The Knuckles Topic - Is monkey a Knuckles-butt?

[Rusty Spy]

Wait a minute...really? And you've been arguing this long?

Dude, I thought we said it was temporary? (okay well, we didn't use those exact words so thats partly our fault, but still) I'm not fond of it being permanent either, but I do like how it's indefinite as Diogenes said initially. And that was one of the first questions I asked him when he brought up the idea: It's not going to be like that forever, but we don't know when the book will close on it.

The main selling point of his idea was that could be forever, giving Knuckles a permanent justification for him appearing in games from now on.

Using the word "indefinitely" already suggests a long term deal if not permanent. And even if ultimately temporary, I'd still rather it be a primary story arc than a side plot that's only sometimes mentioned, and mainly used as an excuse for Knuckles being around at the time.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

The main selling point of his idea was that could be forever, giving Knuckles a permanent justification for him appearing in games from now on.

I must have seriously overlooked the word "forever" wherever it was said because I had in my mind that it would be long term but not permanent.

And even if ultimately temporary, I'd still rather it be a primary story arc than a side plot that's only sometimes mentioned, and mainly used as an excuse for Knuckles being around at the time.

But it doesn't have to be used as an excuse every time. It could be a focal point, a minor point, or completely non-existent in the sequential plots while Knuckles is around, and Knuckles still gets to build as a character. Kinda like the ARK for Shadow, it could be focal (SA2), minor (okay, no examples here), or non-existent (Sonic 06, Heroes) to the character's involvement.

Edited June 4, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[tenchibr]

I say make a game like Sonic '06's, where you have 3 separate storylines that intertwine, except it's with Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles. End of story: now you get a game where Knuckles can be seen guarding the ME, probably has to rescue it (breaking into pieces got old), and at the same time, allows Sonic to be the star! And heck, it even gives Tails its own story, which he deserves one since he became independent from Sonic in SA1.

[Big Boss (legendsneverdie)]

I couldn't give any less of a shit about what happens to the Master Emerald. I just want Knuckles to show up, and to be playable in another game, the Master Emerald could never appear again for all I care.

[JemiDove]

I've read every single post here, and I don't really know which side to agree with (I'm not really hyped up about Diogenes' idea, it sounds...bland to me), but I really feel that someone should bring up this topic at the Q&A session with Takashi Iizuka at SOS 2012. I don't live in the UK, so I (and everyone concerned about Knuckles) would be really grateful if someone questions him there.

[Rusty Spy]

But it doesn't have to be used as an excuse every time. It could be a focal point, a minor point, or completely non-existent in the sequential plots while Knuckles is around, and Knuckles still gets to build as a character. Kinda like the ARK for Shadow, it could be focal (SA2), minor (okay, no examples here), or non-existent (Sonic 06, Heroes) to the character's involvement.

While I get what your saying, the fate of the Master Emerald is a more immediate problem than backstory.

[Chooch]

So... the simplest and most logical solution to the problem isn't good enough because it's "boring" and "not compelling enough."

*sigh* I give up. I've said all I can say on the subject and I'm not in the mood to repeat myself and my points even more than I have already.

This problem will never be solved. Knuckles will continue to be a spin-off only character and will likely fade into obscurity (if that hasn't already happened).

You have no idea how fucking depressing it is to me that the only real hope I have of Knuckles actually being relevant in the games again is in fucking Episode III.

Edited June 4, 2012 by Chooch

[SenEDDtor Missile]

So... the simplest and most logical solution to the problem isn't good enough because it's "boring" and "not compelling enough."

Edited June 4, 2012 by Enigmatus

[Kuzu]

*Sigh* these arguments are depressing, I have an easier time talking about Shadow.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

While I get what your saying, the fate of the Master Emerald is a more immediate problem than backstory.

Eh, not trying to relate it as a backstory.

Just saying that as an plot device connected to a character, the idea doesn't have to have said plot device around the character every game.

You have no idea how fucking depressing it is to me that the only real hope I have of Knuckles actually being relevant in the games again is in fucking Episode III.

Were that even the case, we wouldn't care enough be having this brainstorm session over how to even make him relevant again. And look at it this way, hardly any of the other characters have that much of a shot at being relevant either, so Knuckles isn't alone here.

Edited June 4, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Diogenes]

So... the simplest and most logical solution to the problem isn't good enough because it's "boring" and "not compelling enough."

Well yeah, I'd rather have a good solution than one that halfasses things.

I mean, come on. We all want Knuckles back. That's half of what this topic is about. But the other half is doing the character justice, of making him an active character in a way that respects his characterization, backstory, etc. Because otherwise we get things like the Heroes-'06 period, where he was just some meathead tagalong. And a solution that basically amounts to doing what they did over that time period does not seem like the best one, in my eyes.

