Official Sonic 2006 topic

[DBZHedgy]

And what is the reason for that? What "way" are you talking about? For someone who claims to like to debate you don't do a good job of it.

lol, I don't need your acknowledgement for me to feel accomplished.  

 

To specify though, I'm referring to the 'way' that allows anyone to use Chaos Powers convenient to the plot. Like Sonic in Sa2, and by extension Silver in 06.

[Tara]

I'm going to ask kindly that we refrain from personal jabs.  It's rude and mean-spirited and is only ever fallacious in the context of debate.  So enough of that, please.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

Basically the reason 06's chaotic use of chaos control is nonsensical and can;t explained away by Shadow's ability to chaos control without an emerald is quite obvious: Shadow can only perform a mitigated version of chaos control without an emerald, not the whole warping through time or jumping a huge difference of space either.

 

Than along comes 06 which doesn't explain a lick about how all of a sudden the heroes can control how far back the portals send them, not to mention making them rather idiotic by not even taking advantage of the time holes to practical enough use. An explanation for that would certainly be in order. Tsk.

[DBZHedgy]

Basically the reason 06's chaotic use of chaos control is nonsensical and can;t explained away by Shadow's ability to chaos control without an emerald is quite obvious: Shadow can only perform a mitigated version of chaos control without an emerald, not the whole warping through time or jumping a huge difference of space either.

This is just a theory though, it isn't really concretely grounded by the game.

 

Than along comes 06 which doesn't explain a lick about how all of a sudden the heroes can control how far back the portals send them, not to mention making them rather idiotic by not even taking advantage of the time holes to practical enough use. An explanation for that would certainly be in order. Tsk.

But it does though.

When they use the Chaos Control time warp it always send them far enough to accomplish what they need to accomplish, Mephiles on the other hand seems to be in complete control.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

This is just a theory though, it isn't really concretely grounded by the game.

 

Actually it's not a theory DBZ. It's common knowledge amongst the fans that Shadow needs a chaos emerald to pull off the more special qualities of chaos control. It's even spoken right in your face when Rouge worries for Shadow since he doesn't have a chaos emerald when he's left behind in the future.

But it does though.

 

Without any explanation whatsoever on phenomena like why the same portal that Sonic goes through to the past all of a sudden sends Silver to the future or how Shadow and Silver while battling, somehow conveniently opened a time portal to just the amount of years ago to Solaris' split when neither was even focusing on warping time.

 

Elise's line is followed by a decision to do what's right, and that counteracts the statement. There's nothing else in the game that would make her come across as spoiled or selfish so that just goes to show her fear of losing someone so close to her.

She only did what's right because Sonic was there to convince her so. If Sonic hadn't been around, the scene that did play out stands to reason that she still would have gone through with the more selfish decision, hence Elise's failure to mature into a decent princess, let alone a strong queen.

[DBZHedgy]

Actually it's not a theory DBZ. It's common knowledge amongst the fans that Shadow needs a chaos emerald to pull off the more special qualities of chaos control. It's even spoken right in your face when Rouge worries for Shadow since he doesn't have a chaos emerald when he's left behind in the future.

How is it common knowledge if the fact that Shadow can use Chaos Control without an emerald wasn't even explained?

Where are you getting this info from? The games have never made it clear that this was possible.

Rouge never says that Shadow is incapable of using any of his Chaos powers now that he doesn't have an emerald, she simply states the fact that Shadow doesn't have an Emerald. That's it. Then there's the fact that Shadow's power has never been seen as diminished due to his lack of Chaos Emeralds.

 

Without any explanation whatsoever on phenomena like why the same portal that Sonic goes through to the past all of a sudden sends Silver to the future or how Shadow and Silver while battling, somehow conveniently opened a time portal to just the amount of years ago to Solaris' split when neither was even focusing on warping time.

Just like how the phenomena of Shadow warping to and fro is never explained.

The only thing I can think of beyond that is the fact that just knowing what you want to do with the Emerald and it's power will yield a result. After all "Chaos is power, Power enriched by the heart".

