The Knuckles Topic - Is monkey a Knuckles-butt?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

But its that very same character trait that's preventing him from appearing more often, how is Knuckles able to grow if every time he shows up, it has to be Emerald related?

Batman, I have said SEVERAL TIMES that it doesn't always have to be emerald related with this idea. Rusty Spy even quotes me at the top of the previous page.

Let me repeat, with this idea the Emerald as fragments can play a major role, a minor role, or even be completely non-existent to the plot and without people like me asking why isn't he guarding the ME.

But the difference being, whether or not Eggman uses the Chaos Emeralds, doesn't dictate if another character will show up.

Nor does it prevent it either so long as the person showing up is justified in appearing.

With the first sentence, Eggman would literally have to go after the Master Emerald, all, or most of the time in order for Knuckles to get a hint of focus. And the whole "Use the Emerald to power my death machine" plot will get old fast.

What the fuck. I though we made it clear that this would be a one-time thing stretched over an indefinite arc? Not Eggman repeatedly going after the thing every sequential plot.

Knuckles should be able to get involved in the action, whether or not the Master Emerald is involved or not.

Okay, I'm starting to get the feeling your blocking the compromise on purpose here.

But I say he shouldn't unless that character trait of his has some relevance outside of this idea, because in addition to being a half-assed way to get Knuckles involved I don't find it to be very coherent either.

But you're under the impression that I want to forsake the thing altogether, and while I do think that'd be a better solution overall considering how much of a hindrance the damn thing has become, I'm not saying his role as guardian should be completely forgotten, I'm saying he should be able to do things unrelated to his role most of the time, just like how Tails doesn't always play sidekick, Shadow doesn't always play rival, etc. etc.

Well it's kind of hard to see you not want to forsake the thing when 1) you blatantly admitted you would prefer to do just that, 2) you keep saying that he should appear whenever he wants to regardless of the ME, and 3) you keep fighting the idea I support that would allow him to do just that in the first place.

I admit, we shouldn't completely forget about Knuckles` role, but he shouldn't be so completely defined by it either, otherwise you're just limiting what you can do with the character.

Dude, just stop it. Because even before this idea came into fruition, I've been trying to expand what more can be done with the character, and I've made that blatantly clear over the hundreds of times we've been in this argument. I've made a list of no less than 10 ways to use Knuckles (and some don't even make the ME a major focus), and I've even allowed a degree of freedom where he can say "fuck the ME the world's in mortal danger", and now with this idea that list stretched from 10 to endless and as I've sad before he can grow into new roles regardless of the ME's involvement. So to say that I'm limiting what I can do with the character is flat out false.

I mean really, not trying to be insulting, but what have you been paying attention to over the many debates this has had? Because I'm trying to make this clearer as possible, so let me try harder: with this idea Knuckles will no longer be completely defined by the Master Emerald, and he would be completely free to go out on adventures with Sonic and Tails or even other characters like Shadow, Rouge, or the Chaotix. In addition to that, he would still be known as the Guardian of the Master Emerald, but he can grow into newer roles that don't even have any relation to the ME.

Now how much further do I have to go to make this as clear as possible? Because trust me, I've always been known to be stubborn enough and go that extra mile here.

Edited June 4, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Diogenes]

That's true, but he should be able to do things that are unrelated to his backstory too.

Literally no one is arguing otherwise.

It comes down to how its handled, but I think its better than just sticking him on Angel Island all of the time until something happens, or just sending him on an indefinite wild goose chase.

Why? It tears a major chunk out of his character, and does not (in itself) offer anything to replace it. We've already had games where Knuckles essentially ditches his duty in favor of going off with Sonic and Tails, and it did not make for an interesting character. Unless you've got something substantial to replace it with, ditching the guardian aspect is just going to leave Knuckles as "the strong guy".

But doesn't that just serve to show how much more a problem it is than it isn't? We shouldn't have to pull out our hair trying to figure out what to do with just one character because of something that became irrelevant over 10 years ago.

It becoming irrelevant 10 years ago is part of the problem! Knuckles' character has totally gone to shit, for multiple reasons, of which practical abandonment of a major aspect of his character (being the guardian of the ME) is one.

