The Pokémanz Thread

[Velotix von Skruviktorrius]

As promised, a tedious-yet-useful stat primer.

Before we start, a side-note: IVs and EVs have been in the games since R/B/Y. Gen 3 rewrote the system used in those games, and this is the system still used through Gen 5. This is why Gen 2 and Gen 3 are incompatible with each other.

Alrighty then, let's review. Here's the first key detail to be aware of that most people aren't:

Your Pokémon's statistics aren't saved as fixed numbers (i.e. 200HP, 150 Atk, 20 Def, etc.). They're recalculated from the Pokémon's raw statistic data every time you level up or put the Pokémon in the PC. (The latter method is how you EV train Lv 100 Pokémon up to Gen 4, as the stat boosts are applied as soon as you store it in the PC.) I'd have to confirm it but I believe this also means that weirdly your stats update whenever you save the game and turn off - when you restart later it loads the new stat data to calculate the stats.

In other words, whenever you level up in-game, the game calculates the new values and compares them to the previously used values using the EV data as it was when you last levelled up. This is how EV training makes it look like you suddenly gain +10 in a stat when you level, as the EVs have been quietly piling up without being applied up until that point.

This is unfortunately the least technical part of this topic.

Why IV/EV/Natures Matter

In order:

IV - Individual Values - a fancy term for Pokémon genes, this value adds bonus points to its relevant stat. A value between 0 and 31, at Lv 100 the difference between the same species with an IV0 in one stat compared to another with IV31 in the same stat is 31 points, and this is not affected by the Pokémon's Base Stats either. In a game where a final stat of 300 is considered a big deal, this makes a significant difference to your Pokémon's potential. In the wild, you will most often encounter Pokémon with IVs ranging between 10 and 18 with two polar opposite outliers, based on personal experience (i.e. 10, 2, 27, 13, 15, 14). A Pokémon with IVs in the single digits will feel unusually limp and weedy if this IV is in one of its key stats. (I think I've had two shit Snivys in a row, go me.)

EV - Effort Values - this is the way you apply stat boosts manually to a Pokémon - individual EV stats range from 0 to 255, and your combined 6 EV stats cannot exceed 510 on any one Pokémon. The difference between EV0 and EV255 in a stat is 63 points; you gain 1 point every 4 EVs and so stop seeing any stat gains past 252 EVs in one stat. Thus, you can potentially get an extra 94 points in a stat at Lv100 by fully EV training that stat and getting a Pokémon with a perfect IV value. Aside from battling Pokémon and winning to increase your EV scores (which is why your Pokémon trained from Lv2 kick the crap out of NPCs with much higher level Pokémon), you can also add a maximum of 100 EV points to a stat of your choice by using the vitamin suite (HP Up, Protein, etc.). Each vitamin adds 10 EVs to its related stat, which will save you time if not cash. The vitamins also stop working when a stat already has 100 EVs or more so for the sake of efficiency if you are using vitamins, apply them first before EV training.

*Apparently, according to Bulbapedia as of Gen 5: "Pokémon can now gain effort values from battling even at level 100, as stats are recalculated at the end of every battle, instead of just on level up, much like Deoxys in the Generation III games." Or in other words, you'll never see giant e-peen stat gains again in B/W, but your Pokémon will see the benefits of EV training immediately.

Nature - On top of the gains mentioned above, Pokémon natures (personalities) modify their stats further - the Pokémon trades a 10% gain in one stat for a 10% loss in another stat. This is calculated last, so if you happen to train an IV31 EV255 attacker with an Attack-draining nature, it'll have its Attack stat cut to 90% of the original value after all that work. The idea is to aim for a nature that weakens a stat that the Pokémon will never use for a gain in the stat it uses most often, or a gain in a stat to cover a major weakness in battle (such as a specially defensive Pokémon like Blissey being very vulnerable to physical damage). It should be noted that some natures trade a 10% gain in one stat for a 10% loss in the exact same stat, making the Nature cancel itself out and have no effect. This is usually not ideal, but it's better than a hindering nature. Since Gen 4 you can see at a glance on the Pokémon's character sheet what their Nature does: the boosted stat is highlighted red whilst the weakened stat is highlighted blue.

Natures never affect HP.

There's one last detail...

Base Stat - The Pokémon's base statistics are the most important factor as they're used along with the Pokémon's level to scale their stats directly. If you want an example of how levels and base stats combine and affect your Pokémon, give a freshly levelled-up Pokémon a Rare Candy and note the stat changes. Also note that Pokémon always rounds fractions down, so stats appear to scale unevenly between levels.

At Lv100, the Pokémon gets 2 points in a stat for each base stat point, so a base stat of 100 grants 200 points in the stat and the maximum of 255 grants 510.

