General Nintendo sales/business discussion topic (previously: The Wii U Thread)

[Marcello]

Makes you wonder with the removal of the Fifa series on Wii U that Konami could have scored BIG this holiday season with the PES series.

 

Most games weren't selling overall due to being rushed out, not as much effort as other versions, lack of advertising, and a lack of audience. Now with Nintendo pushing huge support on the Wii U very soon, I could see the audience rising and the market growing. It would be brilliant to take advantage of this situation to dominate the soccer market.

 

Reminds me of Battlefield 4. Call of Duty is the only shooter available on Wii U. People want BF4 but are left with no choice but to buy COD instead. Activision is taking those sales without any competition.

I assume the decision to not bring it was made before EA announced there'd be no Fifa on the Wii U.

[Carbo]

Then why not bring it to the Wii U and allow the same controls from the Wii games?

Opportunity cost. Unless you want the Wii U to carry the "it's just an upressed PSP game" much like Fifa 13 on Wii U being literally Fifa 12 but freshened up, and that's only going to make it look worse.

The truth people have to face is no one's going to want to go all out on publishing or even making games for the Wii U until Nintendo fix the console's situation which is a hole they themselves dug into. I'm not sure why this is a reality not many people are willing to accept.

[Patticus]

It's a hole any major publisher could fill, though, if they would only take the time to do so. If Nintendo fills it, they're probably still not going to be any better off with third parties due to the classic excuse that is, "Only Nintendo games sell on Nintendo platforms."

 

This is kind of why I want Retro to make a space opera/sci-shooter in a vein not unlike Prey, Killzone, Mass Effect etc; something which is distinct from Metroid but which still draws valuable lessons from it (alongside those other games and ones like them); using them to bring out a quality mass market shooter. If Nintendo wants to appeal to the whole family, then it's not doing nearly enough to appeal to the young men (and women too I guess) who like those sorts of games, which EA et al make. There's a big core audience for those kinds of games, and Nintendo is (seemingly) ignoring it, probably because of the prejudices of its Japanese leadership.

[Autosaver]

Opportunity cost. Unless you want the Wii U to carry the "it's just an upressed PSP game" much like Fifa 13 on Wii U being literally Fifa 12 but freshened up, and that's only going to make it look worse.

The truth people have to face is no one's going to want to go all out on publishing or even making games for the Wii U until Nintendo fix the console's situation which is a hole they themselves dug into. I'm not sure why this is a reality not many people are willing to accept.

 

Why would it be an upressed PSP game when the game is clearly stated to be coming out on 360 and PS3? At worst, it would be similar to the Fifa 13 being the same as the last game (had nothing to do with PSP graphics). If Konami got their heads together, they could have scored big with making the engine for Wii U and porting the game with lots of effort. Maybe delay the game a month for extra work?

 

The problem I have with the 'truth' is that this is the exact same situation that the 3DS faced. Nintendo left third party window open for launch (and they blew it with shitty ports), the price was high, not many people bought it, poor marketing, etc. Is it not silly to see a huge jump in sales after E3? Maybe it would be a risk to jump at and predict, but it's not totally out of line. The price is predicted to drop, the Basic bundle just got removed and is most likely getting replaced with a new model, bundles are coming, marketing is coming full blast, exclusives are dropping, Iwata dropping bombs, etc.

 

With no competition and a 180 after E3 from Nintendo, I would be jump starting game production. PES 2014 and no Fifa? Millions of Wii Us being sold? Holiday rush? Am I crazy to think that canning a game would do more bad than good?

 

Ubisoft seems to support the system (along with the Vita) with excellent ports while raking in lots of dough. If Ubisoft can do it, why can't others?

Edited June 5, 2013 by Autosaver

[Frogging101]

Earlier today, the Basic Wii U ($299) went out of stock on Amazon.ca

Now, the price is 379.99 (!): http://www.amazon.ca/Nintendo-Wii-Console-8GB-Basic/dp/B0050SVHZO/

I'm thinking this is because they ran out of stock, so they switched their primary seller to a third-party seller with insane prices (seriously, who would buy a Basic for $380 when they can get a Deluxe for $350 on the same site?!)

One can still purchase it from Amazon.ca if I go to the "other sellers" page, and since they say "Out of stock (more on the way), they would probably still have to fill the order one way or another at that price even if they later publicized the fact that they actually aren't getting any more (because of the recall). Just a thought.

