Official Sonic 2006 topic

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

It's funny that you would mention Sonic Boom too because it's even more broken than 06, and it came a whole console generation after.

 

Hate to break it to ya, but ever since the patch to Boom, 06 is far from being dethroned as the most broken of the Sonic console games.

 

It actually doesn't betray her character though.

In fact, this very same mindset was displayed in Sonic Adventure 2, when she gladly sides with Sonic even though the entire Army is after him. She doesn't know if Sonic actually did all of the things Shadow did, she just had faith in him.

 

The statement is implying that she /knows/ that Sonic /won't/ betray the world. She literally just said "NO! I don't believe it...", right before that statement.

*Sigh* Unfortunately Sonic Adventure 2 is also kind of seen as a degrade to Amy's character. That said the comparison still wouldn't quite work I'm afraid. See, in Sonic Adventure 2, instead of allegedly implying, Amy actually was acting on he belief that Sonic would never do such a thing as what Shadow was doing (not that it took a genius to even see that wasn't Sonic), but the prospect of her standing by Sonic if he all of sudden were the source of such troubles was never hinted at. 06 on the other hand goes the different route and pretty much has her state she'd still love Sonic even if he weren't the hero she admired him for being in the first place.

 

I said, they knew each other for 3 days, I said nothing of how much or how long they interacted with each other.

Regardless though, you can't deny that Sonic didn't have some sort of impact on Elise. So stating such facts is actually pretty trivial.

Hang on there tiger, let's not get too ahead of ourselves there. You'll recall I never said Sonic didn't have an impact on Elise; no, that'd be impossible to deny. However, the tier of impact in question to the point of Elise pondering dooming the world isn't justified because the jarring lack of interaction showcasing why we should buy into Elise caring as deeply as she apparently does for a blue hedgehog when she neevr shed a tear fro her own father.

[FriendBot]

I'm gonna have to respectfully disagree then, because Heroes was far more of a chore due to being repetitive and having so much padding to it. And even then, Heroes locked you into rooms filled with those enemies a lot more often, especially in levels like Hang Castle and Final Fortress, so while it may get old in 06 you have more options of just running past the enemies to continue the level instead of being walled off in a room with a single Egg Hammer or three with 30 hit points that takes a good minute to bring down unless you had a team blast.

 

Nor did I have to do this four times with teams that were essentially the same as each other with little differences, which is telling when Heroes is a lot more polished than Sonic 06.

 

Still, we can all agree that combat in Sonic games haven't been so good. And it's funny, because I don't think having hit points in general is a bad thing than it is giving the enemies so much of it.

 

I'm not saying Heroes did combat section any better but when it comes to the combat itself compared to 06, there were atleast options on how you could take them down. For flying enemies, you could use Tails' Thunder Shoot to take all of them down. For ground enemies, you could use Knuckles' Fire Dunk to destroy them or you could use Sonic's homing attack to finish the job as well. For 06, it's there is no other option to it when it comes to characters like Shadow or Silver since they're the most combat-orientated in the game, you're either shocking enemies or throwing stuff at them with Silver or mashing the jump button as Shadow. When it comes to combat in of itself, 06 was pretty much the worst in the series.

 

When it comes to combat sections, I can agree that Heroes was the worst when it comes to it. And that kind of sucks since I actually the level design of those levels and the combat sections weren't needed at all.

[DBZHedgy]

Hate to break it to ya, but ever since the patch to Boom, 06 is far from being dethroned as the most broken of the Sonic console games.

The fact that it was more broken than 06, pre-patch is the thing to note here, especially since the Development time was pretty extensive compared to 06. I don't recall anything happening to their dev team either. There isn't really any excuse that the game wasn't like that to begin with.

 

*Sigh* Unfortunately Sonic Adventure 2 is also kind of seen as a degrade to Amy's character. That said the comparison still wouldn't quite work I'm afraid. See, in Sonic Adventure 2, instead of allegedly implying Amy actually was acting on he belief that Sonic would never do such a thing as what Shadow was doing (not that it took a genius to even see that wasn't Sonic), but the prospect of her standing by Sonic if he all of sudden were the source of such troubles was never hinted at. 06 on the other hand goes the different route and pretty much has her state she'd still love Sonic even if he weren't the hero she admired him for being in the first place.

