modern demo?

[Drunk Michael Myers]

Because you're not playing the game very well?

In Sonic 1 you could hit a loop by just running. Here you have to run down a slope to go through one.

I saw something on neogaf where people also complained about this. They simply think this is because the loops are too big so Sonic looses his momentum to soon.

Sonic Unleashed was also 30 frames per second for the Xbox 360...the PS3 version had 60fps but it was unstable!

Fastpased 2D gameplay with 3D graphics in 30fps is what im talking about. And that the camrea zooms in close to Sonic in some places doesn't make it better.

3D-Sonic i have no problem with.

Edited October 20, 2011 by Michael Myers

[TrueBlue]

Serious as I've ever been.

I think it's a load of crap.

It's obvious that if you design a game around one set of mechanics, you can't apply an entirely different set of mechanics to those levels and expect everything to work out. The problem is that Sonic Team made this faux-classic gameplay to start with, then built levels around it. If they knew what they were doing, they would've gotten the gameplay right first, and the level design would naturally follow.

Plus, I'm not asking for a 100% identical engine. I don't mind tweaking the engine, as long as two things are true; one, it makes the game better, and two, it remains faithful to the core concepts. If the levels are too big for 100% Genesis-accurate rolling physics, then have Sonic gain more speed while rolling down slopes. It would take some time to adjust, but it wouldn't violate either of those two rules. At the very least, I can't see it being worse than having the roll as useless as it is in Generations.

And I don't deny that Generations is worlds better than '06, and a bit better than Unleashed. That does not in any way leave it free from criticism, nor does it require me to be satisfied with this level of quality. I do not believe Generations is an A+ game. Or an A-. Or a B. At the moment it's sitting somewhere around the C+/B- area, and I don't find that acceptable.

And if he really thinks being bothered by something as major as the broken-ass rolling is reinforcing negative stereotypes, he's got a pretty warped view of things. And I've got to wonder what he thinks of the stereotypical fanboy who will support any crap with Sonic's face on it, regardless of the quality.

I wasn't referring to the modern gameplay. The modern gameplay is fairly competently made, but based on bad ideas. It's the classic gameplay that was programmed by a brain-damaged monkey.

I think a B or above is pretty good for any video game, but different strokes for different folks I suppose.

Is anyone else finding it weird that Sonic didn't seem to have trouble with that first loop beforehand but suddenly does now? If I remember correctly in the first demo, he didn't have that problem. They way he just falls off is irking me a bit as well. It seems more like a glitch than anything else.

[Scar]

Serious as I've ever been.

I think it's a load of crap.

It's obvious that if you design a game around one set of mechanics, you can't apply an entirely different set of mechanics to those levels and expect everything to work out. The problem is that Sonic Team made this faux-classic gameplay to start with, then built levels around it. If they knew what they were doing, they would've gotten the gameplay right first, and the level design would naturally follow.

Plus, I'm not asking for a 100% identical engine. I don't mind tweaking the engine, as long as two things are true; one, it makes the game better, and two, it remains faithful to the core concepts. If the levels are too big for 100% Genesis-accurate rolling physics, then have Sonic gain more speed while rolling down slopes. It would take some time to adjust, but it wouldn't violate either of those two rules. At the very least, I can't see it being worse than having the roll as useless as it is in Generations.

The game probably wasn't designed with classic sonic in mind. I reckon it was designed to have 3D Modern Gameplay as we know it, and 2D Rush-esque gameplay. However, the massive shitstorm created by Sonic 4 must have influenced them to create the classic style late in development, when most of the designing had been done.

This is evident from how well Modern Sonic fit into the classic stage when Polygon/Pegleg Jimmy hacked him into the classic version of the stage.

I think the only reason Classic Sonic is here at all, is because Sonic Team felt pressured to bring it back, even though there is no real reason to do so (though it certainly seems to have done the job in attracting many a classic Sonic fan)

I wasn't referring to the modern gameplay. The modern gameplay is fairly competently made, but based on bad ideas. It's the classic gameplay that was programmed by a brain-damaged monkey.