Edited June 5, 2013 by Frogging101

[EuroMIX]

I would actually say that the last few months would have been a great time to release a game as a 3rd party. No really big Nintendo franchises and tons of time to build sales through the year and even up till the end of the consoles long life-span. This is where Rayman Legends missed out, so Ubisoft aren't immune either.

 

It almost seems like these days many publishers want to duke it out late into the year and end up seeing who get get the most attention for the Christmas rush.

[Carbo]

Why would it be an upressed PSP game when the game is clearly stated to be coming out on 360 and PS3?

Because we literally have no idea whether Fox Engine is running on the Wii U, and all signs point to it not being on there.

Are we going to have to go through this entire "engine vs. opportunity cost" discussion again? Because I really don't see the need to repeat a billion times why it's not a worthwhile investment in this point in time. Konami never released a game that was a hit on the Wii. What's their point in supporting a platform that for all intent's purpose is performing even worse than the console they didn't run to the bank with fists full of dollars?

 

The problem I have with the 'truth' is that this is the exact same situation that the 3DS faced.

No. No it's not.

And even if you tried to pull this comparison, third parties still don't support the 3DS in places that aren't Japan.

 

Ubisoft seems to support the system (along with the Vita) with excellent ports while raking in lots of dough. If Ubisoft can do it, why can't others?

Because Ubisoft are a cost-efficient publisher that thrive on modestly calculated successes. Unfortunately, most other publishers don't bank on thriving off of modest successes considering the entire structure that several publishers would have had to switch up and adapt to.

You can point Wii U's stagnation at a multitude of factors, but in the end the fact is Nintendo failed to keep their platform afloat for a crucial six months with a pathetic amount of games to show for it. It's not the third parties' job to keep a console afloat no matter what publisher you are, and at the very least they could easily have afforded to moneyhat a few key titles that recently came out and are still coming.

When the Wii U picks up, if it picks up, you'll see more games for it, assuming there's a reasonable opportunity cost involved. But right now I could seriously think of better ways to spend time than going on about the mean third parties making the Wii U crap when it's clear that unless you feel that making 10k copies off of a port is a worthwhile investment, it's no use in touching the thing with a ten foot pole.

[Autosaver]

Because we literally have no idea whether Fox Engine is running on the Wii U, and all signs point to it not being on there.

 

It's not, but the engine differences are nothing near that of the "Upres PSP graphics" you were implying. If anything, there will just be less features and while it's possible it may look worse, it won't be THAT bad.

 

Edit: Oh shit.. the previous game didn't even come out on Wii U either? Eh, but still.

 

Are we going to have to go through this entire "engine vs. opportunity cost" discussion again? Because I really don't see the need to repeat a billion times why it's not a worthwhile investment in this point in time. Konami never released a game that was a hit on the Wii. What's their point in supporting a platform that for all intent's purpose is performing even worse than the console they didn't run to the bank with fist full of dollars?

 

It's not about thinking about what is happening right now, it's about thinking about the future. Isn't that the entire point of investments? You're taking a risk for a possible huge gain. Konami released many PES games before on the Wii, and several have them have sold over a million copies.

 

It's funny because actually, the PES series doesn't do that well compared to Fifa. 2013 releases did pretty mediocre even on the PSP, which is still being made this year.

 

Wii U is in a unique position is that it's starved for 3rd party games. No competing soccer games gives a HUGE advantage to the PES series. Fifa takes a huge bunch of the PES series as they have the license and power. Wii U having only one (PES) title and a huge holiday price drop could ensure tons of sales.

 

No. No it's not.

And even if you tried to pull this comparison, third parties still don't support the 3DS in places that aren't Japan.

 

It's not..?

 

The 3DS suffered many similar problems that the Wii U faced. It was rushed out with many incomplete features. These features were added in the future through updates (Wii U has not gotten all of them yet). The 3DS also suffered with the delay of first party games with lack of third parties joining in. The launch of the 3DS had ports of older titles that were obviously rushed. There was no care or quality put into them. The 3DS also suffered from a high price point of $250 that was lowered down to $180 many months later. Oh.. the whole marketing issue with 3DS vs DS. Sounds similar to...

