The Knuckles Topic - Is monkey a Knuckles-butt?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I think a decent excuse would be that Angel Island was not raised at the end of Sonic Adventure (spin-offs be damned I guess), and Knuckles just carries the Master Emerald around like in SA2 (or maybe remove the shrinking for some humorous scenes of him trying to store or carry it safely on say the Tornado) - and returning home only now and then. Since Angel Island was not shown again after crashing down a 2nd time in the Super Sonic story, it would not even be a retcon of a major game story like SA.

It's a flawed excuse, but I think it would be a decent one.

That's even worse because not only is it even flimsier than the last one I called out, it's incoherent to boot.

[tenchibr]

Yeah, we've said plenty of times that some of us don't want a flimsy excuse for Knuckles to adventure, and that happens to be a flimsy excuse.

If that's the case, then Knuckles should just say, "Fuck tradition, I am getting older, and I am not doing any better! I want some adventure too, and therefore, I relieve myself of my duties." That's a lot better.

If Eggman takes the ME, then take it away from him, and dump it in the ocean. The floating island not floating, oh well; it's not like there's any life in it.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

If that's the case, then Knuckles should just say, "Fuck tradition, I am getting older, and I am not doing any better! I want some adventure too, and therefore, I relieve myself of my duties." That's a lot better.

No, that's an even flimsier excuse, and a worse one at that.

If Eggman takes the ME, then take it away from him, and dump it in the ocean. The floating island not floating, oh well; it's not like there's any life in it.

Let me say this to save you the trouble of going further. If in each and every one of you ideas you are trying get rid of the ME or forget about it in any form with the only reason being so that Knuckles can hang out with Sonic and the gang, I'm going to say "no" to each and every one of them. Okay?

If, on the other hand, you actually put more thought and effort in it, and the idea has Knuckles much more proactive in the plot (and doing so preferably for his own reasons that are more than just to hang out, as much as I'd allow it), and with a reasonable justification for him being away from the ME, then you'll have a higher chance of me saying "yes" to it.

The most recent debate here has been about having Eggman take the ME and having Knuckles shatter across the world and either putting his treasure hunting skills to good use and preventing other people from misusing the shards or sacrificing it because it is too powerful and doesn't want it to be misused (and therefore building his character). Notice how I'm not saying anything along the lines of "Get rid of the Master Emerald or let someone else watch it so Knuckles can be with Sonic and Tails".

Edited June 5, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Nepenthe]

I just want to say that the option to actually rid Knuckles of his guardianship duties should not be stubbornly thrown off the table simply because it's currently a major part of his characterization now. We've already had two cast members shed a major tenet of their older characterizations and they've arguably been better off for it.

Shadow is the obvious example; his past was a major driving force of his character and for most of his major appearances, and in hindsight, there is a relevant consensus that says most of what came of that was just plain awful. Fast forward to Sonic 06, where the complete lack of his past to get in the way of his arc was considered one of the few highlights of that entire travesty.

Tails is the other considering he was once beset by multiple arcs of him trying to step out of Sonic's shadow, and this overall characterization made him into an insecure and whiny furball. Now he's being written as Sonic's equal, someone with the competency and confidence to match his friend, a person who's seen Sonic do it all, and as of Colors, he's a far more interesting foil for Sonic and a wittier character in general.

Finding a way to throw the Master Emerald away is and should be a valid option in this conversation. I see no reason to constrict the solutions of this problem to only including the Master Emerald from now on, even if the ways to do so are contrived, or else being told you'll be ignored. Honestly.

[Darth InVaders]

That's even worse because not only is it even flimsier than the last one I called out, it's incoherent to boot.

How? It stays true to his character on both fronts: his devotion to his duty by keeping constant watch over the ME, and his jealous desire to go on adventures like Sonic

Edited June 5, 2012 by Darth InVaders

[Mangoaxe5]

I think it's a bad idea to get rid of the Master Emerald. It's a big part of Knuckles story. To me getting rid of the Master Emerald is like taking Sonic's speed away.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I just want to say that the option to actually rid Knuckles of his guardianship duties should not be stubbornly thrown off the table simply because it's currently a major part of his characterization now. We've already had two cast members shed a major tenet of their older characterizations and they've arguably been better off for it.

Edited June 5, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Nepenthe]

But on of my main reasons for keeping the Master Emerald is because I actually want to use the damn thing in future plots, partly the same way we use the Chaos Emeralds as well. (Other reasons are as a deterrent for people who would block other characters from appearing out of sheer dislike and simple fan service for appearing, but that's besides your point)

Unlike Tails who was trying to grow out of Sonic's shadow and be his own character, or Shadow who was letting go of his past to be himself from then on, Knuckles' solution isn't as intangible as you can't use someone's past or someone's insecurity as a potential weapon to affect the world or throw them away and act like it never existed, and they don't come with a risk of making an island plummet out of the sky. And with that said, you can't just up and forget the ME that easily and even more, the latter two character's story arcs didn't just up and retcon those aspects out of existence just to have the characters around nor were their reasons for growing to the way they are half-assed so that they could be around (although in Shadow's case it was more convoluted, but I'm not wanting to go that route for Knux here). As far as I see it, Knuckles shouldn't get the easy or a half-assed way out of this dilemma either; you'd gain less than you would for the character than you would if you actually put more work into the problem that could develop him, just in the same way Tails and Shadow did for their respective characters.