Currently, existing Pokémon have Base Stats ranging between 1 and 255, with 85 being the rough average for all fully evolved Pokémon. Adding together a Pokémon's six base stats gives you a number that roughly indicates the raw potential of the species. As 85 is the rough average for a stat, the rough average Base Stat Total (BST) for fully evolved Pokémon is 510. Legendary Pokémon have a combined BST of at least 580. A surprising number of other fully-evolved Pokémon also hit this number, which is the main reason why online tournaments will allow some Legendaries to be used but not others that start pushing 700. Base Stats increase as a Pokémon evolves under almost all circumstances, but there are some notable exceptions: Scyther evolving into Scizor makes its Speed stat drop like a rock. Base Stat Totals also almost always increase when a Pokémon evolves, again with a few very odd exceptions. (Scyther and Scizor have the same BST but the individual stats are doled out totally differently.)

Competitively competent Pokémon will usually have a BST between 500 and 600. Pokémon that exceed 600 or have horribly overpowered abilities are those classed as "Ubers" by fans and banned from normal tourney play. Currently, Pokémon BSTs go up to 600 smoothly then suddenly jump from 600 to 660 and beyond. Arceus has the highest BST at 720, the second highest being the boxart/megastar Legis such as Mewtwo, Lugia and Reshiram with 680 each.

As for how these statistics are actually calculated, they're semi-complex math equations. They're included here for reference, but the key details are: IVs and EVs add bonus points to the doubled Base Stat assuming it was Lv100 and then the actual Level is applied to scale it down to an appropriate number, then finally offset values are added to stop Pokémon having less than 5 in a stat or 10HP at Lv1. (Natures can knock a stat below 5 though.)

HP:

Everything Else:

Also for reference:

The Comprehensive Base Stat Total Sheet on Bulbapedia

EDIT: derp, factual error slipped through, fixed

EDIT 2: derp moar i cant spel

Edited March 15, 2011 by Velotix Lexovetikan

[Sean]

Thanks, it's quite helpful. I had a basic grasp on most of those things covered, but I sincerely never heard of that part about stat recalculation through the PC and other miscellaneous means that don't involve leveling.

The thing I'm wondering about most right now consists of the IVs. How the hell do people go about trying to get 31 IVs on at least one or two stats (seeing as how I'm going for Garchomp, I'm guessing max IVs in both attack and speed are ideal)? At first I was thinking that breeding influences what you get, but it turns out that the offspring only inherits certain (random or otherwise) stats from the parents. If there's nothing I can do about it other than depend on sheer luck, I'm not sure how much patience I can have to wait it out.

[Velotix von Skruviktorrius]

I never successfully bred a perfect IV Pokémon.

Ultimately the process is luck dependent, there are just ways you can stack the deck in your favour.

[Octarine]

I'm happy to EV train and breed for natures, but trying to get decent IVs is just that one tedious step too far for me. There's only so much biking back and forth on the same route I can take.

[Sean]

Yeahhhhh. After like six hours of crazy egg hatching (thanks for interfering with my studying for school, Pokémon), I think I'm just going to settle with the following that I got pretty early on (checked through MetalKid and Serebii's calculators, got the same results):

Gible - #443 (Jolly)

HP: 29

Att: 27

Def: 15

SpA: 0

SpD: 24

Speed: 16

Everything is no less than average save for Special Attack, which I'm not going to use anyway. I bred about a dozen other Gibles that had better stats in one of the ones I wanted (Attack or Speed), but had piss-poor defenses in the single-digits. I'm not going to be using this thing for competitive battling so this should be enough to suit my needs. Now if only I had a Gible in SoulSilver (or any worthwhile uber that could take on the Battle Frontier) which would make IV breeding even easier - ironically one of the few things HG/SS does better than Platinum.

[Jetronic]

Now if only I had a Gible in SoulSilver (or any worthwhile uber that could take on the Battle Frontier) which would make IV breeding even easier - ironically one of the few things HG/SS does better than Platinum.

I got a spare if you just want one in general that you want to raise (actually it's a gabite with a brave nature and I have a bagon as well if you want that, or you can just take them both).

[Sean]

I don't have any Wi-Fi so I can't trade online, but I appreciate the offer.

What I also really need is another DS because I need to transfer my Lucky Eggs to Platinum somehow. I guess it's time to mooch off my cousin again!

[Velotix von Skruviktorrius]

You'll also need it for your eventual Gen 5 game as the transfer system from Gen 4 to 5 requires two DSes.

[Sean]

Would a 3DS work? (Either trading between the two systems or taking advantage of the 3DS's DS slot to avoid the hassle.) Not that I'm getting one anytime soon, though.

[Kuzu]

snip

......My God, remember when the series was just about battling monsters? Those days are long gone.