 

Wii U having a large price point of $349 (Speculated to be dropped very soon or at least new bundles)

Wii U missing features (OS Updates will come soon though)

Wii U having a rushed launch

Wii U having shitty third party ports

Wii U being similar to Wii

Wii U first party games being delayed and pushed to end of the year

 

Nah. Not similar at all.

 

Also you serious on the third party support bro (Do you mean not localizing OUT of Japan or American third parties not jumping in)? 3DS is getting lots of 3rd party support through eShop and retail alike.

 

Capcom, Level 5, Atlus, Square Enix, GS, SEGA, Namco, Xseed, Ubisoft, Konami (Eh..), Warner Brothers, Wayforward, and MORE.

 

 

When the Wii U picks up, if it picks up, you'll see more games for it, assuming there's a reasonable opportunity cost involved. But right now I could seriously think of better ways to spend time than going on about the mean third parties for making the Wii U crap.

 

No one is saying third parties are mean, or that they're making the Wii U crap. The fault is blamed primarily on Nintendo, but third parties seriously need to rethink their strategy if they want people buying their games. No one is going to buy Wii U releases if those versions miss features, don't have DLC, higher prices, old games, shitty ports, etc. It's honestly a cycle.

 

Low base ---> Less features

Less features ---> Low consumer base

 

Sigh. I really hope Nintendo drops the bombs this E3.

Edited June 5, 2013 by Autosaver

[Carbo]

It's not, but the engine differences are nothing near that of the "Upres PSP graphics" you were implying. If anything, there will just be less features and while it's possible it may look worse, it won't be THAT bad.

 

Edit: Oh shit.. the previous game didn't even come out on Wii U either? Eh, but still.

You missed the point. Unless Konami gets the Fox Engine running on Wii U, the best shot the Wii U has at getting any sort of cheap port of PES is if they take the PSP version and port it up to Wii U, and who in the world wants that?

 

It's not about thinking about what is happening right now, it's about thinking about the future. Isn't that the entire point of investments?

Yes. And despite what you may think about Mario, Zelda and whatever else Wii U has cooking for it, it's future is bleak. No one knows how Nintendo operates, no one knows when these games will be out, no one even knows whether the strength of the Nintendo brands were only due to the Wii fad catching on and frankly that's the key issue with them. Nintendo are too closed about their inner workings to developers. There is no "future outlook" when it comes to the Wii U. There's only silence, and a bunch of "we're going to have Mario guys, don't you worry". What happens after that? What happens, if potentially, Mario doesn't kick off?

Consumers and developers alike, are more often than the opposite, sold on something new.

 

It's not..?

It's not.

 

• Wii U is historically, when not counting Virtual Boy, the worst performing Nintendo console of all time in terms of launch aligned. It is doing even below Gamecube numbers, and that is without the games. If there is any sort of "brand strength" at play here, I'm not seeing it. That is fucking awful no matter what way you spin it. Gamecube exploded out of the gate even though it simmered down similarly, but it never went as far down as the Wii U is doing which is a historical atrocity.
• The portable market =/= the console market. There's a varying degree in brand strength and what works in each market.
• The Wii U is not occupying a space that it's monopolized on. Yes, the Wii arguably "won" the last generation if you're going by pure numbers but the truth is the console struggled to maintain any sort of relevancy into it's last two years which not only weakened it's entire impact but also lessened the influence of which Nintendo had in the home console market as a whole.
• The 3DS had a future outlook from the start and that's where the initial hype rose from. We had a massive list of games in the works for it. The Wii U did not. We didn't even hear about half of the games it has going for it until two months after it came out, and we still don't know when those games will be out and what will be beyond that.
• Wii U is not selling even though we've seen a big amount of desperate adverts that aim a family audience or even ones differentiating it and trivializing the Wii. It's not working. The 3DS didn't even need half of what the Wii U has right now. Awareness is not an issue, it's that people don't care.
• The Wii U is not an appealing product in what is considered one of Nintendo's best territories, i.e Japan. Despite having key titles, nothing has spurred sales of the thing. Dragon Quest X and Game & Wario only managed to boost the console for a week in Japan, and now it's back at doing 6k units a week.
• It did not take six months for the 3DS to rebound. It didn't even take more than two. At some point, there'll be a moment where everything fades into obscurity and turns the console into a footnote.
• The 3DS wasn't considered last-gen upon release.
• The 3DS quickly rectified it's brand confusion and was overall a desirable hardware upgrade. What does Wii U do to the recreational consumer in terms of gimmicks, hardware or brand name that lets it stand out? Nothing. Even the Wii name should have been abandoned as it means jack shit these days.