If you see value in using the Master Emerald, that's all fine and dandy, but it doesn't refute my point on the basis of the attitude I'm attacking. People are partly against the idea because it's such a "part of Knuckles' characterization" that the two have now become inseperable, so much so that, in my opinion, Knuckles is weaker for it in ways, unable to stand on his own two feet as an independent entity. However, a character getting tied with an object or idea so much so that the two ideas are inseperable isn't some new thing in or out of the series, nor does shedding that object or idea inherently have to destroy that character as I've already demonstrated with two examples. I expected you to be pretty sympathetic to the Shadow example: we've both dismissed the idea that Shadow could not function without his past being in play when people used to insist that a character that had gone through an arc was therefore useless. "What other stories can you tell?" Infinite ones. A character doesn't end because they go through one adventure.

And who said the Master Emerald needed to be retconned in a way where it was just completely written out of canon and no one was none the wiser, much less questioned it. Why can Knuckles go through a logical arc that ends with the Master Emerald actually being destroyed forever?

One of the options on the table piggybacked off of Diogenes idea but instead involved sacrificing it because of it's massive power and because of that I happen to find it to be another alternative with the added benefit of potentially using it again by having Eggman secretly gathering them over time. And I happen to support that idea.

But in the same vein that I would expect other characters to have a deliberately created reason for being around, I would expect the same from Knuckles.

I can get behind sacrificing the thing permanently, but I still have to ask: Why is "Eggman is a significant threat that needs to be addressed" not enough for any and every character to appear? Why do we need some grandiose backstory to be thought up every single time for every character's mere appearance if their names aren't Sonic, Tails, and Eggman? Has an actual answer been given to this question in this topic yet?

Edited June 5, 2012 by Nepenthe

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

If you see value in using the Master Emerald, that's all fine and dandy, but it doesn't refute my point on the basis of the attitude I'm attacking. People are partly against the idea because it's such a "part of Knuckles' characterization" that the two have now become inseperable, so much so that, in my opinion, Knuckles is weaker for it in ways, unable to stand on his own two feet as an independent entity. However, a character getting tied with an object or idea so much so that the two ideas are inseperable isn't some new thing in or out of the series, nor does shedding that object or idea inherently have to destroy that character as I've already demonstrated with two examples. I expected you to be pretty sympathetic to the Shadow example: we've both dismissed the idea that Shadow could not function without his past being in play when people used to insist that a character that had gone through an arc was therefore useless. "What other stories can you tell?" Infinite ones. A character doesn't end because they go through one adventure.

I think we're hitting the wrong wall here then.

Because while I'm saying him being the the ME's guardian is a character trait of his I don't believe there aren't any other any other stories you can tell with the character even without it. However in addition to that, that very attitude of "what other stories can you tell?" is another reason why I tend to hold Knuckles so firmly to that because some people are all too dismissive to block the other characters from being used and say that there's little-to-no other way to tell a story with anyone beyond the Classic cast, yet they're all too willing to think of any way to get the Classic cast involved either simply because they were around in the Classics (and you already know my attitude on that) or even so far as to say "no reason at all". Characterization is one reason I hold on to this, and being a Deterrent is the other.

My thoughts are clear on that right?

And who said the Master Emerald needed to be retconned in a way where it was just completely written out of canon and no one was none the wiser, much less questioned it.

The people who keep saying "retcon it"? What else are they implying if that's not the case for them wanting to get rid of it?

I'd also name specific people, but I don't want to be too disrespectful in calling them out.

Why can Knuckles go through a logical arc that ends with the Master Emerald actually being destroyed forever?

Because I like the idea of actually using it, and if you destroy it forever, then there goes that very possibility.

I can get behind sacrificing the thing permanently, but I still have to ask: Why is "Eggman is a significant threat that needs to be addressed" not enough for any and every character to appear?

First of all, it is enough, but I wouldn't expect you to use that in every sequential game unless you want to give the impression your just throwing characters in otherwise.

That's the very reason why I didn't question Knuckles being around in ShTH, because the world was on it's knee trying to survive an alien attack, and since these aliens are everywhere on the planet everyone needs to help. But unlike games such as Sonic 06, Eggman wasn't that significant a threat for characters like him to be around just for the sake of delivering a letter and then to find a Chaos Emerald in the last story (and I kept track of everything he did in that game, and believe me when I say I found it to be very insignificant).

