the idea is bad.

And that's the thing: there aren't any.

To you, because you are being stubborn and you despise this game to your core, but the minority aren't all tainted by this like you were.

[T-Min]

Is this argument even worth having? It doesn't matter what aspects someone thought were "ok", as far as I'm concerned. So long as we all agree that it's a bad game overall so that nothing like this can ever happen again, I don't see the need to bother.

Anyway, that was a brilliant conclusion to a brilliant review from The Great Clement. Though, I wonder if anyone has thrown a fit over the "People who like Sonic 06 are f*cking idiots and you should make fun of them" comment yet, without realizing that it was (probably) said in jest. :U

[Komodin]

Never happened to me

So... what, you never just jumped into enemies?

[VO.SUPER]

Is this argument even worth having? It doesn't matter what aspects someone thought were "ok", as far as I'm concerned. So long as we all agree that it's a bad game overall so that nothing like this can ever happen again, I don't see the need to bother.

It really isn't, but I dug myself into this hole, and I guess I can't get out until one of us says something ending.

I mean, personally I just want to play devil's advocate, but I'm game to back out of an argument I know I won't win, and one which I won't change my mind about.

Aren't that bad? Maybe if isolated, they aren't that bad. Maybe if they were a single dodgy part of an otherwise solidly designed game they wouldn't be that bad. Fact is though, everything is bad in some way or another. The extent of badness is the only variable here.

Heck, even though I love parts of the Soundtrack (and it is a overall decent, varied soundtrack), its still not the best the franchise has seen.

But if they were isolated in a solidly designed game wouldn't that?... Ah well, I'll accept that logic and say it still doesn't bother me.

[Diogenes]

I'm sorry, I couldn't tell by your rabid attempts to always prove me, and anyone else who says otherwise wrong.

You sound...mad.

Yes, but the character having poor control was no game design flaw, it was a planning flaw. The developers made a million character whom this game would range around, and they made this in less than a year. And develop it for two consoles. They did not have the time to iron out everything about the character that they probably wanted to. But that does not mean Sonic's running was poorly designed.

Basic character movement is not something that you should leave until the last minute to "fix". It's something you should get right from the start, so you can build the rest of the game around it (isn't that the excuse they gave for not fixing S4E1 and Generations Classic, even?). And regardless of whether you want to call this a design flaw or a planning flaw, it's still shit, it still pervades every part of the game, and that means there is never a "harmless" part of the game.

It never has for me, and for any of the blind let's players I've seen deal with this game, so maybe you're overreacting.

Oh, so you haven't seen it? So it never happened to you?

I'm obviously just making things up.

Because there is a level to explore. It's a bottomless pit that you can traverse. Secret paths could be built around an idea like this.

It's not really a secret path if it's just sitting there.

There are better methods of doing it, but just because there are doesn't mean it's bad.

No, the fact that it's boring means it's bad.

It's bad if it is a frustrating gimmick that often impedes your progress, but guess what, it doesn't. Past the first time, it's just there, and it's easily bypassed with no busywork after the first shot.

I am just...constantly shocked by this. This belief that if something isn't actively harmful, there's nothing wrong with it. It's a shitty, counterintuitive, boring, worthless gimmick that will get you one cheap death and from then on it's nothing but busywork.

Busywork, ha, busywork he says. It's only busywork because it wasn't implemented well, but that does not mean the idea is bad.

Explain to me how "hold button to not die" is ever going to be a clever game mechanic.

To you, because you are being stubborn and you despise this game to your core, but the minority aren't all tainted by this like you were.

You're defending '06. And don't give me that "well I don't really like it or anything" shit, you are going out of your way to reach for any tiny justification that the game isn't utter shit, and you are wrong every time.

[Xenos]

..Are we still doing the "The game is bad, but the IDEAS were good!" thing?

Because it just doesn't work like that...

