Sonic-related pet peeves?

[Diogenes]

But Shadow does use his Chaos powers. That's his gimmick. And there isn't really anything in Shadow's personality, s'far as I can see, that would lead to him not using them if he wanted to stomp Sonic's ass. The only reason he doesn't is because they need to contrive a way for Sonic to be able to win.

[Kuzu]

And that's what we happen to call plot armor.

Seems legit to me...

Huh, theoretically speaking, Shadow should be able to this then:

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

The way I see it, Sonic would only use Chaos Control if the stakes were way too high for him not to use it. Case in point: SA2 and Sonic 06. SA2 he would have flat out died in that capsule Eggman baited him in if he didn't have a Deus Ex Machina save him at the last second before it exploded, and again during the fight with Shadow while racing to the Eclipse Cannon.

In Sonic 06, he had to use it in order to set an event to his favor (lol) to prevent something bad happening...

So in a hypothetical event where Sonic and Shadow start duking it out and Shadow really puts Sonic in a corner, I think it's safe to say hello to Sonic using your "Chaos...CONTROL!" in order to put things on an even level. But that seems to be a pretty high threshold.

Huh, theoretically speaking, Shadow should be able to this then:

Still pales in comparison to the Flash. Lex/Brainiac had Supes on the ropes with his nanotechnology while Flash was able to vibrate his molecules and make them explode.

...and given that, I don't think Supes would want to fight the flash. That and there's this...

Edited November 18, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[SenEDDtor Missile]

Honestly, they might want to consider making Shadow become increasingly exhausted with each consecutive use of his Chaos Powers to balance things out.

[Blue Blood]

When it comes down to it, Shadow is basically the a bad fan-character. He's everything the main character is, except he's stronger and has a dark past.

How many fan characters are lambasted for being just that?

[Kuzu]

But Shadow does use his Chaos powers. That's his gimmick. And there isn't really anything in Shadow's personality, s'far as I can see, that would lead to him not using them if he wanted to stomp Sonic's ass. The only reason he doesn't is because they need to contrive a way for Sonic to be able to win.

The fact that he respects him, and likes the competition, if Shadow wanted Sonic dead, he would've done it already.

When it comes down to it, Shadow is basically the a bad fan-character. He's everything the main character is, except he's stronger and has a dark past.

This is like half the cast already sooooooo....

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

When it comes down to it, Shadow is basically the a bad fan-character. He's everything the main character is, except he's stronger and has a dark past.

How many fan characters are lambasted for being just that?

Too many simply because they like to play follow the leader with their characters in going by Shadow's example.

Not gonna lie when I think that they've done too much for Shadow where only Sonic's plot armor is able to beat him, but it's not like the whole concept was bad from the get-go. Especially when characters like Metal Sonic go even further than Shadow in the "bad fan-character" department as of now.

Edited November 18, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Kuzu]

I'll concede that Sonic Team have given Shadow far too much power back in the 2005/2006 Era, but I don't really think that in its self is bad, moreso how those powers have been presented.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Well, we can always give Sonic more powers or abilities to balance them out. Although, that depends on what you'd be confortable giving him beyond his speed based abilities.

That, or we can just not give Shadow anymore abilities.

Edited November 18, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Blue Blood]

This is like half the cast already sooooooo....

Is it really though? Every character is shown to have their faults amongst their strengths and the bring something different to the table. Shadow can literally do anything. And ability wise, he's got absolutely nothing going against him. Take someone like Tails, Amy, Cream, Big, Rouge... absolutely anyone at all and they have their pros and cons. Shadow's only con is that you may not like him.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Shadow can literally do anything.

Until he can copy litterally EVERYONE'S powers like Metal Sonic, no he cannot.

In fact, I'd wager that Silver's far more broken than Shadow. Telekinesis to cheat at flight, speed, and strength, and on top of that he can use Chaos Control? Get the fuck out of here.

Edited November 18, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Kuzu]

Is it really though? Every character is shown to have their faults amongst their strengths and the bring something different to the table. Shadow can literally do anything. And ability wise, he's got absolutely nothing going against him. Take someone like Tails, Amy, Cream, Big, Rouge... absolutely anyone at all and they have their pros and cons. Shadow's only con is that you may not like him.

Knuckles is stronger Sonic, can glide, and climb walls, and there isn't really any weakness he's had. Tails is smarter than Sonic, tends to keep up with his speed, and can fly. and Cream has Cheese.

The only characters you can make a convincing argument for are Amy & Rouge, and that's mostly because they never really had any powers to begin with.

I'm having a hard time seeing how Shadow is the only "broken" character here.

