[DELETED]

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Well, as far as Chronicles is concerned, Emerl's really not much more than a grunt, right? There are other Gizoids. And he's not even responsible for wiping out a civilization then, is he? Chronicles reduces him.

Emerl was the most powerful of the Gizoids. No other Gizoid was capable of doing what he was in copying someone's abilities, and it was his creation that essentially flung the Nocturnus into the Twilight Cage, which is saying a lot for someone who was a mere grunt.

The other Gizoids were either grunts, elite grunts, or praetorian grunts as they either had an invincibility shield but basic attacks like that of the Centurions, elemental powers like that of Scylla and Charyb, or were just the imperial guards like the ones protecting Ix, but none of them seemed to have the specs that Emerl did.

Edited November 8, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Diogenes]

Alright, so he's a buff grunt. Still a pretty big step down from going crazy and wiping out an entire civilization.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Alright, so he's a buff grunt. Still a pretty big step down from going crazy and wiping out an entire civilization.

More like a super grunt. And mind you, this is the same character who was carrying all the Chaos Emeralds and managed to get his ass kicked by normal Sonic. Also the same character who absorbed a lot of weapons and destroyed a large portion of the ARK. You could say that's a step down even before Chronicles came in.

Edited November 8, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Diogenes]

The hero's always going to save the day. That I don't much mind.

But taking away his backstory like that I do consider a loss.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

The hero's always going to save the day. That I don't much mind.

But taking away his backstory like that I do consider a loss.

What exactly did they take away from his backstory?

[Diogenes]

Destroying a civilization.

[Komodin]

What exactly did they take away from his backstory?

His uniqueness, I'm guessing? I mean, in Sonic Battle, they didn't really allude to the existence of other Gizoids (E-1210 Phi doesn't count) than him.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Destroying a civilization.

That's it? Dude, that is shallow even for you.

It was assumed he destroyed the civilization because there was nothing left of it, and no one knew what happened to it beyond the fact that Emerl was the only piece of it still around. Emerl's creation resulted in said civilization's banishment to another dimension; he indirectly caused their "destruction" that way.

Edited November 8, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Diogenes]

And you're seriously going to equate something else destroying/abducting a civilization because Emerl exists, to Emerl destroying it himself? According to Chronicles, we don't have any reason to believe Emerl's power is even a fraction of what it would take to wipe out an entire civilization. He's just a strong dude who, supposedly, happened to be the tipping point for the godsquid to remove the Nocturnus from Earth.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

And you're seriously going to equate something else destroying/abducting a civilization because Emerl exists, to Emerl destroying it himself?

Yes. Because out of all the Gizoids they made, had Emerl not been created they wouldn't have been sent away to the Twilight Cage in the first place, and yet his creation is the very thing that got them sent away to begin with. He was the most powerful out of all the Gizoids, and said power was the tipping point that got them sent away. Do I seriously need to repeat this over and over again?

According to Chronicles, we don't have any reason to believe Emerl's power is even a fraction of what it would take to wipe out an entire civilization. He's just a strong dude who, supposedly, happened to be the tipping point for the godsquid to remove the Nocturnus from Earth.

Emerl had the ability to copy and absorb powers that he saw, that was part of him being the strongest out of all the Gizoids that they had. The fact that he was mentioned in Battle to be capable of destroying a large portion of the ARK after absorbing a large cache of weapons is a testament to that, and who could imagine the destruction he could create if he were to be capable of absorbing the Eclipse Cannon into his system?

And that's not all: In Chronicles, Nestor states that Emerl and the Gizoids did in fact lead to the Noctunus's "destruction", in a way as he states that the creation of the Gizoids and especially Emerl, served as the breakthrough that lead to the Nocturnus Clan being whisked away to the Twilight Cage, due to the power they gave the Nocturnus Clan. In other words, Emerl indirectly destroyed their civilization.

Which is no different to what I just told you.

Edited November 8, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Diogenes]

Yes. Because had Emerl not been created, they wouldn't have been sent away to the Twilight Cage in the first place, and yet his creation is the very thing that got them sent away to begin with.

The end result may be the same, but the path is entirely different. Battle's plot largely deflates if Emerl isn't the insanely dangerous weapon he was believed to be.

Emerl had the ability to copy and absorb powers that he saw, that was part of him being the strongest out of all the Gizoids that they had. The fact that he was mentioned in Battle to be capable of destroying a large portion of the ARK after absorbing a large cache of weapons is a testament to that.

Right, and by the standards of the series that makes him a strong dude. Not something that can destroy an entire civilization.

[Dr. Homem]

Chronicles' version of Emerl's backstory is actually more balanced storytelling. Which seems more reasonable for an artificial being in the Sonic world: one who can destroy a whole civilization by himself, or one who gives immense power to a civilization?