Subjective. I don't think they're bad ideas. I think they can work pretty well if done right and can ultimately produce a memorable and fun experience.

Green Hill Zone is an average-poor zone which serves little more purpose than to introduce the mechanics to the player. The rest isn't like that. Heck as linear and speed-orientated Chemical Plant is, it isn't that bad. Sky Sanctuary is an A+ designed stage, no denying it.

As far as I see it, you've come into this game expecting not to like it. So you never will, even if it does certain things you want it to. The boost just seems to kill everything for you and for no good reason any more.

[Indigo Rush]

I think it's a load of crap.

What else is news?

And I don't deny that Generations is worlds better than '06, and a bit better than Unleashed. That does not in any way leave it free from criticism, nor does it require me to be satisfied with this level of quality. I do not believe Generations is an A+ game. Or an A-. Or a B. At the moment it's sitting somewhere around the C+/B- area, and I don't find that acceptable.

Well of course it isn't free from criticism, however your criticisms are entirely subjective on the merits of your own interpretation of what you want the game to play like. Things like the occasional automation areas are certainly subject to scrutiny, and everyone here wants rolling to be improved, but as for how much it breaks the game, it's over-exaggerated. If you want to give it a C, go right ahead, I've already passed this sucker to the next grade level, and told him to work on his rolling skills if he wants to continue on with straight A's.

And if he really thinks being bothered by something as major as the broken-ass rolling is reinforcing negative stereotypes, he's got a pretty warped view of things. And I've got to wonder what he thinks of the stereotypical fanboy who will support any crap with Sonic's face on it, regardless of the quality.

First on the major bit, I can make it from point A to point B and have a great time without the rolling physics hindering me one bit. Doesn't seem like a major flaw if the game is designed to work with it.

Second off, he says he's as much a retro purist as anybody else on those forums. What I want to ask YOU is why you seem to relegate everyone who disagrees with you as said "stereotypical fanboy who will support any crap with Sonic's face on it, regardless of the quality." I really can't see you explaining this one away after your consistent railing on 3D Sonic gameplay and anyone who supports it. I don't think you're any better.

I wasn't referring to the modern gameplay. The modern gameplay is fairly competently made, but based on bad ideas.

Bad ideas by your own personal standards, sure.

It's the classic gameplay that was programmed by a brain-damaged monkey.

No one here's really laughing at that one. Sonic 4 was programmed by a brain-damaged monkey.

The boost just seems to kill everything for you and for no good reason any more.

Different speeds for different keeds.

Edited October 20, 2011 by Indigo Rush

[SilentDoom]

Once they really nail the correct formula for their Sonic games, I feel that Sega really need to start thinking about creative level gimmicks. The reason why Mario games work so well is the mix of a beautifully constructed engine combined with cool level gimmicks. However, these kind of gimmicks need to be ones that ADD to the gameplay rather than interfere with it. I'm not talking about stuff like the Werehog and the talking sword. I'm talking about stuff like the pinball machines and the clouds you bounce on in Sky Sanctuary etc etc as well as power-ups like the Elemental Shields and the Wisps.

You see, this in my opinion is a large part of the reason why the Classics were so successful and the Adventure games are appreciated as much as they are. They have cool and varied level and platforming gimmicks to go alongside the well constructed levels.

As regards to Generations' Modern gameplay, since this is most likely the direction Sonic will be going in from now on I think we're on the right track. It's fair to say, control wise, the formula is near perfection. Sonic controls and handles like a dream. The one thing that may make it overall a little more balanced is if they make it so the boost makes you accelerate faster rather than instantaneously making you reach top speed. Levels like Sky Sanctuary and Seaside Hill prove that excellent level design is indeed possible with this formula, and both have their own level gimmick to spice things up (again, the clouds for Sky Sanctuary and the cannons and car for Seaside Hill).

