Sonic the Hedgehog 4

[Aquaslash]

If you read the thread you started you would see people made plenty of good points to why they're more valuable characters then a lot of the other trash in the franchise.

Too many pages to follow, but bring up these points and I will debunk every last one. Tails as a character is no more valuable to the franchise than Silver.

[Nepenthe]

Final thoughts on this whole fanbase matter. I'm unsure at how appropriate they are now, thus they're in some nifty spoilers. Click or don't click at your own risk.

This is something the Sonic series needed to do

don't get stuck so far up your arse of what you believe is needed for a success is absolute to everyone.

Mmm, irony is delicious.

I know I'm risking reignition of bullshit, but this isn't my goal. In fact, I pray that this is the last post on the matter. But I still believe the point of contention has been missed entirely, and it is in that misunderstanding that has led to all of the rigamarole over the past day as opposed to the fact that some people weren't as jolly as others.

From what I witnessed, very few people, if any, hold any ire towards the game and its contents because it doesn't align with their immediate tastes; In fact, most people are dying to know more about it because it's a new Sonic game. What we hold ire at is the hypocrisy and elitism.

No one knows enough to make an educated prediction on what the game might play like when it's all said and done, which means that any kneejerk reaction to its marketing and information-- neutral, negative, or positive-- should rationally be considered equivalent. But as the arguing has proven, this is not the case. If I'm to say that Sonic being the only playable character isn't a universally true indicator of quality, even as logically sound a statement as it is, I'm more likely to get blasted than the person who jumps on that piece of information positively. Unfortunately, the inverse would be and always has been true for a modern Sonic game-- Fans are given all the room in the world to make apocalyptic predictions over new aesthetic decisions whose ultimate triviality will never, ever, ever equal the vitriol they receive.

That is why some people are put off right now. It's not that we hate the game or Sega's decision to take this particular installment in its direction, or anything of the sort. It's that the classic fans have freer reign to be excited about the games that cater to them more than modern fans do with the games that cater to them. And you can talk about what works and what doesn't until the cows come home-- It's irrelevant to the real issue at hand which is all about being fair and considerate to people with different opinions.

If we really desire for this fanbase to become tighter and more familial, double standards that negatively impact all sects of fans need to be eliminated, this being one of them. Those of us who are mature and can keep in mind that we are all Sonic fans at heart will gladly let those who prefer the classic games have their time in the sun without ruining that for them, especially since we're aware that such games aren't exactly a dime a dozen in the first place.

But that's only if you simply provide the same to other fans in return. Really, is a little respect too much to ask for?

Alright, the game. I'm neutral over cast size. Sega can be as thrifty or stingy with appearances as they want to be so long as the cast that appears doesn't negatively impact the experience as a whole. Sonic only is fine for this game, although there would've been nothing particularly wrong with old or new characters appearing either beyond dissatisfying their critics. If this is as classic as Sega has implied, then surely any extras would be playable like they used to be back in the day, whether it was through the main campaign or a possible multiplayer mode. Regardless, they certainly would have been optionable and unobtrusive, which is why I will never understand why we've decided that Shadow cannot make an appearance in such a title. Allow him to utilize those air shoes of his to reach higher places and disallow his presence to have a major impact on the story, assuming there is to be one, and we don't have a problem.

Also, I'm not sure if this has been asked before-- probably has-- but with Shellcracker having been updated to some significant degree, how do you think this will impact Sonic's design? Do you think we'll see either the old or new design take the stage, a completely foreign design, or perhaps as we have here with Shellcracker, even a stylistic rendering of either old or new Sonic?

Edited January 16, 2010 by Nepenthe

[Yong]

I'd be perfectly fine if we only played as Sonic in Sonic games from now on. I'd rather they do spin off games for Sonic's friends ala the Mario series (Think Yoshie's Island, Super Princess Peach, Luigi's Mansion, Donkey Kong Country, Wario Land, etc.). I hated how Sonic felt like just another character instead of the star from Sonic Adventure - Sonic 06.

I guess I wouldn't be against optional characters that basically played like Sonic (like in the classics), but I personally NEVER want to completely change gameplay styles back and forth again. It really kills a games flow IMO.

And people complain the Sonic franchise has too many characters. I think Sega needs to get the public's favor back for the Sonic series first before they consider any kind of spin-off with a character that isn't Sonic.

[Blue Blood]

Too many pages to follow, but bring up these points and I will debunk every last one. Tails as a character is no more valuable to the franchise than Silver.

*removes annoying colour*

Tails means more to the series than Silver because he has been around for so much longer and is associated with a better side of it.- that makes him more valuable.