Obviously the second one. It serves his purpose as the ultimate war machine, without exaggerating his strength.

[Diogenes]

And if they had started with that I'd probably be okay with it. If you write him as crazy dangerous and then jerk that away, that doesn't work.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

The end result may be the same, but the path is entirely different. Battle's plot largely deflates if Emerl isn't the insanely dangerous weapon he was believed to be.

He absorbed a large cache of weapons and destroyed a large part of the ARK. He was about to use the Final Egg Blaster on the Earth after seeing it fired. He absorbed all the Chaos Emeralds and needed to be destroyed. He shattered the Master Emerald that was going to be used against the Emeralds he had in his system.

And yet because he didn't destroy a civilization on his own power, he's not an insanely dangerous weapon? Exactly how does that make sense?

Right, and by the standards of the series that makes him a strong dude. Not something that can destroy an entire civilization.

Do you not understand what it means to indirectly do something?

[Dr. Homem]

And if they had started with that I'd probably be okay with it. If you write him as crazy dangerous and then jerk that away, that doesn't work.

A retcon is reasonable if the original writing didn't make sense.

[Komodin]

A retcon is reasonable if the original writing didn't make sense.

Of course, but what was so nonsensical about Emerl being directly responsible for the destruction of an entire civilization?

[Diogenes]

Do you not understand what it means to indirectly do something?

Do you not understand that he didn't do shit? There is a huge difference between a character being powerful enough to destroy a civilization with his own hands, and when a character and the rest of the civilization he is a part of are powerful enough that a godsquid decides to remove them from the world. It is a completely different story. It changes Emerl/the Gizoid from something powerful enough to affect the course of the world, to something that coincidentally happened to be the tipping point for something else to decide to affect the course of the world.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Do you not understand that he didn't do shit? There is a huge difference between a character being powerful enough to destroy a civilization with his own hands, and when a character and the rest of the civilization he is a part of are powerful enough that a godsquid decides to remove them from the world.

Considering the fact that I said more than once and yeah I'm fucking aware that he didn't do shit with his own damn hands.

Now answer my question and quit dodging it.

It is a completely different story. It changes Emerl/the Gizoid from something powerful enough to affect the course of the world, to something that coincidentally happened to be the tipping point for something else to decide to affect the course of the world.

Yet it doesn't change the fact that it was Emerl's creation that led to the Nocturnus being taken out of the world. It doesn't change the fact that whether or not Emerl himself destroyed their civilization it he was still a dangerous weapon because of the destruction he said to have caused. It doesn't change the fact that were he and the other Gizoids not created by the Nocturnus, they wouldn't have been put in the Twilight Cage. And it doesn't change the fact that Emerl is the most powerful out of all the Gizoids they had since he was capable of doing with the other Gizoids weren't capable of.

Edited November 9, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Diogenes]

Considering the fact that I said more than once and yeah I'm fucking aware that he didn't do shit with his own damn hands.

Then you should be able to figure out why it's a completely different matter.

Now answer my question and quit dodging it.

Do I understand what it means to indirectly cause something? Yes, that's the whole fuckin' problem! It's gone from something he did to something that happened because he existed!

Yet it doesn't change the fact that it was Emerl's creation that led to the Nocturnus being taken out of the world. It doesn't change the fact that whether or not Emerl himself destroyed their civilization it he was still a dangerous weapon because of the destruction he said to have caused. It doesn't change the fact that were he and the other Gizoids not created by the Nocturnus, they wouldn't have been put in the Twilight Cage. And it doesn't change the fact that Emerl is the most powerful out of all the Gizoids they had since he was capable of doing with the other Gizoids weren't capable of.

And the fact that this is all true doesn't change the fact that Chronicles wildly changes Emerl's backstory and removes him as the party responsible for destroying a civilization.

[Sega DogTagz]

Argus choose to steal away Nocturn because Emerl was so flippin powerful.

Considering that no other force on the planet’s history has yet to meet the same fate… that’s a pretty big complement to how powerful Emerl must have been. He may not have axed a civilization, but he did shake things up enough that a god had to get up off his ass and do something about the robot that threw off the natural balance. That’s terrifying.

If anything, Chronicles implies that he is even more dangerous than his battle back-story leads you to believe.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Then you should be able to figure out why it's a completely different matter.

I've figured out that had Emerl not been created, the Nocturnus wouldn't have been sent away. The Argus event only happens to things that are too powerful to exist in their worlds, AKA Emerl was the very thing that was too powerful that led to the Argus event to happen.

Edit: Ninja'd.

Do I understand what it means to indirectly cause something? Yes, that's the whole fuckin' problem! It's gone from something he did to something that happened because he existed!

That sounds completely out of proportion if you ask me.

And the fact that this is all true doesn't change the fact that Chronicles wildly changes Emerl's backstory and removes him as the party responsible for destroying a civilization.

