[DELETED]

[Dr. Detective]

What I was saying is that doesn't prevent them from doing something with him in the future, nor do I see it as a viable excuse to not use him at all. Sparingly maybe, but almost never like they're currently doing.

 

Yeah. Of course. It's obvious that it shouldn't prevent them from it, if they were smart enough to find ways to do it. And they have no excuse for not exploring what else can be done with him, if they can find a way to do so that doesn't screw around with the plot. They haven't yet though so... oh well. There are probably a few ways, but with his status being what it is, there probably aren't a whole lot to allow for constant continuous appearances. I'm avoiding an answer that just says have him do the same plot device over and over again.

 

 

Replies are in bold because I don't know how to dissect posts.

 

By the way, I'd like to suggest once again: why not just retcon him? All of the games he appears in are of dubious canon anyway, so it's not like it would damage the continuity.

1. No. When you really think about it, staying in the past is not a perfectly valid way of protecting a future almost 200 years away. Not only does it open up ways to screw with the timeline and alter things the way they're supposed to happen  (which can lead to people not even being born or thoughts people had changing that can make a certain event appear or disappear) regardless of his intention to do good, but the fact of the matter is that his future has it's own threats that needs taking care of as well. According to the Rivals series, Eggman Nega wreaks havoc there on a regular basis. Both those factors coupled together just jeopardize everything. It's an incredibly stupid move for him to make and Silver knows that too. 

 

2. You're ignoring a surprising amount of things here. For one, I'm not saying he's going to jeopardize the future on purpose silly. However, just staying in the past to alter events has affects on the future that can change the flow of time and create misfortune without him meaning to. It's a really risky thing to do. He goes into the past in those other games because his future is already screwed over and he's actively trying to prevent a cataclysm that outright destroyed it. At that point, what he does can only make things better.But putting things at risk just to visit Sonic's friends is downright insane. 

 

Secondly, Silver was only taken in by the beauty of Sonic's world in the story of Sonic 06, where his future is ruined by Iblis. Saying that currently you doubt he has fond memories of his future makes no sense. Iblis was erased from time. How he views his future is different now. In the Rivals series, his future is threatened again by Eggman Nega's coming to the past to screw things over. And in Rivals 2, his future was ruined by the Ifrit. And in Colors DS, he says everyone's happy where he lives. And even if Silver weren't fond of the future he lived in, that doesn't mean he'd forsake the people he cared about there by staying in the past. The entire point behind his character is that he has a strong sense of justice and wants to save his future so he can live in it peacefully. 

 

So no. He was never just jumping back and forth throughout time willy-nilly. He's never just done that. He had an objective to complete. And once he completes it he goes back to his own time because he knows that he can't stay in the past. And not only that, he doesn't want to stay in the past.

 

 

3. Silver's stuck in that tragety because the writers keep putting his future in danger to justify his need to go back to the past. All it does is screw with time, make things confusing, and show that they have a serious lack of imagination. However, the problem isn't solved by just keeping him in the past. Not only does it go against his character but it opens the door for his actions to alter how things happened in time and it leaves the future he wants to live in and protect, unprotected. We should never have to settle for the lesser of two evils when it comes to just including a character into a story. Choosing between one evil or another to include any character is something you should never have to do. Ever.

 

4. I said regulate the majority of his appearances to just an optional/unlockable playable character. If it's this risky to include him on a more regular basis within a story and if the folks over at Sonic Team can't come up with ways to constantly vi-pass the nonsense they created for him than yeah, it's best just to handle it that way. Make his story appearances rare ones but keep him in everyone's minds as someone you can still play as on a more consistent basis. I'm sure there are ways to make him function correctly as a time traveler and not have it get stale or ridiculous. But not only do I doubt that there are a lot of feasible ones, I also doubt the creators are willing to explore any of them.

[Splash the Otter]

You know what? I'm sick and tired of discussing this. You seem obsessed with keeping Silver in the future, and I'm beginning to suspect that nothing I say will get through to you. Regardless, I would like you to understand why I took this position.