I have high hopes for Sega in the future. I feel they've found what works and the vast majority agree. Now all they need to do is keep fine tuning it as time goes on and keep their level ideas fresh and creative. Then, not only will Generations be good, but the mainstream Sonic games after that will be good too, and Sonic will be back on the road to glory again. No character in gaming has been beaten down and got up time and time again like Sonic has. It's quite astonishing really.

[Diogenes]

The game probably wasn't designed with classic sonic in mind. I reckon it was designed to have 3D Modern Gameplay as we know it, and 2D Rush-esque gameplay. However, the massive shitstorm created by Sonic 4 must have influenced them to create the classic style late in development, when most of the designing had been done.

This is evident from how well Modern Sonic fit into the classic stage when Polygon/Pegleg Jimmy hacked him into the classic version of the stage.

I think the only reason Classic Sonic is here at all, is because Sonic Team felt pressured to bring it back, even though there is no real reason to do so (though it certainly seems to have done the job in attracting many a classic Sonic fan)

Even if this is all true, it doesn't give me any reason not to bash the game.

Subjective.

Opinions are subjective? Holy fuck no one ever told me before!

Sky Sanctuary is an A+ designed stage, no denying it.

Subjective. Or does that only work on negative things?

As far as I see it, you've come into this game expecting not to like it.

I came into it with caution, over how many times I've been burned before. The game's given me very little reason to like it.

So you never will

A convenient response, as it allows you to dismiss everything I say out of hand. Clearly it's just crazy old Dio, hating for hating's sake.

For all the "live and let live" that's been directed at me, it's amazing how so many people insist that I'm a broken human being rather than someone with a legitimate grievance that you simply disagree with.

Well of course it isn't free from criticism, however your criticisms are entirely subjective on the merits of your own interpretation of what you want the game to play like.

If criticisms are subjective, praise is equally subjective. And if we're on equal terms, why is it only criticism that gets bashed and told that it's "just an opinion"?

First on the major bit, I can make it from point A to point B and have a great time without the rolling physics hindering me one bit. Doesn't seem like a major flaw if the game is designed to work with it.

See, the problem is, this isn't any old game, or even any old Sonic game. This is, supposedly, "classic Sonic". When you do something like that, it kind of requires you to meet certain guidelines. And as rolling was one of the biggest mechanics of (actual) classic Sonic, that kind of needs to be there.

What I want to ask YOU is why you seem to relegate everyone who disagrees with you as said "stereotypical fanboy who will support any crap with Sonic's face on it, regardless of the quality."

If he's going to call me a stereotype, I'm going to call him a stereotype.

No one here's really laughing. Sonic 4 was programmed by a brain-damaged monkey.

Do you really want me to say it?

Generations Classic is just as bad as Sonic 4. It misses the point just as much, and it's programmed just as poorly.

[Indigo Rush]

I came into it with caution, over how many times I've been burned before.

No Wii version.

Gonna go kill myself.

Your exact words.

Generations Classic is just as bad as Sonic 4. It misses the point just as much, and it's programmed just as poorly.

You know this isn't true.

Edited October 20, 2011 by Indigo Rush

[Spooky Mulder]

Generations Classic is just as bad as Sonic 4. It misses the point just as much, and it's programmed just as poorly.

A Sonic game programmed with momentum is just as poorly programmed as a Sonic game that isn't programmed with momentum? I'm sorry Dio, but I can't even begin to to agree with you on this.

It's fair for you to criticize the Classic physics, but it's really unfair to say that they are just as poorly programmed as Sonic 4's.

Edited October 20, 2011 by SpookyMulder

[TrueBlue]

Moving swiftly on. We can hear some clear snippets of Roger's voice in this demo. I think he's changed his pitch to make it somewhat lighter and more energetic. Maybe he took some of those critiques into account? He seems like the type.

Edited October 20, 2011 by Ringo ~

[Diogenes]

Your exact words.

