Popular and unpopular Sonic opinions you agree and disagree with!

[Nepenthe]

It's not that people want Care Bears, it's that they want to play a game, not look at the characters talking for five minutes at a time. Sonic games more often than not, never have amazing stories, yes there are exceptions but they're usually mitigated by something else about the game being faulty, usually the gameplay. Even if the story is amazingly well done, if the gameplay sucks nobody is going to care which probably attributes the Adventure games being as divisive as they are despite their arguably great stories by the series` standards. If Sonic Team ever wish to pursue more story driven games in the future, they need to make sure it's well done and doesn't detract from the gameplay, and make sure the gameplay itself is good.

If people don't want to look at any cut scenes, then they can take the initiative to move their thumb over the Start button and press it a few times, and leave me and others who do actually want to engage in the story alone.

That's the thing: Everyone who doesn't find the story in Sonic games worth their salt or just doesn't jive with the idea of these games having any sort of narrative whatsoever (as ludicrous as I find that notion), they don't have to deal with it in any capacity. There's no reason why people who despise story getting in the way of their Sonic games should've ever had any input on the way the stories are actually told, because first they've made it clear they don't give a shit about the stories in general, and secondly in the overwhelming majority of cases actually sitting through it is totally optional.

There's also no reason why this false dichotomy of "it's either a good game with a bad story, or a bad game with a good story" needs to continue persisting. I'm not advocating anything that would hamper the gameplay. They don't take programmers off the coding to help animate the extraneous amount of cut scenes. Everything in a game is planned from the outset and divvied up between specialists in different fields, so for all intents and purposes a lot of production is happening laterally. We can have a game with both good gameplay and good story, and I'll happily continue complaining about it until we get one.

Well I don't think they're evil, just stupid. There's a difference.

Everyone else is always stupid when you're not in the actual trenches in the first place.

Edited November 12, 2012 by Nepenthe

[Kuzu]

But that's not the only way to tell a story. There is (much) more to storytelling than simple exposition and there really isn't a tradeoff between gameplay and story, depending on the resources the game uses. Both can cooperate, in fact. Sonic Colours and Generations get looked upon with distaste for their stories because the exposition generally adds nothing.

It isn't compelling at all.

The actual depth of the story may be in question, but I don't believe storytelling principles are. Honestly, simple stories don't have to be told with complete disregard for sense of progression, continuity consistency and basic techniques to keep the player's interest to be kept simple.

True, but alternately you can just skip the story altogether and just give us the gameplay. Had Colors & Generations not wasted their time telling a nonexistent story, I'm pretty sure not many people would have as big a problem with them as they do.

[Alice Twilight]

I would still play that then boring medal hunting imo. Hell, I'd even play 06.

Yeah, I've had some fun playing that game.

Crisis City and Kingdom valley are my favorite stages with the Sky Gem.

[Mr. Taxi]

True, but alternately you can just skip the story altogether and just give us the gameplay. Had Colors & Generations not wasted their time telling a nonexistent story, I'm pretty sure not many people would have as big a problem with them as they do.

Maybe, but a story is sort of required to chain up everything when at least Generations doesn't show any progress through gameplay. The levels hardly get harder as you progress, there isn't anything binding them and everything that made the levels and even the rivals seem like a big deal in their original appearances (keyword: buildup) is not there anymore for the sake of the anniversary.

Without story, Sonic Generations is nothing more than a jam session of levels.

[Kuzu]

If people don't want to look at any cut scenes, then they can take the initiative to move their thumb over the Start button and press it a few times, and leave me and others who do actually want to engage in the story alone.

This really doesn't sound like much of a solution, because the story is still apart of the game regardless. It's like the people who argue that if you don't like the boost don't have to use it, despite the fact that the boost is a very important part of the gameplay, and you yourself said every part of a video game matters.

That's the thing: Everyone who doesn't find the story in Sonic games worth their salt or just doesn't jive with the idea of these games having any sort of narrative whatsoever (as ludicrous as I find that notion), they don't have to deal with it in any capacity. There's no reason why people who despise story getting in the way of their Sonic games should've ever had any input on the way the stories are actually told, because first they've made it clear they don't give a shit about the stories in general, and secondly in the overwhelming majority of cases actually sitting through it is totally optional.

