Megathread The Lara-Su Chronicles and Ken Penders topic - READ PAGE 164, POST 4096

[Dr. Detective]

10 hours ago, Polkadi~☆ said:

It's ironic, since Ken Penders tries to parade himself as the exact opposite. But for all this, I guess opposites really do attract.

 

And Ian Flynn made a response to this news, by the way:

I probably shouldn't have but I lost my shit reading that. 

It's like the chronicles of this thread are actually the highlights of a shitty "Adult" cartoon. It's sometimes hard to fathom real life being this goofy.

[DaddlerTheDalek]

Surge ist about to make her debut in the IDW Sonic comics and now Rush! Comics Scourge says hello. Coincidence?

[CertifiedNobody]

5 hours ago, Kazhnuz said:

In a way, I'm impressed by Penders capacity to add a new layer of shit on the whole deal, each time. I mean, I was already annoyed by the legality of the project, but wow between what they did in earlier comics and the lead artists, it really suck (especially with a character for Scourge, where I sense the "glorified asshole" bullshit coming).

But eh I'm not surprised.

I honestly would have been interested by a comics with Scourge, but there is enough red flag to make me nope the whole thing.

5 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

Somebody else.

You still won't like that person, but for fresh new reasons.

At risk of being controversial, I want to say give it a chance. I don't know when exactly the Rush comic was written, but it's entirely possible that they've grown in the years since then. Comparing Rush and the Zelda fancomic from a few years ago, there's a very noticeable rise in quality.

That said, I don't know who they are, and could be wrong. Maybe they suck but the comic is good, maybe they've changed and the comic will still be edgy garbage, who know? Either way, people change fast, and I'd prefer to wait until they show who they are now before attacking their character.

[Dreadknux]

I'm all for giving things a chance but this statement isn't great considering the supposed red flags (which aren't addressed). But perhaps more concerning than that is seeing the kind of people that are supporting the comic attacking those who appear to have raised those red flags in good faith. And using particular politically-charged buzzwords and talking points while they're at it.

I don't think I want to touch this one with a ten-foot pole, unfortunately. At least until the dust and confusion settles down. It is way too messy.

[CertifiedNobody]

18 minutes ago, Dreadknux said:

I'm all for giving things a chance but this statement isn't great considering the supposed red flags (which aren't addressed). But perhaps more concerning than that is seeing the kind of people that are supporting the comic attacking those who appear to have raised those red flags in good faith. And using particular politically-charged buzzwords and talking points while they're at it.

I don't think I want to touch this one with a ten-foot pole, unfortunately. At least until the dust and confusion settles down. It is way too messy.

It's very messy. This topic was more fun before politics and past work came in. At least then it was just about the design, edgy-ness, and legal implications.

[Zonic 2099]

I don't see myself buying this which sucks since I loved Scourge.

Ken somehow having ownership of a version of Sonic the Hedgehog who was born a bully and wears leather is still a bitter pill to swallow but while I appreciate that they mildly changed the design for him for this comic, I still don't like that they are using the design that Ken played zero part in making, let alone long gone from the book. Even ignoring the stolen design from the Flynn era he still resembles Sonic way too much.

Like it's not a bad start for a redesign in progress but it still needs a pretty big overhaul.

[horridus]

Is it weird that I kinda knew it would be this way? Not that it would unfold specifically like this, but that whatever Penders licensed his crap out to, there would be some catch. Some horrible little detail that'd completely overshadow everything else. Because that's exactly what I figured would happen, and lo, it has come to happen... again I didn't predict it'd quite go this PARTICULAR way, but still. 

Anyway... there was a time I might've felt something. Outrage, anger, maybe morbid curiosity, but in truth this entire thing has left me cold. I will say that there's something deeply repulsive about this book explicitly using the name and traits that Flynn and Spaz gave Scourge that actually made the character escape the mediocrity of being Evil Sonic, while neither of those individuals are going to see any money or acknowledgement from this book. 

As for Penders... I  think I'd be more upset about his willful blindness to what he's lent himself to here, but that would require that he ever took his stated beliefs seriously to begin with. 

