The Knuckles Topic - Is monkey a Knuckles-butt?

[Diogenes]

Because its contrived and overly complicated for something so simple.

What about it is contrived and overly complicated?

[Indigo Rush]

What was so important about it? It got shattered and taken, and was just a liability overall. How in what way is it important that the series can't seem to do without it like you seem to be suggesting.

The problem is that Knuckles left it open to attack. THAT'S the making of a dumb guardian.

Because its contrived and overly complicated for something so simple.

Master Emerald shattered. It's across the world. Knuckles spends his time finding it. Do you need me to slow down?

No, Knuckles` sense of duty and commitment is character trait of his, the Master Emerald is just an object that he projects this character onto, and he can easily project it on something else. Getting rid of the Master Emerald isn't taking a character trait from Knuckles, you're just giving it better use for something actually worth protecting in the series.

It's not just about Knuckles' character goals and motivation, but completely retconning the Master Emerald implies that it was never there. If you just obliterate it and banish it so there's nothing left, not even a shard, then sure, Knuckles could project his guarding traits to something else. Like that petunia. Gotta save those flowers from evil deterioration, yeah. Removing the Master Emerald takes away one of the more prominent mythos in the series' history, whether or not it's as prominently featured.

Like, dude, what happened? You were on board with this and now you're one of the more vocal haters. I don't even.

[Kuzu]

What about it is contrived and overly complicated?

So Eggman shatters the Master Emerald to the point where the pieces are uncountable sending Knuckles on a wild goose chase, despite the fact that the same thing happened before(Twice even) and Knuckles was able to find them all in the span of one game.

[Indigo Rush]

So Eggman shatters the Master Emerald to the point where the pieces are uncountable sending Knuckles on a wild goose chase, despite the fact that the same thing happened before(Twice even) and Knuckles was able to find them all in the span of one game.

Who says it has to be Eggman? Who's to say Knuckles doesn't do it for a greater good?

And if that's too complicated for you, then I don't know what to say to that.

[Sami]

I'm not really in the mood to right a wall of text in the mood right now, so I suppose I'll just say that I think Dio's idea is supah coolio. I'll worry about dissecting massive arguments later.

[Kuzu]

The problem is that Knuckles left it open to attack. THAT'S the making of a dumb guardian.

Hence why I said get rid of the thing, and just use the Chaos Emeralds; if Knuckles leaves the M.E. people go "lol Knucklez iz stupid" if he stays, we literally have to come up with more and more contrived reasons just so he can make an appearance. Its more trouble than its worth.

Master Emerald shattered. It's across the world. Knuckles spends his time finding it. Do you need me to slow down?

So Eggman shatters the Master Emerald to the point where the pieces are uncountable sending Knuckles on a wild goose chase, despite the fact that the same thing happened before(Twice even) and Knuckles was able to find them all in the span of one game.

It's not just about Knuckles' character goals and motivation, but completely retconning the Master Emerald implies that it was never there. If you just obliterate it and banish it so there's nothing left, not even a shard, then sure, Knuckles could project his guarding traits to something else. Like that petunia. Gotta save those flowers from evil deterioration, yeah. Removing the Master Emerald takes away one of the more prominent mythos in the series' history, whether or not it's as prominently featured.

Or maybe those wonderful gems that are the central plot devices of literally every game. What were those things called again? Oh yeah, the CHAOS EMERALDS. You know those things that have had more importance, and seem much more worth guarding? Yeah, too bad nobody else seems to.

Like, dude, what happened? You were on board with this and now you're one of the more vocal haters. I don't even.

Its amazing what you can come up with when you sit down, and think about something for more than 10 seconds.

[Chooch]

Aaaaand now we're back to where we started. So much for that amazing plan that called for a topic title change.

It's just an endless cycle that goes nowhere. A Catch 22.

No one seems to ever agree on what they want Sonic Team to do with this character, which is why he hardly appears at all these days in anything outside of spin-offs. The Master Emerald has been entirely cast aside as a plot device for more than a decade now and Knuckles with it. Part of me wonders if he'll have a major role in a Sonic game ever again.

Maybe he'll just fade into obscurity.

Or he'll become a spin-off only character, which he basically is these days.

Edited June 3, 2012 by Chooch

[Kuzu]

Who says it has to be Eggman? Who's to say Knuckles doesn't do it for a greater good?

Now tell me, did this take more than one game to accomplish?

Or he'll become a spin-off only character, which he basically is these days.