 

She only did what's right because Sonic was there to convince her so. If Sonic hadn't been around, the scene that did play out stands to reason that she still would have gone through with the more selfish decision, hence Elise's failure to mature into a decent princess, let alone a strong queen.

You can't just ignore all of what she did beforehand, and the fact that "Just Smile" isn't actually a convincing statement can you?

[The Tenth Doctor]

How is it common knowledge if the fact that Shadow can use Chaos Control without an emerald wasn't even explained?

Where are you getting this info from? The games have never made it clear that this was possible.

Rouge never says that Shadow is incapable of using any of his Chaos powers now that he doesn't have an emerald, she simply states the fact that Shadow doesn't have an Emerald. That's it. Then there's the fact that Shadow's power has never been seen as diminished due to his lack of Chaos Emeralds.

 

 

 

2:35. The Emeralds amplify the space-time control powers of Chaos Control. Means they just make it more powerful.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

How is it common knowledge if the fact that Shadow can use Chaos Control without an emerald wasn't even explained?

Because Shadow's case was explicitly explained and anyone who's actually done their research would know that Shadow, was created as the "ultimate life form" who had the ability to do such.

[DBZHedgy]

Oye, I was completely unaware of that snippet of dialogue from ShadowTH. 

So I take back what I said about it being completely thought up. 

 

However, there is still little explanation behind this. What Black Doom says pretty much reiterates Tikal's Chant. Specifically the "Chaos it Power, Power enriched by the Heart" verse.

But then that just raises the question; how could Sonic and Silver just learn how to manipulate it so quickly? 

 

Also, referring to this quote:

It's common knowledge amongst the fans that Shadow needs a chaos emerald to pull off the more special qualities of chaos control. 

What 'special qualities of Chaos Control' is Shadow ever restricted from when he doesn't have an Emerald? 

Again, he has no trouble when he doesn't have an Emerald, which would imply that this isn't actually a hindrance to him.

[DaBatGuy]

But it does though.

When they use the Chaos Control time warp it always send them far enough to accomplish what they need to accomplish, Mephiles on the other hand seems to be in complete control.

 

Actually it doesn't as we aren't given any limitations, if any, to the time warp. Why do they only only warp back to a point where they have just barely enough time to accomplish their goals when they can go back further?

 

After Flame Core why did Sonic warp back to the point time just after they confronted Eggman in his lair, why not warp all the way back to festival and stop Eggman then or go back even further and attack Eggman before he even reached Soleanna? Same applies for when Elise died in the Egg Carrier.

 

If Shadow and Silver can warp to any point in time why warp to just a few moments before Solaris is released? Why couldn't they warp to an earlier point in time and prevent Solaris from ever being released thus saving the Dukes life?

 

This is why time travel stories require clear definitive rules( ie. "we can only do this once", "we only have enough power to go back __ years", "We can only send one person") otherwise any opportunity the characters have to fix the past in the most effective manner but don't becomes a plothole.

[DBZHedgy]

Actually it doesn't as we aren't given any limitations, if any, to the time warp. Why do they only only warp back to a point where they have just barely enough time to accomplish their goals when they can go back further?

 

After Flame Core why did Sonic warp back to the point time just after they confronted Eggman in his lair, why not warp all the way back to festival and stop Eggman then or go back even further and attack Eggman before he even reached Soleanna? Same applies for when Elise died in the Egg Carrier.

 

If Shadow and Silver can warp to any point in time why warp to just a few moments before Solaris is released? Why couldn't they warp to an earlier point in time and prevent Solaris from ever being released thus saving the Dukes life?

 

This is why time travel stories require clear definitive rules( ie. "we can only do this once", "we only have enough power to go back __ years", "We can only send one person") otherwise any opportunity the characters have to fix the past in the most effective manner but don't becomes a plothole.

What difference would it make if Sonic did stop Eggman before he came to Soleanna? The fact of the matter is he went back in time to stop him, and he did just that.