[Zaysho]

Honestly even divorced of the stuff surrounding the creative team, as someone who liked Scourge and old Archie, this doesn't really hold me. It's not that I just liked the characters and would take them however I got them, I liked them in a very specific context, and that was as a part of Sonic's world. This was never going to appeal to me and I wouldn't have supported it just on the grounds that it's Penders dangling a shiny key in Archie fans' faces and sidestepping the fact that he is a direct cause of why I didn't get to keep seeing those characters in the first place. This was always going to come off as scummy because that's what his projects are.

[Kazhnuz]

4 hours ago, CertifiedNobody said:

At risk of being controversial, I want to say give it a chance.

Honestly, I won't.

This comics is messy copyright-wise for a lot of reason said before, I've yet to see any real acknowledgement of the work that Ian Flynn put on the character even while he came up with the friggin' name they use, we already have TWO big red flags about the project, it enable Ken Penders to do all his shit, and the very reason that makes Scourge a compelling character (his relationship to Sonic, basically how with the same core trait than Sonic he is "just a bully" while Sonic become the heroes of mobius, and how it makes him furious to be just an "evil variant" of Sonic) aren't there.

I've enough reason to not want to support this project, and to give my support to more interesting web/comics that have more to show me than just "hey looks its this cool character from a comics you liked, given to us by someone that shouldn't have any right on him" and not as many things that make me wary of them. There are already a lot of good project that I support/want to support, and except if something really good come to show me that I'm wrong, I've no interest in supporting them.

You (and anybody) can be interested by that comic (my position of this whole matters doesn't force you to think anything, obviously), just that honestly, nobody has to "give them a chance", if the different issues make them wary of this project.

[CertifiedNobody]

11 minutes ago, Kazhnuz said:

Honestly, I won't.

This comics is messy copyright-wise for a lot of reason said before, I've yet to see any real acknowledgement of the work that Ian Flynn put on the character even while he came up with the friggin' name they use, we already have TWO big red flags about the project, it enable Ken Penders to do all his shit, and the very reason that makes Scourge a compelling character (his relationship to Sonic, basically how with the same core trait than Sonic he is "just a bully" while Sonic become the heroes of mobius, and how it makes him furious to be just an "evil variant" of Sonic) aren't there.

I've enough reason to not want to support this project, and to give my support to more interesting web/comics that have more to show me than just "hey looks its this cool character from a comics you liked, given to us by someone that shouldn't have any right on him" and not as many things that make me wary of them. There are already a lot of good project that I support/want to support, and except if something really good come to show me that I'm wrong, I've no interest in supporting them.

You (and anybody) can be interested by that comic (my position of this whole matters doesn't force you to think anything, obviously), just that honestly, nobody has to "give them a chance", if the different issues make them wary of this project.

Oh yeah, I don't mean anyone should be forced to support it if they aren't interested, just that it shouldn't immediately be dismissed as bad because of Lara-Su Chronicles or Rush.

[Zaysho]

The Lara-Su Chronicles is enough of a reason to dismiss any projects related to Penders, whether they're just licensed to others like "Scourge" or by him. They're all shitty, cynical cashgrabs that reskin something that could be original with something some Sonic fans cared about, without any of the things they actually cared about. This isn't even getting into the "remasters" he has planned for "Mobius: 25 Years Later," which are literally pirated copies of the Archie releases, provided to him by a fan, repackaged with some additions to the art and little else.

Go for it if you want to give it a shot, but I couldn't support this. This has nothing to do with the book I actually liked, this just feels insulting.

[SBR2]

16 hours ago, CertifiedNobody said:

I really hope people don't start harassing the team the same way they do Penders. Unless they show themselves to be massive a-holes (by their words and actions, not by their political views), I don't want them to be treated with the same mockery as Penders just because they wanted to publish a Scourge story.

I just thought saying it's going to tonally be like Venom was funny. It's not that deep man.

Anyway on hid original comic the head writer has said that he's grown since that and admits that it was maybe too far. So hopefully nothing like that happens in this comic but I'm still expecting it to be overly edgy. I mean...that friggin cigar, man.