With that said, why can't Knuckles just simply show up, maybe doing to some hobby he likes, or just chilling with Sonic and co. and make a one off comment about how the emerald is safe?

Because if that's all the care and attention that you give him as a character, you might as well have it be Omega or Vector or Storm or any of the other Power-type characters. You're effectively stripping Knuckles of what makes him an interesting and unique character.

Basically Knuckles` appearances 50% of the time should be unrelated to the Master Emerald, the other 50 he can just show up depending on he was doing at the time.

How're we going to get 50% of the games he's in to involve the Master Emerald if no one gives a shit about it? Which is the reasoning you just used to justify the other 50%.

Knuckles should be able to get involved in the action, whether or not the Master Emerald is involved or not.

This is true, but if they are going to respect that he has a job to do, he can't ditch the emerald with just a flimsy justification.

I admit, we shouldn't completely forget about Knuckles` role, but he shouldn't be so completely defined by it either, otherwise you're just limiting what you can do with the character.

Limits are not inherently a bad thing. The fact that Knuckles has a duty to uphold, something that compels him to act in a certain way, makes him more interesting than if he had nothing. Does it make him harder to work into a story, yes. But that's the price you pay for having a more interesting character. But when that duty can be discarded on a whim, it ceases to mean anything.

[Rusty Spy]

Thing about Knuckles is that while being guardian of the Master Emerald is an important part of his background, I feel that too many people let that define who he is too much, hence why we have this topic in the first place.

I guess what I'm trying to say is the people who don't want Knuckles' status being undermined whenever he isn't actively guarding the Master Emerald and also want him to be a part of the games again are trying to have their cake and eat it.

Either Knuckles is staying true to his duties and rarely being around or he's playing a part in Sonic's adventures and ignoring his responsibilities.

The Master Emerald can't always be in jeopardy or Knuckles looks incompetent, and Knuckles can't just say 'fuck it' and quit/let it stay broken because it completely goes against his character.

I believe there is no permanent solution to Knuckles being apart of adventures without actively guarding the Master Emerald. Even Dio's would become and stale if there is no resolution and drawn out if it last too long. There's a reason Sonic always collects all the Chaos Emeralds at the end of the game, because there's conclusion. Imagine if every game Sonic collects one emerald with hopes that he'll get another the next and so on?

But while I don't believe there's a way for Knuckles to always be in the games and actively perform his duty, we can still have plots that involve the Master Emerald in some, giving Knuckles a chance to actively be it's guardian.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Limits are not inherently a bad thing. The fact that Knuckles has a duty to uphold, something that compels him to act in a certain way, makes him more interesting than if he had nothing. Does it make him harder to work into a story, yes. But that's the price you pay for having a more interesting character. But when that duty can be discarded on a whim, it ceases to mean anything.

Edited June 4, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Diogenes]

There's a reason Sonic always collects all the Chaos Emeralds at the end of the game, because there's conclusion. Imagine if every game Sonic collects one emerald with hopes that he'll get another the next and so on?

Well considering the emeralds are easily quantifiable I'm not sure that's a great comparison. But I don't think an eternally unfulfilled quest is necessarily unviable. I mean, we don't expect Sonic to beat Eggman permanently, right? Or a character like Wario, eternally greedy, always either screwed out of treasure or simply unsatisfied with what he has and seeking more? Or what about a story about a demon hunter, sworn to destroy all demons, but there are always more demons, so the series just keeps going? This is a series we don't plan to end anyway, so I don't see why leaving the conclusion to some quests in the unseen "after" is untenable. And it's not like there won't be any conclusions; each game would still have its story about fighting Eggman (or whoever) and saving the world, and even anything Knuckles-centric would still have the beating up of a bad guy and the saving of some area and its people, likely in addition to getting a sizable shard and moving his quest one step forward.

[Kuzu]

Batman, I have said SEVERAL TIMES that it doesn't always have to be emerald related with this idea. Rusty Spy even quotes me at the top of the previous page.

Let me repeat, with this idea the Emerald as fragments can play a major role, a minor role, or even be completely non-existent to the plot and without people like me asking why isn't he guarding the ME.

