Sonic-related pet peeves?

[WarioBone]

Considering that everyone and their mother has outran or outflew Sonic by now, I think the whole "Fastest Thing Alive" thing is something sonic keeps telling himself so he doesn't feel inferior to his superpowered friends. q:

Hell, in Sonic Generations, Silver stays ahead of him for the entire boss fight.

Well, according to the scaled MPH that Sonic is traveling in Generations, he's not actually going full speed at any point during the game.

...I think.

[Celestia]

Hell, in Sonic Generations, Silver stays ahead of him for the entire boss fight.

Well he probably wasn't moving as fast he possibly could, otherwise he wouldn't be able to fight Silver. I mean, if Sonic moved at full speed in-game, you'd get through stages within seconds. (Think KAKIPI's speedruns, but on crack. XP)

[SenEDDtor Missile]

Hell, in Sonic Generations, Silver stays ahead of him for the entire boss fight.

Everyone would probably be dead from the sheer force of his blows as he runs past them if he ever decides to actually be serious and move at his highest speed. I mean come on! Awesomest made a post about how getting punched by Sonic at around Mach 1 is the equivalent of .75 million pounds of force...or something along that line.

Edited November 18, 2012 by Malpercio

[Xenos]

Considering that everyone and their mother has outran or outflew Sonic by now, I think the whole "Fastest Thing Alive" thing is something sonic keeps telling himself so he doesn't feel inferior to his superpowered friends. q:

Hell, in Sonic Generations, Silver stays ahead of him for the entire boss fight.

...Uh, that's obviously gameplay and story segregation?

Why the fuck would you want to be faster than the boss and defeat the entire point of chasing him down and homing attacking the shit out of him?

And really, Sonic is pretty much the fastest regardless.

The problem is Shadow. He needs more weaknesses, his Chaos Powers need to be revamped and set in stone, he needs a lot of things redone about him. Silver could be another case but that's a whole other story.

[Multikaris]

Sonic's Schoolhouse's character designs. Theyarent Sonic-like at all. Also, those freaky animations.

[Kuzu]

I didn't disregard any of that. I was talking about Shadow, nobody else. And when you prompted it, I happily agreed Silver is over-powered. Metal Sonic too. Listing "being black" and "having hovershoes" isn't being petty so much as it's trying to explain the details of his character that throw him into the realms of too cliché cool, even for the Sonic series. I don't know how on Earth you're not getting this, or why you're getting so wound up.

Shadow has absolutely nothing going against him. At the very least, everyone else some minor shortfall. Shadow's got nothing. Blaze's fire abilities come at the cost of her fear of height and stark independence. Silver's ridiculously overly-powerful telekinesis is at least balanced out by his personality. Sonic himself is lacking in shortfalls and is constantly shown to do pretty much anything, though it's somewhat more forgiveable because he's the lead character (he's not totally perfect, mind). And there's no defending Metal Sonic's current copy-cat status. But I wasn't talking about him. I was talking about Shadow- the flawless character.

This guy gets it. You don't have to agree with anything I'm saying, but you're not really listening when I say 'Shadow's too much when you look at everything'.

Also, I'm finished. Pet-peeve's topic is for talking about things that bother you. Shadow is one of things in my case. So I've explained it and now I'm done. Enjoy the rest of your topic without two raging fans shooting the odds at each other, guys!

Look, I understand why Shadow can be considered a terribly written character, but the way you're presenting it really does come off as petty and shallow.

[Diogenes]

So, hey, one of my pet peeves is how wishy-washy Sonic Team is with their character statistics.

I dunno, I wouldn't want them to go too far in the other direction and put numbers to everything. Consistent but somewhat vague gives you enough wiggle room to make things interesting.

Shadow's Chaos Powers are the most obvious example, but another one is a fairly large point: Is Metal Sonic actually faster than the real one? I know it's been said that he is, but also there's the constant "Sawnik is the fastest evar". Then again, he's referred to occasionally as "The Fastest Thing ALIVE", so that wouldn't include Metal Sonic.

I prefer the "fastest thing alive" interpretation. Sonic doesn't need to literally be the fastest thing that ever was; the dude's not going to outrun light or anything. I'm perfectly fine having the guy made specifically to combat him pushing his primary skill to its limit, forcing him to either break that limit or find another way to win.

And I also think that Metal's copy ability should go eat a bag of dicks, so he only really has that speed and a few attacks, unlike Shadow's host of extra abilities.

[Endy]

Because you think he gets in the way of your fanon OTP and must die?

Not only that, Silver actually managed to kill the franchise by completely bringing down 06, killed Big, be a popular character and get toys, and be playable in favour of EVERY OTHER CHARACTER IN THE FRANCHISE EVER,

[188Eternal]

Isn't SA2 coming to the PC kinda of... almost right now?