 

I really like Silver as a character, and want him to appear more in the games. The main problem is that by keeping him in the future, he's virtually unusable without bringing in time travel, and I hate time travel. And like you mentioned, there's only so many times it can be used before people get tired of it. As a result, we're left with two options: either get rid of Silver (or restrict his appearances to non-canon spinoff games), or find a good way to keep him in the past. While the first option is easier, it doesn't really solve anything and alienates those of us who like Silver. Meanwhile, the second option makes him more accessible, so if the writers think of a good plot they can use him in, they won't have to play the "time travel" card. Now tell me, is what I'm asking for really that unreasonable?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Yes, it is unreasonable. And the reason why is because you aren't bothering to look for more options that don't restrict things like that to just those two options.

Edited June 14, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonîc

[Splash the Otter]

Yes, it is unreasonable. And the reason why is because you aren't bothering to look for more options that don't restrict things like that to just those two options.

Well if you can think of ways to make Silver relevant without using time travel, let's hear them!

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Well if you can think of ways to make Silver relevant without using time travel, let's hear them!

I don't want to think of ways to make Silver relevant without using time travel, because I happen to like using time travel for him.

 

However, it isn't required to make time travel the central focus for him to be around. I'd say it's still required at it's most basic to explain how he got there and got dragged into the fray, but his whole being around afterwards doesn't have to require anything relating to saving the future.

 

Needless to say, anything he gets involved will obviously be because of him traveling through time and into the plot. What he does afterwards can be anything, such as stopping a war that doesn't have any consequences on his time period but something he gets involved into because he was litterally at the wrong place at the wrong time.

Edited June 14, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonîc

[Kuzu]

Yeah. Of course. It's obvious that it shouldn't prevent them from it, if they were smart enough to find ways to do it. And they have no excuse for not exploring what else can be done with him, if they can find a way to do so that doesn't screw around with the plot. They haven't yet though so... oh well. There are probably a few ways, but with his status being what it is, there probably aren't a whole lot to allow for constant continuous appearances. I'm avoiding an answer that just says have him do the same plot device over and over again.

 

 

 

Well I don't care for Silver enough to want to see him all of the time, but I just wish they'd find something for him to do when he does come back.

You know what? I'm sick and tired of discussing this. You seem obsessed with keeping Silver in the future, and I'm beginning to suspect that nothing I say will get through to you. Regardless, I would like you to understand why I took this position.

 

I really like Silver as a character, and want him to appear more in the games. The main problem is that by keeping him in the future, he's virtually unusable without bringing in time travel, and I hate time travel. And like you mentioned, there's only so many times it can be used before people get tired of it. As a result, we're left with two options: either get rid of Silver (or restrict his appearances to non-canon spinoff games), or find a good way to keep him in the past. While the first option is easier, it doesn't really solve anything and alienates those of us who like Silver. Meanwhile, the second option makes him more accessible, so if the writers think of a good plot they can use him in, they won't have to play the "time travel" card. Now tell me, is what I'm asking for really that unreasonable?

 

 

Yes, because you're trying to force Silver in a position he really isn't suited for. He's not a character designed for continuous appearances like say Tails or Amy, so it is unreasonable to expect him to show up constantly with a large role in spite of that. 

[Splash the Otter]

I don't want to think of ways to make Silver relevant without using time travel, because I happen to like using time travel for him.

 

However, it isn't required to make time travel the central focus for him to be around. I'd say it's still required at it's most basic to explain how he got there and got dragged into the fray, but his whole being around afterwards doesn't have to require anything relating to saving the future.

The thing is, I don't like using time travel for him. I want to focus more on his psychokinesis, and the way he interacts with the other characters. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against using Silver in stories with time travel. What worries me is: what happens at the end of the game? If he goes back to his own time, then we have a problem. Why? I'll explain. First of all, it means that the next time someone wants to use him in a story, they'll have to use time travel again, and like Crystal said, that plot device can only be employed so many times before it gets old. Second, it implies that the status quo has no place for Silver, and that he doesn't "belong" in Sonic's world. Finally, isn't the whole "from the future" thing the reason people accuse him of being a "Trunks ripoff"? I think the sooner that gets cleared up, the better!

 

I would like to repeat that this isn't a binary system. Silver living in Sonic's time period doesn't preclude him, or any other character, from traveling through time. All it does is make him more available for stories that don't have any time travel in them. Thus, we can both get what we want!