Your forgetting that Amy said, "NO! I don't believe it!" 

Which goes beyond simply implying that Amy was acting on the belief that Sonic would never do such a thing. It shoves it right in your face.

There's also the fact that Sa2 never explicitly states that Amy isn't under the guise that Sonic wasn't the one to commit those crimes. Sure, the games makes it clear that Tails doesn't believe that Sonic would rob the bank or destroy military buildings, but Amy is simply there to "Save her hero Sonic". It's rarely ever elaborated on further from her perspective. 

 

Hang on there tiger, let's not get too ahead of ourselves there. You'll recall I never said Sonic didn't have an impact on Elise; no, that'd be impossible to deny. However, the tier of impact in question to the point of Elise pondering dooming the world isn't justified because the jarring lack of interaction showcasing why we should buy into Elise caring as deeply as she apparently does for a blue hedgehog when she neevr shed a tear fro her own father.

Er... I wasn't implying that you ever said that Sonic didn't have an impact on Elise. I was making it clear that the fact was evident. Slow down a bit mang.

Also, you're pretty dead set on making it seem like Elise actually meant that statement when it was pretty obvi that it wasn't a conscious choice / decision. Adding to that, is the countless things that completely contradict that statement, which make it even more evident that she obviously didn't mean it.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I'm not saying Heroes did combat section any better but when it comes to the combat itself compared to 06, there were atleast options on how you could take them down. For flying enemies, you could use Tails' Thunder Shoot to take all of them down. For ground enemies, you could use Knuckles' Fire Dunk to destroy them or you could use Sonic's homing attack to finish the job as well. For 06, it's there is no other option to it when it comes to characters like Shadow or Silver since they're the most combat-orientated in the game, you're either shocking enemies or throwing stuff at them with Silver or mashing the jump button as Shadow. When it comes to combat in of itself, 06 was pretty much the worst in the series.

 

When it comes to combat sections, I can agree that Heroes was the worst when it comes to it. And that kind of sucks since I actually the level design of those levels and the combat sections weren't needed at all.

But Heroes often overspecialized with it's combat so much to the extent you could only destroy those enemies with a certain type, like you outlined. Flying enemies that pestered you were often too high or flew in places too suicidal for any other character but the flying types to shoot down, and all the heavily armored enemies (bar the Pawns with shields) could only be attacked by the power types, both of which bogged things down. And it would go at a slower pace if you were at your lowest level where you did the lowest damage, so Tails could only paralyze flying enemies and Knuckles took longer to destroy armored foes until they reached their most powerful where they could one shot them or finish them off in seconds.

 

This is where I felt 06 was much better because no matter how heavily armored the enemies were, or how high the enemies could fly, every character (well, most of them...) could reach them take them down with similar risks to themselves without needing someone special to do it.

 

But either way, we're talking games during the franchise's dark age, so I suppose it doesn't really say much no matter what credit we give these games. Both games have severe flaws that need fixing, one more so than the other. Mainly, these games are how not to do combat in a Sonic game.

[pppp]

Your forgetting that Amy said, "NO! I don't believe it!" 

Which goes beyond simply implying that Amy was acting on the belief that Sonic would never do such a thing.

 

You give the writer way too much credit. Not to mention right after that she says "Even if that was true". She does say that she will side with Sonic even if he is indeed a killer.

 

Honestly why do you insist on grasping at straws to try to defend 06? You're like a creationist trying to "prove" that evolution doesn't happen.

[FriendBot]

Well, I didn't find the overspecialization to be that much of a big deal since you can switch characters with a press of a button but I can see your point. But when it comes to enemies like the Egg Hammers and that one other robot, then it can be a problem. And when I beat enemies in Heroes, I get satisfaction for destroying a bunch enemies with ease. In 06, when I beat enemies, they either dissappear/implode or go into ragdoll mode which looks fucking ridiculous btw. I don't get satisfaction for beating enemies in 06 while I do in Heroes, that's point where I find the former worser than the latter.

