Sonic the Hedgehog 4

[Aquaslash]

2. The biggest problem with Silver in this game would be his story- you know, being from xhundred years in the future. That, and it's the first (hopefully not only) game of its type. Bring out a sequel, dust off the Time Stones and enter Silver for all I care. But for the first, keep it like it was before.

Well as far as this particular point, I'm notorious for not giving a rat's patoot about the story. In fact, I'm known for taking the two most canonically unrelated characters, putting them in a game together as the main characters, and making it work.

That said, I don't particularly mind too much that it's Sonic only. I don't think other characters would have killed the game, because it's all in the execution. However, I do think that continuous neglect of the other characters in main titles is gonna hurt over time, and should this game have a sequel, a second main is MANDATORY.

That said, I would like to see other characters as DLC, and for me, Shadow tops that list. I'd LOVE to see an official take on Shadow in a classic setting.

[Mike]

It would probably be a good idea to concentrate more on Sonic's actual gameplay first instead of throwing in characters left and right. You get the basics down. Then you can explore other possibilities.

If you're still having trouble understanding me I can sing it for you.

You put one foot in front of the other, and soon you'll be walking out the doooooooor!

[Blue Blood]

Well as far as this particular point, I'm notorious for not giving a rat's patoot about the story. In fact, I'm known for taking the two most canonically unrelated characters, putting them in a game together as the main characters, and making it work.

That said, I don't particularly mind too much that it's Sonic only. I don't think other characters would have killed the game, because it's all in the execution. However, I do think that continuous neglect of the other characters in main titles is gonna hurt over time, and should this game have a sequel, a second main is MANDATORY.

That said, I would like to see other characters as DLC, and for me, Shadow tops that list. I'd LOVE to see an official take on Shadow in a classic setting.

Bloody hell. I like you.

Variety is a good thing. Story can matter sometimes, but sometimes games exist just for the sheer fun of it. All that and more. Someone knows what he wants, after rationally looking at it from a range of angles. Kudos.

[speedfreak]

I don't want "Sonic Ultra Extreme XXX". I've never wanted a game like that.

Maybe you're getting your "one game", but I still haven't gotten my "one game". And I see no reason why your "one game" should automatically take precedence over mine.

It's because the myriad of complaints about Sonic's "shitty friends" for years now. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, give the people what they want, etc, etc.

[Tornado]

it was confirmed, and even before that heavily foreshadowed in sega interviews

When?

[Rusty Spy]

It would probably be a good idea to concentrate more on Sonic's actual gameplay first instead of throwing in characters left and right. You get the basics down. Then you can explore other possibilities.

If you're still having trouble understanding me I can sing it for you.

You put one foot in front of the other, and soon you'll be walking out the doooooooor!

And people complain the Sonic franchise has too many characters. I think Sega needs to get the public's favor back for the Sonic series first before they consider any kind of spin-off with a character that isn't Sonic.

Not against any individual here or anything, but can we please get through a discussion about other characters in games without people throwing this statement around, and just treat it as a hypothetical discussion? I think we get the point already.

kthxbai!

Now then:

Here's a reason why Tails and Knuckles are better, they are a bit more creative and interesting.

lol no. Knuckles sure, but Tails? psh!

Tails design is more creative

No it isn't.

Shadow and Silver are both hedgehogs as well and design wise do not really differentiate themselves,

Shadow's black and red, Silvers, well, silver. What again is not different about them?

Shadow is too much like Sonic, he even has the super speed, then he has the problem with his angst.

Well yeah, that's the point.

Silver has the psychic powers which seemed at the time to be like the developers just played second sight or psiops (both of which came out in 2005) and said "hey we need a psychic character, and also lets say he is from the future" honestly it seemed kinda dumb.

Okay, I'll give you that.

Edited January 16, 2010 by Black Spy

[Djawed]

I don't want "Sonic Ultra Extreme XXX". I've never wanted a game like that.

Maybe you're getting your "one game", but I still haven't gotten my "one game". And I see no reason why your "one game" should automatically take precedence over mine.

So what is the one game you want?