 

If you want to speak strictly in terms of a console rebounding because it has games for it that people want well then yes, no duh. But for many people a shit ton of what Nintendo has to offer is becoming subject of franchise fatigue and historically there's no proof beyond the 3DS that Nintendo's properties have "saved" a console. They never saved the N64, or the Gamecube. It's only saved a handheld, which is a vastly different market to cater to. You'll have to forgive people voicing skepticism of Nintendo's properties when it's been proven that the only situation they last in is being evergreen titles, but right now Nintendo can't just bank on Mario and Smash Bros. It needs something new to go along with it, because in the home console space, that's what's proven to be the most effective way of selling new hardware.

[SuperLink]

 

• The 3DS wasn't considered last-gen upon release.

You make good points but this one bugs me.

 

The only reason there's an inconsistency in this aspect is hypocrisy on the game industry's part. The 3DS is a bit more powerful than the PSP was, if the games industry was as ridiculously anal about handhelds as they are about home consoles the 3DS would be considered "last gen".

 

To be honest the only ones who even make a fuss about that are western developers who have never given a shit about the handheld market even though it's generally far bigger and more successful than the home console market. Western devs are so full of shit sometimes, they always just say things to make their e-peen seem bigger than other devs' e-peens even though they aren't making as much money as games on far lower tech. Our games don't sell as well as weaker games so let's make ourselves feel better by insulting them and calling them out for having smaller phalluses in comparison to our fantastically detailed phalluses that have eagles and nukes growing out of them.

Edited June 5, 2013 by SuperLink

[Autosaver]

 

Consumers and developers alike, are more often than the opposite, sold on something new.

 

We already have something 'new'

 

 

[Carbo]

You make good points but this one bugs me.

 

The only reason there's an inconsistency in this aspect is hypocrisy on the game industry's part. The 3DS is a bit more powerful than the PSP was, if the games industry was as ridiculously anal about handhelds as they are about home consoles the 3DS would be considered "last gen".

 

To be honest the only ones who even make a fuss about that are western developers who have never given a shit about the handheld market even though it's generally far bigger and more successful than the home console market. Western devs are so full of shit sometimes, they always just say things to make their e-peen seem bigger than other devs' e-peens even though they aren't making as much money as games on far lower tech. Our games don't sell as well as weaker games so let's make ourselves feel better by insulting them and calling them out for having smaller phalluses in comparison to our fantastically detailed phalluses that have eagles and nukes growing out of them.

 

For the record, I couldn't care less about the entire "what constitutes a generation" horse crap that is only being an issue because of Nintendo upsetting the status quo. As far as I'm concerned, every console generation is defined by it's time span. It's just that this issue prevalent with the console attributes massively to the bad word of mouth that goes around with the Wii U. If people are going to make room for new hardware in their home, odds are they'd rather want to do go with something that's either an improvement or different. Wii U as it stands isn't showing a big visible improvement, and the thing it's different at has proven to not be a highly desirable gimmick. At the very least, we haven't seen anything prove that by now.

 

And like I said about the 3DS, console base =/= handheld base. The generation issue is largely pointless in that, and when it comes to handheld there's a different niche to occupy.

[SuperLink]

For the record, I couldn't care less about the entire "what constitutes a generation" horse crap that is only being an issue because of Nintendo upsetting the status quo.

This is the entire issue.

 

If Sony or MS, god forbid, made a weaker console in attempt to grab Nintendo's demographic, then of course they would still get support or wouldn't be called "last gen". It's literally just an issue because Nintendo is Nintendo and has an uncurable stigma in the eyes of westerners for not being pumped with enough testosterone.

 

If Nintendo made a system more powerful than the competitors, it wouldn't get ports because "it's hard to develop for" or because "it doesn't do the DRM features we western developers love so much".

 

And I know handhelds and home consoles have totally different audiences but the complete ignorance of the handheld market from most western developers is bizarre.

[Carbo]

This is the entire issue.

 

If Sony or MS, god forbid, made a weaker console in attempt to grab Nintendo's demographic, then of course they would still get support or wouldn't be called "last gen". It's literally just an issue because Nintendo is Nintendo and has an uncurable stigma in the eyes of westerners for not being pumped with enough testosterone.