[DBZHedgy]

You give the writer way too much credit. Not to mention right after that she says "Even if that was true". She does say that she will side with Sonic even if he is indeed a killer.

 

Honestly why do you insist on grasping at straws to try to defend 06? You're like a creationist trying to "prove" that evolution doesn't happen.

Your being a bit snide there man.

I personally don't really care how you see me, so you might as well just stop with the insults

 

On topic though, wouldn't the very fact that she said she didn't believe it counter that statement since the reason she doesn't believe it is because she knows Sonic wouldn't do that?

You're ignoring that.

Well, I didn't find the overspecialization to be that much of a big deal since you can switch characters with a press of a button but I can see your point. But when it comes to enemies like the Egg Hammers and that one other robot, then it can be a problem. And when I beat enemies in Heroes, I get satisfaction for destroying a bunch enemies with ease. In 06, when I beat enemies, they either dissappear/implode or go into ragdoll mode which looks fucking ridiculous btw. I don't get satisfaction for beating enemies in 06 while I do in Heroes, that's point where I find the former worser than the latter.

What satisfaction do you get? Do you mean like personal satisfaction or like a reward the game gives you for beating up enemies? Other than letting you by a wall...

[FriendBot]

It's more of a personal satisfaction, seeing all the robots being destroyed and seeing all the destruction I've caused, especially when you level up the Power character's ground attacks to the max and see all the explosions, gives some sense of satisfaction to me and the fact I can get a special score bonus for beating a wave of enemies very quickly is also pretty rewarding as well. I find it fun to destroy enemies in Heroes, 06 doesn't give that satisfaction especially when the enemies I defeated go ragdoll mode all of a sudden. It looks dumb and no satisfaction is gained from it IMO.

[Briraka]

I don't know who the guy at Sonic Team was that thought adding health bars to enemies in Sonic games was a good idea in the first place. It makes sense in Sonic Heroes I guess since you level up, and in Shadow the Hedgehog you can kill enemies quickly with weapons. Sonic 06 is a chore though because enemies can only die through homing attacks and regular attacks. Too bad the developers were dumb enough to leave out the jump roll, or were they trying to be "realistic?"

Or it could be possible that they ran out of time and forgot or didn't finish programing the glow effect that let's the player know that they can hurt enemies. Because if you think about it, every game since SA2 had Sonic and co. have this glow effect when they spin jumped to signify their attack state, probably because the characters go into a falling animation whenever they descended from a spin jump.

 

Which is weird, they had the glow effect finished for the bounce. So maybe it was a design choice, either way you look at it this shit's stupid...

[DBZHedgy]

I can understand where you're coming from Soni, but personally, seeing all of the pieces flying, and the robots being flung across the place is pretty neat to say the least. I can't say that Heroes' form of satisfaction is bad either though. 

[FriendBot]

But did it have to go into ragdoll mode for it to happen though?

[DBZHedgy]

Yes ;P

In all seriousness though, is there really anything wrong with it though?

[FriendBot]

It looks really lazy and weird to see. I mean, you would've expected that they might've made an animation when an enemies is defeated but they took the lazy way out and go ragdoll mode on it. It might not be that much of a big deal but it bothers me though.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

Well rag doll physics are often quite jarring. And the crap hit detection which can allow you to get hurt or knocked down in 06 from a flipping goal post, to even an enemy that's supposed to be dead, having figures that can hit you jerking around doesn't exactly help the 06 experience.

[DBZHedgy]

What are you talking about Jova?

That hit detection on the goal post comes from the same mechanic that makes you fall down when you hit a wall. 

I'd imagine if they had actually not made that a solid object someone would comment about how they were so careless as to not do something about it. 

 

Why are you being so cynical about it anyway dood? Aren't they supposed to be robots? It compliments that fact quite nicely how they fall apart and as such have pieces that are left behind like rubble. You notice how that doesn't occur for Iblis / Mephiles creatures right?

 

And Soni, I don't really remember the devs ever making an animation for robot's death animation...

I find it better than an obligatory 'boom' after you bash an enemy enough times.