Rusty Spy also said that the problem also lies in this plotline never being fully resolved, and just dragging on. If its never going to be resolved, then what's the point? I mean yeah, it does help him appear more, but then it sticks him on a never ending quest.

Nor does it prevent it either so long as the person showing up is justified in appearing.

What the fuck. I though we made it clear that this would be a one-time thing stretched over an indefinite arc? Not Eggman repeatedly going after the thing every sequential plot.

Okay, I'm starting to get the feeling your blocking the compromise on purpose here.

But I say he shouldn't unless that character trait of his has some relevance outside of this idea, because in addition to being a half-assed way to get Knuckles involved I don't find it to be very coherent either.

Then Knuckles may as well just be demoted to a secondary character then if that's the case, I thought the whole point of this is so he can appear more often, in addition to improving his character.

Well it's kind of hard to see you not want to forsake the thing when 1) you blatantly admitted you would prefer to do just that, 2) you keep saying that he should appear whenever he wants to regardless of the ME, and 3) you keep fighting the idea I support that would allow him to do just that in the first place.

I'm saying we should be able to use him in ways other than the Master Emerald; Knuckles isn't a one note character who's only trait is his guardian role, just like how Tails` only trait isn't being Sonic's sidekick; he has quite a few character relationships, in addition to other hobbies, and abilities that can be used. If we constantly have to deter back to his guardian role, you may as well strip everything else away and leave that as his only character trait.

Dude, just stop it. Because even before this idea came into fruition, I've been trying to expand what more can be done with the character, and I've made that blatantly clear over the hundreds of times we've been in this argument. I've made a list of no less than 10 ways to use Knuckles (and some don't even make the ME a major focus), and I've even allowed a degree of freedom where he can say "fuck the ME the world's in mortal danger", and now with this idea that list stretched from 10 to endless and as I've sad before he can grow into new roles regardless of the ME's involvement. So to say that I'm limiting what I can do with the character is flat out false.

I never said you didn't, I'm referring to how you're using DIo's idea as a base, like I said. It does help him appear more often, and it

does help him get other roles, but I also said that its a potential plotline that will never get resolved.

I mean, I'm sorry if I'm pissing you off and everything, but I think a problem here with everyone is that we're trying way too hard to talk about Knuckles, but a lot of people here(yourself included) are beginning to define him way too much by his guardian role, while others would simply want something else to be done with the character.

I'm not saying Dio's idea is bad, i'm saying that its not perfect and flawed in a few ways.

Literally no one is arguing otherwise.

Considering how much we're bringing it up at this very instance, I beg to differ.

Why? It tears a major chunk out of his character, and does not (in itself) offer anything to replace it. We've already had games where Knuckles essentially ditches his duty in favor of going off with Sonic and Tails, and it did not make for an interesting character. Unless you've got something substantial to replace it with, ditching the guardian aspect is just going to leave Knuckles as "the strong guy".

And this is why we should be trying to come up with things for him, other than being a guardian. Its like you said, take away his guardian role, what is he left with? He's become so defined by it, that he's literally boring as shit without it.

I'm not saying get rid of his guardian role, I'm saying use him in other ways than just that role alone.

And I yes, I know your idea is doing just that, and I have already said the potential problems with it.

It becoming irrelevant 10 years ago is part of the problem! Knuckles' character has totally gone to shit, for multiple reasons, of which practical abandonment of a major aspect of his character (being the guardian of the ME) is one.

And another is completely abandoning other parts of the character as well; he's not just the guardian of the Master Emerald, he's also a major ally of the main character, an experienced treasure hunter, etc.

Because if that's all the care and attention that you give him as a character, you might as well have it be Omega or Vector or Storm or any of the other Power-type characters. You're effectively stripping Knuckles of what makes him an interesting and unique character.

And that's the problem. He's become too defined by that role alone, yes it does make him an interesting character, but it really shouldn't be the only thing his relevance to the series has. This is the problem with him now, since he's so defined by being a guardian, when that role isn't relevant(Which is often), he's effectively just space filler. There should be other uses for Knuckles outside of being a guardian to justify his presence.