Something said on the spur of the moment, I'm sure. Also doesn't that completely contradict the idea that I went in expecting to hate it, anyway?

You know this isn't true.

A gamer programmed with momentum is just as poorly programmed as a game that isn't? I'm sorry Dio, but I can't even begin to to agree with you on this.

Broken-ass rolling vs broken-ass momentum. At least it's possible to roll through a loop in Sonic 4.

[Badnik Mechanic]

Generations Classic is just as bad as Sonic 4. It misses the point just as much, and it's programmed just as poorly.

Oh come on...

Yeah we get it, you don't like the game. But making up stuff is getting a bit daft.

[Red Cap]

Broken-ass rolling vs broken-ass momentum. At least it's possible to roll through a loop in Sonic 4.

But the rolling only shows up for only a small portion of play, it's not the ENTIRE game like Sonic 4 where EVERYTHING is the exact opposite of the classics physics engine. The rolling being real broked is the only thing wrong with C.Sonic in Generations that's really obvious.

I just cannot begin to understand this. I've held off on making posts about you since I got here because you've been ragged on since the first bits of footage came out but this makes no sense man...

Edited October 20, 2011 by Red Cap-Blue Spikes

[The Dead Skin]

Oh come on...

Yeah we get it, you don't like the game. But making up stuff is getting a bit daft.

Yeah, you don't have to drop a goddamn anvil on everyone, Dio.

Didn't the first paragraph already get the fucking message straight?!

[Xenos]

Something said on the spur of the moment, I'm sure. Also doesn't that completely contradict the idea that I went in expecting to hate it, anyway?

Broken-ass rolling vs broken-ass momentum. At least it's possible to roll through a loop in Sonic 4.

At least it's possible to enjoy my time, have fun, and feel like I'm playing a proper sonic game with Generations.

EDIT: Is it me, or do we get extra defensive when Dio says something negative, just wanted to say the above, but still...

Edited October 20, 2011 by Xenos

[Spooky Mulder]

Something said on the spur of the moment, I'm sure. Also doesn't that completely contradict the idea that I went in expecting to hate it, anyway?

Broken-ass rolling vs broken-ass momentum. At least it's possible to roll through a loop in Sonic 4.

Fine, let's say that the rolling is broken. It doesn't change the fact that in Sonic 4, Sonic drops like a rock no matter what speed he's going at and that this doesn't happen in Sonic Generations.

Edited October 20, 2011 by SpookyMulder

[Diogenes]

But the rolling only shows up for only a small portion of play,

Only because they've made an effort to cover up their shoddy engine. The level design is as classic as the rolling mechanics.

Fine, let's say that the rolling is broken. It doesn't change the fact that in Sonic 4, Sonic drops like a rock no matter what speed he's going at; this doesn't happen in Sonic Generations.

And Sonic can roll through a loop in Sonic 4 (as long as you hold forward). This doesn't happen in Generations. Edited October 20, 2011 by Diogenes

[Indigo Rush]

Something said on the spur of the moment, I'm sure. Also doesn't that completely contradict the idea that I went in expecting to hate it, anyway?

I was responding to "I proceeded with caution," not the idea that you expected to hate it. I never had that notion, because, well, "no Wii version."

Broken-ass rolling vs broken-ass momentum.

Broken momentum makes such a bigger dent into the experience than broken rolling that it's actually kind of funny that you're saying this. With Sonic Generations, I don't have to constantly hold Sonic in the direction that I want him to go when I'm in the middle of the air or rolling through a loop, nor do I feel compelled to press the jump button a second time when I see an enemy in front of me when I'm falling in the air right after uncurling.

At least it's possible to roll through a loop in Sonic 4.

I don't know about you, but the spindash kind of fixes that problem for me. As for rolling in Sonic 4, it only works as long as you're holding forward.

Edited October 20, 2011 by Indigo Rush

[Rinzler]

I'm experiencing a weird sense of deja vu in this topic.......