I'd take this than trying to come up with more plot devices.

[#EndyGate]

Or, the game opens up with the Master Emerald being stolen, and for the remainder of the game, it stays intact.

Near the climax, Knuckles is forced into a situation where breaking the Master Emerald is the only way to save the day, and with his brute strength, he sends small shards flying across the globe. Rather than the shards be the sole plotpoint of one game, it becomes the setting for a new status quo. Because you end the game this way, it becomes less of a "letdown" and more of a turning point. Like, crap, what happens next?! Will the pieces ever be brought together? Que in explanation from Knuckles that it'd take years to track down everything, and he knew what he was getting into by doing this.

I mean, it would be much more interesting to have Knuckles make this decision in an attempt to protect the Emerald by breaking it, rather than have mean old Dr Robotnik do the deed.

It's an interesting plot development, and I still don't see why everyone isn't on board. I mean, if paper-thin plot points ala Colors and Generations are your thing, then, well... boo. I want some tension in the plot. We haven't had a cohesive episodic arc since Shadow. And man, was that unsatisfying.

Or they could completely troll the fans, like say:

The Master Emerald isn't actually retrieved until just before the final final boss confrontaion, where Knuckles uses the power of the gem to give Super Sonic the extra power necessary to destroy Eggman's latest final final boss mech. So after the final final boss battle, Sonic returns to the surface and he, Tails, Knuckles, and whoever else is present have a quick exchange of remarks about their adventure and end off laughing together as the screen goes black...

...Then the screen opens back up as a piece of Eggman's machine comes crashing down and shatters the Master Emerald, with the impact sending pieces over vast distances across the planet. Everyone looks at Knuckles' gloves where the Master Emerald once was with incredibly shocked faces.

Queue Credits

[Indigo Rush]

Now tell me, did this take more than one game to accomplish?

No.

But you're not paying attention here. We said it'd be different from that time. It wouldn't be like, 20 shards in a 100 mile radius, but nearly 50 or 60 across the GLOBE. Did that pa-

okay, screw it. You win. I don't have the kind of patience to keep talking about a red anteater and his green rocks. Have fun.

[Nepenthe]

The way I would do it is, it's always going to be important to the character, but it's something that can take a back seat to more immediate problems. Individual shards are not dangerous enough to supplant Eggman attacking right now.

Neither is the whole Master Emerald.

To a certain extent that's the only reason anything happens. And it's certainly no worse to have him cross paths with Sonic when they're both traveling the world as opposed to him just fucking off to be Eggman's delivery boy for no reason.

Didn't say it was worse, nor do I even think the Sonic 06 example is a good use of the character if that's what you're implying.

If we're just going to assume that Sonic Team is going to fuck everything up, there's no reason even discussing the subject.

I've been discussing this on a level that assumes the best anyway. That is just an aside, my own personal interpretation of what Sonic Team would do with the idea in action based on what they've done before.

The point is that he'd be looking for shards whenever something that isn't more immediately dangerous comes up. When he's out looking for shards and Eggman attacks nearby, Eggman is obviously the more immediate threat, so he gets caught up in that for the length of a game (like, a day or three, at most?) and then goes back to searching for shards.

Which is no different than going, "I was guarding the Emerald, but saw Eggman was a more immediate threat, so I'm going to stop him, then get back to guarding." It has all of the same benefits as your idea but does not even have to entertain any potential at convolution and unnecessary canon alteration which is- again- being had at the expense of getting one single character to appear more often, something I find patently ridiculous.

It doesn't need to be mentioned every time. We don't need every game to explain that Sonic is a drifter, since it's an established character trait.

Neither does Knuckles' guardianship if we simply start assuming Eggman and his quest for the Chaos Emeralds is a big enough threat to warrant leaving it.

Change is scary. Also everything that is suggested is a definite good idea and absolutely will happen, else the whole idea is bunk. Yep. Totally.

I am not adversed to change on a philosophical level; I am adversed to change I don't agree with.

Also, I did not even begin to imply that and you know that. I said just what I did; the ideas people are suggesting here do not amount to good writing. Don't be snarky.

Yes. And what I'm suggesting gives him justification to be off the island, where he can get into these situations, without abandoning his existing character traits.

Going off to fight Eggman to protect the world, and by extension the Master Emerald, does not amount to an abandonment of character traits.

They are not the same thing, but they are similar things. It's not a stretch for them to write the fragments of the magical rock to still be magic.