I mean, sure an idea can be great but execution is the most important part. And 06, of course, fucking failed at it. It's too late to say "What could have been" because this game should not be dredged up as something good because it had 'potential' and 'good ideas'. Just let them move on to bigger and better things that also have potential and good ideas that are actually put to good use and executed decently.

[Spin Attaxx]

But that does not mean Sonic's running was poorly designed.

Explain how Omega can run faster then Sonic.

One thing I wonder about is how on earth did the series not end up dead and buried by this?! I'm glad Sonic's still running and getting better, but still - this was almost like how Batman and Robin took a well respected franchise, made a mockery of it and ultimately killed it.

As for quicksand, that's pretty much a handwave for "bottomless pit that isn't if you hold a button". At least Mario has the decency to slowly sink into it.

[Stritix]

I don't understand what all the hype is about. A regular guy ranting about a game?

While I agree with all of his points, I don't understand what the fuss is over.

One thing I wonder about is how on earth did the series not end up dead and buried by this?! I'm glad Sonic's still running and getting better, but still - this was almost like how Batman and Robin took a well respected franchise, made a mockery of it and ultimately killed it.

One awful game isn't going to kill a series that had been going for 15 years strong. You are overreacting.

[...]

I don't understand what all the hype is about. A regular guy ranting about a game?

While I agree with all of his points, I don't understand what the fuss is over.

One awful game isn't going to kill a series that had been going for 15 years strong. You are overreacting.

You're acting like there wasn't other mediocre/bad Sonic games before and after '06.

[Spin Attaxx]

Well, it alone wouldn't have, but coupled with Shadow, it stood a pretty good damn chance, considering it beat SEGA and Sonic's reputation as a video game icon to a wheezing, bloody pulp. Yet SEGA seemed keen enough to remind everyone about it by putting it in Generations instead of giving it a chance to fall into obscurity (which, given the game's rep as the modern Superman 64, probably wouldn't have happened anyway).

Edited November 18, 2012 by Spin Attaxx

[VO.SUPER]

You sound...mad.

Maybe I do to you, well then ok.

Basic character movement is not something that you should leave until the last minute to "fix". It's something you should get right from the start, so you can build the rest of the game around it (isn't that the excuse they gave for not fixing S4E1 and Generations Classic, even?). And regardless of whether you want to call this a design flaw or a planning flaw, it's still shit, it still pervades every part of the game, and that means there is never a "harmless" part of the game.

Yes, it's shit, but it's not a design flaw, which was my point. However, you do make your point clear enough when you say it isn't harmless. Yes, the programming flaw is still a flaw which doesn't make it harmless. I guess I'll still say the ideas were harmless.

Oh, so you haven't seen it? So it never happened to you?

I'm obviously just making things up.

No, not really. I guess I just never looked at Clements LP. It just never has happened to me, and I don't see it happen often.

It's not really a secret path if it's just sitting there.

Fair enough.

No, the fact that it's boring means it's bad.

Jumping with Sonic is boring too when you just press a button and just jump between one platform to platform. But the things designed around Sonic's jumping makes it fun.

I am just...constantly shocked by this. This belief that if something isn't actively harmful, there's nothing wrong with it. It's a shitty, counterintuitive, boring, worthless gimmick that will get you one cheap death and from then on it's nothing but busywork.

Explain to me how "hold button to not die" is ever going to be a clever game mechanic.

It's really not the button that makes it good, it's how it's used.

You're defending '06. And don't give me that "well I don't really like it or anything" shit, you are going out of your way to reach for any tiny justification that the game isn't utter shit, and you are wrong every time.

It is utter shit. But there are decent aspects that were poorly used and thus are all done badly. I'm not saying the game is good. Not by any stretch. But I think the ideas were decent enough, at least in my opinion, and I'm sorry if it shocks you. Maybe I'm just that radically different from you.

But now I'm making myself look like an ars.... asshole here, (though your words aren't making me look any better), so I might as well stop defending the aspects I thought were ok.