Why do we need some grandiose backstory to be thought up every single time for every character's mere appearance if their names aren't Sonic, Tails, and Eggman? Has an actual answer been given to this question in this topic yet?

No, we don't need some grandiose backstory to be thought up every time, but I'd like an explaination as to how that event involves them in the first place to get involved.

Hypothetical:Eggman's attacking this single city, so why is X character here when they could have been elsewhere?

• Sonic? I'd accept Sonic just being in the area because the guys a drifter who goes where he wants and just so happened to have been in the area.
  
• Shadow? The city could contain GUN resources and he's been deployed to protect it.
  
• Heck, here's a good one for Knuckles: Angel Island was hovering over that very city and got caught in a blast from the attack, and since he doesn't want his island to be destroyed (and by extension the ME) he decides to get involved.
  

Now is that too hard to think of other ways to make him involved that differ from "Eggman's a significant threat"? I can think up more than that for Knuckles alone because I have a full list. (I just need to scrounge around the message boards for it)

Edited June 6, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Nepenthe]

I think we're hitting the wrong wall here then.

Because while I'm saying him being the the ME's guardian is a character trait of his I don't believe there aren't any other any other stories you can tell with the character even without it. However in addition to that, that very attitude of "what other stories can you tell?" is another reason why I tend to hold Knuckles so firmly to that because some people are all too dismissive to block the other characters from being used and say that there's little-to-no other way to tell a story with anyone beyond the Classic cast, yet they're all too willing to think of any way to get the Classic cast involved either simply because they were around in the Classics (and you already know my attitude on that) or even so far as to say "no reason at all". Characterization is one reason I hold on to this, and being a Deterrent is the other.

My thoughts are clear on that right?

I understand what you're saying, but frankly I think what classic cast purists do should have very little bearing in a conversation where people aren't adhering to much less advocating for those kinds of extremist ideals in the first place. I think your steadfastness to an equality that has supposedly been set back by a group of fans that- to my knowledge- don't frequent these kinds of conversations much less this entire forum is a bit problematic in that regard and is drawing tension and disagreement where it might not belong.

The people who keep saying "retcon it"? What else are they implying if that's not the case for them wanting to get rid of it?

I'd also name specific people, but I don't want to be too disrespectful in calling them out.

You can retcon or write something out of canon in a multitude of ways. It doesn't have to be "the next installment, we're going to simply write this a certain way as if it has always existed like this." Have an arc where the object or character in question is on permanent leave and there you go; it's not really a disregard of canon.

Because I like the idea of actually using it, and if you destroy it forever, then there goes that very possibility.

I asked that in hopes of an answer beyond preferences. Is there anything logically preventing Sonic Team from implementing such an idea? Is there something in-canon that wouldn't make it work?

First of all, it is enough, but I wouldn't expect you to use that in every sequential game unless you want to give the impression your just throwing characters in otherwise.

That's the very reason why I didn't question Knuckles being around in ShTH, because the world was on it's knee trying to survive an alien attack, and since these aliens are everywhere on the planet everyone needs to help. But unlike games such as Sonic 06, Eggman wasn't that significant a threat for characters like him to be around just for the sake of delivering a letter and then to find a Chaos Emerald in the last story (and I kept track of everything he did in that game, and believe me when I say I found it to be very insignificant).

No, we don't need some grandiose backstory to be thought up every time, but I'd like an explaination as to how that event involves them in the first place to get involved.

Hypothetical:Eggman's attacking this single city, so why is X character here when they could have been elsewhere?

• Sonic? I'd accept Sonic just being in the area because the guys a drifter who goes where he wants and just so happened to have been in the area.
  
• Shadow? The city could contain GUN resources and he's been deployed to protect it.
  
• Heck, here's a good one for Knuckles: Angel Island was hovering over that very city and got caught in a blast from the attack, and since he doesn't want his island to be destroyed (and by extension the ME) he decides to get involved.
  

Now is that too hard to think of other ways to make him involved that differ from "Eggman's a significant threat"? I can think up more than that for Knuckles alone because I have a full list. (I just need to scrounge around the message boards for it)

I read your explanation to Chooch, and again I find it problematic to be basing the validity of potential solutions on how the community uses those solutions to create in-arguments about the fairness of character appearances. If you're referring to Sonic Team's potential for abuse, I don't think you have much of an argument. Beyond the fact that every idea is prone to abuse, when it comes to using the secondary cast they've never really played favorites anyway. Either a ton of characters have appeared or the smaller casts have been fairly unorthodox in their appearance and importance.