[Dreadknux]

See, that's the hypocritical BS that I'm talking about. Tails and Knuckles get a pass ONLY because of seniority. You'll never sell Tails as a better character than Silver because if Silver existed back then, he'd be JUST as popular. The fact still remains that those two don't deserve a place in this title, or any other title above any other character than Sonic himself. Even Eggman can take a hike because a villain is a villain is a villain.

The main reason why Tails and Knuckles gets a pass, the way I see it, is simple. And it's nothing really silly like story or whatever (although in Shadow's case, that really didn't help).

It's in gameplay. As I said before. It's always gameplay. Tails and Knuckles, in Sonic 2, 3&K, whatever, were always fun to play as (maybe not so much Knuckles in SA2, and Tails in SA2 doesn't really count, but you get my point). They were basically Sonic characters, with the odd added ability to discover different paths through the same stages. It was familiar enough to the player, yet it offered a new angle on the same game (except Sonic 2, where you couldn't fly as Tails, but whatever).

Silver, on the other hand, plays like arse in Sonic 06. This can't really be disputed. And it's a world apart from Sonic's core gameplay - the character is slow, action in his stages is tedious and not very inspiring at all. Hell, even in Sonic Rivals the character was completely gimped. It's just not satisfying to play as Silver. That's the core difference.

But as I said, story helps. Case in point; Shadow. People liked Shadow in SA2, he was borne out of Sonic's core gameplay and yet his experience was just different enough to be an interesting new angle. And SA2 had a pretty good game engine anyway, so Sonic and Shadow's gameplay both meant much fun times. Get to Sonic Heroes' release however, and people are less enthused about the character, because the dumb story completely retconned his death, and left a massive plothole that fans wanted an answer to (i.e. why the hell did he not burn to a crisp?). But still, he had the same gameplay as Sonic in Heroes - just a shame the gameplay in general wasn't up to snuff. Fast forward to Shadow the Hedgehog; a terrible game with terrible controls and unsatisfying plothole filler, and you now have fans that really wish he dies (again).

It's not just a matter of 'seniority' either. People like Blaze the Cat. And the reason is because she was very fun to play as in Sonic Rush/Sonic Rush Adventure, and her core mechanic was (again) the same as Sonic's but different. Different moves, slightly different stage music, different experience. In fact, I'd go so far as to say she was the most playable character in Sonic 06 as well. So double win for Blaze, there. Story-wise, the character is very understated as well, so on both counts (the important gameplay and secondary story) she's a very good candidate.

Not that I'm saying I'd really want to see Tails/Knuckles/Blaze/John from up the road in Needlemouse, I'm simply pointing out the reasons why people are more attached to these kinds of characters (maybe not John) than a lot of the more annoying characters like Shadow or Silver. Gameplay.

[Ring2010]

it was confirmed, and even before that heavily foreshadowed in sega interviews

I've concluded to some extent that PN is no way probably not DLC at all. But that the only reason why SEGA is releasing the trailer on XBL and PSN is most likely for the sole purpose of "teasing" and creating speculation and hype(I can't believe that word has almost been forgotten.)

If it were a DLC,SEGA would have confirmed it themselves already or someone would have been able to leak out info on it. Nobody, I repeat nobody has been able to confirm what console PN is for and there's nothing to suggest it will be for Wii since the game will run on 1080p HD.

Nobody knows, anything about the game or what system it's for. It it were for any current system, the info would has easily been leaked out. Oh and in the most recent SEGA interview, Tsurumi said nothing about PN noir did he talk about anything beyond Q1 2010. He didn't hint about PN, why? Because he was not asked about it.

Edited January 17, 2010 by Ring2010

[Diogenes]

So what is the one game you want?

Well I haven't worked out the details, but I'd love to see a 3D Sonic game that takes influence from the Genesis games, but expands on the mechanics to create something greater, which makes use of (playable or otherwise) a large portion of the series' cast in a reasonable manner, with the playables being joined by similar base mechanics with their own quirks added on (similar to S3&K's treatment of the characters), with a plot that focuses more on character interaction than a world-ending gimmick (and specifically a plot that doesn't involve Eggman being upstaged by a monster in the end).