[FriendBot]

All enemies go ragdoll mode when they get defeated, either that or they suddenly dissappear. Whether it's Iblis Worms or super generic robots. Unless you're talking about Heroes, they don't but since it has a visual distraction, it distracts the fact they didn't made an defeated animation. 06 doesn't have such visual distractions and if they did, it wasn't enough to distract the fact they made the enemies go all ragdoll.

[DBZHedgy]

I was talking about like any Sonic game ever about the animation.

 

There's also that big blueish explosion along with the gem that pops out of em' to make it look flashy.

It obviously didn't work for you, but it looked nice honestly.

[FriendBot]

Well, I don't feel the need to talk about how defeated animations are or aren't used in Sonic games. I'm not good when it comes to techincal stuff in the series, so I'm just gonna drop it.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

What are you talking about Jova?

Hit detection so bad that even the debris of enemies defeated can hurt you for no reason as seen @ 12:19 here: http://youtu.be/fVDZWZ82AoYThe last thing any gamer wants is the rag doll jerking enemies with the ability to still hurt you even when they legit shouldn't.

 

 

That hit detection on the goal post comes from the same mechanic that makes you fall down when you hit a wall. 

I'd imagine if they had actually not made that a solid object someone would comment about how they were so careless as to not do something about it.

Considering that pretty much every other Sonic game has never used the "solid" hit detection with a checkpoint for the obvious reason that in Sonic games, checkpoints are meant to help, not hinder you in the first place, it's quite clear here that Sonic 06 dun goofed in that regard among countless other things.

[DBZHedgy]

Hit detection so bad that even the debris of enemies defeated can hurt you for no reason as seen @ 12:19 here: http://youtu.be/fVDZWZ82AoYThe last thing any gamer wants is the rag doll jerking enemies with the ability to still hurt you even when they legit shouldn't.

Oh, wow. xD

I've never seen that before, so I'll let you have that, however, that isn't actually the enemy that did the damage, that was the enemies attack. Can you show me an instance of a severed enemy part actually doing damage instead of an attack? If not, that statement was very misleading.

Are you saying that a missile fired by a robot that you just killed shouldn't be able to hurt you either? I understand that this instance was terribly unforgivable, but this scenario is extremely rare nonetheless.

 

Considering that pretty much every other Sonic has never used the "solid" hit detection with a checkpoint for the obvious reason that checkpoints aren't meant to hinder you in the first place, it's quite clear here that Sonic 06 dun goofed in that regard among countless other things.

...Come on Jova. A solid goal post won't make or break a game.

Saying a game dun goofed because of this is pretty dramatic to say the least. :/

Like honestly, it isn't even worth mentioning.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

Oh, wow. xD

I've never seen that before, so I'll let you have that, however, that isn't actually the enemy that did the damage, that was the enemies attack.

Oh, no that certainly was a death caused by using the homing attack on an enemy that was debris at that point. Check again, and one definitely sees, he homing attacked it and poof he's dead, which also goes to show problems with the buggy homing attack of 06.

 

 

...Come on Jova. A solid goal post won't make or break a game.

Woah! Hang on a sec before you jump the gun there DBZHedgy! Allow me to I never said that the solid goal post alone made 06 the mass of ass. Simply just pointed out that it handled goal posts poorly among many other things compared to all the other Sonic games.

[DBZHedgy]

Oh, no that certainly was a death caused by using the homing attack on an enemy that was debris at that point. Check again, and one definitely sees, he homing attacked it and poof he's dead, which also goes to show problems with the buggy homing attack of 06.

He died because of the lightning shield, not because of the robots' debris.

So... can you show me an instance where you can actually die because of a robots severed limbs? 

 

Woah! Hang on a sec before you jump the gun there DBZHedgy! Allow me to I never said that the solid goal post alone made 06 the mass of ass. Simply just pointed out that it handled goal posts poorly among many other things compared to all the other Sonic games.

I knew I should've elaborated further on that...

I wasn't saying that you said that it was the entire reason the game is terrible, I was focusing on how extremely aggressive you were acting because the goal post had solid walls. I mean, really?