And frankly, I would expect them to keep using it because it's a perfectly valid explanation, and it doesn't somehow lose that validity the more you invoke it (mostly because characters really should be appearing based on the needs of gameplay anyway, and some characters will be better for certain gimmicks than others). When a villain attacks, heroes will strike. It's simple, it's logical, and it works for every single other superhero series that is episodic in this vein, so much so that I'm not really understanding why Sonic is such a big exception nowadays. Of course, I'm not adversed at all to the writers going on to explain specifically why a certain character happened to be around. I mean, that's good writing. But I get the idea such a thing is being advocated as the mandatory and minimum benchmark for every single character sans Sonic and Tails from now on, and I think it doesn't actually need to be with the exception of obvious cases like Silver and Blaze. Otherwise, the very act of conflict with the world's fate at stake has always been enough to draw together various casts of characters, and I don't see why it's not good enough here.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I understand what you're saying, but frankly I think what classic cast purists do should have very little bearing in a conversation where people aren't adhering to much less advocating for those kinds of extremist ideals in the first place. I think your steadfastness to an equality that has supposedly been set back by a group of fans that- to my knowledge- don't frequent these kinds of conversations much less this entire forum is a bit problematic in that regard and is drawing tension and disagreement where it might not belong.

We must not be reading the same number of posts then, because I come across quite often. It may not be frequently (and I'd probably put that on the count of me constantly barking these very points at them so much), but there are occasions when I see this very sentiment on these boards.

Even so, that's something I'd still hold on to as a precaution regardless.

You can retcon or write something out of canon in a multitude of ways. It doesn't have to be "the next installment, we're going to simply write this a certain way as if it has always existed like this." Have an arc where the object or character in question is on permanent leave and there you go; it's not really a disregard of canon.

The way you worded this made me look at that in a bad light.

You're talking about permanent leave for a single installment right and not series-wide, right?

I asked that in hopes of an answer beyond preferences. Is there anything logically preventing Sonic Team from implementing such an idea? Is there something in-canon that wouldn't make it work?

If they can implement and idea to where I won't be making a fuss like I do about this, I honestly don't see why not.

The only thing in-canon that I think would prevent them from destroying it permanently would be the fact that you can piece it back together however. I'd go further, but I'm not the person who prefers using spin-offs in my point unless I have to.

I read your explanation to Chooch, and again I find it problematic to be basing the validity of potential solutions on how the community uses those solutions to create in-arguments about the fairness of character appearances. If you're referring to Sonic Team's potential for abuse, I don't think you have much of an argument. Beyond the fact that every idea is prone to abuse, when it comes to using the secondary cast they've never really played favorites anyway. Either a ton of characters have appeared or the smaller casts have been fairly unorthodox in their appearance and importance.

Not really referring to Sonic Team, but simply pointing out how problematic I find it to be from my end.

And frankly, I would expect them to keep using it because it's a perfectly valid explanation, and it doesn't somehow lose that validity the more you invoke it (mostly because characters really should be appearing based on the needs of gameplay anyway, and some characters will be better for certain gimmicks than others). When a villain attacks, heroes will strike. It's simple, it's logical, and it works for every single other superhero series that is episodic in this vein, so much so that I'm not really understanding why Sonic is such a big exception nowadays.

Except even in superhero series, they don't use EVERY single character on EVERY given plot, and for those with a more central protagonist not everyone of them makes that much use of specific other characters where they're appearing all the time either. When shit really hits that fan to the point where EVERYTHING is clearly at stake on, say a global scale for example, it would make sense to have to call in the whole league of characters to take down the threat. When the threat is concentrated more locally, however much of a potential it has to be a huge problem if unchecked, I don't expect the whole cast of characters to come running in to fix the problem because you don't always need 7 or more characters to handle what could have been done with 3 or less, and that's where it loses it's validity.

I mean I could pull out examples here. And since we're talking about superheroes, a example would be the Justice League, as they didn't always throw all 7 of it's members to take care of a threat when they can easily take care of it with fewer unless things were escalating to where they needed to call in the others, and was the same when they grew into a much larger league that they didn't have too many people on one thing. In the same sense, I wouldn't expect that from Sonic or any other series for that matter in how something is such a massive threat in each sequential title.

I think that's another part against it's validity, it becomes predictable and potentially boring when you do that. But that might not be relevant as far as this argument is going.

Of course, I'm not adversed at all to the writers going on to explain specifically why a certain character happened to be around. I mean, that's good writing. But I get the idea such a thing is being advocated as the mandatory and minimum benchmark for every single character sans Sonic and Tails from now on, and I think it doesn't actually need to be with the exception of obvious cases like Silver and Blaze. Otherwise, the very act of conflict with the world's fate at stake has always been enough to draw together various casts of characters, and I don't see why it's not good enough here.

Like I said, the less global the threat is, the less number of characters would be expected to be involved.

Maybe there's some words that I'm not getting out that's leading to this block, so let me try to rephrase it. In the plot, exactly how is what's going on any of the character's business for them to get involved away from what they're usually doing? That's what I would like be justified, and if the reason doesn't scale up to the character being around then they might as well have not been there in the first place. For Knuckles, he's the ME's Guardian, so unless something's disrupting that I'm not expecting him to be involved except in special circumstances; for Shadow, he's a GUN agent, and unless somethings involving his military duties I'm not expecting him to be involved beyond special circumstances; for the Chaotix, they're detectives, and unless whatever's going on involves the case they're currently investigating, and blah blah blah, you get my drift. Heck, even with him being a sidekick, we could even apply that to Tails.

