modern demo?

[Spooky Mulder]

I'm going to step a bit out of my usual role and agree with Dio for once. In the interest of full disclosure, I haven't played the demo yet so I can only speak based on what I've seen, but I do think Green Hill Zone is a little bit too linear and empty. In the background of the level there are some cool wider areas that have been designed that aren't accessible and that's unfortunate.

Unlike Dio, I'm pleased with the game overall and I still think I'll find Modern Green Hill enjoyable. That being said, I think the stage is a missed opportunity and I'm pleased that later levels look much less linear.

[Indigo Rush]

I really think we should just move general discussion about game design philosophy regarding Sonic to a more appropriate topic than the demo topic, because seeing the same old crap surface about "oh Sonic needs to be more open there isn't enough of a challenge" and "Sonic's fine the way he is stop trolling" is really starting to give me an aneurysm.

Seriously, I'm starting to taste metal and I'm seeing spots, and I'm pretty sure that wasn't because I had 50 rings before hitting the Star Post.

[Voyant]

I didn't catch this honestly.

What's wrong with a level that serves as a great introduction and also has plenty of hidden stuff to find when you come back to it?

Edited October 20, 2011 by V0YANT

[SpeedsMyGame]

Have they ever?

After platinuming Unleashed, I can say they have. I did have to force myself to play through those dreadful Werehog stages, but Daytime Sonic's stages were fun as hell. And were a great challenge.

Okay, so why can't they design a level that works for both new players and more experienced ones? Why can't there be more complex paths and obstacles that newbies can avoid? Hell, we've got upgradeable skills, why can't they put a light dash chain somewhere that'll take you to a new section of the level specifically for people who know what they're doing?

Isn't that what they're doing?

There are clearly routes that for the most part skilled players could nail with ease, and without any hesitation, but there are also routes for less skilled players, basically the middle to lower routes. After 3-4 playthroughs of Modern Green Hill, I was able to blast through all the quickest routes without a problem.

After all, the level is fairly easy, like every entry level to a platformer. There never really isn't a such thing as a challenging 1st level, I'd like to know some if you have run across them.

My little bro, who's 9, played the level about 7-8 times. And memorized it for the most part, but couldn't nail the timing to hit some of the routes.

He usually finished using the middle to lower routes. But of course, in Green Hill, you won't be punished too much for not always taking the top paths or falling down.

Sonic games have always rewarded skilled players for taking the best routes, but also provides a route for those who cannot nail all the short cuts and whatnot. Those faster paths also provide the challenge of staying above the stage, and not falling down. In the end, it's all about mastering the level layout. Knowing which branching routes work best.

I can accept that you absolutely despise this form of gameplay(Modern), you have every right to be entitled to your opinion on the game.

But I must say, you kinda have unrealistic expectations for a 1st level. Back in the late 80's and early 90's when tutorial stages didn't exist and it was you and you instruction booklet vs. the World, your argument would have a lot of ground. But it's 2011, and there is a broader audience that must be catered to since the market has been greatly expanded. I don't think any of us are entitled to say our need should have favor over theirs(more casual players), I'd like a challenging game. But I'd also like a game that any Sonic fan could pick up and play, and nothing that will scare younger fans, or even ones that aren't as skilled away.

I feel this game just might be a mix of both.

Edited October 20, 2011 by SpeedsMyGame

[Diogenes]

Because whether you like it or not Green Hill is sadly very Iconic to Sonic's Heritage...it started it all...and due to the fact this is an Anniversary title. It not being here would be kinda empty.

So if it's so important, why does it have to be relegated to tutorial status?

Isn't that what they're doing?

No. Modern GHZ is a terribly simple and linear level.

After all, the level is fairly easy, like every entry level to a platformer. There never really isn't a such thing as a challenging 1st level, I'd like to know some if you have run across them.

It's not about difficulty, it's about complexity.

Back in the late 80's and early 90's when tutorial stages didn't exist and it was you and you instruction booklet vs. the World, your argument would have a lot of ground. But it's 2011, and there is a broader audience that must be catered to since the market has been greatly expanded.

I swear, sometimes I don't know why I even bother. I already said that I DO NOT WANT TO GET RID OF THE TUTORIAL ASPECT. The only way you can make this post is by assuming I am saying something stupid and selfish rather than reading what I've actually written.