 

 

Considering that pretty much every other Sonic game has never used the "solid" hit detection with a checkpoint for the obvious reason that in Sonic games, checkpoints are meant to help, not hinder you in the first place, it's quite clear here that Sonic 06 dun goofed in that regard

2 seconds of a lack of movement isn't much of a hinderance man.

Like I said before, it's barely even worth mentioning, and here you're acting as if you clipped through the stage and got flung to Shadow's section of Wave Ocean. 

It really isn't that big of a deal compared to the other things that the game does.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

He died because of the lightning shield, not because of the robots' debris.

That was lightning generated by the debris, hence why Sonic with the 06 engine homing attack, homed right in on the lightning and debris which did effectively kill him, Again, he explicitly died because of getting hit by a particular robot that shouldn't be able to hurt him after it's destroyed. If you want to give a response that continues to try and hand-wave that fact, then go ahead, can't promise it'll garner a response from moi by then, but the conclusion of this particular debate is quite clear.

 

I wasn't saying that you said that it was the entire reason the game is terrible, I was focusing on how extremely aggressive you were acting because the goal post had solid walls. I mean, really?

Extremely aggressive? Pfft Okay Hedgy, I think you're over-thinking things here. I don't think the notion of defending a goal post's hit detection is THAT important now.

The fact that it was more broken than 06, pre-patch is the thing to note here, especially since the Development time was pretty extensive compared to 06. I don't recall anything happening to their dev team either.

The fact that it's past tense, makes the notion of RoL being more broken than 06 irrelevant though, not to mention that it actually shows RoL actually getting more support. In addition to the patch making RoL average and less memorable than the travesty of 06,it's quite obvious which one's going to continue going down in history as the most broken of the Sonic franchise.

 

Also, in response to below, I must remind you that Sonic Adventure 2 is seen by much of the fanbase as a downgrade to Amy's character, so it's still not quite an ideal comparison.

Your forgetting that Amy said, "NO! I don't believe it!" 

Which goes beyond simply implying that Amy was acting on the belief that Sonic would never do such a thing. It shoves it right in your face.

There's also the fact that Sa2 never explicitly states that Amy isn't under the guise that Sonic wasn't the one to commit those crimes. Sure, the games makes it clear that Tails doesn't believe that Sonic would rob the bank or destroy military buildings, but Amy is simply there to "Save her hero Sonic". It's rarely ever elaborated on further from her perspective. 

 

Again, as pppp has stated, Amy still states that even if Sonic were responsible for the world's destruction, she'd still stand by him. her not believing it has nothing to do with the fact she confirmed she'd betray her character in the hypothetical situation suggested in 06. And let's not forget that in Adventure 2 there was actually evidence right there from the get-got that Sonic wasn't Shadow, whereas in 06 at the point of that scene, there wasn't really anything at the moment debunking the suggestion  of Sonic being the Iblis Trigger, so in that game, Amy was acting completely on whim from the start.

 

Er... I wasn't implying that you ever said that Sonic didn't have an impact on Elise. I was making it clear that the fact was evident.

Kinda makes the response a bit pointless though, since my post was about the amount if impact built on what little time Sonic and Elise actually had together as opposed to whether or not there was impact.

[DBZHedgy]

That was lightning generated by the debris, hence why Sonic with the 06 engine homing attack, homed right in on the lightning and debris which did effectively kill him, Again, he explicitly died because of getting hit by a particular robot that shouldn't be able to hurt him after it's destroyed. If you want to give a response that continues to try and hand-wave that fact, then go ahead, can't promise it'll garner a response from moi by then, but the conclusion of this particular debate is quite clear.

Are you seriously saying that an electric shield is a part of the robot? If this is the case, than would that also fly across the screen when the robot is destroyed? Even the very notion of an energy shield being a part of debris is just ridiculous. There was literally nothing in the shield when he died. 

Again, are you saying that because a missile was shot from a robot before it died, it shouldn't harm you?

 

 

Extremely aggressive? Pfft Okay Hedgy, I think you're over-thinking things here. I don't think the notion of defending a goal post's hit detection is THAT important now.

