The Knuckles Topic - Is monkey a Knuckles-butt?

[Indigo Rush]

I feel like we need something like that more than anything. However, there's one problem with this that raises lots of questions.. what if we had a game that potentially goes back to Angel Island? How would we explain anyone that isn't Sonic, Knuckles, Shadow, etc coming in? Or for that matter, how do we explain badniks getting into the area?

All provided through the plot. For Angel Island to be visited for a game, there'd have to be some sort of issue there to begin with, say the Master Emerald suddenly stops everything due to some third party situation that has yet to be discovered.

For example, a meteor that's huge enough that it's impact overpowers the Master Emerald, or there's some sort of cosmic cycle that no one is aware of that causes the Emeralds to stop working for a season. Or, like I put forth before, Eggman somehow convinces a character like Shadow or Silver to steal the Master Emerald for him. It's a tough one, but it can be exploited if needed.

[Diogenes]

I still think less is more regarding Angel Island's defenses. It only really needs plausible defenses, not a full lockdown.

Or for that matter, how do we explain badniks getting into the area?

This is also an issue. Having some nigh-impregnable magic barrier might be too much protection, making it too difficult to actually use Angel Island, at which point it's not much different from not having it at all.

[azoo]

Why not just that same barrier you described, Indy, but around the entirety of the Hidden Palace? Dio's got a point; it'd limit the usage of the island wayyyy too much, especially since trying to write a story for it would require lots of extra complicated stuff or some source that's beyond Eggman's work.

Edited June 1, 2012 by Azukara

[Indigo Rush]

Why not just that same barrier you described, Indy, but around the entirety of the Hidden Palace?

Could also work. I'm not quite as fixated on my idea as I initially came across.

The general idea is that the Master Emerald isn't involved unless there's a special event during a game that would require it, anyway. Otherwise, if the defenses were low enough for Eggman to get through, he'd theoretically just keep at it over and over again. Not that he actually has since the earlier games, but the potential has always been there.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

The idea's got me of all people on board. However, Diogenes makes a strong point as well.

Like with anything, you don't want to give something so much to the point that it becomes irrelevant (which is another fault we want to avoid for this case). Giving the island a nigh-impregnable shield would likely be doing too much, as Diogenes outlined. Having said that, you did make it a point to still leave it open to attack from characters who could use said energy to bypass the shield. However, you should also have more of a motiviation for the person trying to bypass it. Of course, there are some simple ways to make a motivation, so that's not really much of a problem.

The other problem comes from Knuckles newly developed abilities. Now to be honest, I really like the idea of Knuckles developing new powers, and that shield idea could be useful in making him an equal to characters like Shadow; Shadow is the spear while Knuckles is the shield...or in more powerful terms, Shadow is a nuke while Knuckles is a nuclear bunker. If these two were to get into a fight, Knuckles ability to project Chaos Shields would cancel Shadow's ability to use Chaos Attacks. But you don't want it to get too game-breaking since Knuckles get's his power straight from the Master Emerald which can cancel the powers of the Chaos Emeralds.

It's a great idea, but it has a few kinks in it that you want to be wary of.

[Diogenes]

Okay here's a thought

What if we break the Master Emerald

And Knuckles has to find the pieces?

No, seriously, think about it. Make a game where Eggman steals the Master Emerald. Have it get blown to fuck, scattering shards across the planet. And then have Knuckles search for them...indefinitely. We get a game where there's a real and lasting impact on at least one character. And in every game from then on, we get the best of both worlds with Knuckles; he's still trying to fulfill his duty as the guardian, but he's doing it in a way that involves being out in the world. [[EDIT: FUCK]] So Knuckles would get to be both Guardian and Treasure Hunter, travel the world and cross paths with Sonic and the other heroes, and not be tied down guarding one big thing anymore.

Edited June 3, 2012 by Diogenes

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Gives Knux more independence as a character.

But how long would that even last?

And I'm a bit cautious about having the shards create monsters.

[Diogenes]

But how long would that even last?

It could be forever.

And I'm a bit cautious about having the shards create monsters.

Yeah, it's not something to do lightly, but it's just an option, not an integral part of the idea.

[Kuzu]

That actually sounds pretty plausible, and not overly convoluted.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Makes major use of the Master Emerald being a threatening tool, even if in pieces.

A much better idea than just shattering the rock and then forgetting about it just to hang out with friends, because now he just made his job even worse yet he can hang around more than just Sonic and Tails. Lord knows characters like Shadow and Rouge would get their hands on these things in pieces.

[Kuzu]

Makes major use of the Master Emerald being a threatening tool, even if in pieces.

A much better idea than just shattering the rock and then forgetting about it just to hang out with friends, because now he just made his job even worse yet he can hang around more than just Sonic and Tails. Lord knows characters like Shadow and Rouge would get their hands on these things in pieces.

That's the entire point, the emeralds fall into the wrong hands and Knuckles has to wander to fix the problem. Occasionally he would come across Sonic & Co. and help them out with whatever problem they're dealing with, and maybe get a shard or two and then be on his merry way.