 

As for Shadow and Silver they simply went back to 'learn the truth' not to save the accident from happening. Call it selfish if you will, but the future in which Mephiles and Iblis were released would still be there. And someone would have to deal with that.

 

It's pretty much made clear that the Chaos Emeralds take them where they want to go, not much beyond that point though to be honest since the definitive point in time they wish to be in is a little more than vague.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

 

What 'special qualities of Chaos Control' is Shadow ever restricted from when he doesn't have an Emerald? 

 

Time travel and warping EXTREMELY large distances of course.

 

You can't just ignore all of what she did beforehand, and the fact that "Just Smile" isn't actually a convincing statement can you?

If you mean her fawning over Sonic, crying at his death, reviving him with a kiss and the chaos emeralds that everyone else was busy getting, don't worry, I haven't forgotten; hence the fact said actions don't change Elise's lack of development.

[DBZHedgy]

Time travel and warping EXTREMELY large distances of course.

Now back it up, especially the italicized.

 

If you mean her fawning over Sonic, crying at his death, reviving him with a kiss and the chaos emeralds that everyone else was busy getting, don't worry, I haven't forgotten; hence the fact said actions don't change Elise's lack of development.

Of course that's not what I meant xD

I'm talking about this:

 

If she didn't mean it, why exactly did she blow out the candle?

If she didn't mean it, why would she say that she loved the people of her country? Especially when she would go to great lengths to bottle up her emotions.

Also, her escaping from Eggman with the assistance of Amy and submitting herself to Eggman. 

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

Actually, there's a bit of a misunderstanding. What Shadow does without a chaos emerald isn't true chaos control.

Time travel and warping EXTREMELY large distances of course.

This itself is the actual chaos control. Shadow has never actually yelled "CHAOS CONTROL!" when story-wise he doesn't have a chaos emerald. He didn't need one to do his short-range teleportation during his fight with Sonic in SA2, and even in Shadow the Hedgehog on the first level, story-wise he has the chaos emerald so he can use chaos control.

 

And to put the final solidification, I will present the evidence: Sonic Team themselves confirming that Shadow can't do Chaos Control without an emerald! Check out 41:30 !

 

[DBZHedgy]

So then, what exactly is he doing in those instances of pseudo-Chaos Control?

[Gabz Girl]

Hey Jovah, I know you're a big fan of Phoenix Wright but you're going overboard there with the gifs. Just sayin. XP

 

Anyway I always thought what Shadow did without the Emerald was merely teleportation at short distances. Chaos Control is something much, much bigger; he can freeze time and can travel much faster and further because of that.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

So then, what exactly is he doing in those instances of pseudo-Chaos Control?

Pretty much what Gabz Girl says, "merely teleportation at short distances". And you know why Shadow's teleportation is acceptable while Sonic 06's nonsensical use of chaos control isn't; the fact that Shadow's inherent ability actually stays consistent, and makes sense by actually connecting properly to way it's been used in past experiences as well, unlike the latter.

[DBZHedgy]

What does this have to do with the Chaos Control of 06 though?

Other than the fact that Shadow uses teleportation in the same fashion that he does in Sonic Adventure 2.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

 

 

Of course that's not what I meant xD

I'm talking about this:

 

 

Also, her escaping from Eggman with the assistance of Amy and submitting herself to Eggman. 

Already handled those two in quote to which you had no counter-argument response to:

 

As the scene suggests, she values Sonic over everything else. This also ties in to Elise's failure of a character arc. She's meant to mature into a strong queen yet even at the end when the right thing to do was obvious from the get go, she still leaned more towards her own selfish desires. The only reason she blew it out was that Sonic, the one she adored most, convinced her to actually blow it out. Nothing else there would've convinced her to actually see sense.

 

Simple she loved Sonic over everything else she may have loved. Ya can't really excuse how awful that line about dooming the world for the sake of meeting Sonic.

 

Think hard enough on that one and sooner or later, you'd come to realize that her being aware of Sonic having to leave eventually in no way changes her feelings for him.