 

But you know what? I think we've talked enough about Silver. I believe somebody mentioned Cream earlier, why not talk about her?

Edited June 14, 2013 by ElectroKyurem

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

The thing is, I don't like using time travel for him. I want to focus more on his psychokinesis, and the way he interacts with the other characters. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against using Silver in stories with time travel. What worries me is: what happens at the end of the game? If he goes back to his own time, then we have a problem. Why? I'll explain. First of all, it means that the next time someone wants to use him in a story, they'll have to use time travel again, and like Crystal said, that plot device can only be employed so many times before it gets old. Second, it implies that the status quo has no place for Silver, and that he doesn't "belong" in Sonic's world. Finally, isn't the whole "from the future" thing the reason people accuse him of being a "Trunks ripoff"? I think the sooner that gets cleared up, the better!

 

For Silver, time travel is a necessity for him simply being around. And what's more is that it's an aspect of him that makes him far more unique from the rest of the cast who live in the present, comparable only to Blaze who lives in a completely separate dimension of her own. How does using time travel simply as an explanation for how he got to the present prevent us from focusing on his psychokinesis or disallow him from interacting with other characters? Because as far as I see it, it doesn't.

 

At the end of the game, when he goes back to his own time, here's a thought over how to have him around: engineer a way to bring him back with it. Heck, the time stones and chaos emeralds are useful enough to circumvent all these problems it itself and if you want you can keep him around for extra game or so before sending him back and allowing him a break so that you could come up with fresh new ideas the next time you want him back.

 

In a chronological sense, Silver doesn't belong in Sonic's present world - he belongs in it's future world where he resides. Doesn't mean he can't visit the present from time to time and stay an extended period before going back. I couldn't care less about him being an intentional "Trunks ripoff" when I'd like to see him become his own character.

Edited June 14, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonîc

[Splash the Otter]

CSS, have you never heard of compromise? I already said that I don't like when games use time travel, but I'm not demanding that the concept be removed from the series. What you want does limit Silver, because whenever he appears, he'll be forced to use the "time travel" excuse for how he got there.

 

Here's something I think we can both accept. While not strictly required to have him in any game, time travel is initially needed to show how Silver reaches Sonic's time period. From there, he can still be used in games with time travel, but he can also appear in games without that plot device. In essence, this is very much like what you want, but gives Silver a bit more freedom. If you like, we can even give him a time stone to facilitate the plots that use time travel!

 

Ultimately, I think that a character should always be more versatile than any plot devices they're associated with. Silver can be a time traveler if you want it so badly, but he should be more than just a time traveler.

[Kuzu]

If you wanna keep things simple, you can use time travel to explain how Silver constantly goes to Sonic's time, but its not a plot point that needs to be focused on whenever he does appear.

 

Its like in the Mega Man crossover. Silver's there because of a rift in time, but that's hardly the focus of the character in question in terms of the story arc.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

CSS, have you never heard of compromise?

Maybe. Most people don't seem to like compromising it when I suggest it.

 

I already said that I don't like when games use time travel, but I'm not demanding that the concept be removed from the series. What you want does limit Silver, because whenever he appears, he'll be forced to use the "time travel" excuse for how he got there.

Well yeah, he lives in the future. He has to use the "time travel" excuse to be around. It's not really limiting because that doesn't have to be what the plot is about, which is what I was saying.

 

 

Here's something I think we can both accept. While not strictly required to have him in any game, time travel is initially needed to show how Silver reaches Sonic's time period. From there, he can still be used in games with time travel, but he can also appear in games without that plot device. In essence, this is very much like what you want, but gives Silver a bit more freedom. If you like, we can even give him a time stone to facilitate the plots that use time travel!

That is absolutely no different to what I've been saying. Not much of a compromise than repeating what I said.

Edited June 15, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonîc

[Jolt_TH]

What about having a Time Travelers Wife situation? Whereby say Silver has an accident with the Chaos emeralds in the future or the time stones or SOMETHING and the resulting effect is that sometimes he will randomly jump between times uncontrollably? Could make for some comic relief if he were to just randomly disappear during a scene, or during a plan and it messes up due to his disappearance?