The less these things get address the more I'm going to criticize their role in the plot, and Knuckles happens to be a potentially large bullseye in these things particulary his involvement in Heroes and Sonic 06. (Amy comes in as a very close second, but we'll jump that train when you choose to)

EDIT: Holy crap English can be a grammatical nightmare!

Tell ya what. Since we're still going to be at this stalemate, let's make this debate even MORE fun. We'll give each other several different hypothetical plot summaries and challenge one another to involve Knuckles differently in each one. Restrictions that we can use the character and certain plot devices as many times as we want, but we can't use the same idea twice (so neither of us can say "Knuckles breaks the ME" more than once if it was already used to involve him, for example).

You first.

Edited June 6, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Nepenthe]

We must not be reading the same number of posts then, because I come across quite often. It may not be frequently (and I'd probably put that on the count of me constantly barking these very points at them so much), but there are occasions when I see this very sentiment on these boards.

Even so, that's something I'd still hold on to as a precaution regardless.

I've read the sentiment from time to time, but it's not a significant consensus nor does it pop up often. I've not even read about it in this topic, so I see no reason to assume people are playing favorites if they've not expressed the intent.

The way you worded this made me look at that in a bad light.

You're talking about permanent leave for a single installment right and not series-wide, right?

I'm talking series-wide. Whenever I say I want the Master Emerald gone, I mean it needs to go the way of the dodo. But this is obviously a point where we'll have to agree to disagree.

Except even in superhero series, they don't use EVERY single character on EVERY given plot, and for those with a more central protagonist not everyone of them makes that much use of specific other characters where they're appearing all the time either. When shit really hits that fan to the point where EVERYTHING is clearly at stake on, say a global scale for example, it would make sense to have to call in the whole league of characters to take down the threat. When the threat is concentrated more locally, however much of a potential it has to be a huge problem if unchecked, I don't expect the whole cast of characters to come running in to fix the problem because you don't always need 7 or more characters to handle what could have been done with 3 or less, and that's where it loses it's validity.

Who is advocating every single character get involved in every single plot??? A call to action that works universally doesn't obligate the writers to utilize every single character all the time, which again is especially true for video games where it's unwieldy to have 30 characters enter the fray. No one who says that Eggman's attempts to enslave or alter the will of humanity is good enough even wants to see everyone all the time. We mean just what we say: If Sega decides Charmy, Omega, and Jet should be the principle cast of a game alongside Sonic, or Amy, Shadow, and Cream and Cheese, or Big and Storm, or any of the other numerable combinations that are possible, Eggman's shenanigans alone are already enough justification for most of them to be there, the only exceptions being characters separated by dimension or something. If the writers are nice enough to explain exactly why they're there, then that is just icing on the cake (if done well), but the idea is that it should never be some big mystery as to why anyone think it's a good idea to stop the guy who's trying to take over the world.

I think that's another part against it's validity, it becomes predictable and potentially boring when you do that. But that might not be relevant as far as this argument is going.

It is fairly irrelevant. Besides, I'm not one to hinge a character's entire worth on whether or not they entered a story in the best way possible, but rather if they had a big impact throughout the narrative.

Like I said, the less global the threat is, the less number of characters would be expected to be involved.

Maybe there's some words that I'm not getting out that's leading to this block, so let me try to rephrase it. In the plot, exactly how is what's going on any of the character's business for them to get involved away from what they're usually doing? That's what I would like be justified, and if the reason doesn't scale up to the character being around then they might as well have not been there in the first place.

But when has Eggman ever not wanted to take over the world? His specific actions may be local throughout a game, but he's never had ambitions that only stopped at one city. He means to make the entire world populous worship him whether it be through militaristic force or mind control. This means that whenever he makes a move, it immediately becomes the business of every single person who has the ability to stop him when they come on to their schemes and are in the area. Really, what is more important than the safety of the world that any character can see Eggman or someone else attacking and go, "Meh, I don't have time for this"? (Aside from pride, because Shadow was a douche when he did that.)

Tell ya what. Since we're still going to be at this stalemate, let's make this debate even MORE fun. We'll give each other several different hypothetical plot summaries and challenge one another to involve Knuckles differently in each one. Restrictions that we can use the character and certain plot devices as many times as we want, but we can't use the same idea twice (so neither of us can say "Knuckles breaks the ME" more than once if it was already used to involve him, for example).

You first.

I don't understand. Do we make up a plot summary for a game or a reason for Knuckles to be involved in a general situation?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Who is advocating every single character get involved in every single plot???

I kinda thought you were for a moment, but since you're not we can move on from that.

But when has Eggman ever not wanted to take over the world? His specific actions may be local throughout a game, but he's never had ambitions that only stopped at one city. He means to make the entire world populous worship him whether it be through militaristic force or mind control. This means that whenever he makes a move, it immediately becomes the business of every single person who has the ability to stop him when they come on to their schemes and are in the area.