I checked Wikipedia just now after reading your post, and I could barely believe my eyes. I thought I was dreaming and had to pinch myself. 0_o

After 11 whole years, they finally decide to port it?! 11 whole years? Holy shit!

Oh man. This better not be a hoax. It better not be a gag. Once it's really going to be out, if it truly will be, I'm gonna hunt it down and add it to my pile of treasure. Long overdue.

[Anti Alias]

about Silver, is not the character who sucks, it's his writing what sucks.

he has tons of potential in gameplay, but his writing sucked badly in Sonic '06 and made the character utterly annnoying, it's less the character's fault, and more his writers fault.

Edited November 19, 2012 by Anti Alias

[Anti Alias]

And that's what we happen to call plot armor.

Seems legit to me...

thats fucking ridiculous.

how the fuck Flash is suposed to go around the globe and subvert FUCKING ESCAPE VELOCITY????

if he is faster than gravity, he would be flying to space.

if he is slower than gravity, there is no fucking way he can run around the world in a few seconds.

there is glue in his feets or some shit like that?

that's pure bullshit, even for fiction.

[Komodin]

thats fucking ridiculous.

how the fuck Flash is suposed to go around the globe and subvert FUCKING ESCAPE VELOCITY????

if he is faster than gravity, he would be flying to space.

if he is slower than gravity, there is no fucking way he can run around the world in a few seconds.

there is glue in his feets or some shit like that?

that's pure bullshit, even for fiction.

He's the Flash; defying the laws of physics is kinda his thing.

[Frogging101]

I checked Wikipedia just now after reading your post, and I could barely believe my eyes. I thought I was dreaming and had to pinch myself. 0_o

After 11 whole years, they finally decide to port it?! 11 whole years? Holy shit!

Oh man. This better not be a hoax. It better not be a gag. Once it's really going to be out, if it truly will be, I'm gonna hunt it down and add it to my pile of treasure. Long overdue.

It's not a hoax. It was on the front page of TSS a couple days ago: http://www.sonicstadium.org/2012/11/sonic-adventure-2-coming-to-pc-on-monday/. I'll certainly be buying it on Steam at some point.

Not only that, Silver actually managed to kill the franchise by completely bringing down 06, killed Big, be a popular character and get toys, and be playable in favour of EVERY OTHER CHARACTER IN THE FRANCHISE EVER,

What you did there. I see it.

[Anti Alias]

He's the Flash; defying the laws of physics is kinda his thing.

but it's kind of ridiculous isn't it? I mean.

Sonic can do a lightspeed dash with a simple press of a Y.

that means Sonic theorically could do every fucking level in the game 300.000 times, destroy all eggman robots, collect all rings in the world, get the chaos emeralds, eat every single chilli dog he could want, throw Eggman from Everest.

and all of this in within 0,000001 seconds.

but then we would have no fucking game if he did.

If Flash can do ridiculous shit at lightspeed, and can solve every single situation at 0,000001 seconds why the heck there is even a plot to begin with?

it's called plot induced stupidy and it's awful if you ask me.

[Komodin]

If Flash can do ridiculous shit at lightspeed, and can solve every single situation at 0,000001 seconds why the heck there is even a plot to begin with?

Because the one time he actually went that stupid-fast (to stop the Brainiac/Lex Luthor God-Cyborg from taking over the world unopposed), he nearly got pulled into the Speed Force permanently.

[Anti Alias]

Because the one time he actually went that stupid-fast.

[Komodin]

in the comics? no, shit is just ridiculous there.

he does that shit in regular basis, and sometimes can't even defeat a simple enemy.

shit makes no sense at all.

It's a comic books about a (succession of) guy(s) who can run at the speed of light. Normal common sense, as we here in reality know it, is clearly not at play here. At any rate, this discussion is off topic, so unless you wish to start a topic thread about silly plot events in comic books, let us move on from this silly digression.

So, fanfics about Eggman being cheaply killed for the sake of it... bleh.

[Dr. Crusher]

So, fanfics about Eggman being cheaply killed for the sake of it... bleh.

Ah yes. That.

Too many fucking times I've seen that.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I didn't disregard any of that. I was talking about Shadow, nobody else. And when you prompted it, I happily agreed Silver is over-powered. Metal Sonic too. Listing "being black" and "having hovershoes" isn't being petty so much as it's trying to explain the details of his character that throw him into the realms of too cliché cool, even for the Sonic series. I don't know how on Earth you're not getting this, or why you're getting so wound up.