[Auther]

Guys I have an idea here...

What if Sonic was also hunting for the Master Emerald shards, but it's not to help Knuckles?

Sonic may come to the conclusion that Knuckles is a lousy guardian and if he helps repair the M.E. it may just be shattered again.

Sonic can also say that there's nothing wrong with Angel Island being in the ocean and there's no reason for the M.E. to be complete.

Knuckles can take offence to this and maybe be less buddy-buddy with Sonic and actually oppose him at times.

As why Sonic is looking for the shards,,, um... maybe he found some sort of use for them or he is just trying to keep them away from Knuckles and Eggman...

It's just an idea I came up with on the spot though.

[Kuzu]

Well yeah, I'd rather have a good solution than one that halfasses things.

I mean, come on. We all want Knuckles back. That's half of what this topic is about. But the other half is doing the character justice, of making him an active character in a way that respects his characterization, backstory, etc. Because otherwise we get things like the Heroes-'06 period, where he was just some meathead tagalong. And a solution that basically amounts to doing what they did over that time period does not seem like the best one, in my eyes.

As much as I understand this, it still makes the Master Emerald seem like a massive ball and chain on Knuckles, surely Knuckles can develop a decent character arc without having it always tied to the Master Emerald or his backstory can it? I mean defining a character mostly by their backstory or outside factors just seems to limit the character in general; they're more defined by their role in a story, than their personalities.

I'm going to go with that idea from before, the Master Emerald just gets broken when Knuckles realizes how dangerous it is. Knuckles is free to live his life and do whatever the hell he wants, and no longer isn't defined by his former guardian role.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

EDIT: I'd rather not keep this up. Requesting deletion.

Of the topic?

Edited June 4, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Kuzu]

It's no more a ball and chain to him than the future is to Silver and the Sol dimension is to Blaze. Difference is, while the future and a dimension are locations and time periods, the Master Emerald is a physical object that demands protection. To be frank, just wishing it away with a retcon or just blowing it up and outright forgetting about it strips away Knuckles' single most defining role and status. It'd be different if it went away 16-some years ago... but it's been his defining 'gimmick' for a LONG time. You can't just stop bringing it up, it's an elephant in the room for the character.

It's, like, if you wrote a story about the US President, and he went out to do some cool stuff. But, like, shouldn't he be doing his job?

Saying a character can't grow beyond their initial role is bullshit, if Tails was able to mostly move out of Sonic's shadow to being a competent hero in his own right, Knuckles can grow out of his role towards the Master Emerald. Yeah its a defining role, but its also a problem for him as well considering how he's meant to be a main character.

In order for it to really work, you'd have to demote Knuckles to supporting character status along with everyone not named Sonic, Tails, Eggman, and arguably Amy.

Edited June 4, 2012 by The Batman

[Diogenes]

I mean defining a character mostly by their backstory or outside factors just seems to limit the character in general; they're more defined by their role in a story, than their personalities.

I'm not suggesting that Knuckles be entirely defined by his backstory, but it shouldn't be ignored or discarded either.

I'm going to go with that idea from before, the Master Emerald just gets broken when Knuckles realizes how dangerous it is. Knuckles is free to live his life and do whatever the hell he wants, and no longer isn't defined by his former guardian role.

This I find to be a less interesting character. Less than what I proposed, and less than having him stick on his island most of the time. Once you remove the whole "guardian of the Master Emerald" thing from Knuckles, what does his character actually consist of? And sure, you can build new things onto him, but this is still a significant loss, and the new stuff may not jive with why people liked him in the first place.

e:

Saying a character can't grow beyond their initial role is bullshit, if Tails was able to mostly move out of Sonic's shadow to being a competent hero in his own right, Knuckles can grow out of his role towards the Master Emerald.

Ok, y'know? A lot of people didn't like how Tails was growing for a while, with him spending less time with Sonic and with him taking more of a support role. And while it wasn't all bad, I can understand why they were upset losing certain aspects of the character. But, there's an easy compromise here; Tails can grow up a bit and become more independent and still have a close relationship with Sonic, with them being closer to equals rather than the idol worship from back in SA. And Tails can still have an active playable role in addition to being the planner, pilot, and mechanic of the hero side instead of being purely a menu character. Knuckles' situation is (obviously, considering this topic) harder to find a good compromise on, but that's what we should be looking for, growth that works with the previous/current characterization rather than growth that disregards it. Edited June 4, 2012 by Diogenes

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

As much as I understand this, it still makes the Master Emerald seem like a massive ball and chain on Knuckles, surely Knuckles can develop a decent character arc without having it always tied to the Master Emerald or his backstory can it? I mean defining a character mostly by their backstory or outside factors just seems to limit the character in general; they're more defined by their role in a story, than their personalities.