9 hours ago, Demon Slayer Ultima said:

So that scourge comic page posted this statement regarding the info:

aaaaand I just noticed they have a patreon too

...How is it a misinterpretation? The artist IS following these people and has several islamiphobic tweets in their likes.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

On 11/16/2021 at 10:40 AM, horridus said:

Is it weird that I kinda knew it would be this way? Not that it would unfold specifically like this, but that whatever Penders licensed his crap out to, there would be some catch. Some horrible little detail that'd completely overshadow everything else. Because that's exactly what I figured would happen, and lo, it has come to happen... again I didn't predict it'd quite go this PARTICULAR way, but still. 

Anyway... there was a time I might've felt something. Outrage, anger, maybe morbid curiosity, but in truth this entire thing has left me cold. I will say that there's something deeply repulsive about this book explicitly using the name and traits that Flynn and Spaz gave Scourge that actually made the character escape the mediocrity of being Evil Sonic, while neither of those individuals are going to see any money or acknowledgement from this book. 

As for Penders... I  think I'd be more upset about his willful blindness to what he's lent himself to here, but that would require that he ever took his stated beliefs seriously to begin with. 

Let's also analyze how this is a growing case of stones in glass houses for Mr. Penders.

I would like to remind everyone just how much he has insisted on being the paragon of rights for the creator, the one who would strike down any injustices done against the less fortunate as he puts it.

So here he is, gladly reaping the benefits, not just in a money grubbing manner, but off the backbone of creators who made a concept into something so much better, it shouldn't even really be associated with his copyright claim, but here we are.

He's also claimed to be a paragon of morals, so yeah, him licensing this mess to a crew of questionably moral folk just adds to the pile of lies and hypocrisy that are Ken Penders.

[King Scoopa Koopa]

1 hour ago, SBR2 said:

I just thought saying it's going to tonally be like Venom was funny. It's not that deep man.

I don't know about tone, but I can definitely see where a comparison would be drawn: Venom is like an anti-Spider-man whose origin is so deeply tied to Spider-man, yet they went and made a Venom movie without any of that.

As far as this goes, it just feels like a Sonic parody, rather than a distinct creation, especially with the cigar. Somewhere between MAD or Cracked and what Adolescent Radioactive Black Belt Hamsters were to the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.

2 hours ago, Kazhnuz said:

I've enough reason to not want to support this project, and to give my support to more interesting web/comics that have more to show me than just "hey looks its this cool character from a comics you liked, given to us by someone that shouldn't have any right on him" and not as many things that make me wary of them. There are already a lot of good project that I support/want to support, and except if something really good come to show me that I'm wrong, I've no interest in supporting them.

Seems like a good time to remind people that this exists, from one of the true creators of Scourge, no less: 

 

[CertifiedNobody]

29 minutes ago, KingScoopaKoopa said:

As far as this goes, it just feels like a Sonic parody, rather than a distinct creation, especially with the cigar. Somewhere between MAD or Cracked and what Adolescent Radioactive Black Belt Hamsters were to the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.

Ironic considering the TMNT were a parody of Daredevil.

[AlienBunny]

So can I clear something up? Names cannot be copyright. They can be trademark. Sonic the Hedgehog is trademark to SEGA.

Designs are copyright. The design of Sonic the Hedgehog is copyright to SEGA.

When you create a character that design is automatically copyright to you.

So Scourge should be copyright Spaz, but that seems to be unclear? Somehow that went to Penders?

Vague concepts cannot be copyrighted. SEGA can make their own version of Evil Sonic as Evil is a vague concept.

[Razule]

A character is more than a name, even without a design though, right? If I took a character from a book I didn't write, and used them as if they were my own creation, I could be sued. Even if they had no canon design beyond a description. The written appearance and unique traits of a character fall under copyright.

Evil Sonic and Scourge are the same character, Spaz only redesigned him. Even if it is down to design, and assuming Penders didn't draw the first concept of "Sonic in a leather jacket and sunglasses", Evil Sonic first appeared in an issue drawn by Dave Manak. 