 

If Nintendo made a system more powerful than the competitors, it wouldn't get ports because "it's hard to develop for" or because "it doesn't do the DRM features we western developers love so much".

 

And I know handhelds and home consoles have totally different audiences but the complete ignorance of the handheld market from most western developers is bizarre.

I'm not so sure I can agree with that considering the amount of heat Microsoft has gotten for making the Xbone be relatively under the weather in terms of specs. But that said, the issue is third party developers have to bank on Microsoft and Sony to deliver the goods all the same. It's in their best interest for the platforms to do well and since that's where most of their profit derives from, they'll have to support it until it proves unsustainable. Since none of the big publishers had hits as big on the Wii or any other Nintendo platform as much as other consoles, they'll continue pursuing where the money actually lies.

As for the western publisher disinterest in handheld, it's mostly due to developer mindset and that they have to tailor a game exclusively for what is lesser hardware in comparison to what they often work with. It's why you're seeing a lot of Vita ports over 3DS games, because the architecture in the former doesn't merit much additional work on the developer's part.

The big problem really is that outside of Japan it's extremely rare for a game to sell more than 300k copies of anything unless you're Nintendo published or sponsored. Another issue is that despite the 3DS actually doing well generally right now, it's YoY this last period has actually been pretty bad. It's underperforming in the west right now, hence why there's a massive push of all these new titles you're seeing.

[Detective Shadzter]

Nintendo comments on basic Wii U bundle - says changes are a stock rebalance, both bundles staying
http://www.gonintendo.com/?mode=viewstory&id=204249&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=facebook

[Conando]

So it's possible they're still repurposing some of them, but the basic is here to stay then, huh? Well, I can't say I think it's the best idea. Maybe some people will continue to buy them, though. Just make sure there are far more Deluxe bundles than Basics.

[Solkia]

Nintendo comments on basic Wii U bundle - says changes are a stock rebalance, both bundles staying

http://www.gonintendo.com/?mode=viewstory&id=204249&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=facebook

 

???

 

why

[Conando]

It's likely there are too many basics. So they're taking them back rather than letting them sit on store shelves. So, what it PROBABLY means is that the Deluxe Bundle will be a lot more readily available.

[Tornado]

This is the entire issue.

 

If Sony or MS, god forbid, made a weaker console in attempt to grab Nintendo's demographic, then of course they would still get support or wouldn't be called "last gen". It's literally just an issue because Nintendo is Nintendo and has an uncurable stigma in the eyes of westerners for not being pumped with enough testosterone.

 

No. Nintendo has an incurable stigma of doing whatever the fuck they want and to hell with everyone else, and it shouldn't be surprising that publishers have grown sick of it.

Sony and Microsoft shower big publishers with so much fucking support (and money) that game developers can't walk out the door to their houses without being accosted by a prepaid hookers sent by one (or both) of them. And Sony was doing that minutes after Sega dropped the ball in 1995 at E3 with the Saturn launch and fucked themselves over into complete irrelevance, since they already had a basis and connections since they had been a game publisher for a few years by that point; and Microsoft parachuted in in 2000 by buying up as much as they could to establish a base and working very closely with Sega as Sega was parachuting out.

 

Nintendo, meanwhile, has never done anything but treat outside publishers with just barely above contempt. In the 1980s they had such an draconian and outright illegal grip on the industry that the lawsuits they lost over it have established precedents over the American legal system in general; not just in the industry. Companies formed entire new companies and opened themselves up to legal action just to get away from Nintendo's control. With the SNES they threw everything they had at Sega just in time to watch Sega start to collapse on themselves; then did a bunch of stupid shit after it was clear that Sega had gone in insane that ultimately ending up pissing off Sony so much that Sony entered the market purely to tell Nintendo to fuck off. The N64 came around and they intentionally defied market trends entirely for their own self interests, and what little developers didn't tell Nintendo to blow right then and there had to put up with 4 more years of Nintendo basically acting like it was 1985 again (with their intentionally undocumented development kits for third parties and fees for game publishing since Nintendo handled all of the production themselves) while Sony ends up selling a hundred million of the things. The Gamecube came around, and lo and behold they were doing what they wanted again at the expense of any semblance to what everyone else is doing; so that time around most publishers didn't even bother from the start and just jumped in with Microsoft or Sony. The Gamecube has a strong start, but after 3 years Nintendo can't even give it away at 100 bucks with a pack in game and the system is losing huge exclusive titles by the bucketload. The Wii comes around and lo and behold it's happening again, but the PS2 is still alive so publishers start supporting it when it starts taking off in sales; but they are still left on their own by Nintendo so the only games that are worth making are PS2/PSP ports because time after time the attempts to make bigger name games on the Wii bomb because the userbase simply isn't there.