Aren't the two instances of Shadow teleporting... like the exact same thing?

 

What "two instances"? Shadow's default teleporting ability has never really fluctuated between games.

[DBZHedgy]

To which I replied:

 

It doesn't destroy her Character arc though, she forfeited herself to Dr. Eggman to save Soleanna from being reduced to rubble. 

She bottled up her sadness for 10 years to keep her people safe. 

She was ready to kill herself to keep Dr. Eggman from unlocking the Secret of the Flames of Disaster.

If all of these instances are stacked against this one weakness in character, it's actually quite obvious that she didn't mean it.

Also, I sort of find it hard to believe that asking her to "just smile" would be enough to substitute for an actual convincing argument that would change her mind. Which means that she knew that she would half to do it, whether she did or didn't care for the world (which it's obvious that she did).

 

Before you give your rebuttal though, why is it so hard to believe that this was just an instance of fear? Everything else reflects this mindset since this is the only instance of her even remotely being selfish so why ignore it?

 

That's the point I'm trying to make though. If her awareness of his departure wouldn't change her feelings for Sonic, then why would it change her feelings for her country?

 

That doesn't even make sense. The dedication she holds from Sonic comes from the fact that Sonic is such a good-hearted person. In fact now that I think about it, the statement doesn't even directly declare that Sonic is a bad guy, it's implying that if the world was against Sonic, then the world is wrong because Sonic's prior actions have proved that he has always been on the side of justice, and thus he deserves her dedication.

 

To which you had no counter argument to. In fact you kinda just brushed it off and brought up a different topic altogether. :T

What "two instances"? Shadow's default teleporting ability has never really fluctuated between games.

I was talking about his uses of it between Sonic 06, and Sa2, but I edited because I realized it was irrelevant.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

What does this have to do with the Chaos Control of 06 though?

Other than the fact that Shadow uses teleportation in the same fashion that he does in Sonic Adventure 2.

Huh, I'm surprised  you've forgotten that it was you who actually began the debate connecting the two. As pppp has stated you were at the time attempting to defend Mephiles and 06's nonsensical time travel using chaos control http://board.sonicstadium.org/index.php?app=forums&module=forums&section=findpost&pid=912231 .

 

I recall, you started a whole spiel on the plot and use of Chaos Control, how Shadow's supposed use of it without an emerald made it legitimate and also some theory about Mephiles absorbing the ability to use Chaos Control without an emerald from Shadow's shadow. This connection all trails back to you DBZ.

 

You probably weren't paying attention or the server wipe made it disappear so I'll just post it again.

He literally just used Chaos Control without a chaos emerald in the beginning of his story. 

 

Then there's the fact that he uses Chaos Control during his battle with Sonic at the end of the Hero and Dark stories in Sonic Adventure 2 when Sonic is the only one with a Chaos Emerald (and a fake one no less).

 

 

 

I seem to recall Shadow using Chaos Control in Shadow the Hedgehog without using the first Chaos Emerald obtained.

 

To which I replied:

 

That wasn't a counter argument though. It was repetition of conjecture that didn't actually address the points I made.

 

 

It doesn't destroy her Character arc though, she forfeited herself to Dr. Eggman to save Soleanna from being reduced to rubble. 

She bottled up her sadness for 10 years to keep her people safe. 

She was ready to kill herself to keep Dr. Eggman from unlocking the Secret of the Flames of Disaster.

None of these instances affect the overlying fact that Elise loved Sonic to the point where her first choice was to choose him and doom the world.  And yeah, the alleged bottling up of sadness, doesn't really show either. You talk a big game of Elise actually concealing these emotions even though we're never actually shown her legitimately holding back these feelings. Not crying is one thing, but man oh man are her emotions as open to the world as a book or a data log in FFXIII's case.

[DBZHedgy]

Huh, I'm surprised  you've forgotten that it was you who actually began the debate connecting the two. As pppp has stated you were at the time attempting to defend Mephiles and 06's nonsensical time travel using chaos control http://board.sonicstadium.org/index.php?app=forums&module=forums&section=findpost&pid=912231 .