But see that's the thing. Whenever he makes a move, it doesn't always call for every single person who have the ability to stop him, because the situation might not have always needed them. Kinda like Knuckles involvement in Sonic 06 where the most he did was deliver a letter to Sonic from Eggman and then finding a Chaos Emerald, while not a single thing he did went towards helping to stop Eggman.

Really, what is more important than the safety of the world that any character can see Eggman or someone else attacking and go, "Meh, I don't have time for this"? (Aside from pride, because Shadow was a douche when he did that.)

The Master Emerald.

No, but seriously. When Eggman cracked the world into several pieces in Unleashed, all it needed was just Sonic, Chip, Tails, and Prof. Pickle to help put things back in order. Cracking the world was without a doubt the biggest justification for every character in the whole series to help out piecing it back in the same vein they did when Black Arms nearly conquered the planet, and that's as big an immediate area in this series as you can get (actually, it isn't, but for the sake of scale let's say so). However, they weren't so much as seen throughout the game, despite having every reason to show up. In fact, I was disappointed he didn't show up since the trailers had already shown the planet breaking apart AND that it was said in one of the demos that he would appear.

Apparently they didn't have time to help out. For that matter, that's why I would like things to have more of an explaination as to why this threat is their business aside from Eggman wanting to use it to conquer the world, because for that matter they may very well not have time to do so.

I don't understand. Do we make up a plot summary for a game or a reason for Knuckles to be involved in a general situation?

Just for Knuckles to be involved in a general situation, but you have to justify it more than simply Eggman being a threat otherwise it'll risk falling short. I'll start so that you can see what I'm talking about.

Eggman makes a series of satellite cannons which, unlike the ARK which could destroy a whole country or planet, could simply destroy entire cities, and fires one near Central City to threaten the world to surrender to him. Since these cannons can hit anywhere on the planet, and for the sake of driving the plot Eggman happens to fire a shot near Angel Isle, Knuckles gets involved in destroying the weapons for the safety of his home and by extension the entire world.

Plot Device: the Satellite Cannons.

No Master Emerald in that scenario.

Now you try.

Edited June 6, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[tenchibr]

For the record, my suggestion to dump the ME in the ocean was pure trolling; I did not mean it, nor am I offended by anything that was said in this topic.

Putting that aside, I agree that the responsibility Knuckles has with ME is holding him back. If you look at the Archie Knuckles, the ME was much more closely tied to him, and it's possible some of you believe things should stay the way they are because of it (not that this is true today, but it's still relevant.)

To be quite honest, I am surprised at how far people are arguing over something like this. I don't mean to insult though; it just shows how passionate we can be about Sonic and his universe. However, I can go to sleep without having to know if Eggman forgot to check if his Eggmobile needs an oil change, or if Tails forgot to brush his teeth. Yes, Knuckles as the one and only Guardian of the Master Emerald is a big deal in Sonic's universe, but for most of us, we just want to be able to interact with him.

My main point is this: Sonic is primarily for kids. Kids don't care for lore in Sonic games; in Sonic comics, sure. Sonic cartoons? Makes sense. But you don't play a Sonic game for his story; it's definitely up there on the list of top reasons why I love Sonic, but, for example, while I think Mario has great storytelling, I don't play his games nearly as much.

I want to see Knuckles more. If ST can deliver a great canon way to bring him back, awesome. But if not, I don't care. For those that do, I respect your opinions but if ST thinks like you, I feel that there's more to lose than to gain because of the overthinking behind this.

Edited June 6, 2012 by tenchibr

[Nepenthe]

But see that's the thing. Whenever he makes a move, it doesn't always call for every single person who have the ability to stop him, because the situation might not have always needed them. Kinda like Knuckles involvement in Sonic 06 where the most he did was deliver a letter to Sonic from Eggman and then finding a Chaos Emerald, while not a single thing he did went towards helping to stop Eggman.

What happened to Knuckles in Sonic 06 was effectively bad writing, which we should remember is a potential shortfall of every single literary idea, including all of the alternatives being offered here. There was no reason for him to show up in that game in hindsight because his part is completely negligible, but this doesn't mean that Eggman's himself is not proper justification for Knuckles to appear regardless. And I repeat, I'm not saying every character needs to show up all the time; just that when someone does, it really shouldn't be some big controversy.

The Master Emerald.

No, but seriously. When Eggman cracked the world into several pieces in Unleashed, all it needed was just Sonic, Chip, Tails, and Prof. Pickle to help put things back in order. Cracking the world was without a doubt the biggest justification for every character in the whole series to help out piecing it back in the same vein they did when Black Arms nearly conquered the planet, and that's as big an immediate area in this series as you can get (actually, it isn't, but for the sake of scale let's say so). However, they weren't so much as seen throughout the game, despite having every reason to show up. In fact, I was disappointed he didn't show up since the trailers had already shown the planet breaking apart AND that it was said in one of the demos that he would appear.