[The Dead Skin]

I'm experiencing a weird sense of deja vu in this topic.......

We're reached the Moebius.

[Scar]

I've given up.

Dio, I concede. Don't buy Generations, it seems that it will only make you frustrated. I on the other hand, will buy the game when my A-levels are done, and I'll have some fun.

See you November 1st.

[Phos]

It's been quoted in a few interviews with Aaron Webber, and mentioned in a few magazine and web articles, I'm sure. In addition to that, there are demo assets that explain what kind of missions there are in addition to the regular levels. The fact of the matter is that there is indeed a lot to do in this game.

If you are willing to take the time, here's one of the more prominent interviews with Aaron Webber regarding the more finished version of the game, and at around 5 minutes into the video he starts to talk about what kind of missions you can expect. (Also, enjoy some footage of Seaside Hill, with some of the best level design for Sonic games since the Dreamcast days, even moreso if you ask me!)

Also, I'm afraid I have to side with Voyant in regards to you not paying attention to the game since City Escape. You kind of jumped the fence a bit early and made the wrong assumption about missions before even looking into what the game had to offer. Taking that into consideration though, I guess it's reasonable to expect what you did after Sonic Unleashed, but those extra "missions" could hardly even be considered as such any more than ring/time/enemy attacks. I'm sure Generations will have those, but they aren't the same as one of the missions involving Tails carrying Sonic to higher ground in Chemical Plant or racing Knuckles in a version of Green Hill with massive enemies.

So now you can fight a giant enemy crab, and attack it's weakpoint for massive damage. Sonic Team did this for you.

So that sky sanctuary level, it splits, but they're still just hot wheels tracks, it's just like some kind of junction between tracks.

Ehhh, missions. That's still how I feel about it.

I'm actually not sure if you're being serious or not.

I've come across a rather insightful post on Sonic Retro by regular member "Eggomaticwaffles," and he seems to make perfect sense regarding the so-called "gimped" physics with Classic Sonic:

I would like to say that I wholeheartedly agree with this big lug right here.

So they need to keep the physics rather dire to make sure the poor levels still work. Not really surprising.

Edited October 20, 2011 by Phos

[SilentDoom]

And thus any hope of a rational discussion has now been set aflame....

[Diogenes]

I was responding to "I proceeded with caution," not the idea that you expected to hate it. I never had that notion, because, well, "no Wii version."

Well, once my initial usual "omg so awesome" reaction faded, and I had the ability to actually analyze what I was looking at, I went in cautiously.

Broken momentum makes such a bigger dent into the experience than broken rolling that it's actually kind of funny that you're saying this. With Sonic Generations, I don't have to constantly hold Sonic in the direction that I want him to go when I'm in the middle of the air or rolling through a loop, nor do I feel compelled to press the jump button a second time when I see an enemy in front of me when I'm falling in the air right after uncurling.

And in Sonic 4, it's actually possible to gain speed by rolling downhill. Which is one of the most basic and defining aspects of the classic games. I also don't feel compelled to do a near-instant spindash every time I want to go fast.

I don't know about you, but the spindash kind of fixes that problem for me. As for rolling in Sonic 4, it only works as long as you're holding forward.

So the spindash counts as a "fix", but holding forward doesn't? Many people have argued that Sonic 4's physics are fine once you adjust to them (by holding forward all the time). Are Generation's physics fine once you adjust to them (by using the spindash instead of rolling)?

edit: Honestly if you're defending Generations' crappy rolling, I have to wonder how the fuck you played the Genesis Sonics.

Edited October 20, 2011 by Diogenes

[Legendary Emerald]

Is anyone noticing any lag on the jump button in the PS3 version? Because someone on the internet has uploaded a very interesting video trying to prove it does.

Edited October 20, 2011 by Legendary Emerald

[Badnik Mechanic]

Is anyone noticing any lag on the jump button in the PS3 version? Because someone on the internet has uploaded a very interesting video trying to prove it does.

There isn't any lag on the PS3 version.