Official Sonic 2006 topic

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

Oh. Well thank you. That's actually rather respectful of you. Honestly, I have no qualms on whether or not someone likes 06, I just always arise to help set the facts straight.

[DBZHedgy]

That's completely understandable. 

[Tani Coyote]

This topic has gotten really fucking aggressive again

I must concur.

 

I say this is a pretty golden rule: when you start using words like "you" in your post, you are treading on ground that can rapidly (but doesn't always) deteriorate into flaming, condescension, etc.

Debate the post, not the poster. Focusing solely on the arguments rather than the person making them is a good way to keep a thread from going downhill.

 

You're like a creationist trying to "prove" that evolution doesn't happen.

As much as I'd probably join in on critiquing creationism in an appropriate thread...

This isn't an appropriate thread. Let's avoid bringing religion into this. It is no more an appropriate comparison than Nazis or the Holocaust when the thread is focused on a cartoon hedgehog.

[Komodin]

Secondly your take at the "opposite position"...

is that it wouldn't make sense Amy isn't even trying to defend Sonic a a hero. So instead she tries to show he's a good person by revealing her dedication to him. Besides that idea requiring quite  a leap of logic, you still have Amy stating that she'd still side with Sonic no matter he's responsible of.....to the point where sanity is called into question as well.

 

It should be noted that, in this scene, she's defending Sonic against the guy who almost killed him. I don't know about you, but if I had someone who essentially took advantage of me to execute this person that I'm longtime friends (and admirer) with, you bet I'd be defending them as hard as possible. It's not like Amy had anything else to go by beyond the (somewhat ludicrous) word of the person who had just betrayed her trust versus the guy who she not only knew for a lot longer, but had also saved her life several times beforehand. Keep in mind that Silver never actually told her what he was gonna do to Sonic or even that he was for the blue guy, just that he was looking for... someone.

[pppp]

Cuz I really don't think it deserves most of the bashing it gets.

Not that offering a different perspective would change anyone's mind, but I'd also like to get a better idea of how it's bad from someone else's viewpoint. I'm also curious to see how that viewpoint stands against my own through discussion, and while it's rare that anyone would humor me in that endeavor, it's worth it nonetheless. For me at least... probably irritating as crap for others unfortunately...

 

 

My problem is not that you like the game, my problem is that you claim 06 is good, but instead of presenting well formed and detailed arguments, you either grasp at straws like reading way too much into a single line of dialogue or claim that "It's possible through Action Replay to do Chaos Control in ShtH without emeralds, therefore 06's stupid use of Chaos Control is legit". You know someone is desperate when they do that. I'll link you to that discussion so you don't pull the "Conveniently don't remember saying that" card:

 

 

Learn how discuss things with people properly and we'll stop "insulting" you.

[Nepenthe]

If you can't actually detail the problems of a person's argument without insulting them, you do know that you're more in line for a strike than they are, right? Knock it off.

[JezMM]

Regarding the Nights of Kronos achievement I personally never saw that as referencing an alternate ending, but simply meaning "unlocking the true end of the story" and written in the same badly formed, inconsistent and almost engrishy manner as all of the other achievement descriptions.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

It should be noted that, in this scene, she's defending Sonic against the guy who almost killed him. I don't know about you, but if I had someone who essentially took advantage of me to execute this person that I'm longtime friends (and admirer) with, you bet I'd be defending them as hard as possible. It's not like Amy had anything else to go by beyond the (somewhat ludicrous) word of the person who had just betrayed her trust versus the guy who she not only knew for a lot longer, but had also saved her life several times beforehand. Keep in mind that Silver never actually told her what he was gonna do to Sonic or even that he was for the blue guy, just that he was looking for... someone.

I can understand Amy defending Sonic; the problem is that in the 06 scene, she broke character. And there are plenty of different lines of dialogue she could have used to defend Sonic that wouldn't have set off the OOC alert.

[Nepenthe]

I don't know; defending Sonic to the end against a stranger leveling unproven accusations against him seems pretty damn in character for Amy.

Like, imagine if you will you're with your mom or dad, whichever parent you like the best, and someone who you've not met for longer than a few hours sees them and claims not only that they're from the future, but that your parent is responsible for destroying their world...........