Regardless of whether or not you're going to respond to me, you need to pay attention to what you're saying, because at the time of my response you listed all these factors as the reason why Shadow was overpowered and poorly designed, not about being a cliche. When you say things like "abilities no one else has", not only is that false but you're very much disregarding other character who either do infact have such abilities or have abilities that no other characters, and additionally you're including those other characters into the argument (otherwise, what merit is there to claim no one has those powers?). That's what I was getting wound up by.

And even then stuff like the characterization aspects are more poorly executed than poorly designed. "Being black" for Shadow is no more cliche than "being pink" is for Amy, these colors are pretty much chosen based on what archetype the character is suppose to represent. Having all the traits he has individually or mixed all together is no less of a bad thing in and of itself, as again, that has to do with execution. And considering how many cliches this series already has even without him, one could see this as grasping for straws picking Shadow out in regards to this.

Shadow has absolutely nothing going against him. At the very least, everyone else some minor shortfall. Shadow's got nothing. Blaze's fire abilities come at the cost of her fear of height and stark independence. Silver's ridiculously overly-powerful telekinesis is at least balanced out by his personality. Sonic himself is lacking in shortfalls and is constantly shown to do pretty much anything, though it's somewhat more forgiveable because he's the lead character (he's not totally perfect, mind). And there's no defending Metal Sonic's current copy-cat status. But I wasn't talking about him. I was talking about Shadow- the flawless character.

If you're going to make it a point to scrape the bottom of the barrel for flaws that other characters have at the very least, you're only shooting yourself in the foot as Metal and Shadow could be considered to have flaws themselves. Metal's flaw is pride and arrogance, such that ends up biting him in the ass in games like Heroes.

But since you weren't talking about him, let's move on to Shadow the "flawless" character and see just how "flawless" he is. For one, it could be said Shadow's flaws are introversion and a distrust for many except his closest friends which could very well put him into conflict that he could avoid in other ways or lack of understanding other people around him. The strength of that comes from him not being so easily manipulated, but the weakness in that comes from how he wouldn't likely have a lot of help in cases where he might need it if not likely make it worse. And such attitude would only add to that lone wolf behavior of his that could put him in a situation where that introversion could come and bite him in the ass.

This guy gets it. You don't have to agree with anything I'm saying, but you're not really listening when I say 'Shadow's too much when you look at everything'.

Had you used those words in the first place when I called you out for petty bashing I would have actually been in agreement with you to a certain extent. Such wasn't initially the case, and I still maintain that you are being somewhat petty in regards to the character.

EDIT: I want to take this moment to address something I didn't have much time to mention:

Well, when you're the only recurring character that has it, that's... kind of a problem...

I originally said give other characters a back story, but something just occurred to me that I can't believe I overlooked.

Eggman and Knuckles are equally recurring characters that have backstories to them: Eggman with his Grandfather being the greatest mind at the time that he aspired to be himself, and Knuckles' ancestry of his tribe that got wiped out by Chaos thousands of years ago. And since we're at it, Generations has established Classic Sonic as a much younger Sonic, so one could easily say that Sonic also has a backstory that fans have been aware off since day 1.

Edited November 19, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Dr. Crusher]

Shadow's flaws are introversion

Gee, thanks for helping with the pain. Some of us like being that way.

Edited November 19, 2012 by Dr. Crusher

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Gee, thanks for helping with the pain. Some of us like being that way.

Yeah, you're talking to one of them.

[Mr. Taxi]

Introversion is not a flaw; it's a trait. Heck, not even being stubborn as Knuckles is a flaw. Flaws are perceptions of a trait within a situation, not pieces of one's character. So Sonic's sockiness isn't a flaw, but when such cockiness leads him not to do what he should have done, then it's a flaw.

Which is why the problem in Shadow's character is not the character itself, but how people (don't) react to it. This has been applied to Sonic, too. If Shadow's introversion leads him to - for example - not being able to rely on others and then he gets screwed because of that, then it's seen as a flaw. I don't know, maybe this has happened in the series or something. I'm just saying.

Edited November 19, 2012 by Palas

[Dr. Crusher]

Yeah, you're talking to one of them.

...And? I'm sorry to sound a bit grumpy about it, but the whole "introversion = flaw" is something that strikes a nerve with me. I deal with that mindset enough as it is in real life, the last thing I need is for it to be here.

Edited November 19, 2012 by Dr. Crusher

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Introversion is not a flaw; it's a trait. Heck, not even being stubborn as Knuckles is a flaw. Flaws are perceptions of a trait within a situation, not pieces of one's character. So Sonic's sockiness isn't a flaw, but when such cockiness leads him not to do what he should have done, then it's a flaw.