There's also no reason why this false dichotomy of "it's either a good game with a bad story, or a bad game with a good story" needs to continue persisting. I'm not advocating anything that would hamper the gameplay. They don't take programmers off the coding to help animate the extraneous amount of cut scenes. Everything in a game is planned from the outset and divvied up between specialists in different fields, so for all intents and purposes a lot of production is happening laterally. We can have a game with both good gameplay and good story, and I'll happily continue complaining about it until we get one.

I really think it's just a common misconception that's been generalized, it's not so much people don't care about the story, it's that they don't care about a BAD story. When people harp on the stories in Sonic games, I'm pretty sure they're harping on the likes Shadow's game, and Sonic 06, objectively bad stories for the series. It's really more of a case of "Silent Majority", I'm pretty sure there are people outside of the fanbase who do like the games` better written stories, but don't speak too much about it because its ultimately the gameplay that matters at the end of it all. Story in video games, particularly this series, just isn't in demand.

No one is saying you can't have a good game with a good story, nor is anyone asking for a good game with a shitty story. It's just that good stories are ultimately overshadowed by the gameplay aspects, which gives developers the conception that nobody cares about their stories, giving them less incentive for competent writing. Which I'm pretty sure is the case with Sonic Team at the moment.

Maybe, but a story is sort of required to chain up everything when at least Generations doesn't show any progress through gameplay. The levels hardly get harder as you progress, there isn't anything binding them and everything that made the levels and even the rivals seem like a big deal in their original appearances (keyword: buildup) is not there anymore for the sake of the anniversary.

Without story, Sonic Generations is nothing more than a jam session of levels.

I'm not saying that isn't a problem(and it definitely is), but to some it's a problem that can be overlooked because of said levels being fun to play.

[Nepenthe]

This really doesn't sound like much of a solution, because the story is still apart of the game regardless. It's like the people who argue that if you don't like the boost don't have to use it, despite the fact that the boost is a very important part of the gameplay, and you yourself said every part of a video game matters.

That's a false dichotomy. The story isn't analogous to the boost because the story as I'm referring to it isn't a gameplay element. You can completely ignore the cut scenes and still experience the gameplay as wholly intended; not so by ignoring the boost.

You've also quoted me out of context. My belief is that every part of a game matters as far as quality is concerned, and that it's not okay to excuse mediocrity in any area simply because the gameplay is competent, as this attitude impairs the collective quality and cultural perception of games as a whole.

Said quote is further irrelevant to whether or not someone doesn't like cut scenes in a Sonic game, hence my proposed compromise for the two sides of the argument: For those who hate the story "getting in the way of the game," put your thumb over the Start button after a stage is completed, then press the Start button when a cut scene comes up to skip it. For those who like the story, ignore the above steps. This is simple.

I really think it's just a common misconception that's been generalized, it's not so much people don't care about the story, it's that they don't care about a BAD story. When people harp on the stories in Sonic games, I'm pretty sure they're harping on the likes Shadow's game, and Sonic 06, objectively bad stories for the series. It's really more of a case of "Silent Majority", I'm pretty sure there are people outside of the fanbase who do like the games` better written stories, but don't speak too much about it because its ultimately the gameplay that matters at the end of it all. Story in video games, particularly this series, just isn't in demand.

No one is saying you can't have a good game with a good story, nor is anyone asking for a good game with a shitty story. It's just that good stories are ultimately overshadowed by the gameplay aspects, which gives developers the conception that nobody cares about their stories, giving them less incentive for competent writing. Which I'm pretty sure is the case with Sonic Team at the moment.

If people don't care about bad stories, that's their prerogative. My point is that absolutely no one loses out if a collective effort is made to cause developers to start taking better care of their stories. No one loses out when developers start improving games in every area, because then games as a whole get qualitatively better, we as consumers get more bang for our buck, games get closer and closer to becoming a more respected medium- the benefits are massive when we start holding developers to a higher standard, but not so when we convince ourselves it's perfectly okay for a game's story to be bad in any circumstance and thus developers just shouldn't bother trying.

Again, if you don't care about anything except for gameplay, that's fine with me. Enjoy your games and skip everything else that serves to "get in the way." But don't "get in the way" of others who wish better for the medium by trying to pander this ridiculous idea that the only thing that matters is gameplay.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

True, but alternately you can just skip the story altogether and just give us the gameplay. Had Colors & Generations not wasted their time telling a nonexistent story, I'm pretty sure not many people would have as big a problem with them as they do.