If you'd turn against your parent, you're kind of fucked up.

[Radiant Hero Ike]

Regarding the Nights of Kronos achievement I personally never saw that as referencing an alternate ending, but simply meaning "unlocking the true end of the story" and written in the same badly formed, inconsistent and almost engrishy manner as all of the other achievement descriptions.

Most likely.

Still, off the top of my head, I'd think it'd be cool if you got some sort of secret ending for getting all the achievements/medals, or however you unlock that achievement.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

I don't know; defending Sonic to the end against a stranger leveling unproven accusations against him seems pretty damn in character for Amy.

Like, imagine if you will you're with your mom or dad, whichever parent you like the best, and someone who you've not met for longer than a few hours sees them and claims not only that they're from the future, but that your parent is responsible for destroying their world...........

If you'd turn against your parent, you're kind of fucked up.

There's a line to be drawn. Amy's character has been built upon admiring Sonic for being the hero, and in addition, the Adventure 1 saw her become more independent, not nearly as clingy.

 

Now if she'd said something along the lines of "Even if the world turns against Sonic, I'd still choose/stand by him" that would've worked out legit, showcasing her devotion to Sonic yielded by his heroics.

 

However, saying that even in the hypothetical scenario of Sonic being responsible for the world's destruction were true she'd still choose him, she makes herself  come off as brain-washed tier, to the point where even if Sonic ceased to be the hero she loved him for in the first place, she'd betray her morals, ignore the truth of the matter and blindly let things play out.

 

I myself would search for the truth to the end and defend those I care for rationally. but I wouldn't stoop to saying that I'd choose the bad guy over the world if they truly were evil ultimately.

[Nepenthe]

Amy has no idea about the veracity of Silver's claims and thus has no reason to believe him. She also has far more knowledge of Sonic's strength of character and has seen time and time again that, even in the absolute worst of circumstances, that he can still win.

 

Even if Silver's claim is true, he fails to attribute Sonic's responsibility to either malice or a mistake, nor does he explain whether or not Sonic is alive to try and address it (mainly because he knows none of this. He merely says Sonic is the catalyst for something bad and deserves death for it). This is all the information Amy herself has to work with, so even if she assumed that Sonic was "responsible," this still says absolutely nothing about either his intent or his ability to deal with the problem.

 

And that's the point people miss. Amy is not saying that if he turned evil, she would still suck his cock. She's saying that even if Sonic fucks up, he will fix it or do his best to try, because he's Sonic The Goddamned Hedgehog, and subsequently she will support him to the bitter end. It's literally the same thing Rouge said to Shadow when it was discovered he would be persecuted in a particular timeline. Shadow; the guy who tried to blow up everything once before. Seriously, the fact that anyone thinks Amy should not have defended Sonic in this scenario, or is insane for thinking that his heroism is completely meaningless because some random asshole came along and made unverifiable claims, is literally one of the most batshit criticisms you can level at a game overflowing with problems.

Edited March 19, 2015 by Nepenthe

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

Who's saying Amy shouldn't defend Sonic? By all means have the girl defend Sonic as a heron by means that actually makes sense like with Rouge in Shadow's story. Rouge stated that even if the world turned on Shadow out of a bout of persecution, she'd still stand by him, and that actually came off as noble and legit.

 

However with Amy, if there's supposedly a point to miss, the message is marred awfully badly by her literally stating that she would choose Sonic over the world even if he were responsible for its destruction. Maybe with proper context added, that could have worked, but it didn't, hence why people often frown upon that scene.

[FriendBot]

It makes sense that Amy would defend Sonic and it also makes sense that Amy wouldn't believe anything Silver has to say but the fact, it just ends with the fact she would would choose Sonic over the world, does come off a bit selfish but I'm pretty sure that's not what the scene was about. I think the scene would've been better if Silver questioned why would she say such a thing and tell her that the world is a far more important. And then, Amy would tell him that Sonic had always put his life on the line to protect the world he loves, so for him being the cause of it wouldn't make sense and tell him that whoever said that is lying. I think the cutscene just needed some more context to tell the message more clearly but hey, that's just me.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

If anything, the problem with Amy's characterization would actually be the damn scriptwriter/translator's fault making her divisive than it is Amy being OOC. (which I suppose isn't really any different, but you get what I'm saying)