That's the ideal, of course.

[Djawed]

Well I haven't worked out the details, but I'd love to see a 3D Sonic game that takes influence from the Genesis games, but expands on the mechanics to create something greater, which makes use of (playable or otherwise) a large portion of the series' cast in a reasonable manner, with the playables being joined by similar base mechanics with their own quirks added on (similar to S3&K's treatment of the characters), with a plot that focuses more on character interaction than a world-ending gimmick (and specifically a plot that doesn't involve Eggman being upstaged by a monster in the end).

That's the ideal, of course.

Yea. I think most classic fans want the same. Me being one of them, i think project needlemouse needs to be done just so Sonicteam realises what was so good back then. But i don't think anyone here who's happy and all hyped about project needlemouse doesnt want a 3d game after it. If this game ends up being great your ideal might come true ya know

Edit: I think in order to make a game like that they need to back track a little bit.

Edited January 17, 2010 by Jaouad

[speedfreak]

Not that I'm saying I'd really want to see Tails/Knuckles/Blaze/John from up the road in Needlemouse, I'm simply pointing out the reasons why people are more attached to these kinds of characters (maybe not John) than a lot of the more annoying characters like Shadow or Silver. Gameplay.

I understand what you're saying, but why is it that going from good gameplay in SA2 to bad gameplay in Shadow the Hedgehog is enough reason to write Shadow off as a playable character ever again when it's cool for Tails and Knuckles (who both had good gameplay in the classics) to return to the playable role when they both have had gamplay just as crappy as Shadow's in the more recent games?

[Dreadknux]

Well I haven't worked out the details, but I'd love to see a 3D Sonic game that takes influence from the Genesis games, but expands on the mechanics to create something greater, which makes use of (playable or otherwise) a large portion of the series' cast in a reasonable manner, with the playables being joined by similar base mechanics with their own quirks added on (similar to S3&K's treatment of the characters), with a plot that focuses more on character interaction than a world-ending gimmick (and specifically a plot that doesn't involve Eggman being upstaged by a monster in the end).

That's the ideal, of course.

I think you and I would get along.

I don't think the prospects of a 3D game diminishes with Needlemouse though. In fact, I think this might lead the way to an effective 3D Sonic, if feedback from fans agree that they like the 'classic' art style and direction the game takes. It would be a very enticing prospect to create a 3D game with stages that have multiple paths that weave into each other, and secret areas and paths only accessible by a character's particular move.

I understand what you're saying, but why is it that going from good gameplay in SA2 to bad gameplay in Shadow the Hedgehog is enough reason to write Shadow off as a playable character ever again when it's cool for Tails and Knuckles (who both had good gameplay in the classics) to return to the playable role when they both have had gamplay just as crappy as Shadow's in the more recent games?

That's why I brought up the story card. People are simply sick to death with Shadow now, the whole 'searching for my past' was an exhausting journey for fans that yielded no satisfactory reward. These days he's a more bearable character sure, but I just think he's outstayed his welcome generally.

[Remy]

I'm not sure how anyone can openly dislike the old games

but why is it that going from good gameplay in SA2 to bad gameplay in Shadow the Hedgehog is enough reason to write Shadow off as a playable character ever again when it's cool for Tails and Knuckles (who both had good gameplay in the classics) to return to the playable role when they both have had gamplay just as crappy as Shadow's in the more recent games?

because none of them fucking died and are identical to sonic in the first place.

[Diogenes]

Edit: I think in order to make a game like that they need to back track a little bit.

The problem is deciding where to draw the line between backtracking and regressing. What some people see as a proper amount of backtracking, I see as an unacceptable regression.

[Djawed]

The problem is deciding where to draw the line between backtracking and regressing. What some people see as a proper amount of backtracking, I see as an unacceptable regression.

Lets just wait untill the game comes out. You might love it, i might hate it. Were still w8ting for the first gameplay footages

And @ dreadknux

Exactly what i meant

Edited January 17, 2010 by Jaouad

[speedfreak]

That's why I brought up the story card. People are simply sick to death with Shadow now, the whole 'searching for my past' was an exhausting journey for fans that yielded no satisfactory reward. These days he's a more bearable character sure, but I just think he's outstayed his welcome generally.