The fact that Tails and Knuckles existed in the old days is one of the main reasons people would have liked to see them return over anyone post-Adventure. I personally feel the same way, though wouldn't have complained if we actually saw a new character for this title (whatever the title may be, lol).

[speedfreak]

And people complain the Sonic franchise has too many characters. I think Sega needs to get the public's favor back for the Sonic series first before they consider any kind of spin-off with a character that isn't Sonic.

Absolutely, but once his favor is back don't start jamming in all his pals. Leave that shit for spin off titles IMO.

[Aquaslash]

*removes annoying colour*

Tails means more to the series than Silver because he has been around for so much longer and is associated with a better side of it.- that makes him more valuable.

The fact that Tails and Knuckles existed in the old days is one of the main reasons people would have liked to see them return over anyone post-Adventure. I personally feel the same way, though wouldn't have complained if we actually saw a new character for this title (whatever the title may be, lol).

*inserts AWESOME color*

See, that's the hypocritical BS that I'm talking about. Tails and Knuckles get a pass ONLY because of seniority. You'll never sell Tails as a better character than Silver because if Silver existed back then, he'd be JUST as popular. The fact still remains that those two don't deserve a place in this title, or any other title above any other character than Sonic himself. Even Eggman can take a hike because a villain is a villain is a villain.

[Bubonic Bunny]

*inserts AWESOME color*

See, that's the hypocritical BS that I'm talking about. Tails and Knuckles get a pass ONLY because of seniority. You'll never sell Tails as a better character than Silver because if Silver existed back then, he'd be JUST as popular. The fact still remains that those two don't deserve a place in this title, or any other title above any other character than Sonic himself. Even Eggman can take a hike because a villain is a villain is a villain.

This isn't true at all, didn't I already make a counter argument in my last post. Knuckles and tails opened up different ways to play through levels and overall made the games better. If you think people want them only for nostalgia's sake then you're pretty thick. But even then is it really unfair to discredit a desire for something in a game over nostalgia? I don't believe so, things like tails and knuckles made sonic better therefore it would be nice to see them again.

But if we go by your mentality that nothing nostalgic matters then we might as have a game with just sonic running through super mario, because all that matters in a sonic game is that it is just about sonic and villains and friends mean nothing.

[Blue Blood]

*inserts AWESOME color*

See, that's the hypocritical BS that I'm talking about. Tails and Knuckles get a pass ONLY because of seniority. You'll never sell Tails as a better character than Silver because if Silver existed back then, he'd be JUST as popular. The fact still remains that those two don't deserve a place in this title, or any other title above any other character than Sonic himself. Even Eggman can take a hike because a villain is a villain is a villain.

ur pink ur gay lolz

Tails and Knuckles don't 'deserve' a place in this game, correct. However, as something that's supposed to be a special and nostalgic title, created with the older fans (meaning have been fans for a longer time) in mind, Silver would not be that suitable. It's got nothing to do with his abilities btw, because they can be as flexible as thegame demands. The same matter of nostalgia and working to be like the series was so many years ago also puts Eggman as a shoe-in.

The biggest problem with Silver in this game would be his story- you know, being from xhundred years in the future. That, and it's the first (hopefully not only) game of its time. Bring out a sequel, dust off the Time Stones and enter Silver for all I care. But for the first, keep it like it was before.

Whoever is the better character is entirely a matter of your own opinion. There are several things that effect that, too. Blaze is very popular and came about with a game that was quite acclaimed. Silver on the other hand is almost the polar opposite, having debuted in a less than stellar game and since then having story roles in only 2 relatively unplayed games.

EDIT: Bubonic Bunny and I are arguing different cases. lol

EDIT Again: I think I need to clarify something. I said "keep it like it was before", but I'm certainly not looking for a rom hack here. No, that would be seriously disappointing, much like the NSMB series has been. The first 5 main Sonic games each had a 'feel' behind them, a trend that needs to continue

Edited January 16, 2010 by Blue Blood

[Yong]

Nice to see that the fans can't agree on what they want.

[Blue Blood]

Nice to see that the fans can't agree on what they want.

I'm pretty damn tired of this. The Sonic series received a revamp when it was still popular, and since then has never remained the same from game to game. Ergo, several different fans have several different ideals. And then there's the ultimate idea of personal preference. Simple. Easy. Why do you think Project Needlemouse exists in the first place? It's being made to appease a different side of the fanbase that has been getting most of the attention for a long while.

[Indigo Rush]

No offense, but seriously Aqualash, I'm tired of highlighting every single one of your posts. Blue on blue doesn't work.