Apparently they didn't have time to help out. For that matter, that's why I would like things to have more of an explaination as to why this threat is their business aside from Eggman wanting to use it to conquer the world, because for that matter they may very well not have time to do so.

I disagree immensely. Other characters didn't appear because Sonic Team didn't write them in. There's no canon reason for it such as "busyness," which is fine at the end of the day. The story we were presented with didn't need any other characters to function. However, had they appeared, it would've been no big secret why. That's my entire point: There is currently room for almost anyone to appear without having to jump through hoops and even alter canon because the justification for such is always inherent in the common narrative itself.

Just for Knuckles to be involved in a general situation, but you have to justify it more than simply Eggman being a threat otherwise it'll risk falling short. I'll start so that you can see what I'm talking about.

In that case, what if Eggman creates a shielding device that allows him to isolate strategic areas of the world and begin to set up strongholds in them an effort for world conquest, and Knuckles just happens to get caught in one of these and decides to take it out from the inside? I had to admit, this seems like it could become quite broad, don't you think?

[---]

Is this endless debate still going on? Well, guess it's not called endless for nothin'....seriously what progress has been made? How can you guys constantly go at it like this, it's amazing lol.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

What happened to Knuckles in Sonic 06 was effectively bad writing, which we should remember is a potential shortfall of every single literary idea, including all of the alternatives being offered here. There was no reason for him to show up in that game in hindsight because his part is completely negligible, but this doesn't mean that Eggman's himself is not proper justification for Knuckles to appear regardless. And I repeat, I'm not saying every character needs to show up all the time; just that when someone does, it really shouldn't be some big controversy.

To be honest, it's not exactly a big controversy, it's just a question that gets asked to the point it escalates into making this topic.

But honestly, I don't agree that Eggman himself should be the proper justification for Knuckles to appear regardless. I just like more substance than that.

I disagree immensely. Other characters didn't appear because Sonic Team didn't write them in. There's no canon reason for it such as "busyness," which is fine at the end of the day. The story we were presented with didn't need any other characters to function. However, had they appeared, it would've been no big secret why. That's my entire point: There is currently room for almost anyone to appear without having to jump through hoops and even alter canon because the justification for such is always inherent in the common narrative itself.

But the justification just lacks substance and I'd like more than that as a added part of why they get involved than just the simple fact that Eggman's a threat.

Although Diogenes had already explained to me in the earlier pages of this topic that the plot synergizing the themes that were in Unleashed, and that's not really much of a case to argue.

In that case, what if Eggman creates a shielding device that allows him to isolate strategic areas of the world and begin to set up strongholds in them an effort for world conquest, and Knuckles just happens to get caught in one of these and decides to take it out from the inside? I had to admit, this seems like it could become quite broad, don't you think?

Definitely.

My idea:

Eggman creats a device that digitizes entire cities into his own pocket world to rule. The device goes at random in snagging people into this virtual world and Knuckles happens to be caught by the device out of nowhere. Now he and the cast have to find a way to free themselves from this digital prison and back into the real world.

Your turn.

[tenchibr]

My idea:

Eggman creats a device that digitizes entire cities into his own pocket world to rule. The device goes at random in snagging people into this virtual world and Knuckles happens to be caught by the device out of nowhere. Now he and the cast have to find a way to free themselves from this digital prison and back into the real world.

Your turn.

ChaosSupremeSonic presents: Sonic Generations DX - now with movable side-characters!

[Darth InVaders]

Because part of your idea is the same half-assed excuse other people keep bringing up how Knuckles could be around, and the other part completely ignores that the only reason Angel Island fell in the first place was because it was near the Chaos Emeralds keeping it a float. And while no one saw Angel Island rise again, that doesn't mean it's hard to assume that it rose back up once Chaos took all the Emeralds because the whole mythos is that the Master Emerald keeps Angel Island afloat.

Meh, admittedly I was not that fond of it either but it is not as terrible as you make it out as - and I still find it better than any proposed alternatives thus far.

Furthermore the part about the Chaos Emeralds preventing the Master Emerald from returning Angel Island to the skies is a fan theory, not confirmed canon - it is just as plausible that all 7 Emeralds are required to be used in conjunction with the Master Emerald to return Angel Island to a "Floating Island". Evidence in spoiler...

In ending of Sonic 3 & Knuckles, the Tornado carries the Master Emerald (and also the 7 Chaos Emeralds) onto Angel Island, the island flashes and starts lifting off before the Tornado appears from behind it again so the Emeralds were still close by.

In the Sonic Adventure Super Sonic story, Knuckles only has 6 of the 7 Emeralds nearby, the island rises up pretty far before going back down.