Yeah, his back story was pretty awful.

because none of them fucking died and are identical to sonic in the first place.

No reason to be snippy. Also not that I care about Shadow ever returning as a playable character, but why is it that Shadow falling from space means he just had to die when Sonic has done it several times like it's no biggie?

[Remy]

Because the game with all it's soppy ending BS and Sayonara Shadow The Hedgehog made us believe he was dead. Every time sonic falls from space we follow him down and he's usually fine, probs landing on a plane or summat.

if anything, I suppose they could bring him back as an optional Sonic skin.

[Rusty Spy]

Because the game with all it's soppy ending BS and Sayonara Shadow The Hedgehog made us believe he was dead.

That's why good writing would have hinted at him surviving, leaving the door open for him to return or not. SA2 had SOME foreshadowing, but it was so little and incredibly ignored throughout the game that many people wouldn't have noticed it, and that being the fact that Shadow's creation was intended for uncovering the secret behind immortal life, and him being the final product of that research means that he is as such an immortal life form.

Had they actually acknowledged these facts in the game itself, and laid the clues out there, his revival would've made more sense to people, and they wouldn't be under the mindset that it wasn't entirely possible for him to survive.

[Meow]

Speak for yourself. A lot of people who come here aren't lemmings who will buy a terrible game that has sonic slapped on the front. This is the first time I am giving Sega a chance to get money out of my wallet since heroes, and I know plenty of others who have been holding onto their cash for a real sonic game forever.

I was joking anyway 8P. But the majority of people who do complain must obviously be buying these games, because they still do sell well...otherwise SEGA wouldn't be making them. The only one I think that had really been effected by negativity was Sonic 06, but I don't have sales figures for those so whatever. I'm also not a lemming haha.

[speedfreak]

The problem is deciding where to draw the line between backtracking and regressing. What some people see as a proper amount of backtracking, I see as an unacceptable regression.

What's wrong with having a throwback to the classics now and then? Are you afraid that if PN receives favorable reviews, sells really well, and is loved by the fans that Sega will continue to output nothing but classic style Sonic games?

Edited January 17, 2010 by speedfreak

[Remy]

Why is style an issue?

The only thing we should be concerned about is whether the game is bad or good.

[Bubonic Bunny]

The problem is deciding where to draw the line between backtracking and regressing. What some people see as a proper amount of backtracking, I see as an unacceptable regression.

I am one for either extreme. If they're making a 2d game it should go back to the retro formula, although that doesn't automatically make the 2d a regressed game. You can still add new things to the classic 2d game play keeping it new and fun, without ruining the original foundation it was built on. Spin dash, tails, knuckles, power shields are all great examples of this. I hope needle mouse doesn't regress back to sonic 2 and builds on what was left on the plate from S3&K.

On the other hand if they're going to do a 3d game, I think they should keep the game fast paced and fun in that way. They can push away from the retro formula because you simply can not take all the fun 2d elements and make them good in 3d. 2d is simply sonic's best platform but that doesn't mean they can't do interesting and different things with him in 3d. Unleashed is a good example of straying away from original sonic and making a new 3d sonic forumla that works.

So yeah I believe that going back to classic sonic is in no way regression. And I think they should make their 3d titles something special from the 2d one, sort of like unleashed and try not to be like the old games. It has failed to many times in an attempt to do it.

Edited January 17, 2010 by Bubonic Bunny

[Aquaslash]

because none of them fucking died and are identical to sonic in the first place.

I can't think of a character that's MORE identical to Sonic then Shadow.

Shoot, Sonic's own siblings (albeit in another canon) are less identical to him than Shadow.

Edited January 17, 2010 by Aquaslash

[Remy]

I can't think of a character that's MORE identical to Sonic then Shadow.

Shoot, Sonic's own siblings (albeit in another canon) are less identical to him than Shadow.

Exactly, he pretty much exists so we have a Sonic to play as on the dark side of SA2