Just saying.

[Scarlet2106]

<hurr>I do not like people playing games that I, personally, do not like. I also do not like game developers making them.

I think you people should all like exactly the same games as me.</durr>

I prefer having a variety. Give me games with only Sonic, give me games with all the characters, hell, give me Big and Froggy's Fishing Adventure featuring Shadow the Hedgehog and Accordian Guy. Keep arguing, people, and make sure neither 'side' wins. In the end, I'll get everything I like anyway.

Unless it's Sonic Chronicles.

Edited January 16, 2010 by Arcane

[Diogenes]

This isn't true at all, didn't I already make a counter argument in my last post. Knuckles and tails opened up different ways to play through levels and overall made the games better.

So could any other character, if applied properly. The only reason people give Tails and Knuckles a pass is because they've done it before. Every other character is blasted for not doing it when they've barely even been given a proper chance (yeah, yeah, they had a chance when they first appeared, and they fucked up. But most of these characters have never even been playable in a 2D game, much less a classic-styled one, yet half the fanbase would consider it blasphemous if it's even suggested that they be playable in Needlemouse).

But even then is it really unfair to discredit a desire for something in a game over nostalgia?

If it's just about nostalgia, fine. But it's never just nostalgia. Oh, no, the fate of the universe hangs in the balance! If they don't do things exactly like the Genesis games, the whole game is worthless trash! It's the same stupid divide that ruins everything else in this godforsaken fanbase. All old is good, all new is bad, anyone who disagrees is an idiot who ruins Sonic just by existing. "Nostalgia" is never treated like a welcome bonus, but as a divine mandate.

[Badnik Zero]

I hear what you're saying Aquaslash, since it's not the characters themselves that are so bad, but what Sega does with them. Still though, there are characters that have been in more games and better games. Knuckles, by being in the classic games has the advantage of being remembered for better games, back when Sonic was selling things like Spaghetti-Os. People will always ask for him. Of course other newer characters are popular, but you don't really hear people complaining that Cream isn't always playable, so the popularity argument only goes as far as you need it to. One reason I'd like Shadow playable in a game like this is just to reconcile the old with the new. People aren't going to think the characters are shit if they put them into good games. In Tails' case though, I'd argue he's more important because he's Sonic's sidekick. It puts him above the other characters if only because he always has a reason to be besides Sonic, just from a story perspective. And gameplay perspective, since he was player 2 back in the day. It's something people expect. Is there any way to take this to another topic, btw?

Edited January 16, 2010 by Cupcake Hedgehog

[Aquaslash]

ur pink ur gay lolz

1. Tails and Knuckles don't 'deserve' a place in this game, correct. However, as something that's supposed to be a special and nostalgic title, created with the older fans (meaning have been fans for a longer time) in mind, Silver would not be that suitable. It's got nothing to do with his abilities btw, because they can be as flexible as thegame demands. The same matter of nostalgia and working to be like the series was so many years ago also puts Eggman as a shoe-in.

2. The biggest problem with Silver in this game would be his story- you know, being from xhundred years in the future. That, and it's the first (hopefully not only) game of its time. Bring out a sequel, dust off the Time Stones and enter Silver for all I care. But for the first, keep it like it was before.

3. Whoever is the better character is entirely a matter of your own opinion. There are several things that effect that, too. Blaze is very popular and came about with a game that was quite acclaimed. Silver on the other hand is almost the polar opposite, having debuted in a less than stellar game and since then having story roles in only 2 relatively unplayed games.

Gonna reply to you because you understand what I'm getting at more than the other guy did. Numbered for convenience

1. You hit the nail on the head with abilities. Tails and Knuckles seem to always get a pass for this, but everyone else's abilities can improve on things too. I'm not going to argue the points on nostalgia as being relevant to this game, because that wasn't really what I was on about. I was more on to Tails and Knuckles in general being favored for totally bs reasons.

2. See the latter part of 1. I'm not on about this game specifically.

3. Again, you're spot on. The characters should be judged on their own merits. Not because of any nostalgia or being in bad games that were out of their control.

Also tough guys post in pink :V

Also Yong, you expect the fanbase as a whole to agree on something? What are you, nuts? XD I think there's a clear division here between classic and modern fans.

Now for something related to this game, since it's classic and all. How about...oh wait, I said Super Sonic already. WELL DO IT SEGA

[Blue Blood]

1. You hit the nail on the head with abilities. Tails and Knuckles seem to always get a pass for this, but everyone else's abilities can improve on things too. I'm not going to argue the points on nostalgia as being relevant to this game, because that wasn't really what I was on about. I was more on to Tails and Knuckles in general being favored for totally bs reasons.