Laugh if ya want, but getting all pent up because of a goal post is pretty ridiculous =P

 

The fact that it's past tense, makes the notion of RoL being more broken than 06 irrelevant though, not to mention that it actually shows RoL actually getting more support. In addition to the patch making RoL average and less memorable than the travesty of 06,it's quite obvious which one's going to continue going down in history as the most broken of the Sonic franchise.

Not really.

Literally no one has changed their opinion on the game. All of the people who reviewed it never took down their old review and put up a new one exclusively for the patched RoL. The damage is already done.

 

Also, in response to below, I must remind you that Sonic Adventure 2 is seen by much of the fanbase as a downgrade to Amy's character, so it's still not quite an ideal comparison.

I keep hearing you say this, but... I've never actually heard this from anyone before. Except you of course. 

I mean I've heard people praising Amy in Sa2 pretty frequently, but I've never particularly heard anyone ever bash her appearance. Probably because this is one of the rare occasions where she has some, if any, impact on the story whatsoever. 

 

Again, as pppp has stated, Amy still states that even if Sonic were responsible for the world's destruction, she'd still stand by him. her not believing it has nothing to do with the fact she confirmed she'd betray her character in the hypothetical situation suggested in 06. And let's not forget that in Adventure 2 there was actually evidence right there from the get-got that Sonic wasn't Shadow, whereas in 06 at the point of that scene, there wasn't really anything at the moment debunking the suggestion  of Sonic being the Iblis Trigger, so in that game, Amy was acting completely on whim from the start.

 

And like I said previously, wouldn't the very fact that she said she didn't believe it counter that statement since the reason she doesn't believe it is because she knows Sonic wouldn't do that?

Also, you literally just pointed out that the statement is hypothetical yet you continue to treat it as if it was a literal statement. wut

 

How could Sonic be responsible for releasing Iblis if he's been continually trying to stop Eggman from breaking Elise's seal?

How would that even remotely make sense???

Also this:

 

 

There's also the fact that Sa2 never explicitly states that Amy isn't under the guise that Sonic wasn't the one to commit those crimes. Sure, the games makes it clear that Tails doesn't believe that Sonic would rob the bank or destroy military buildings, but Amy is simply there to "Save her hero Sonic". It's rarely ever elaborated on further from her perspective. 

Which means that Amy was acting on a whim in Sa2 all the same.

 

Kinda makes the response a bit pointless though, since my post was about the amount if impact built on what little time Sonic and Elise actually had together as opposed to whether or not there was impact.

It was used in opposition to the fact that their time was short.

 

 

The short time in which the relationship played through was indeed short, but the interactions Elise shared with Sonic, pretty much prove that she had more than the time of her life with Sonic.

Regardless why are you making it seem like such a thing has never happened before and to much better avail. Especially considering some instances were even shorter by comparison.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

Okay now these rebuttals are getting nonsensical. Claiming that SA2 Amy is acting the same as 06 when she never said she'd stand by Sonic even if he were a villain in a Adventure 2, to denying the debris hit detection, to claiming that Else didn't mean it when she said she'd rather have the world end than never meet with Sonic, even though the bond that you yourself claim to be strong and held up their interaction asking other things backs up such a notion not to mention trying to paint others as the bad guy; none of them have actually made sense, being either suggestions or conjecture.

And like I said previously, wouldn't the very fact that she said she didn't believe it counter that statement since the reason she doesn't believe it is because she knows Sonic wouldn't do that?

Also, you literally just pointed out that the statement is hypothetical yet you continue to treat it as if it was a literal statement. wut

.

I'll repeat this only once: No. Amy not believing Sonic would be capable of such evil does not change the fact that in 06 she admitted that she still would stand him even if he were the bad guy. Pain and simple betrayal to her character right there.

As for your insistence that RoL will ultimately go down in history as more broken than 06, do you honestly believe that 06 well be dethroned that easily? Especially when this topic is even more ferrying more frequent action than the Rise of Lyric topic and public boring of the game had all but died down? It's wishful thinking, but it's still yet to actually happen.

It's getting getting awfully repetitive, coming back with pretty much much the same argument our trying to drag them on post the point they've been legit answered.

You'll have to pardon if I don't respond to all of your ideas, but I can't let history repeat itself, I'm afraid.