But here's the thing:

THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT WE WERE TRYING TO DO WITH THIS IDEA!

With it, we were taking that ball and chain to Knuckles and finally crafting a key to let him go free. Yes, the ME is still around and yes it will still play an important role in plots. HOWEVER, as a by product of the idea the ME won't always play a major role and in various other cases it can be completely non-existent to the plot and the conflict that's going on and he can still grow as a character.

We still get to have the ME be something connected to Knuckles every now and then, you get to have Knuckles appear whenever the fuck he wants with or without it, and hopefully without his appearance stirring up this kind of debate.

In order for it to really work, you'd have to demote Knuckles to supporting character status along with everyone not named Sonic, Tails, Eggman, and arguably Amy.

Okay, I have been saying this for the longest that I am sick of having these main characters based on seniority when there are other characters who've earned a spot as well.

So even if this worked or not, I would still rather have Knuckles, Tails, and even Amy relegated as supporting characters while Eggman and Sonic take the mains alone.

Edited June 4, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Indigo Rush]

I initially meant my post, but I have half a mind to ask for the entire topic to be locked at this point. This topic has devolved to nothing more than a vicious stalemate.

Edited June 4, 2012 by Indigo Rush

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I initially meant my post, but I have half a mind to ask for the entire topic to be locked at this point. This topic has devolved to nothing more than a vicious stalemate.

Meh. While I'd like a compromise, I'm very much cool with a vicious stalemate because I still get a debate to pick apart.

[Kuzu]

I'm not suggesting that Knuckles be entirely defined by his backstory, but it shouldn't be ignored or discarded either.

That's true, but he should be able to do things that are unrelated to his backstory too.

This I find to be a less interesting character. Less than what I proposed, and less than having him stick on his island most of the time. Once you remove the whole "guardian of the Master Emerald" thing from Knuckles, what does his character actually consist of? And sure, you can build new things onto him, but this is still a significant loss, and the new stuff may not jive with why people liked him in the first place.

It comes down to how its handled, but I think its better than just sticking him on Angel Island all of the time until something happens, or just sending him on an indefinite wild goose chase.

Ok, y'know? A lot of people didn't like how Tails was growing for a while, with him spending less time with Sonic and with him taking more of a support role. And while it wasn't all bad, I can understand why they were upset losing certain aspects of the character. But, there's an easy compromise here; Tails can grow up a bit and become more independent and still have a close relationship with Sonic, with them being closer to equals rather than the idol worship from back in SA. And Tails can still have an active playable role in addition to being the planner, pilot, and mechanic of the hero side instead of being purely a menu character. Knuckles' situation is (obviously, considering this topic) harder to find a good compromise on, but that's what we should be looking for, growth that works with the previous/current characterization rather than growth that disregards it.

But doesn't that just serve to show how much more a problem it is than it isn't? We shouldn't have to pull out our hair trying to figure out what to do with just one character because of something that became irrelevant over 10 years ago.

But here's the thing:

THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT WE WERE TRYING TO DO WITH THIS IDEA!

With it, we were taking that ball and chain to Knuckles and finally crafting a key to let him go free. Yes, the ME is still around and yes it will still play an important role in plots. HOWEVER, as a by product of the idea the ME won't always play a major role and in various other cases it can be completely non-existent to the plot and the conflict that's going on and he can still grow as a character.

We still get to have the ME be something connected to Knuckles every now and then, you get to have Knuckles appear whenever the fuck he wants with or without it, and hopefully without his appearance stirring up this kind of debate.

But he should already be able to leave whenever the fuck he wants, as pointed out before; the only person who even cares about the Master Emerald nowadays is Rouge; Eggman hasn't show any interest in it for years, and I doubt he will anytime soon unless the plot dictates it. With that said, why can't Knuckles just simply show up, maybe doing to some hobby he likes, or just chilling with Sonic and co. and make a one off comment about how the emerald is safe?

Basically Knuckles` appearances 50% of the time should be unrelated to the Master Emerald, the other 50 he can just show up depending on he was doing at the time.

[Indigo Rush]

Fair enough. Kinda wish SEGA had this sorted out to begin with, though.

[Chaos Warp]

I feel like the "be proactive about eliminating threats to the world that the ME is on, therefore leaving it" way of doing it would make more sense is the ME was still hidden in Hidden palace and not on the shrine RIGHT IN THE FREAKING OPEN.

Otherwise, I like Dio's idea. Changes his purpose as a character but not drastically, and gives him the opportunity to travel. If not, I actually don't mind him being chained. There is plenty of creative ways you can still involve him in the plot (I believe CSS made a list somewhere?) I did have my own idea though. Beware, it does change his character big time......