[Kuzu]

It seems people don't learn from history, for god's sake people, let. it. go., if Dio wants to hate GHZ, let him.

Edited October 20, 2011 by Shadic93

[Chaos Warp]

I'm sorry if this is off topic, but I just had to get this out.

I don't see why having Unleashed level design is that big of a problem. Sure, it's not ideal, but reaction-time based gameplay is a natural progression for Sonic (besides the lack of platforming), in my opinion, and I would be happy to see a level that was half SSH/SS modern and half reaction-time based areas. I would also hope the the Modern levels in Generations are a mixed bag, with SSH/SS being the slow/heavy platforming extreme, and GH being the other extreme.

That's all I will say on the matter. Again, sorry if this is off topic.

[SpeedsMyGame]

So if it's so important, why does it have to be relegated to tutorial status?

Well, it's the Sonic stage that every one familiar with. Perfect way to open the game, and introduce newbies to the mechanics of the game. No need to get more COMPLEX than that.

No. Modern GHZ is a terribly simple and linear level.

It's not about difficulty, it's about complexity.

Please define your definition of complexity. Complex often leads to complication, why do they need to make anything in the 1st level complex? You should start maybe using another word, perhaps variety is what you mean. It's already complex in a sense, but not heavily.

I swear, sometimes I don't know why I even bother. I already said that I DO NOT WANT TO GET RID OF THE TUTORIAL ASPECT. The only way you can make this post is by assuming I am saying something stupid and selfish rather than reading what I've actually written.

Sorry, you retracted your statement while I was typing my last post, there was no way I could've seen it. But instead of breaking apart post, and completely ignoring the strong points in those post, you should rightfully answer them. Without trying to branch even more arguments, I'm here for friendly discussion, not to argue.

Edited October 20, 2011 by SpeedsMyGame

[Johnny Boy]

Oh look another arguement about level design can't we all get along? Smh

[SpeedsMyGame]

It seems people don't learn from history, for god's sake people, let. it. go., if Dio wants to hate GHZ, let him.

I'm sure everyones ok with him hating it.

This is a discussion board after all, I think it's great to discuss the weak points and strong points in the game... in a civil matter(no cussing, name calling, insults, etc.).

[Legendary Emerald]

Christ, been playing all day and my best time on modern is only 1:55... I keep fucking up on the section where you have to slide under a wall, then jump up and homing attack a crab, then a wasp. keep jumping too early or too late to hit the crab. I just BARELY hit the crab that last run, but had to slow down to do so. I'm sure I can get my time down to at least 1:53 if I work a bit harder...

This has been the most addictive demo I have ever played. Anyone saying it's too simple is obviously not trying to speed run it. XD

[Kuzu]

I'm sure everyones ok with him hating it.

This is a discussion board after all, I think it's great to discuss the weak points and strong points in the game... in a civil matter(no cussing, name calling, insults, etc.).

Everytime someone argues with Dio it always delves into a war that basically boils down too>

My opinion is better than yours, for 2 whole fucking pages, and its annoying.

[SpeedsMyGame]

Oh look another arguement about level design can't we all get along? Smh

Can't people discuss a topic on these boards without it being labeled a war??

No one is right or wrong here, if I state my opinion, Dio has all the right to not agree or state his. Vice-versa.

Everytime someone argues with Dio it always delves into a war that basically boils down too>

My opinion is better than yours, for 2 whole fucking pages, and its annoying.

I see, I try to avoid it though, as soon as the insults start, I try to stop though.

Does anyone know why they removed camera control??

I just feel awkward playing a 3D platformer without it mapped to the right stick

Christ, been playing all day and my best time on modern is only 1:55... I keep fucking up on the section where you have to slide under a wall, then jump up and homing attack a crab, then a wasp. keep jumping too early or too late to hit the crab. I just BARELY hit the crab that last run, but had to slow down to do so. I'm sure I can get my time down to at least 1:53 if I work a bit harder...

This has been the most addictive demo I have ever played. Anyone saying it's too simple is obviously not trying to speed run it. XD

I still can't believe someone on here broke into the 1:40's.

I've tried everything, absolutely everything.

[Diogenes]

Well, it's the Sonic stage that every one familiar with. Perfect way to open the game, and introduce newbies to the mechanics of the game. No need to get more COMPLEX than that.

No reason not to make it more complex than that.