 

Amy's actions in Sonic 06, flanderized to a lesser extent than Heroes (but flanderized nonetheless), was actually in character - she followed Sonic, she stood up and defended Sonic, and she chose Sonic over someone she just met. It was just the words that came out of her mouth over him that screwed up the presentation, because words like "I'd choose Sonic over the world" can show a loss of morals, and the Amy I prefered was full of them even if she was chasing Sonic around the world compared to how she was in Sonic 06. Which I find funny, because compared to her "marry me or I'll knock you off a building"-self in Heroes, she had morals to help other people she believed were in danger and fought her love to help other people in that game than this one.

 

But regarding that line she said, you could replace it with "I love Sonic more than anything" and have a better effect, as it would show her affection without making her divisive and lose sympathy with some people and still get the same message and feeling across.

 

Then again, this game is full of bad writing and dialogue, so it's not exactly fair to call Amy out on this. Elise was just as guilty of this shit, if not more so when she was actually in a position of choosing Sonic over the world, and I seriously doubt even Amy would actually be willing to do such a thing like that. And Shadow's dialogue "I'll fight like I always have" was pretty damn bland for a character like him - he had better lines in Heroes than this game. And then there's the goddamned Eggman's monologue to Elise over his plans of conquering the world right after banishing Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles into the future. Like, seriously?

 

We can go all day over this game's writing. Best to leave it at the game screwing everyone over than blasting the characters for it.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

If anything, the problem with Amy's characterization would actually be the damn scriptwriter/translator's fault making her divisive than it is Amy being OOC. (which I suppose isn't really any different, but you get what I'm saying)

 

 

Amy's actions in Sonic 06, flanderized to a lesser extent than Heroes (but flanderized nonetheless), was actually in character - she followed Sonic, she stood up and defended Sonic, and she chose Sonic over someone she just met. It was just the words that came out of her mouth that screwed up the presentation, because words like "I'd choose Sonic over the world" shows a loss of morals, and the Amy I prefered was full of them even if she was chasing Sonic around the world compared to how she was in Sonic 06.

 

It probably would have worked better if the conversation had been like this:

 

Silver: I need to save the future, and killing the Iblis Trigger is the only way!

 

Amy: That's total nonsense!

 

Silver: Huh?

 

Amy: I said that's total nonsense! Sonic has done nothing but good for his friends and the world! He has absolutely no reason to destroy it!

 

Silver: But Mephiles told me the only way to save my future was to kill the Iblis Trigger! He's the one who saw what happened in the past, and sent me back in time to keep it from happening! He's helped me come closer than anyone else to finally making a difference in my future!

 

Amy: Then if this "Mephiles" is so concerned about the future, why didn't he just come back to kill Sonic himself?

 

Silver: Um, well...

 

Amy: You don't even find it weird that this guy SOMEHOW knows how the world ended, and WHO did it, and that he SOMEHOW has the power to travel through time and yet DOESN'T use it to save the future?

 

Silver: ...

 

Amy: Silver... I know you aren't a bad person; you clearly care about your home and everyone you try to protect. Just please, please think this through! This Mephiles clearly isn't telling you everything; he might even be lying to you!

 

Silver: *can't think of a good comeback, so he tries to change topic* Why do you even care so much about the Iblis Trigger? Why do you keep defending him?

 

Amy: Because I'm his future girlfriend, and I won't let anyone hurt him!

 

Silver: So you're just gonna blindly defend him just because you LIKE him?

 

Amy: At least I know Sonic isn't a bad guy! Can you say the same about Mephiles?

 

*Silver at this point is frustrated and flies off*

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

But didn't she technically do that when Silver attacked Sonic? Minus the whole "Mephilies said..." parts?

 

Don't get me wrong, it's an excellent rewrite calling out Silver's inconsistencies. But the whole "I'll choose Sonic over the world" happened when she met Elise, not Silver - would make zero narrative sense for Amy to say this information around a guy trying to save the world at any cost he can sacrifice and trying to kill Sonic to do so.

 

EDIT: Was probably because I edited things before refreshing the page.

 

Nevermind...

[SenEDDtor Missile]

But didn't she technically do that when Silver attacked Sonic? Minus the whole "Mephilies said..." parts?