 

I recall, you started a whole spiel on the plot and use of Chaos Control, how Shadow's supposed use of it without an emerald made it legitimate and also some theory about Mephiles absorbing the ability to use Chaos Control without an emerald from Shadow's shadow. This connection all trails back to you DBZ.

Oh, well in all honesty I did forget about that.

 

However, I have evidence to back up the fact that Shadow can use Chaos Control without Chaos Emeralds.

(It's at the beginning, 0:30 to be precise)

Granted, this evidence doesn't really have much significance without the proper context, but it is revealed that Black Doom had all of the Emeralds at the end of the stage, yet Shadow was still capable of using (AND shouting) Chaos Control. I mean Sonic outright says that you have to use Chaos Control to get to Black Doom.

 

Sonic Team / SEGA may have said that he can't do it, but this quite clearly contradicts this.

None of these instances affect the overlying fact that Elise loved Sonic to the point where her first choice was to choose him and doom the world.  And yeah, the alleged bottling up of sadness, doesn't really show either. You talk a big game of Elise actually concealing these emotions even though we're never actually shown her legitimately holding back these feelings. Not crying is one thing, but man oh man are her emotions as open to the world as a book or a data log in FFXIII's case.

They actually do since they contradict the idea that she's even remotely selfish. In like any way whatsoever.

She literally says with her lips forming words that come out of her mouth that she loves her people and the country.

And you yourself has commented on how she hadn't cried because of her fathers death. 

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

Sonic Team / SEGA may have said that he can't do it, but this quite clearly contradicts this.

Between the official word backing that and the fact gameplay is once again segregated from story, it's quite safe to say that trying to claim the contrary is a strawman's arguement. Besides even going by your logic, you've made the error of claiming

 

but it is revealed that Black Doom had all of the Emeralds at the end of the stage,

 

 

without having any evidence that he had them during the stage, especially since they don't show him leaving with the emeralds in the prior. Now normally one would logically conclude that once again this is the infamous trope of gameplay/story segregation, but if we'd be playing with the leaps of logic on the tier of using gameplay segments along with the story that you're often comfortable with, DBZ, then there'd be no denying of the chance that Shadow actually did have a chaos emerald on him prior to the scene.

 

You're going to need something more concrete to actually such a solid contradiction.

They actually do since they contradict the idea that she's even remotely selfish. In like any way whatsoever.

 

No they don't.  None of those even begin to deny her capacity for selfishness. Bring up the things that she does for what she loves all you want, it doesn't erase her nearly pulling the mistake of her entire life and that of the universe, by almost dooming the world for she loved the most, more than anything else: Sonic

[DBZHedgy]

K no prob.

Here we see Black Doom using Chaos Control with the Emeralds (which is signified by the fact that the emeralds are no longer floating above Shadow:

@1:48

 

And here we see Shadow arriving to see Black Doom holding all of the Emeralds:

@Start

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

 

She literally says with her lips forming words that come out of her mouth that she loves her people and the country.

 

Actions speak louder than words. Show me a matured Elise that wouldn't have almost let the world die for the sake of meeting a hedgehog she knew even less than her own father who she apparently never wept and then you've got yourself a legit case.

K no prob.

Here we see Black Doom using Chaos Control with the Emeralds (which is signified by the fact that the emeralds are no longer floating above Shadow:

@1:48

 

And here we see Shadow arriving to see Black Doom holding all of the Emeralds:

@Start

Again, going by your usual tier of gameplay/story leaps of logic, Black Doom not having the emeralds at the end of the first scene would leave open the possibility that Shadow had the emeralds during the gameplay section that you're trying to pass off as legitimate evidence.

 

There's a reason that such gameplay is often segregated from the story and why trying to go against that where one shouldn't doesn't really fit the bill in these kind of debates.

 

How about something actually solid, like say an actual cutscene where Shadow pulls off chaos control without an emerald?