Edited March 15, 2011 by Sean
loooooongcat

[Sean]

No, they're still here. Things like EV training and IVs are entirely ignorable if you just want to get through the game or have casual battling. I didn't read into any of this until recently (although I knew what they were), and I've been playing Pokémon casually since Yellow.

[Blue Blood]

......My God, remember when the series was just about battling monsters? Those days are long gone.

Yeah, no. It's marketed as just battling/catching monsters because that's more appealing to the masses. Fact is, it's about both or whichever one you choose.

[Velotix von Skruviktorrius]

Hell, if you don't like battling at all, just do the Contests/Pokéathlon/Musical Theatre.

But IF you want to battle, you're dealing with one of the most complex battle systems ever devised - not bad for something that boils down to Rock Paper Scissors.

What most people have trouble getting their heads around is that whilst the system has been gradually getting more complex over time, the bulk of it was already implemented in Gen 1. Most of this stuff isn't new at all.

EDIT: WHY AM I TYPOING SO HARD IN THIS THREAD?

"never devised" wtf is this shit

Edited March 15, 2011 by Velotix Lexovetikan

[Kuzu]

Yeah, no. It's marketed as just battling/catching monsters because that's more appealing to the masses. Fact is, it's about both or whichever one you choose.

I know that, I was just saying its gotten pretty fucking complicated in recent years, I was just comparing back in 1998 when all you had to worry about Mewtwo.

I still love battling competitively don't get me wrong, it just took me a while to get the whole concept and all.

Ya know its sad, I've probably studied more about EV/IV than most of my school work.

[Blue Blood]

Hell, if you don't like battling at all, just do the Contests/Pokéathlon/Musical Theatre.

Hahahaha! "Just do the musicals" Ha!

I know that, I was just saying its gotten pretty fucking complicated in recent years, I was just comparing back in 1998 when all you had to worry about Mewtwo.

Only because back then you were still like 7 years old or something. Heck, I'm 18 now I still don't care for the competitive side of Pokémon. =P

[Kuzu]

Only because back then you were still like 7 years old or something. Heck, I'm 18 now I still don't care for the competitive side of Pokémon. =P

I got into it because I got tired of losing all the time with my unEv trained Pokemon, I was ok with it at first, but it got annoying. ITs not as tedious as you think(The training I mean).

[Jetronic]

This is how I 3D pokemon?

i fail so hard

Edited March 16, 2011 by Jetronic

[Sean]

Well I just finished training my Garchomp last night. Unfortunately I still can't take on Palmer because I really don't have much in the way to defend against Ice attacks, but it was pretty dumb of me to think I could destroy him with just one Pokémon anyway. Sooooooo I decided to make a team of three EV-trained Pokémon, again for the sole purpose of the Battle Frontier. I haven't decided who my third member will be, but one of the first ones that crossed my mind was Lucario, who I think is rad but never actually used in a team before. So I set out on trying to make one that focused on special attacks. Here's what I managed to get fairly early on (in fact, this is the first Timid Riolu I hatched, saving me a lot more time):

Riolu - #447 (Timid)

HP: 29

Att: 11

Def: 25

SpA: 25

SpD: 24

Speed: 31

I fucking lucked out on this. The IVs are way better for him than Garchomp's, who had pretty average stats all around, and once again the only weak stat is the one I'm not focusing on anyway. I'm pretty sure I'm not going to find a better Riolu than this within my span of patience.

[Velotix von Skruviktorrius]

Sexy.

But isn't Lucario a Physical attacker, or am I being a tit?

[Rusty Spy]

His stats and movepool can make him a mixed attacker.

[Sean]

Apparently it's good in both physical and special attacks. Its base Sp.Atk is only five points higher, though.

EDIT: Derp, beaten.

[Senator NinjaShark]

Well I just finished training my Garchomp last night. Unfortunately I still can't take on Palmer because I really don't have much in the way to defend against Ice attacks

Tried the Yache Berry? It Halves the Damage of Ice Attacks so it may be Helpful

Sexy.

But isn't Lucario a Physical attacker, or am I being a tit?

It can be Both actually. Altough from what I've seen in Gen 4 People seem to Prefer a Physical Attacking Lucario, due to it only having acces to Sword Dance in that Gen.

....damn you Virgo and you appearing out of nowhere

[Sean]

Tried the Yache Berry? It Halves the Damage of Ice Attacks so it may be Helpful

I'm mainly concerned about a berry being accidentally used up before I reach Palmer. I should still try this out though, but I need to start farming for them.

[ChikaBoing]

R/S/E was the last time most of the pokemon looked decent. They should of stopped there. Those new pokemon look so fugely, they are not even trying anymore.

[Marcello]

You're crazy, man. The new Pokemon are great.

Hoenn's new Pokemon were the worst. There were a few really awesome ones like Exploud, though.

Edited March 17, 2011 by Marcellove