Which is why the problem in Shadow's character is not the character itself, but how people (don't) react to it. This has been applied to Sonic, too. If Shadow's introversion leads him to - for example - not being able to rely on others and then he gets screwed because of that, then it's seen as a flaw. I don't know, maybe this has happened in the series or something. I'm just saying.

A character flaw is a limitation to a character that hinders them to a degree. Meaning that Knuckles stubbornness is very much a flaw, Shadow's introversion is a flaw, Sonic's cockiness is a flaw. It's something that prevents the character from being too perfect or "flawless" as was mentioned in Shadow's case, and allows us to see a character differently from others.

That's not being strict in that a flaw that limits a character can bring them down. Generally speaking, flaws that hinder often become a problem when a situation presents itself where that flaw stands in opposition: Knuckles stubbornness, for example, would prevent him from coming to agreements with other characters and cause tension such as the case when he gets into fights with Sonic or in minor scenarios like when he takes control of the ship in SA2 in order to find the Emerald Pieces that were knocked out; Sonic's cockiness is what sets him up for villains to take advantage of his ego and make him pay the consequences for fooling around, as would be the case for the intro in Unleashed; Shadow's introversion and distrust towards others make it hard for people to get close to him to help out when he may need it, such as when he seeks to go lone wolf in places like Sonic 06 to take on Mephiles by himself while others went back to their present time period leaving him left alone in a ruined future (prior to Omega being reactivated).

But such flaws can be put to good use. Sonic's cockiness is what makes him on top of his game and could be used to throw enemies off by his taunting superiority over them, Knuckles stubbornness could allow him to not give up where everyone else doesn't see much of a point to continue until they see the light at the end (metaphorically speaking), Shadow's introversion and distrust makes it harder to manipulate him into doing something that might prove detrimental to more than just himself. And in these cases, the flaws can become strengths. Where Sonic was cocky, he becomes confident; where Knuckles is stubborn, he becomes determined; where Shadow is introverted and distrustful, he becomes self-aware and skeptical.

Think I made my point?

...And? I'm sorry to sound a bit grumpy about it, but the whole "introversion = flaw" is something that strikes a nerve with me. I deal with that mindset enough as it is in real life, the last thing I need is for it to be here.

At first, I thought you were being playful, but now I'm gonna be be blunt: I think you need to chill out when 1) I wasn't even pointing it at you and 2) I'm an introvert myself.

You want to be picky about this whole thing, I gave it a strength just as much as I did a weakness, and while I don't want to be an asshole over this the last thing I need is to pick a fight with someone getting grumpy at me for deconstructing a character trait because of how they feel about it in real life.

Just because something is a flaw doesn't mean it's a bad thing, at least regarding people, so it would help the both of us if you not make this personal.

Edited November 19, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Mr. Taxi]

A character flaw is a limitation to a character that hinders them to a degree. Meaning that Knuckles stubbornness is very much a flaw, Shadow's introversion is a flaw, Sonic's cockiness is a flaw. It's something that prevents the character from being too perfect or "flawless" as was mentioned in Shadow's case, and allows us to see a character differently from others.

That's not being strict in that a flaw that limits a character can bring them down. Generally speaking, flaws that hinder often become a problem when a situation presents itself where that flaw stands in opposition: Knuckles stubbornness, for example, would prevent him from coming to agreements with other characters and cause tension such as the case when he gets into fights with Sonic or in minor scenarios like when he takes control of the ship in SA2 in order to find the Emerald Pieces that were knocked out; Sonic's cockiness is what sets him up for villains to take advantage of his ego and make him pay the consequences for fooling around, as would be the case for the intro in Unleashed; Shadow's introversion and distrust towards others make it hard for people to get close to him to help out when he may need it, such as when he seeks to go lone wolf in places like Sonic 06 to take on Mephiles by himself while others went back to their present time period leaving him left alone in a ruined future (prior to Omega being reactivated).

But such flaws can be put to good use. Sonic's cockiness is what makes him on top of his game and could be used to throw enemies off by his taunting superiority over them, Knuckles stubbornness could allow him to not give up where everyone else doesn't see much of a point to continue until they see the light at the end (metaphorically speaking), Shadow's introversion and distrust makes it harder to manipulate him into doing something that might prove detrimental to more than just himself. And in these cases, the flaws can become strengths. Where Sonic was cocky, he becomes confident; where Knuckles is stubborn, he becomes determined; where Shadow is introverted and distrustful, he becomes self-aware and skeptical.

Think I made my point?

Yes, that's a good explanation. I think our disagreement was in semantics, then. I mean, what starts both determination and stubborness, confidence and cockiness, skepticism and distrust are the same principles. But that's what I'm also saying, you know? The situation redeems or condemns.