Please define your definition of complexity. Complex often leads to complication, why do they need to make anything in the 1st level complex? You should start maybe using another word, perhaps variety is what you mean. It's already complex in a sense, but not heavily.

The idea is that the level can have its simple and easy routes for new players, and more involved and, yes, difficult, routes for more experienced ones (either people who have been following the series for a while or new players after having played through the rest of the game). Thing is, as long as there are those simple routes, the overall difficulty of the level doesn't increase much by adding other harder ones, but the complexity certainly does.

Sorry, you retracted your statement while I was typing my last post, there was no way I could've seen it.

I didn't retract shit; in the very post you quoted I was asking for a level that can serve both new and experienced players. That's been my stance since I got into this discussion.

But instead of breaking apart post, and completely ignoring the strong points in those post, you should rightfully answer them.

I responded to everything I felt needed a response. What "strong points" do you think I missed?

Does anyone know why they removed camera control??

Probably because they still use sections where the controls break if the camera isn't facing the right way. Edited October 20, 2011 by Diogenes

[ソウル]

I think this is worth mentioning.

Around 3:08-3:10 he just falls through. :v A glitch...

[Voyant]

I think this is worth mentioning.

Around 3:08-3:10 he just falls through. :v A glitch...

Its not a glitch he died because he was upside down in the spiral and tried to roll.

Edited October 20, 2011 by V0YANT

[Jacky]

Jesus guys

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mnIKVbxiUs&feature=channel_video_title

Chillax guys, quit gettin mad at vidya games

Also, fuuuuuuu why we ps3fags have to wait another week.

[SpeedsMyGame]

No reason not to make it more complex than that.

The idea is that the level can have its simple and easy routes for new players, and more involved and, yes, difficult, routes for more experienced ones (either people who have been following the series for a while or new players after having played through the rest of the game). Thing is, as long as there are those simple routes, the overall difficulty of the level doesn't increase much by adding other harder ones, but the complexity certainly does.

I didn't retract shit; in the very post you quoted I was asking for a level that can serve both new and experienced players. That's been my stance since I got into this discussion.

I responded to everything I felt needed a response. What "strong points" do you think I missed?

Probably because they still use sections where the controls break if the camera isn't facing the right way.

I would like to respond to you directly, but I won't. I guess you see things differently.

But I'm going to stop before I get reported or something.

On these boards, if you try and have a discussion. You are either mad/upset, arguing, overreacting, etc. Don't get me wrong, I like talking with my fellow Sonic fans, but I'm tired of people thinking that I'm trying to prove someone wrong, as a opposed to having a rational discussion. Meanwhile, I'm just on my computer excited for the game, trying to have a discussion, even with people not too fond of the game.

The Internet will never grow up. Not everything is an uncivil argument.

Edited October 20, 2011 by SpeedsMyGame

[Autoburstfire]

Has anyone else noticed that we can actually go completely back on that looped wooden bridge halfway though the map now on Classic Green Hill?

That's kinda cool.

[Kuzu]

I would like to respond, but I won't.

On these boards, if you try and have a discussion. You are either mad/upset, arguing, overreacting, etc.

I'm tired of people thinking that I'm trying to prove someone wrong, as a opposed to having a rational discussion.

The Internet will never grow up.

Or, you can agree to disagree like two gentlemen based on the fact that it seems you two won't come to an understanding.

[SuperGuzzi]

I think... Dio is right, just think about it, if in almost every level, you have a relative easy path (relative with the number of the level, GHZ= easy, PW= hard), that you can use when you are new, and the hard path, that path is more complex, more enemies, but if you know what are you doing, you can save a lot of time, also, there should be the red rings, is a great idea for players, both will have fun and add more replay value to the game.

You know, i'm starting to understand you, Dio, it's not like you hate the game or something, just because you like to complaint, is more like you want the best for the game, and the franchise, without complains, the games will be always worse, we are having progress in Sonic games thanks to complainers, and it's not like you say just X thing is bad, you give valid reasons and justifications.

[Solid SOAP]

What about the red rings and other collectables? People keep saying that there's no depth to acts and no insentive to take the best route, but considering that every level is going to be loaded with collectables, I'm sure that more than makes up for GHZ's supposed simplicity.

[Diogenes]

Collectibles are nice...until you've found them. Good level design can be replayed many times.

[Soniman]

And so I shall add another point to the "Dio is always right" counter

[jords]

my best time so far is 1:53:92 hope i can do better