Edited November 18, 2012 by Popo

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Knuckles is stronger Sonic, can glide, and climb walls, and there isn't really any weakness he's had.

Gulible, not exactly the best at using his head beyond punching things, hot-tempered and easily manipulated.

Tails is smarter than Sonic, tends to keep up with his speed, and can fly.

Can't exactly break the sound barrier, isn't exactly as strong as Sonic, and hypothetically speaking, if you were to injure his tails and he has no gadgets on him then there's way he can fight like he usually does since that's mainly the source of his abilities.

and Cream has Cheese.

Okay, now that's just a gamebreaker.

Really, if we want to talk about weaknesses for Shadow, I've been saying many times before that we could make him a glass cannon. Yes, he's immortal and can't be killed easily, but that doesn't mean he can't be knocked out or subdued to the point that he can't do anything. And there's always the idea of making Shadow exhaust himself when he uses his Chaos Powers too much.

Even better, why not make something resistant to his Chaos powers? Eggman beat Super Sonic which, prior to Unleashed, was impossible at that point, it shouldn't be hard to make weaknesses for a character like Shadow.

Edited November 18, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Spin Attaxx]

And Silver has a Super form which is no different from normal Silver (though that and his ability to use Chaos Control may be non canon, due to the ending of the game they appeared in and their lack of appearences in recent years).

[Blue Blood]

Until he can copy litterally EVERYONE'S powers like Metal Sonic, no he cannot.

In fact, I'd wager that Silver's far more broken than Shadow. Telekinesis to cheat at flight, speed, and strength, and on top of that he can use Chaos Control? Get the fuck out of here.

Knuckles is stronger Sonic, can glide, and climb walls, and there isn't really any weakness he's had. Tails is smarter than Sonic, tends to keep up with his speed, and can fly. and Cream has Cheese.

The only characters you can make a convincing argument for are Amy & Rouge, and that's mostly because they never really had any powers to begin with.

I'm having a hard time seeing how Shadow is the only "broken" character here.

Silver's incredibly broken too. Though as a saving grace, he's constantly portrayed as naive and immature, as well as being physically slower than Sonic and Shadow. Note that I'm not talking just gameplay here. I'm talking everything. Knuckles has downfalls in his personality, Tails is very young and not as interested in being the hero as Sonic is, Cream's a pretty mild-mannered child (with a game-breaking ability). Look at the characters from every angle- they have their ups and downs. And when you do factor in gameplay as well, the big thing is that Sonic and has use of the homing attack.

Shadow is as fast as Sonic, physically stronger than Sonic (or it would at least appear that way), has got the typical tough-guy attitude, is black, has all these abilities nobody else has, uses hover-shoes, has a deep emotional story. Shadow is an over powered, poorly designed character in every possible way. His sole purpose is just to be the series' badass.

Edited November 18, 2012 by Blue Blood

[Spin Attaxx]

Gulible, not exactly the best at using his head beyond punching things, hot-tempered and easily manipulated.

Aren't those kinda the same thing?

[Kuzu]

Gulible, not exactly the best at using his head beyond punching things, hot-tempered and easily manipulated.

That's more of a personality flaw than a physical one. I can easily say that Shadow tends to be easily led on because of how single minded he is when he's set on a goal.

Can't exactly break the sound barrier

Neither can Shadow from what we've seen.

,

isn't exactly as strong as Sonic

Tails is no more powerful than Sonic in all of the classic games, and manged to take down the Egg Walker. If there's a physical diference between Sonic & Tails, it sure as hell isn't noticeable.

and hypothetically speaking, if you were to injure his tails and he has no gadgets on him then there's way he can fight like he usually does since that's mainly the source of his abilities.

You can easily say that about Shadow when you take away his speed and chaos powers.

Really, if we want to talk about weaknesses for Shadow, I've been saying many times before that we could make him a glass cannon. Yes, he's immortal and can't be killed easily, but that doesn't mean he can't be knocked out or subdued to the point that he can't do anything

Considering he(and a lot of other characters) survive atmospheric reentry with little more than amnesia, it's pretty hard to swallow a respectably strong punch knocking Shadow out.

.

And there's always the idea of making Shadow exhaust himself when he uses his Chaos Powers too much.

This I don't mind.

Even better, why not make something resistant to his Chaos powers? Eggman beat Super Sonic which, prior to Unleashed, was impossible at that point, it shouldn't be hard to make weaknesses for a character like Shadow.

I think they just need to tone down how much power he has.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Silver's incredibly broken too. Though as a saving grace, he's constantly portrayed as naive and immature, as well as being physically slower than Sonic and Shadow.

Being physically slower is absolutely no excuse when he doesn't even need to run or touch the ground to achieve Mach 1. Just lift himself with his mind and throw himself, and it's GG.