 

Don't get me wrong, it's an excellent rewrite calling out Silver's inconsistencies. But the whole "I'll choose Sonic over the world" happened when she met Elise, not Silver - would make zero narrative sense for Amy to say this information around a guy trying to save the world at any cost he can sacrifice and trying to kill Sonic to do so.

 

EDIT: Was probably because I edited things before refreshing the page.

I'm PREEETTY sure she said that line when she confronted Silver.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I'm PREEETTY sure she said that line when she confronted Silver.

Yep, just looked it up.

 

I dun goofed.

 

EDIT: God, that line is also cheap as hell in addition to bad presentation when I listen to it. It's like they just wanted to put Amy in the right and show her love without giving credible weight to either one.

[Gabz Girl]

I guess it's because of how badly the dialogue is written that I never liked that line Amy had, but now that it's explained I can sorta see what they were going for. Elise's line on the other hand is unforgiveable and makes her sound like a spoilt brat.

 

This is the same game that has Dr Eggman explain his plans to conquer the world TWICE.

[DBZHedgy]

 

My problem is not that you like the game, my problem is that you claim 06 is good, but instead of presenting well formed and detailed arguments, you either grasp at straws like reading way too much into a single line of dialogue or claim that "It's possible through Action Replay to do Chaos Control in ShtH without emeralds, therefore 06's stupid use of Chaos Control is legit". You know someone is desperate when they do that. I'll link you to that discussion so you don't pull the "Conveniently don't remember saying that" card:

 

 

Learn how discuss things with people properly and we'll stop "insulting" you.

You probably weren't paying attention or the server wipe made it disappear so I'll just post it again.

He literally just used Chaos Control without a chaos emerald in the beginning of his story. 

Then there's the fact that he uses Chaos Control during his battle with Sonic at the end of the Hero and Dark stories in Sonic Adventure 2 when Sonic is the only one with a Chaos Emerald (and a fake one no less).

 

Lastly, your blatantly taking in the same single line of dialogue at face value which is just as bad, or even worse.

I guess it's because of how badly the dialogue is written that I never liked that line Amy had, but now that it's explained I can sorta see what they were going for. Elise's line on the other hand is unforgiveable and makes her sound like a spoilt brat.

 

This is the same game that has Dr Eggman explain his plans to conquer the universe TWICE.

Elise's line is followed by a decision to do what's right, and that counteracts the statement. There's nothing else in the game that would make her come across as spoiled or selfish so that just goes to show her fear of losing someone so close to her.

 

With Eggman though, he doesn't repeat the same thing. He really just reiterates what he plans to do. Since he said nothing about ruling over time in his first speech, or about what the flames of disaster had to do with that. 

 

EDIT: My mistake, he does say what the Flames of Disaster have to do with that, but he doesn't reveal it's significance with Solaris.

[pppp]

You probably weren't paying attention or the server wipe made it disappear so I'll just post it again.

He literally just used Chaos Control without a chaos emerald in the beginning of his story. 

 

"There's no way you could have activated the Chaos Control using an emerald that's fake" - Shadow, SA2

 

Yet in S06 everybody can use Chaos Control left and right. Explain that to me without resorting to Shth's programming.

[DBZHedgy]

"There's no way you could have activated the Chaos Control using an emerald that's fake" - Shadow, SA2

Is this supposed to excuse the fact that Shadow (and Sonic by extension) were just capable of using Chaos Control even though prior evidence contradicted this?

 

Yet in S06 everybody can use Chaos Control left and right. Explain that to me without resorting to Shth's programming.

Probably the same way Sonic was capable of using Chaos Control on a whim. And with a fake emerald.

[Blacklightning]

"There's no way you could have activated the Chaos Control using an emerald that's fake" - Shadow, SA2

Just FYI, this was an expression of disbelief, not a matter of fact. The emphasis on the bolded parts as delivered by Shadow's VA ingame actually makes a lot more difference to the intended meaning than you might imagine.

[pppp]

Probably the same way Sonic was capable of using Chaos Control on a whim. And with a fake emerald.

 

And what is the reason for that? What "way" are you talking about? For someone who claims to like to debate you don't do a good job of it.