2. See the latter part of 1. I'm not on about this game specifically.

3. Again, you're spot on. The characters should be judged on their own merits. Not because of any nostalgia or being in bad games that were out of their control.

4. Now for something related to this game, since it's classic and all. How about...oh wait, I said Super Sonic already. WELL DO IT SEGA

1. Agreed. Tails and Knuckles are held on pedestal for being old and relevant to the classics, Amy too to a lesser extent. It happens with absolutely anything. Old episodes of The Simpsons are better, music from the old days is better than the tac they have today, the old way way that my grandmother taught me is the right way.

2. Can I hear your opinion on this anyway? Just for the sake of it. I meant to say "first game of its type" not "first game of its time" btw,

3. Yup!

4. Super Sonic playable as a bonus in all stages was classic, so it really seems likely that it will exist here. Special Stages too plz.

Edited January 16, 2010 by Blue Blood

[Yong]

Also Yong, you expect the fanbase as a whole to agree on something? What are you, nuts? XD I think there's a clear division here between classic and modern fans.

Yeah, but when you get Bubonic's post followed by Blue Blood's post, you have to laugh.

[Blue Blood]

Yeah, but when you get Bubonic's post followed by Blue Blood's post, you have to laugh.

True. I started typing before Bubonic posted, so it was definitely funny to look at afterwards.

[Solid SOAP]

To be honest I really don't understand people's complaints with this game reguarding character usage, every "big" Sonic game since Sonic Adventure has featured more than enough new characters and/or gameplay styles to toy with besides Sonic's, I don't see why it's a crime that fans of the classic gameplay are getting ONE game since Sonic 3 & Knuckles where you only need to beat the game as Sonic to get the full experience. Chances are after Needlemouse comes out the next game will be something like Sonic Ultra Extreme XXX and will feature Sonic turning into a mecha with like 12 playable characters anyway, so just wait for that and let us have our ONE classic-styled game, mmk?

[Meow]

Haha all this arguing is dumb...everyone here knows that no matter what it turns out like, even the people who are complaining are going to pick it up - just like every other time 8)

I AM...only...I'm not complaining. BUT I STILL AM

[Kiljoy]

Here's a reason why Tails and Knuckles are better, they are a bit more creative and interesting. Tails is a young kid who looks up to Sonic and whose design is more creative, Knuckles' power is kind of the anti Sonic, where sonic relies on speed Knuckles relies on power. Shadow and Silver are both hedgehogs as well and design wise do not really differentiate themselves, it's like Sonic team saw this and decided to make fun of it themselves with Amy. Shadow is too much like Sonic, he even has the super speed, then he has the problem with his angst.

Silver has the psychic powers which seemed at the time to be like the developers just played second sight or psiops (both of which came out in 2005) and said "hey we need a psychic character, and also lets say he is from the future" honestly it seemed kinda dumb. Amy seemed like she could be an ok character, the little girl with a crush on the hero, but then they redid her and she is more annoying. I'm not going into every character because there are so many, but I do admit some new characters are ok and it does, in the end, come down to personal preference.

[Chooch]

I still just want real information. That is the only thing I've really been whining about.

I'm not the type of person to wet myself over concept art and a retelling of shit I already know about the game. It's dumb.

[speedfreak]

Even Eggman can take a hike because a villain is a villain is a villain.

You crossed the line.

[Diogenes]

I don't see why it's a crime that fans of the classic gameplay are getting ONE game since Sonic 3 & Knuckles where you only need to beat the game as Sonic to get the full experience. Chances are after Needlemouse comes out the next game will be something like Sonic Ultra Extreme XXX and will feature Sonic turning into a mecha with like 12 playable characters anyway, so just wait for that and let us have our ONE classic-styled game, mmk?

I don't want "Sonic Ultra Extreme XXX". I've never wanted a game like that.

Maybe you're getting your "one game", but I still haven't gotten my "one game". And I see no reason why your "one game" should automatically take precedence over mine.

[Bubonic Bunny]

Haha all this arguing is dumb...everyone here knows that no matter what it turns out like, even the people who are complaining are going to pick it up - just like every other time 8)

I AM...only...I'm not complaining. BUT I STILL AM

Speak for yourself. A lot of people who come here aren't lemmings who will buy a terrible game that has sonic slapped on the front. This is the first time I am giving Sega a chance to get money out of my wallet since heroes, and I know plenty of others who have been holding onto their cash for a real sonic game forever.

Edited January 16, 2010 by Bubonic Bunny