 

 

Flash forward to 2013: The Wii U is out. Not only is the userbase still not there, but most of the fringe gamers are also gone and not coming back; but Nintendo still isn't changing their ways. Why should publishers treat Nintendo, and by extension the Wii U, the same as they treat the 360 and PS3; and when half of them are in some sort of financial peril due to problems in the industry and the economy, why shouldn't they choose now to say that enough is enough?

[WarioBone]

???

 

why

 

Because just because one thing is inferior to another doesn't mean it doesn't have the right to hang around!

 

I mean, just look at women black people something else offensive please tell me you people know I'm joking New Super Mario Bros.!

[Conando]

The thing is, I don't think Nintendo will ever be able to prove themselves to Western 3rd parties now; there's just too much bad blood brought on by the nearly 2 decades of Draconian Policy. It's just not going to happen, no matter what they try. It's sad, yes, but it's something we're just going to have to learn to deal with at this point. I don't honestly think any of us that buy a Wii U were doing it for anything but Nintendo games, though. 

Edited June 5, 2013 by Super Mario

[Autosaver]

Nintendo comments on basic Wii U bundle - says changes are a stock rebalance, both bundles staying

http://www.gonintendo.com/?mode=viewstory&id=204249&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=facebook

But that still leaves a whole bunch of Basic Wii Us to Nintendo.

 

1) They'll change the excess Basic Wii U stock to Premiums.

2) They will lower production of Basics and ship off.. the extra stock?

 

or both.

[SuperLink]

Nintendo have a history of treating publishers like crap, but they don't nearly as much anymore and nowadays most western publishers (Nintendo included) are 500% corrupt corporate whores who want to milk their consumers dry, treat them like shit and completely police their games.

 

I don't care if publishers aren't treated the best by Nintendo (or Sony if they started doing that), because at the moment they don't deserve to be treated well with how fucking awfully they treat their consumers. The "best part" is that consumers are too fucking stupid to "protest with their wallets" because they'll buy buy buy all the sugar sprinkled shit publishers mindlessly throw at them from their unsettled bowels and gaming will get worse and worse until publishers won't care about game dignity themselves at all, only as an interactive medium designed to screw over their consumers for money at every opportunity while only a tiny few amount of developers actually make games for games' sake and treat their consumers decently with common sense as the basis for what that "decency" is, not just "what consumers speak with their wallets" for.

 

If publishers want to stop being so in the red financially maybe they should learn some fucking karma, treat their consumers, their paying customers, decently, or god forbid make a game that doesn't cost a billion dollars like some kind of hollywood studio that only knows how to budget like a rabid half decomposed monkey.

Edited June 5, 2013 by SuperLink

[EuroMIX]

I always assumed that this was the reason why Nintendo was trying to charm the indie developers; because there's little to no history with them and they'll probably be one of the few that will handle a possible videogame crash because they tend not to stick all their eggs in one basket and instead fall back on small games and budgets as well as crowdfunding which has a more tangible signal of success.

 

Nintendo are not a perfect company by any means, but it really does feel that some 3rd parties are being salty for the sake of being salty at this point.

 

Nintendo definitely looks more pro-consumer compared to MS right now, even with the lack of an account system (which Nintendo should definitely work on).

[Mando-Whirl-Wind]

I personaly see them focusing on the indies because, like said before, there is no bad blood, but not only that because if the indies become sucessful they could become the next third party publishers in their own right, the next generation per say. And I honestly bought the Wii-U cause I like nintendo games, I can catch up on some Wii games, and I do enjoy first party titles, and sonic of course.

On another note, doesnt anybody notice how its kinda interesting that Sega, after their long rival is truly becoming buds with Nintendo? perhaps its because they are both japanese, and they dont mind doing whatever, not just whats trendy