How're we going to get 50% of the games he's in to involve the Master Emerald if no one gives a shit about it? Which is the reasoning you just used to justify the other 50%.

How about you use the other 50% for something else?

This is true, but if they are going to respect that he has a job to do, he can't ditch the emerald with just a flimsy justification.

Who's to say he can't take a break once in a while? I mean he can't be guardian 24-7 if he's meant to appear more often.

Limits are not inherently a bad thing. The fact that Knuckles has a duty to uphold, something that compels him to act in a certain way, makes him more interesting than if he had nothing. Does it make him harder to work into a story, yes. But that's the price you pay for having a more interesting character. But when that duty can be discarded on a whim, it ceases to mean anything.

And this is why you give a character more to work with. Characters(especially you're main ones) should be able to be adapted to any given story, and not have one purpose, unless they're secondary or minor characters.

[Diogenes]

I never said you didn't, I'm referring to how you're using DIo's idea as a base, like I said. It does help him appear more often, and it does help him get other roles, but I also said that its a potential plotline that will never get resolved.

And?

Considering how much we're bringing it up at this very instance, I beg to differ.

People keep bringing up the need for Knuckles to act like a guardian because it's important to the character, not because everything he does must revolve around it. If you insist on arguing as if people are saying he can't ever do anything else, we're just going to be going in circles forever, because you aren't actually arguing with us.

And this is why we should be trying to come up with things for him, other than being a guardian. Its like you said, take away his guardian role, what is he left with? He's become so defined by it, that he's literally boring as shit without it.

Well, okay, do you have any ideas? Do you have a suggestion for something that is appropriate to expand Knuckles' character, rather than just declaring that something should be found and expecting that to justify your argument?

And I yes, I know your idea is doing just that, and I have already said the potential problems with it.

Could you refresh my memory so I can try to address them?

How about you use the other 50% for something else?

What?

Who's to say he can't take a break once in a while? I mean he can't be guardian 24-7 if he's meant to appear more often.

Yes, that's the problem, that's what the whole damn topic is about. But just saying "well he can go out whenever he wants" isn't a solution, because that's what they used to do, and it bothered people enough to make these topics.

And this is why you give a character more to work with. Characters(especially you're main ones) should be able to be adapted to any given story, and not have one purpose, unless they're secondary or minor characters.

Buuuullll. Flexibility is nice but it's not what defines a good character.

[Kuzu]

And?

If the entire point of breaking the Emerald is for Knuckles to get off the island, and you're ultimately going to never have it resolved. You may as well just have Knuckles himself forget about it altogether.

People keep bringing up the need for Knuckles to act like a guardian because it's important to the character, not because everything he does must revolve around it. If you insist on arguing as if people are saying he can't ever do anything else, we're just going to be going in circles forever, because you aren't actually arguing with us.

I have yet to see anybody try to bring up anything unrelated to his guardian role.

Well, okay, do you have any ideas? Do you have a suggestion for something that is appropriate to expand Knuckles' character, rather than just declaring that something should be found and expecting that to justify your argument?

Well he's a treasure hunter for starters....

Could you refresh my memory so I can try to address them?

The whole deal about it not being resolved.

Yes, that's the problem, that's what the whole damn topic is about. But just saying "well he can go out whenever he wants" isn't a solution, because that's what they used to do, and it bothered people enough to make these topics.

Then its like Rusty said, he can't be guardian 24-7, if people want him to appear more often.

Buuuullll. Flexibility is nice but it's not what defines a good character.

...So being rounded and dynamic does not make for a good character is what you're trying to tell me.

[Diogenes]

If the entire point of breaking the Emerald is for Knuckles to get off the island, and you're ultimately going to never have it resolved. You may as well just have Knuckles himself forget about it altogether.

Except that it has an effect on Knuckles' character regardless of whether or not we ever see the resolution. It allows him to keep a connection to his guardian duties while still being out and available for different things. People like him being the guardian, which is why I proposed the idea in the first place instead of saying "well fuck the emerald he can do whatever whenever".

Well he's a treasure hunter for starters....

Okay, so, how do we justify him going from someone with an important duty to uphold to someone who can go treasure hunting on a whim without ruining what people like about the character.