Dunno just an idea. But I do agree that he wouldn't just travel back to Sonics time willy-nilly of his own accord

[Tenko]

I don't get why he has to be a constantly returning character? Or has to come back at all. Sonic has had a fair few non returning characters. Even recently, for example unless they do another Rush game or game based in Blazes world, what's the likelyhood of Marine coming back? Besides cameos in info/card form etc whats the likelyhood of Tikal coming back? They had their purpose in the game they were from, they filled that purpose and regardless of how many people liked them, they had done their piece and were then left to be remembered for the part they played in said game.

Silver had his game, his story got wiped via the ending, presumably his world/dimension/time got all fixed. As other have said, he has no purpose to come flitting back and forth. That and with the time travel and everything being fixed, plus it was put back to before the events of the game, so technically he shouldn't even know about Sonic and pals and have no reason to visit them.

Sure he has fans, sure they wouldn't wanna see him go, but so do all the other unused characters. They had to "get over it" so why should it be any different for him just cause he is newer. Unless they retcon his original story and his original purpose he really has no place in the main games anymore. His quest was completed successfully, you should all be happy for him!!

[Splash the Otter]

I don't get why he has to be a constantly returning character? Or has to come back at all. Sonic has had a fair few non returning characters. Even recently, for example unless they do another Rush game or game based in Blazes world, what's the likelyhood of Marine coming back? Besides cameos in info/card form etc whats the likelyhood of Tikal coming back? They had their purpose in the game they were from, they filled that purpose and regardless of how many people liked them, they had done their piece and were then left to be remembered for the part they played in said game.

Silver had his game, his story got wiped via the ending, presumably his world/dimension/time got all fixed. As other have said, he has no purpose to come flitting back and forth. That and with the time travel and everything being fixed, plus it was put back to before the events of the game, so technically he shouldn't even know about Sonic and pals and have no reason to visit them.

Sure he has fans, sure they wouldn't wanna see him go, but so do all the other unused characters. They had to "get over it" so why should it be any different for him just cause he is newer. Unless they retcon his original story and his original purpose he really has no place in the main games anymore. His quest was completed successfully, you should all be happy for him!!

Considering his original story and purpose completely undersold his potential, I don't see why we should "get over it".

[Diogenes]

Why is it that every time I see someone talking about something's "potential", they're always incredibly vague about what exactly it is.

[Tenko]

Considering his original story and purpose completely undersold his potential, I don't see why we should "get over it".

People on this forum have said that a fair few of the "lost" characters have potential too, yourself included. Again how does that make Silver any different and less of a candidate to end up like them? Add to that he wasn't even intended for a Sonic game in the first place.

I'm not picketing for his removal, I actually enjoyed his parts in '06 more than the others due to the mechanics and the use of his abilities etc. I'm just trying to figure out what makes him any less a candidate than the others when fans and potential haven't mattered in the past when they decided to discontinue a character.

[Splash the Otter]

People on this forum have said that a fair few of the "lost" characters have potential too, yourself included. Again how does that make Silver any different and less of a candidate to end up like them? Add to that he wasn't even intended for a Sonic game in the first place.

I'm not picketing for his removal, I actually enjoyed his parts in '06 more than the others due to the mechanics and the use of his abilities etc. I'm just trying to figure out what makes him any less a candidate than the others when fans and potential haven't mattered in the past when they decided to discontinue a character.

To be fair, the only "lost" character that I think has any potential is Fang, and I still say he shouldn't have been scrapped. With Silver, I want to see more application of both his psychokinesis and his desire to stop bad things from happening, since those are what I consider to be the best aspects of his character. I'd be fine if they didn't use him very often, but I don't want him to just disappear entirely.

[Kuzu]

If we lost Silver, we wouldn't be losing much beyond just another hedgehog but I don't really feel he should leave either. People were bemoaning when Big was put on the shelf, and he was hated for the most part.

[Diogenes]

Big was cool tho'.

By ditching Silver we're just freeing up a cool power for someone who doesn't suck.

[Splash the Otter]

Big was cool tho'.

By ditching Silver we're just freeing up a cool power for someone who doesn't suck.