EDIT: Or you can just make an actual story and tell the people who hate stories to piss off. Seriously, SKIP IT if you hate it so damn much, it only takes about 3 seconds at best.

Edited November 12, 2012 by Malpercio

[Kuzu]

That's a false dichotomy. The story isn't analogous to the boost because the story as I'm referring to it isn't a gameplay element. You can completely ignore the cut scenes and still experience the gameplay as wholly intended; not so by ignoring the boost.

You've also quoted me out of context. My belief is that every part of a game matters as far as quality is concerned, and that it's not okay to excuse mediocrity in any area simply because the gameplay is competent, as this attitude impairs the collective quality and cultural perception of games as a whole.

Said quote is further irrelevant to whether or not someone doesn't like cut scenes in a Sonic game, hence my proposed compromise for the two sides of the argument: For those who hate the story "getting in the way of the game," put your thumb over the Start button after a stage is completed, then press the Start button when a cut scene comes up to skip it. For those who like the story, ignore the above steps. This is simple.

My bad.

If people don't care about bad stories, that's their prerogative. My point is that absolutely no one loses out if a collective effort is made to cause developers to start taking better care of their stories. No one loses out when developers start improving games in every area, because then games as a whole get qualitatively better, we as consumers get more bang for our buck, games get closer and closer to becoming a more respected medium- the benefits are massive when we start holding developers to a higher standard, but not so when we convince ourselves it's perfectly okay for a game's story to be bad in any circumstance and thus developers just shouldn't bother trying.

Again, if you don't care about anything except for gameplay, that's fine with me. Enjoy your games and skip everything else that serves to "get in the way." But don't "get in the way" of others who wish better for the medium by trying to pander this ridiculous idea that the only thing that matters is gameplay.

I hope you understand I'm not disagreeing with you, because you're right, having a good story(or story in general) doesn't detract from the game at all, and having both can push games to being more of respected medium. I may not care much for story myself, but I understand why it's important, and do my best to argue it's merits. I was just explaining that there's more to the opposition than just "I don't like story in games, therefore it shouldn't be there" if more people spoke up about the stories, I'm pretty sure that'd give incentive for Sonic Team to try, but unfortunately that is not the case, and might not be for years to come.

[Nepenthe]

I've ranted on this a long time and found out that pretty much all of the opposition to having story has not really been convincing. This is regardless of whether or not someone is arguing that the story shouldn't be there in any capacity, or that the story should be as it is now because "Sonic is a cartoon and can't handle depth" (ludicrous for many reasons I don't feel like repeating), "Sonic Team can't write," (the solution to that's a firing and hiring situation away), "Sonic has always been like this" (demonstrably false), "every time Sonic Team's tried to write a deep story, it has failed" (demonstrably false and also a firing and hiring away from being fixed), or any of the other reasons I've heard before.

Really, do you have any insight on what particularly good argument there is for the opposing side of this debate? Because I genuinely don't.

[Kuzu]

I've ranted on this a long time and found out that pretty much all of the opposition to having story has not really been convincing. This is regardless of whether or not someone is arguing that the story shouldn't be there in any capacity, or that the story should be as it is now because "Sonic is a cartoon and can't handle depth" (ludicrous for many reasons I don't feel like repeating), "Sonic Team can't write," (the solution to that's a firing and hiring situation away), "Sonic has always been like this" (demonstrably false), "every time Sonic Team's tried to write a deep story, it has failed" (demonstrably false and also a firing and hiring away from being fixed), or any of the other reasons I've heard before.

Really, do you have any insight on what particularly good argument there is for the opposing side of this debate? Because I genuinely don't.