The whole deal about it not being resolved.

Is that it? Because that's not even really a problem.

Then its like Rusty said, he can't be guardian 24-7, if people want him to appear more often.

No shit. Do I have to explain again how no one is arguing that he should be guarding the emerald 24-7?

...So being rounded and dynamic does not make for a good character is what you're trying to tell me.

Being a well rounded character does not mean being able to be inserted into any situation.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Rusty Spy also said that the problem also lies in this plotline never being fully resolved, and just dragging on. If its never going to be resolved, then what's the point? I mean yeah, it does help him appear more, but then it sticks him on a never ending quest.

I said I prefer it to be temporary but a bit long term. Diogenes said it could go on forever, and I completely overlooked where he said that.

Then Knuckles may as well just be demoted to a secondary character then if that's the case, I thought the whole point of this is so he can appear more often, in addition to improving his character.

It is.

Although in regards to what you said, I'd rather he, Tails, and Amy be demoted to secondary characters regardless of this never-ending debate because I don't want that to bestow them a certain privilege that other characters would never have as easily.

I'm saying we should be able to use him in ways other than the Master Emerald; Knuckles isn't a one note character who's only trait is his guardian role, just like how Tails` only trait isn't being Sonic's sidekick; he has quite a few character relationships, in addition to other hobbies, and abilities that can be used. If we constantly have to deter back to his guardian role, you may as well strip everything else away and leave that as his only character trait.

Which is also what we've been saying this idea would allow. That's why I said many times over that there can also be plot points where the Emerald is completely non-existent and he can still grow into newer roles.

I never said you didn't, I'm referring to how you're using DIo's idea as a base, like I said. It does help him appear more often, and it does help him get other roles, but I also said that its a potential plotline that will never get resolved.

I'm using Dio's idea as a base for a potential plotline, but I for one would be using so with the intent to resolve it at some point. I think that's the only part where Dio and I may differ with it.

I mean, I'm sorry if I'm pissing you off and everything,

Oh no, don't worry. You're not pissing me off this time. I'm just emphasizing because I feel that some things aren't being listened to well enough.

but I think a problem here with everyone is that we're trying way too hard to talk about Knuckles, but a lot of people here(yourself included) are beginning to define him way too much by his guardian role, while others would simply want something else to be done with the character.

No no no no no.

I would love for something else to be done with him as well and I wouldn't define Knuckles that much by it any more than I would define Shadow as the Ultimate Lifeform. Problem is, a lot of the other people are all to willing to forsake the ME, and as much as I want Knuckles to grow into other roles and be involved in other ways, I'm not in favor of forsaking the ME. And it's partly because while we may be making use of the other roles, we could still fall back to the ME whenever we want to make that a plot element.

Just like with Space Colony ARK for Shadow. The character has grown into other roles such as a GUN Agent and can continue to be characterized without relating to the ARK, but it's still there for us to use whenever we have a plot around it. And I know there are plenty of ways we can use the ARK without always making use of the Eclipse Cannon.

Or heck, just like how Shadow's the Ultimate Lifeform, I don't expect that to give him easy wins if he gets in a fight...probably my weakest example, but hopefully you can see where I'm coming from.

I'm not saying Dio's idea is bad, i'm saying that its not perfect and flawed in a few ways.

And I know exactly what those flaws are.

However, I'm embracing that because I actually want to use those flaws as an eventual plot point...depending on whatever flaws are on your mind.

Edited June 5, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Diogenes]

For the record I would be okay with them actually finishing the shard collection since it's still worlds better than what they've done with the past decade, I just don't see a need for it and I think it'd probably be better to stick with it then go back to...well, this situation.

[Rusty Spy]

Well considering the emeralds are easily quantifiable I'm not sure that's a great comparison. But I don't think an eternally unfulfilled quest is necessarily unviable. I mean, we don't expect Sonic to beat Eggman permanently, right? Or a character like Wario, eternally greedy, always either screwed out of treasure or simply unsatisfied with what he has and seeking more? Or what about a story about a demon hunter, sworn to destroy all demons, but there are always more demons, so the series just keeps going? This is a series we don't plan to end anyway, so I don't see why leaving the conclusion to some quests in the unseen "after" is untenable. And it's not like there won't be any conclusions; each game would still have its story about fighting Eggman (or whoever) and saving the world, and even anything Knuckles-centric would still have the beating up of a bad guy and the saving of some area and its people, likely in addition to getting a sizable shard and moving his quest one step forward.