Dio, I think you're letting your hatred of Silver get in the way of logic. What makes you think anyone would like a new character with psychokinesis? I would feel completely alienated by this new character, and would be unable to see them as anything but "not-Silver". It would be much easier, and a lot more satisfactory for everyone, if they just made Silver not suck. I'm sure CSS can back me up on this.

Edited June 24, 2013 by ElectroKyurem

[Diogenes]

Wasn't hard to get people to like Shadow, even though he was encroaching on Metal Sonic's "evil Sonic" territory. And Metal was actually well-designed; it shouldn't be hard to outdo Silver.

[Kuzu]

Wasn't hard to get people to like Shadow, even though he was encroaching on Metal Sonic's "evil Sonic" territory. And Metal was actually well-designed; it shouldn't be hard to outdo Silver.

 

Yea, but Shadow & Metal exist side by side

[Tenko]

Not that his design looked that much different as a Mink but I do think it would have helped Silvers case a bit more if he wasn't another hedgehog. A lot of the Shadow and Silver complaints are usually accompanied by people noting they are hedgehogs and ones that aren't that dissimilar from Sonic at that.

So many animals they could have picked if they didn't wanna go through with the Mink thing and they pick another hedgehog? I think a lot of the love for Nack comes from not only his perceived character (usually from the comics) and that he's a baddie which the series is lacking. But his design is so unique compared to a few of the other lost characters.

If they did bring Silver back in a bigger way but changed him on a bigger scale than the Chaotix and made him a different animal perhaps as well as the backstory retcon perhaps he wouldn't get as much hate? Or would that still give people that like him the "not Silver" vibe?

Edited June 24, 2013 by Tenko

[Splash the Otter]

Wasn't hard to get people to like Shadow, even though he was encroaching on Metal Sonic's "evil Sonic" territory. And Metal was actually well-designed; it shouldn't be hard to outdo Silver.

Except that Shadow was hardly an "evil Sonic" to begin with, and his abilities are vastly different from those of Metal Sonic. And as Azure already pointed out, Shadow and Metal coexist, while you're trying to outright replace Silver with this hypothetical new character!

 

Not that his design looked that much different as a Mink but I do think it would have helped Silvers case a bit more if he wasn't another hedgehog. A lot of the Shadow and Silver complaints are usually accompanied by people noting they are hedgehogs and ones that aren't that dissimilar from Sonic at that.

So many animals they could have picked if they didn't wanna go through with the Mink thing and they pick another hedgehog? I think a lot of the love for Nack comes from not only his perceived character (usually from the comics) and that he's a baddie which the series is lacking. But his design is so unique compared to a few of the other lost characters.

If they did bring Silver back in a bigger way but changed him on a bigger scale than the Chaotix and made him a different animal perhaps as well as the backstory retcon perhaps he wouldn't get as much hate? Or would that still give people that like him the "not Silver" vibe?

I expect a lot of people would disagree, but I think making him a mink would be a good idea. I know you could make an argument for his being Silver in name only, but I imagine that if the important things (such as his name, appearance*, and psychokinesis) were left intact, there wouldn't be much of a problem.

 

*I'd advise making his crest smaller and less prone to marijuana jokes, as well as giving him a longer, more mink-like tail. Otherwise, he shouldn't look too different from his current design.

Edited June 24, 2013 by ElectroKyurem

[Diogenes]

Except that Shadow was hardly an "evil Sonic" to begin with,

Like hell he wasn't. Are you forgetting the whole "faker" bit that drove like half the story?

and his abilities are vastly different from those of Metal Sonic.

They share the trait of competing with Sonic in speed. Hell the only ability Shadow has that isn't about that is Chaos Spear; gameplaywise Sonic and Shadow were identical (save for two upgrades), and in the scene where they first met Chaos Control was used specifically for Shadow to outspeed Sonic. Remember that SA2 was before Shadow went full Vegeta, and when Metal wasn't much more than "Sonic with sparks".

And as Azure already pointed out, Shadow and Metal coexist, while you're trying to outright replace Silver with this hypothetical new character!

Yeah? What difference does it make? It's not like people haven't accused Shadow of replacing Metal and Knuckles as Sonic's rival, and it's not like that's done anything to stop him having hordes of fanboys. I doubt being a "replacement" simply because they have the same power would even trigger that kind of defensiveness anyway.