Again, if we're going to be given free reign to add whatever properties we want to the thing, why not make it so that it can't be broken or moved? Magic's magic, after all.

Because he's fucking busy. I mean of all games SA2 has Eggman taking matters into his own hands and actually going out to get shit done, who's to say he has the time or resources to devote to something that isn't his current brilliant plan?

He obviously had plenty of time if he was trying to steal the Master Emerald in the first place in a plan that had no use for it.

Literally did not happen.

"If it's in pieces, I can restore it." That is the exact line, and it can imply that the pieces themselves are useless on their own, allowing Knuckles ample time to get it back without having to worry about anyone randomly coming along to steal it and use it as a power source, like Eggman was trying to do despite his oh-so ridiculously-tight schedule.

And they've never been written to not have them.

The burden of proof is on you. If it's not been written in, I can fairly assume it's not an existing property.

And since when does displaying properties of consciousness to Knuckles means it has the ability to power up machinery in an in-complete state? Please explain how they are the exact same.

[King Frosty]

Why must we all argue over a Red Echidna and a Brilliant Cutted Giant Emerald Rock? ;w;

[Candescence]

I also think Dio's idea is fantastic, by the way. Better than a contrived reason for every game Knuckles appears in, or no reason at all. And retconning the emerald out entirely is right out.

[turbojet]

So Eggman shatters the Master Emerald to the point where the pieces are uncountable sending Knuckles on a wild goose chase, despite the fact that the same thing happened before(Twice even) and Knuckles was able to find them all in the span of one game.

It gets shattered to extent that it is not merely huge shards, but tiny fragments and Knuckles has to find every single piece. We are not talking about how it is done before. We are talking about doing what has been done before, but making the scale so much more significant to the point it drives the character's being in games.

[azoo]

From what I'm looking at, this isn't hard to comprehend. Knuckles breaks the Master Emerald into tons of tiny pieces.

- Does it allow Knuckles to spend a long-term amount of time treasure hunting and et cetera, while also seeing the world, meeting new people, and going new places? Yes. Character usability and development is cool stuff, guys! Especially when it means Knuckles being a treasure hunter.

- Does it keep Eggman and etc away from it? Yep. Unless if Rouge goes around being a freelance jewel thief again rather than doing whatever she is doing.. hey look, a role for Knuckles to play off of again!

- Does it allow Knuckles to temporarily take on other short-term priorities? Yeah.Once again, more of that flexibility for Knuckles to be in more games for tasks such as helping Sonic take down Eggman's contrived world domination scheme(s).

- Does it have to take just one game to get if they shoot all around the globe? Nope; meaning that this could be a massive ongoing background story element, and could also possibly bring great buildup for Knuckles actually restores Angel Island back to the sky. Talkin' 'bout that character-event buildup!

What's wrong with this concept? Sure, you could nitpick it to death, but isn't that what this fanbase does with everything, anyways? I mean seriously, you guys. You guys, seriously.

Edited June 3, 2012 by Azukara

[Soniman]

Goes to show that no ideas will ever sit right with anyone, especially within the Sonic fanbase.

[Nepenthe]

What's wrong with this concept? Sure, you could nitpick it to death, but isn't that what this fanbase does with everything, anyways? I mean seriously, you guys. You guys, seriously.

You're missing two points there that people are adding on it: 1) That this actual on-going arc be stretched into infinity so as to avoid ever having to craft up another reason for Knuckles to show up in the games, and 2) That everyone else suddenly be after the Master Emerald shards now- even though they weren't before- because they're now a power source they can use, which I and others have some grievances with. If it's just a background element that only effects Knuckles, then cool, but that's not what's being advocated here at all. On top of that, there's a simpler solution, and it has always been the simplest solution: Give Eggman the credibility to create plans that are so insane and dangerous and far-reaching that there will be no question of why Knuckles appears when he does.

And come on; it's not like the people who have disagreements with this idea don't want Knuckles to appear more often. We simply have some issues with it, but fuck me, if people are really going to start in with the "What's wrong with you guys, this is the best thing ever, Sonic fans who disagree just suck" then I'm not going to bother. I had enough of that shit when they revealed Generations' level list, so if my disagreements are really such a bother to you guys, then don't let me rain on your parade. Screw it.

[Marcello]

I'm not a huge fan of Dio's idea, and no offense, but I really don't understand the hype here. I mainly don't like the idea of the island being on water from now on,.