[Shaddy Zaphod]

It's not about what may or may not be his legal right, it's about him being a complete shithead.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

24 minutes ago, Razule said:

Evil Sonic and Scourge are the same character, Spaz only redesigned him. Even if it is down to design, and assuming Penders didn't draw the first concept of "Sonic in a leather jacket and sunglasses", Evil Sonic first appeared in an issue drawn by Dave Manak. 

Then shouldn't that work against him since Evil Sonic in of itself is taking Sonic's design and altering it? 

And again, what stops anyone, literally anyone from taking a character from TL-SC, giving them a biker jacket and sunglasses, calling them 'Evil Lara-Su' and saying "this is mine, I own this"? 

[Razule]

22 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

Then shouldn't that work against him since Evil Sonic in of itself is taking Sonic's design and altering it? 

And again, what stops anyone, literally anyone from taking a character from TL-SC, giving them a biker jacket and sunglasses, calling them 'Evil Lara-Su' and saying "this is mine, I own this"? 

You'd think so. 

The Penders' trial turning out the way it did was a result of a very specific set of circumstances. I don't think just anyone would be able to replicate it, unless the other party was just as incompetent as Archie. 

[Ryannumber1gamer]

21 minutes ago, Razule said:

You'd think so. 

The Penders' trial turning out the way it did was a result of a very specific set of circumstances. I don't think just anyone would be able to replicate it, unless the other party was just as incompetent as Archie. 

To my knowledge, Evil Sonic and such characters weren't settled in court, though. Penders won the lawsuit, and just decided to lump in Evil Sonic and Robo-Robotnik as him owning them, assuming the status of others like Lara-Su and such applied to them, even though Evil Sonic and Robo-Robotnik are characters who originate from SEGA owned characters. I'm also pretty certain the only reason Scourge was among the nixed characters was just because no one wanted to deal with Penders again if he brought it to court, so they decided to cut their losses.

Maybe I'm just talking out of my ass and I'm entirely wrong, or hell - maybe it was settled in court, I honestly don't know, but I just don't see how you can literally slap a new wardrobe onto a character, or hell - in Robo-Robotnik's case, make him a robot, and then say that's a wholefully new creation. If such a loophole existed, it would be ridiculously easy to exploit, and I fail to see how even with Archie's incompetence, SEGA wouldn't step in to ensure that their own characters and designs weren't just being nicked by technicality. 

[King Scoopa Koopa]

1 hour ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

Then shouldn't that work against him since Evil Sonic in of itself is taking Sonic's design and altering it? 

And again, what stops anyone, literally anyone from taking a character from TL-SC, giving them a biker jacket and sunglasses, calling them 'Evil Lara-Su' and saying "this is mine, I own this"? 

Because Penders lives in a world where he's allowed to do things, but no one else is.

1 hour ago, Razule said:

A character is more than a name, even without a design though, right? If I took a character from a book I didn't write, and used them as if they were my own creation, I could be sued. Even if they had no canon design beyond a description. The written appearance and unique traits of a character fall under copyright.

Evil Sonic and Scourge are the same character, Spaz only redesigned him. Even if it is down to design, and assuming Penders didn't draw the first concept of "Sonic in a leather jacket and sunglasses", Evil Sonic first appeared in an issue drawn by Dave Manak. 

If Penders was just doing this with the Evil Sonic he made and not the Scourge others turned him into (as he disparaged them and their work all the while), or even had the decency to do his own redesign, this would be a very different conversation.

[Rabid-Coot]

In some ways this project feels like a legal canary for Ken, let someone else publish paid content and see what happens.

[Rabbitearsblog]

1 hour ago, Rabid-Coot said:

In some ways this project feels like a legal canary for Ken, let someone else publish paid content and see what happens.

Yeah, it feels like that whoever takes on this project, will probably pay the price for something Ken Penders did.

[CertifiedNobody]

1 hour ago, Rabid-Coot said:

In some ways this project feels like a legal canary for Ken, let someone else publish paid content and see what happens.

Just just that. He can also use it to gauge peoples interest in his characters, and let someone else flop before he does. That might be why he's held off so long on Lara-Su, and why the only thing he's releasing soon is a reprint.