[Indigo Rush]

I actually really like this idea. This makes the Master Emerald a continual plot point, lets Knuckles do his treasure hunting thing, and he still keeps his job as the guardian.

My only issue would be the theoretical damage this would have on the balance of the whole Chaos Force stuff. Like, for SA1 and SA2, the Master Emerald wasn't broken for that long, and the Chaos Emeralds still worked okay. What would happen if this carried on for a longer period of time? Could it be building up to an eventual climax where the prolonged dispersion of the Master Emerald's energy causes some kind of deadly cataclysm?

Just an idea/

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I actually really like this idea. This makes the Master Emerald a continual plot point, lets Knuckles do his treasure hunting thing, and he still keeps his job as the guardian.

My only issue would be the theoretical damage this would have on the balance of the whole Chaos Force stuff. Like, for SA1 and SA2, the Master Emerald wasn't broken for that long, and the Chaos Emeralds still worked okay. What would happen if this carried on for a longer period of time? Could it be building up to an eventual climax where the prolonged dispersion of the Master Emerald's energy causes some kind of deadly cataclysm?

Just an idea/

But isn't that a good side-effect of the idea? Because it gives Knuckles far far more to do now and with far more responsibility by giving him more opportunities to appear in plots. It also allows other characters besides the Classic Trio to potentially be involved.

EVERYBODY FUCKING WINS!!!!!!

I think what kept us from this idea was that we didn't want it to be a repeat of the Adventures where Knux is constantly fixing the damn thing and we didn't want things to be repetitive. But now we can break it and make shit even more dangerous while carrying over several games instead of breaking it and putting it together all in the same game.

Angel Island can appear as a regular island in the ocean for R&R for Knux and any other character he's tagging along with while still holding on to some significance. And it can also be a hideout for any other allied characters who need a place to stay.

Congratulations guys, I think we've finally solved the problem.

Edit: More to add. I just got a spark of inspiration from the Megaman series with this idea. Anyone familiar with the Dark Elves and the Baby Elves in the Zero series? These AI constructs have the power to mutate machines into even more dangerous forms of robots.

With that in mind, we can take Diogenes' idea over having monsters and replace that with having stray robots either run amok with power overwhelming their programming and circuitry or we can have Eggman harness some shards he could potentially find and use them to upgrade his robots into more powerful yet controled machines.

I think the only thing left to worry about is what happens if after a long while, the emerald pieces are eventually put back together. But why worry about that when we can stretch this indefinitely? Hell, the pieces could be like the Chaos Emeralds and run the risk of flying out of the robot or (in the case that they're much larger fused pieces) shattering once again across the world.

Edited June 3, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Kuzu]

Figures its Dio who comes up with the idea, for all his cynicism, the guy has some pretty good ideas.

[Nepenthe]

It's an interesting idea for sure, and I like that it would get him off the island permanently, but it doesn't entirely solve the dilemma in my mind. I don't see how it ends any supposed repetition, because really, all Knuckles is doing here is a massive Emerald Hunt; it'll just have an excuse to take place across every game, which fundamentally isn't entirely different or better from a pragmatic standpoint than simply having it continuously break in more quantifiable shards. It also doesn't excuse him to take a detour into Sonic's own adventures unless the shards are shoehorned into the plot, which again is something that can be done episodically as it already has been in the Adventures. Perhaps I'm jaded towards the Master Emerald (I actually hate it), but I'm not seeing what this solves, so... elaboration?

And what about Angel Island? Is that just in the ocean forever? xD

Edited June 3, 2012 by Nepenthe

[Indigo Rush]

It's just so perfect.

Knuckles is still guarding it.

Knuckles is doing his treasure hunting thing.

Knuckles gets screen time when needed, without there being a convoluted reasoning.

The Master Emerald has plot relevance.

There's potential risk involved, creating a prolonged sense of urgency for Knuckles.

This opens up more conflict between Rouge and Knuckles regarding said shards.

Diogenes wins, everyone.

[Kuzu]

It's an interesting idea for sure, and I like that it would get him off the island permanently, but it doesn't entirely solve the dilemma in my mind. I don't see how it ends any supposed repetition, because really, all Knuckles is doing here is a massive Emerald Hunt; it'll just have an excuse to take place across every game, which fundamentally isn't entirely different or better from a pragmatic standpoint than simply having it continuously break in more quantifiable shards. It also doesn't excuse him to take a detour into Sonic's own adventures unless the shards are shoehorned into the plot, which again is something that can be done episodically as it already has been in the Adventures. Perhaps I'm jaded towards the Master Emerald (I actually hate it), but I'm not seeing what this solves, so... elaboration?

And what about Angel Island? Is that just in the ocean forever? xD

Well it the Master Emerald doesn't always have to be shattered at every single interval for starters, it lets Knuckles keep his credibility as a guardian rather than somebody who's too inept to keep track of it, and really who says Knuckles can't stop his journey and help whoever out?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Indigo. Change the topic title on the Master Emerald Problem. The Members of SSMB need to know this shit NOW!