I am NOT taking a position on which of either of these fan theories is true (actually a third theory is that Chaos itself was holding the island up somehow - but that comes from the notoriously unreliable Prima Game guides which are responsible for Super Shadow being called "Hyper Shadow" and claiming that Omega rescued Rouge from the Eggman base in Heroes; needless to say I don't put any stock in that), I'm just using this as evidence that the true canon is not known.

Edited June 6, 2012 by Darth InVaders

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

ChaosSupremeSonic presents: Sonic Generations DX - now with movable side-characters!

It's only Generations if you have Time Eater and take a trip down memory lane with old levels.

Edited June 7, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[- Eternal Paradox -]

One thing which seems to be brought up a lot is "Sonic Heroes has poor storytelling". Now, while this true to a certain degree, all the characters had a valid reason for being there:

Team Chatiox? Hired by eggman to rescue him.

Team Rose? Searching for Sonic, Froggy and Chocola.

Team Dark? They all want something eggman - Rouge wants treasure, Shadow wants awswers, Omega wants... revenge.

Team Sonic? This one's pretty open. Here's my interpertation. Basically, Eggman one of them a letter. It'd make more sense if it was tails. Tails then flies off to find the others. Probably just looking for Sonic, but runs into knuckles along the way. Knuckles does the whole bigger threat thing Rusty Spy's been talking about, joins tails and they both go looking for sonic (Although Knuckles's a bit half hearted about it, sort of "Do we really need him?).

The problem only really comes in with Sonic 06, where Knuckles has no excuse for being there. I think the sonic series could have carried on the way it was, if it hadn't been poorly recieved by both fans and critics.

Sonic 06 and the start of sonic Generations are the only examples where Knuckles doesn't have an excuse, but does he really need one? Perhaps Big was guarding the M.E. for him?

Edited June 8, 2012 by Paradox

[Anti Alias]

Hey, that's great!

it would make a new status quo.

Knuckles must find the pieces of the master emerald.

Knuckles can hang out with his friends.

he is always searching for them but he will never find them.

WIN!

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Sonic 06 and the start of sonic Generations are the only examples where Knuckles doesn't have an excuse,

[- Eternal Paradox -]

Time out dude. Sonic 06 is one point, but that's a no-go for Generations.

Ah, good point. Sorry, I didn't think that through.

It's more that EVERYONE has the same excuse, yet it's not a very good one - Sonic's birthday. Why is blaze in sonic's universe? Sonic's birthday. Why isn't Knuckles guarding the M.E.? Sonic's birthday. Why aren't the chaotix off doing dectective work? Sonic's birthday.

Oh though, on that point, maybe Knuckles went to sollena - for that famous festival? Agian, not really much of an excuse, but it's on the same par as sonic's birthday.

I think it's easier for Tails and Amy to be excepted into a plot, because they are (And always will be) Sonic's tagalong friends. They don't really need an advanced reason. But when you get into other characters, who have perhaps a lot more plot and backstory, then it becomes a lot harder to write them in.

One thing that confuses me, is the beginning of Sonic riders. What are they all doing there? I know they're meant to be searching for a chaos emerald, but WHY? That's something I don't really comprehend. They even go so far to explain why Amy's there, yet Knuckles? No explainion at all.

Also, in Riders:0.G. It would make a lot more sense if KNUCKLES had been the one to find arc of the cosmos, and He took it to tails. Or they ALL found one, and met up. It seems a lot better to me than him just lazing around in the back of their car.

Sonic Free riders? Er... I'm not going to bother with this one. All of the characters' motives in that one were just too out of sync.. I find it somewhat Ironic that Vector, a character who seems the most out of place in this game, has the most valid and in character reason for being there.

Actually, I'm quite enjoying thinking up reasons/excuses for Knuckles to show up in the certain games. And I don't think there's going to be just ONE defintive answer (Not that anyone ever said there would be) for this problem. Sonic is a series, so there's going to be lots of opetunites for plots that do/don't involve Knuckles. I think if Sega really wanted to include him, they'd find a way. But I think he'd need to be playable, otherwise he might seem a bit unnessicary. And Sonic Team seems to be set on the "Only Sonic" route for a while now.

And I like Dio's Idea. I can see it working for a sonic that is more of a "Series" in sense, rather than a list of unconnected games that feature the same characters. The closest thing I can link it to is the Ratchet and Clank series. Previous events are acknowagled, some of the games lead into the others... But then, Ratchet and Clank have a much easier backstory. They were never part of the18-bit console wars. The only problem they've run into with localisation is changing the game's title.

But I'd love to see a more connected sonic series, and I think Dio's Knuckles idea is a good one, that would help series connectivity, and help put Knuckles back into the spotlight.

Edited June 9, 2012 by Paradox

[Johnny Boy]

I like Dio's idea but here's something I just thought of. You know how in Sonic battle it says that Chaos 0 can come out of the ME whenever the world is in danger? Well I was thinking maybe Knuckles can call up Chaos to guard the emerald for him sometimes. I know this idea might be a bit flawed but I think it's interesting.