All It changes is that he went from being directly responsible to indirectly responsible from destroying their civilization. He is still partly responsible, but it wasn't with his own hands. And considering that it was assumed that he destroyed it, because there was hardly any information on the 4th Civilization, that's hardly a wild change.

It's like a child getting a hold of your gun and shooting either themselves or someone else with it; no you didn't let the child have the gun, no you didn't shoot them yourselves, but you were responsible for having the gun and leaving it out for the child to get and were indirectly responsible for the deaths that child caused.

EDIT: Let's see if this can put it to rest

I have uncovered a most interesting specimen from the warehouse. I believe it to be some sort of puppet or robot made by an ancient people. At first, I didn't think anything of it, but when I was experimenting on "Chaos Emeralds," it began to move. This suggests the possibility that even the ancient civilizations could harness the power of the "Chaos Emeralds." When I was researching various papers related to the "Chaos Emeralds" and this robot, I discovered that there was a possibility that this robot was something incredible. I don't want to get ahead of myself, but this robot may be the cause of the destruction of the Fourth Great Civilization. I'm not sure I believe it just yet, though.

[link]

Entry 2 only seems to give more weight based on what he researched. But the Stone Tablet that he read doesn't fully confirm it beyond a vague assumption. All he says is that "I am no longer able to ignore the possibility that this robot did in fact destroy the Fourth Great Civilization." But that's as far as he explains it.

Edited November 9, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Diogenes]

I've figured out that had Emerl not been created, the Nocturnus wouldn't have been sent away. The Argus event only happens to things that are too powerful to exist in their worlds, AKA Emerl was the very thing that was too powerful that led to the Argus event to happen.

Okay now think about this:

If Emerl is so wildly powerful on his own as to cause the godsquid to appear, for the only time in the planet's history, to take away an entire civilization...

Why was he left on Earth?!

If he alone is enough, why was he left behind? If he is that much of a danger to the planet, he should've been the first thing to be removed!

All It changes is that he went from being directly responsible to indirectly responsible from destroying their civilization.

Which is a pretty fucking enormous difference!

And considering that it was assumed that he destroyed it, because there was hardly any information on the 4th Civilization, that's hardly a wild change.

Considering the entirety of Battle runs on the assumption that it was him, it does seriously change the context of the game.

It's like a child getting a hold of your gun and shooting either themselves or someone else with it; no you didn't let the child have the gun, no you didn't shoot them yourselves, but you were responsible for having the gun and leaving it out for the child to get and were indirectly responsible for the deaths that child caused.

Which is a wildly different situation, and no sane person would call me a cold blooded murderer in that situation, as compared to the one where I literally shoot a man in the head.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Okay now think about this:

If Emerl is so wildly powerful on his own as to cause the godsquid to appear, for the only time in the planet's history, to take away an entire civilization...

Why was he left on Earth?!

If he alone is enough, why was he left behind? If he is that much of a danger to the planet, he should've been the first thing to be removed!

Dunno. I could guess that Argus either missed him as he went for the whole civilization that made him (who could without a doubt produce even more, justifying taking mostly the Nocturnus) or Argus didn't think that anyone would know how to use him the way the Nocturnus would've intended.

Which is a pretty fucking enormous difference!

Hardly.

Considering the entirety of Battle runs on the assumption that it was him, it does seriously change the context of the game.

What context?

Which is a wildly different situation, and no sane person would call me a cold blooded murderer in that situation, as compared to the one where I literally shoot a man in the head.

No, but it's no less of a bad thing to happen and it still has someone dead at the end and someone who needs to make up for it. Some one suffered for your careless mistake, regardless of the fact that you didn't do it on purpose. No sane person would call you a cold blooded murder, but no sane person wouldn't call you a moron for leaving a gun out for it to happen and leading to indirect manslaughter.

Different paths doesn't mean you can't have the same end result, which you admitted yourself at the top of this page.

Edited November 9, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Sega DogTagz]

Edit: Ninja'd.

I'm currently pledging for Shinobi Clan.

Why was he left on Earth?!

Because its a really bad idea to bring a Robot that grows in power in accordance to his environment into a pocket dimension full of races that were deemed too powerful to co-exist in their native lands.

Emerl is pretty harmless on his lonesome. Its his ability to learn which makes him dangerous. Take away his "links" and he reverts back to a run of the mill punch-bag.

Edited November 9, 2012 by The Arcane Arceus

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Because its a really bad idea to bring a Robot that grows in power in accordance to his environment into a pocket dimension full of races that were deemed too powerful to co-exist in their native lands.

Emerl is pretty harmless on his lonesome. Its his ability to learn which makes him dangerous. Take away his "links" and he reverts back to a tun of the mill punch-bag.

Well, that's a stronger explanation than mine. Either way, not many people would know how to use him the way the Nocturnus would have intended.