Personally, I don't really need a reason for Knuckles appearing. Him just helping Sonic is enough for me. I think the ME can be ignored for a bit if everything else is going to the shit. I wouldn't want it retconned out, either, seeing as I'd still want the occasional plot revolving around it.

A problem I have with this is you guys are saying that the emeralds can be used to power up Eggman's Doomsday machines and stuff, when previous games have shown that shattered Emeralds are pretty fucking useless when it comes to power. This isn't Inuyasha where the jewel shards are very powerful on their own, It becomes random jewels once it breaks.

The Chaos Emeralds were given new powers constantly through the series, so I don't see why the Master Emerald can't.

Knuckles was in all three Riders games, none of which mentioned the Master Emerald in no capacity, and while it may not be canon, did the game fall apart because he wasn't guarding it? Knuckles appears in Rush, and while he didn't have a major role, did the universe fall apart because he wasn't guarding the Master Emerald?

Eh, I thought it was pretty bad in Rush, seeing as his only appearance was him breaking a rock xD

It is technically less protected, but, it is also far less of a target. Without the Master Emerald, is there any particular reason for Angel Island to be attacked?

Gawsh, fine!

As for the "Floating Island" no longer floating, I'm sure they can write some sort of loophole into the story to make it work. Not that it really needs to float, since the Master Emerald doesn't rest there anymore. The point of it being in the sky was so nobody could get to it... if there's nothing there to protect, what's the point?

People coming in to industrialize the island? The Master Island isn't the only thing Knuckles protects, he protects the island from humans.

And, uh, wouldn't a giant rock just sink after a while? xD

[turbojet]

It seems to me that people just don't want the Master Emerald anymore which if anything would ruin his character. Knuckles has always been the Mountain to Sonic's wind. Sonic can go where ever wants, whenever wants. Knuckles can't do that because he has responsibility to the world to guard that Emerald. Sure, he treasure hunts, but that is dictated to whatever hobble his island just happens to be over. He has always been envious of Sonic's freedom and just handwaving the Master Emerald away would just ruin anything significant about the character. He would be no different than Cream, Amy, or Shadow. In fact, I liked Shadow's defend the Ark premise more than secret agent of GUN. That was the problem with Blaze being in Sonic Generations when it made no damn sense. Lets not get started on her comment about Crisis Core. Jesus fuck.

The problem that we have with Knuckles is that his being there should be an altering event just like Blaze. Something must have happened for him to not be on that damn rock in the sky. Him neglecting his responsibility to hover board is irritating. Him neglecting his responsibility to go to a birthday party is annoying (Hey guise, we can have a party at Angel Island, Vector, Espio, and Charmy already know where it is. We have multiple environments that we can explore, and motherfucking Sky Sanctuary). Yes, the Master Emerald is his ball of chain, but that ball in chain has always been important when it is shattered or when people actively went after it. And yeah, nobody goes after it much more because it actively hasn't been crucial like it should be or Eggman just isn't interested, but trust me, he certainly would not mind going after a construct that controls the Chaos Emeralds or is powerful enough to keep a large mass of land afloat. If anything, this is opportune writing for Eggman and Knuckles.

[azoo]

You're missing two points there that people are adding on it: 1) That this actual on-going arc be stretched into infinity so as to avoid ever having to craft up another reason for Knuckles to show up in the games, and 2) That everyone else suddenly be after the Master Emerald shards now- even though they weren't before- because they're now a power source they can use, which I and others have some grievances with. If it's just a background element that only effects Knuckles, then cool, but that's not what's being advocated here at all. On top of that, there's a simpler solution, and it has always been the simplest solution: Give Eggman the credibility to create plans that are so insane and dangerous and far-reaching that there will be no question of why Knuckles appears when he does.

Edited June 3, 2012 by Azukara

[Diogenes]

So Eggman shatters the Master Emerald to the point where the pieces are uncountable sending Knuckles on a wild goose chase, despite the fact that the same thing happened before(Twice even) and Knuckles was able to find them all in the span of one game.

[turbojet]

And, uh, wouldn't a giant rock just sink after a while? xD

[Soniman]

Edit: never mind I'm an asshole, lol

Edited June 3, 2012 by The Groosenator

[azoo]

EDIT: Woops, accidentally reposted. Whatever my computer was doing there <_>

Edited June 3, 2012 by Azukara

[Diogenes]

2) That everyone else suddenly be after the Master Emerald shards now-