So my idea was that one game Knux just starts getting sick of guarding the ME. When he learns of Eggman's plan-whatever of that game for taking over the world, he sees it as a perfect excuse to take a break from guarding and help Sonic and Co. Sonic and Tails wonder why he isn't guarding the emerald but are still happy he's there to help. And then the endgame comes, and Eggman's final machine is powered by; surprise surprise; the Master Emerald. Knux feels an incredible sense of guilt, and helps Sonic defeat it.

Now here's the twist: Eggman's machine is invincible to anything that's not using Chaos Energy because it generates a Chaos Energy shield around itself that can't be penetrated by ANYTHING other then another large source of Chaos Energy (because of a special ME Energy-harnessing power core,), so Sonic would need to use his Super From to defeat it. So Sonic (and possibly Tails and Knux as well) go super (they have the emeralds by some other plot element/twist I can't think of right now), and obviously win. So at this point Knux still feels incredibly guilty, and he pours out to Sonic and Tails. Tells them how he feels he needs to be responsible to the ME, but wants to live his life free. Sonic and Tails listen, and Tails comes up with a solution!

So Tail's solution is to reverse engineer the power core that Eggman used to make his machine invincible to anything other then a large source of Chaos Energy. So he does said solution and volia! So basically, the ME has a nearly interpretable Chaos Energy shield around it all the time now (obviously powered by the ME it's guarding). Knux is now free to treasure hunt and travel the world. And they all live happily ever after.

Thoughts?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

But he should already be able to leave whenever the fuck he wants, as pointed out before;

Which my side does not want unless we're going to put his status as guardian of the Master Emerald in action. We went through the whole liberty of brainstorming this and making this compromise so that this idea could allow him to leave the island and my side sees no reason anymore to complain "why?" as we've been doing.

If you do anything less than that keep this trait in mind, my side is not ever going to be happy over this and we'll just keep this debate going. The least we're saying here is respect our interest of this character's trait as much as we respect your desire to have him appear more often.

the only person who even cares about the Master Emerald nowadays is Rouge; Eggman hasn't show any interest in it for years, and I doubt he will anytime soon unless the plot dictates it.

And we're saying make the damn plot dictate that Eggman steal and uses it in a way that forces this idea into fruition.

You know, in the same vein that Eggman doesn't always show interest in the Chaos Emeralds unless the plot dictates it?

With that said, why can't Knuckles just simply show up, maybe doing to some hobby he likes, or just chilling with Sonic and co. and make a one off comment about how the emerald is safe?

Because it's a half-assed solution and my side wants a better one with some actual work into it.

There is plenty of creative ways you can still involve him in the plot (I believe CSS made a list somewhere?) I did have my own idea though. Beware, it does change his character big time.....

Yeah I made a list with no less than 10 different ways Knuckles could be involved in the plot, and some of them actually happen to not involve the Master Emerald or make it a background device that plays a very little role. I'd have to find it first.

Fair enough. Kinda wish SEGA had this sorted out to begin with, though.

Honestly, I'd wish they did that with all the things they've brought into the series, because some of them are out of whack like this.

But regarding this topic, I think it's best to leave it open because if you close it, someone else (most likely me) will get the incentive to remake another topic on the subject and then we'll just repeat this process over again.

Edited June 4, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[TheOcelot]

I have always found the Master Emerald a bit of a mystery.

When Sonic and Tails arrived on Angel Island in S3&K, the island was already in the water (pushed down to the water after the Death Egg crash-landed on it). Sonic gets all the Chaos Emeralds back and transports to Hidden Palace briefly (while in Mushroom Hill Zone). The Master Emerald (just how powerful is it?) draws the Chaos Emeralds from Sonic, assesses the power and then scatters them-allowing the Super Emeralds to be unleashed. Sonic then collects the Super Emeralds. Hyper Sonic battles Eggman (Robotnik) who has the Master Emerald in Space. Sonic returns the Master Emerald (and presumably the Super Emeralds) to Knuckles and leaves.

I mean, if all the Master Emerald actually does is let the Island stay in the air, then why not let the island stay on the water-destroy the Master Emerald. Then Knuckles can leave the island-team up with Sonic or whater. I personally felt that Eggman would want the Super Emeralds just as much as the Master Emerald-if not more so.

Knuckles is a great character with great abilities, gliding and climbing. He should be a playable character alongside Sonic and Tails. A must for the next 2d & 3d Sonic games.

Edited June 4, 2012 by MilesKnightwing

[Kuzu]

Which my side does not want unless we're going to put his status as guardian of the Master Emerald in action. We went through the whole liberty of brainstorming this and making this compromise so that this idea could allow him to leave the island and my side sees no reason anymore to complain "why?" as we've been doing.

If you do anything less than that keep this trait in mind, my side is not ever going to be happy over this and we'll just keep this debate going. The least we're saying here is respect our interest of this character's trait as much as we respect your desire to have him appear more often.