[batson]

On the subject of stories, one thing i want to say is that i honestly dont think the audience is really as picky and prone to negative reactions "no matter what" as they/we are sometimes said to be. I hear a lot of stuff like "first people complained about the serious stories in the games, and now that we have more lighthearted stories people complain about those. Im telling you, these Sonic fans will never be happy!". But let's examine the main reasons for why fans complained about certain stories in the first place. During what Sega and us nowadays call the the "Adventure" days of the series, the criticism usually wasnt aimed at so much the actuall stories as at the bad execution of the stories, bad because of terrible dialogue, voice acting and sometimes animation. And then during the later days of the Adventure-era (im thinking about Shadow the Hedgehog and Sonic 06), there was also the fact that Sega seemed to completely lose sight of what Sonic could and could not be in terms of not only narrative but also in terms of style and atmosphere. Shadow the Hedgehog tried to be cool and edgy in a dark and angsty sort of way that not only fits very ill with a series about what are essentially colorful cartoon characters but is also so out of date in fiction in general that you rarely see this sort of "coolness" played unironically anywhere anymore. And Sonic 06 of course made the fatal mistake of trying to make the world of Sonic realistic, which is one thing that Sonic can simply never ever be.

And as for the criticism aimed at the current Sonic games, well, Nepenthe have already said it better than i could, so lets just summarize with this; due to the stories being intended to be comedic at all times, there is no tension in them.

And i honestly believe that if Sega could only have the games tell us stories that avoids these traps that ive described above, the vast majority of fans would be satisfied. The games doesnt have to have excellent stories with complex twists or amazingly deep drama. They just have to be enjoyable adventure-stories that are competently executed and that builds tension to a satisfying degree, and that the games as a whole, including the narrative, doesnt reach to take place in universes that are outside what is appropriate for the series (such as the gloomy and grimdark universe of ShtH or the realistic universe of 06). And my proof that all that most of the fans are asking for are decent adventure-stories is this; Sonic and the Black Knight. How often do you hear criticism against the story in SatBK? I mean against the story as a whole, not just minor nitpicky things? I for one can say that i cant recall that i even once heard someone proclaim that the game had a bad story. And this isnt because the game has an amazing story in any way, shape or form, there is really nothing speciall about it. It's just a decent adventure story, a decent adventure story that is mostly well executed in terms of dialogue, voice-acting (that 'll do Griffith, that 'll do) and imagery, that builds up a satisfying degree of tension, and that takes place in a universe with an atmosphere that is appropriate for the series. And that's all we're asking for!

In short, i want to challenge the idea that "fans will complain no matter what" when it comes to story. I mean yes, obviously there are always going to be some people complaining about the story just no matter what its like just like there are always going to be some people complaining about every single other aspect of the games no matter what. But as for the vast majority of us, Sega could easily tell us stories that we would fully embrace and be satisfied with. The execution of the current games in terms of voice acting and visuals is already really good, and the games nowadays never try to reinvent the series into something it cant be like ShtH and 06 did, so the only major thing that is currently lacking untill most of us will say "yep, that's a good story" is for Sega to turn down the joking just a notch and to start building some tension. They got i right in SatBK, and they could very easily get it right again.

Edited November 12, 2012 by batson

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

But Batson, you gotta understand the complaints that lead to that conclusion of "fans complain no matter what" in the first place. Ever since ShTH came in 2005, this fandom has been put through hell.

I think another thing about that is how some fans and journalists in the media take a knee-jerk reaction to something that goes wrong. Because they screwed up in making stories, they should do away with them; because the characters that were once good started to suck, they should write them out or forget they ever existed; because of the poor writing of the script and voice actors, they should keep Sonic quiet from here on out. I mean, really, you see it in just about every article about "what went wrong with Sonic" to the point that they parrot the very sentiments of the vocal minority.

And this just echoes what the Cheese has said in my words of the wise sig. This knee-jerk addition by subtraction crap makes it a question of whether people are even putting any thought into what they're saying, and we're talking less than what you could consider "critical" thinking (and I probably didn't even use that correctly ).

But this stuff didn't come out of nowhere, and while I'm not saying that's what your implying it helps to know that if this wasn't the case then that sentiment would have never sprung up to begin with.

[Kuzu]

Hey Baston, not that you don't make a good point, but can I have a TL;DR version?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Hey Baston, not that you don't make a good point, but can I have a TL;DR version?

Edited November 12, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Alice Twilight]

You know what? With the exception of '06 I actually liked the stories.

Shadow's was more enjoyable than watching Sonic talk to a battle ship trying so hard to be funny, expecting me to crack a smile at "You guy's don't talk much do you?" or "Yeah I'm stretching, got a problem with that?"

Good grief, just shut up.

For the love of momentum, shut the hell up, Sonic.