And naive and immature aren't exactly a saving grace when all he needs to do is grab you if you're so much as near him and throw you like a ragdoll with little hope of attacking. Shadow's only equivalent is his Chaos Blast, and that requires a lot of energy (that he should be exhausted afterwards, mind you) before he can use it; beyond that, you can just as easily walk up close to punch Shadow than you ever could with Silver. If anything, that naivety and immaturity would probably be even worse if he ends up fighting the wrong person since he could easily kill them with his mind.

Aren't those kinda the same thing?

Kinda sorta, but who's keeping track?

Considering he(and a lot of other characters) survive atmospheric reentry with little more than amnesia, it's pretty hard to swallow a respectably strong punch knocking Shadow out.

Running short on time to tackle everything else, but atmospheric reentry is not the same as a punch. We had someone skydive from over 100,000 feet in the air and broke the sound barrier on his way down, yet I'm pretty sure than if you were to punch him really hard then he would go down.

Edited November 18, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Komodin]

So... what I'm getting from this latest discussion is that the power balance in this series is all kinds of screwed up. Would I be correct in making this assumption?

[Spin Attaxx]

It would appear so.

[Blue Blood]

Being physically slower is absolutely no excuse when he doesn't even need to run or touch the ground to achieve Mach 1. Just lift himself with his mind and throw himself, and it's GG.

And naive and immature aren't exactly a saving grace when all he needs to do is grab you if you're so much as near him and throw you like a ragdoll with little hope of attacking. Shadow's only equivalent is his Chaos Blast, and that requires a lot of energy (that he should be exhausted afterwards, mind you) before he can use it; beyond that, you can just as easily walk up close to punch Shadow than you ever could with Silver. If anything, that naivety and immaturity would probably be even worse if he ends up fighting the wrong person since he could easily kill them with his mind.

Absolutely- Silver sucks too. I'd happily see him exiled from the series really. At least he has some sort of short fall though.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

Being physically slower is absolutely no excuse when he doesn't even need to run or touch the ground to achieve Mach 1. Just lift himself with his mind and throw himself, and it's GG.

And naive and immature aren't exactly a saving grace when all he needs to do is grab you if you're so much as near him and throw you like a ragdoll with little hope of attacking. Shadow's only equivalent is his Chaos Blast, and that requires a lot of energy (that he should be exhausted afterwards, mind you) before he can use it; beyond that, you can just as easily walk up close to punch Shadow than you ever could with Silver. If anything, that naivety and immaturity would probably be even worse if he ends up fighting the wrong person since he could easily kill them with his mind.

Gameplay-wise, you could try to make Silver only able to use one method of attack at a time. Say for example he wants to shield himself from an attack; now he can't retaliate at all without dropping his shield. If he wants to lift things with telekinesis, he can't do anything else and he'll be wide open. If he wants to go at high speeds, make it so that he will take damage from being hit at high speeds, rather than being able to barrel through enemies like Sonic's Boost.

Of course, on the other hand you could just limit his abilities down to mentally lifting stuff (himself included) and leave it at that or something.

[Kuzu]

Shadow is as fast as Sonic

This is debatable considering Sonic is generally shown as the faster of the two. Shadow at most just rivals his speed, not necessarily equal.

physically stronger than Sonic (or it would at least appear that way)

Unconfirmed, and even then Sonic consistently takes down robots half his size anyway..

has got the typical tough-guy attitude,

So did Knuckles before they shat on his personality.

is black

:/

has all these abilities nobody else has

Nobody has Fire abilities, nobody is as smart as Eggman, nobody has Psychokinesis, nobody is as strong as Knuckles. I'd imagine Shadow having unique abilities would set him apart from everyone else rather than ripping off the main character's moveset alone.

uses hover-shoes

Which is a big deal because...?

has a deep emotional story.

So did Chip, Shahra, and Merlina.

Shadow is an over powered, poorly designed character in every possible way. His sole purpose is just to be the series' badass.

Ok, I'm not going to disagree that Shadow was handled like a shitty fan character in the past, but are you seriously judging him on those things alone? The reason Shadow seems like such a "poorly designed character" is because he's written terribly, which is the case with basically every character at the moment. No character has been immune to the shitty writing of this series, so I fail to see how Shadow is the only one at fault here.

Edited November 18, 2012 by Popo

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Absolutely- Silver sucks too. I'd happily see him exiled from the series really.

No.

[Kuzu]

So... what I'm getting from this latest discussion is that the power balance in this series is all kinds of screwed up. Would I be correct in making this assumption?

Yeah, but when have the characters ever been balanced? their power fluctuates from game to game.