Edited June 5, 2012 by Rusty Spy

[Diogenes]

Why can't we create a new status quo?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Status quo doesn't necessarily need to be restored in the conclusion. I could be changed outright even in the conclusion and the characters cope with the changes.

Granted, there's not very much change that goes on in this series, but I don't see the problem in shaking things and keeping it that way for the characters to cope with. And honestly, I'm very much open to ideas on changing the status quo as a conclusion of a plot.

Edited June 5, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Rusty Spy]

Why can't we create a new status quo?

[Diogenes]

For reasons we've already gone over for the past 2 days.

[Rusty Spy]

...please, forgive me, and what reasons are these that we can't actually do interesting things?

Gaahhhh, I typed it up and erased it before I posted my last post, but I can't not say it: the status quo of this series is a bloated, useless mess and desperately needs to be changed. The characters can't do anything interesting because they're too busy being stuck as exactly the same shallow archetypes they've always been, no real long-term consequences exist because everything's always fixed by the time the credits roll, and the series just continues to gunk up under a mass of disconnected stories and vague, shallow characterizations.

Change in this case wouldn't solve anything. We'd be right back where we started.

[Diogenes]

...okay how do you figure?

[Rusty Spy]

...okay how do you figure?

[Milo]

Hey hey hey gaiz, I have an idea.

Replace Knuckles with Mighty. He's red, and since he's name is Mighty, you could just assume he's quite strong. Therefore Knuckles is stuck guarding the ME for the rest of his pitiful life, but Mighty is made relevant again and with good character development could go on his way to not being adknowledged as a Sonic recolor.

Everyone except the Knuckles fans who along with the character aren't really relevant to the Sonic franchise anymore wins.

I know, my plan is brilliant. No need to bow down and pay homage to my genius.

[smogfog]

Hey hey hey gaiz, I have an idea.

Replace Knuckles with Mighty.

But Mighty's copyrights don't belong to Sega for a long time already...

Edited June 5, 2012 by crystallize

[Mangoaxe5]

name='crystallize' timestamp='1338889421' post='493732']

But Mighty's copyrights don't belong to Sega for a long time already...

Sega does own the copyrights to Mighty. If they didn't it would have been illegal for Archie to use him in the Sonic comics.

Edited June 5, 2012 by Catwoman

[tenchibr]

But this is The Knuckles Topic, not The Mighty Topic. All I can think about is "who will succeed Knuckles?" What happens when he dies? The ME will just be like "fuck it?" He needs to retire and find a replacement, or at least, create a organization not unlike Archie's Brotherhood, and establish a working schedule to guard it among its members.

Edit: The answer is right on your face too, the Chaotix. They can literally establish their detective agency on the outlooks of the ME shrine and there you go. Knuckles can go adventure while they guard it, and if the Chaotix and Knuckles are both needed, Mighty can watch the ME.

Edited June 5, 2012 by tenchibr

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Edit: The answer is right on your face too, the Chaotix. They can literally establish their detective agency on the outlooks of the ME shrine and there you go. Knuckles can go adventure while they guard it, and if the Chaotix and Knuckles are both needed, Mighty can watch the ME.

Yeah, we've said plenty of times that some of us don't want a flimsy excuse for Knuckles to adventure, and that happens to be a flimsy excuse.

[Darth InVaders]

I think a decent excuse would be that Angel Island was not raised at the end of Sonic Adventure (spin-offs be damned I guess), and Knuckles just carries the Master Emerald around like in SA2 (or maybe remove the shrinking for some humorous scenes of him trying to store or carry it safely on say the Tornado) - and returning home only now and then. Since Angel Island was not shown again after crashing down a 2nd time in the Super Sonic story, it would not even be a retcon of a major game story like SA.

It's a flawed excuse, but I think it would be a decent one.