Edited November 12, 2012 by NISA

[-blank-]

Someone mentioned medal collecting in Unleashed and I'd like to say I had barely any problem with it. I collected most of the medals through replays of the stages and casual wandering around in hubs - half the time I wasn't even actively looking for the things and by the time Jungle Joyride Day rolled around I really didn't need many more of them to unlock the stage.

[Dr. Homem]

Unpopular opinion: I think Heroes had some of the best level design in the series. Its gameplay was also mostly fun. The special stages were awesome, and I loved how they incorporated a risk reward boost mechanic. Overall it was a solid game.

[Frogging101]

TL;DR - if Sonic Team didn't fuck up the stories then hardly anyone would bitch about them, and stories wouldn't be as lacking as they are now.

I might've cuttled a few major points he made summing this up in a sentence tho, so mine's probably a watered down summary.

[Xenos]

You know what? With the exception of '06 I actually liked the stories.

Shadow's was more enjoyable than watching Sonic talk to a battle ship trying so hard to be funny, expecting me to crack a smile at "You guy's don't talk much do you?" or "Yeah I'm stretching, got a problem with that?"

Good grief, just shut up.

For the love of momentum, shut the hell up, Sonic.

[batson]

TL;DR - if Sonic Team didn't fuck up the stories then hardly anyone would bitch about them, and stories wouldn't be as lacking as they are now.

Edited November 12, 2012 by batson

[Mogtaki]

You know what? With the exception of '06 I actually liked the stories.

Shadow's was more enjoyable than watching Sonic talk to a battle ship trying so hard to be funny, expecting me to crack a smile at "You guy's don't talk much do you?" or "Yeah I'm stretching, got a problem with that?"

Good grief, just shut up.

For the love of momentum, shut the hell up, Sonic.

[#EndyGate]

Not entirely sure how popular it is, but I really hate the opinion that Sonic should get an obscene amount of representation when it comes to crossovers. The Sega Superstars/All-Stars games for example: We've still got Sonic fans clamoring for more Sonic rep, some even abandoning the title because there's not enough Sonic for their tastes, even though Sonic already has more rep than any other franchise (7 characters (including Metal Sonic) and 5 tracks (including the two classic tracks)) and it's meant to be a testament to Sega games both old and new. Hell, even for Super Smash Bros I can see some people speculating that Sonic will get several characters in on the next game, which is even worse considering that Smash is about Nintendo's franchises above all else. I just find it so irritating how this ideology just seems to disregard everything else that is meant to be represented in these kinds of games.

Another one would be that I think all 3 Modern games have some things over the other, so I say they are all equal in their own rights.

[batson]

But isn't that what he's known for doing? Being a bit of a cocky idiot? Taking that away from him got so many people angry since he wasn't trying to be a smartass aka 'cool'.

[Mogtaki]

One thing about Sonic as a character is that his original "silent protagonist" incarnation leaves so much room for interpretation that it's difficult to say how he "should" act if you wanna base your opinion on "how he was originally". The original Japanese version of Sonic was obviously supposed to be "cool", but in what specific way? Was he supposed to be a bit of a jerk, like he was often portrayed in western media, the Sonic OVA and Sonic Chronicles? Was he supposed to be a thoroughly good person but still be cocky and boastfull, like in Colors and Generations, and to a lesser degree in the two Adventure games? Was he supposed to pretty much just be a friendly guy whose "coolness" is mostly just due to being brave and having a free spirit (like he was portrayed in some pre-Colors games, i think most notably in Sonic 06 and Unleashed)?

He was supposed to be 'American cool' which is essentially being a bit of a jerk while being cocky and boastful but also a friendly guy.

He's technically never been a silent protagonist though...I mean, the adverts, the fact the Genesis couldn't have him saying things even if they wanted to and the reason why he's silent in Generations was because they didn't want to piss off fans.

[batson]

He was supposed to be 'American cool' which is essentially being a bit of a jerk while being cocky and boastful but also a friendly guy.

I have to say that i suspect that this is true, yeah.

Personally though, i've grown fond of the decidedly non-jerkish guy that we got to know in Sonic Adventure and have been seeing in the games ever since (disregrading Chronicles), and i wouldnt want to see him becoming (or, depending on what you believe about the original Sonic, reverting back to) a morally flawed jerk at this point.