It's an interesting idea for sure, and I like that it would get him off the island permanently, but it doesn't entirely solve the dilemma in my mind. I don't see how it ends any supposed repetition, because really, all Knuckles is doing here is a massive Emerald Hunt; it'll just have an excuse to take place across every game, which fundamentally isn't entirely different or better from a pragmatic standpoint than simply having it continuously break in more quantifiable shards.

See that's what kept us resistant to following that idea, but that's ends up being the point. The Master Emerald Shards end up like the Chaos Emeralds themselves, scattered all across the world. But instead of just being something Knuckles just has to find and put together, other characters who would potentially want to use them or keep them could find them and use them for their purposes.

GUN could use them for their mechs. Shadow could use it to enhance his chaos powers. Rouge could just be in it for collecting them. Eggman could use it for his doomsday weapons. If you want, Sonic and Tails could wind up using them for some reason, and that could respark potential rivalries and even add new ones into the fray.

It also doesn't excuse him to take a detour into Sonic's own adventures unless the shards are shoehorned into the plot, which again is something that can be done episodically as it already as been. Perhaps I'm jaded towards the Master Emerald (I actually hate it), but I'm not seeing what this solves, so... elaboration?

Actually, it kinda does. We don't have to use the shards every plot, and in the process of looking for the shards Sonic or some other character like Shadow or the Chaotix, or hell even Silver, could be brought in to assist him or he could be assisting them. Just like how Eggman and folks aren't always after the Chaos Emeralds (and I mean that lightly), they won't always be after the ME shards either.

And what about Angel Island? Is that just in the ocean forever? xD

Yes. It can still be Knuckles home, and his fortress of solitude. He can even use it to store whatever emerald pieces he has or give shelter to friends who need it. Hell, we can go all sorts of ways with this.

This just opens up a whole pandora's box of ideas that can be crafted as Knux carries on with this journey.

Edited June 3, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[---]

Eh, semantics. Gotta love 'em.

Except the risk of getting stale if all your doing is just putting it into the plot just to have Knuckles around?

The same staleness that hit Shadow when people thought he was taking over too much? The same staleness that led to people getting out right sick and tired of the "Monster of the Week" and had Sonic Team playing around with it in more dynamic ways than they did in the past? The same staleness that led to many getting sick of only playing Super Sonic at the end of the game instead whenever they have 50 rings? The same staleness that led to a number of us here getting sick and tired of "Sonic-only" and want to play as other characters?

And the same staleness that is making me bring this very detail to your attention so that you can brainstorm a way to avoid it for the character?

Level 10 ownage, excuse me, carry on.

[Nintendoga]

This sounds like a cheap way to shoe-in Knuckles to me honestly. I mean yes, Knuckles is the guardian of the Master Emerald, however, it doesn't mean that he can only be in games where the Master Emerald is important. Heroes, Shadow, and 06 let him be in games without it and yet nobody really gave a fuck.

You say it will have lasting impact but is that really a good thing considering his gameplay and style? Being realistic for a moment, let's say this idea did happen, but back in Unleashed. You're saying that Knuckles could...hunt for the emeralds while Sonic runs around and does Werehogish stuff. Then in Colors, Sonic and Tails run around on the Amusement park while....Knuckles hunts for emeralds. And in Generations, Sonic runs around and saves Time while.....Knuckles hunts for emeralds. If they did that for every game, not only would it make him feel more redundant, as it wouldn't change his gameplay style nor his character development at all, it would get boring after a while.

And what if he does find the Master Emeralds? What would they do then? Break it up again, making it a more cliche'd and unnecessary way to shoe-in Knuckles into the game's plots. And if Eggman did use the master emeralds to power robots and such, well if it was for one game only, I'd be disappointed but would accept it. But if it;s every game, then it would put the focus on the series more upon Knuckles himself when it's the Sonic series.

The Master Emerald doesn't have to be there. Knuckles can't just take a break, or get someone else like the Chaotix to guard the Emerald while Sonic needs help? Honestly, would anyone even make a fuss about it if Knuckles just showed up at the beginning of the game and say "Taking a break to help save the world" or "Got someone else to guard it for me"

I just want to play as Knuckles and glide around while punching shit. I could really give less of a crap about the story, and some of you guys think that Knuckles can only be there when he's central to the plot, when really he doesn't have to. He's been in the series for over 15 years, I think he's high up on the popular list to where he can show up in a game without the Master Emerald and no explanation is needed. It's like this for many other Sonic games and characters as well.

[Indigo Rush]

Topic title changed accordingly, and I'll add a link to the respective post.

This could seriously be one of the best ideas the fanbase in general has come up with.

[Rusty Spy]

I'm with Nepenthe in believing this doesn't solve much. It still seems like incredibly roundabout "solution" to a problem that is only considered such by people who assume too much. It is a 'self-fulfilling conundrum' to begin with.

It's a solution to a problem that was never there to begin with, and presents an almost hilarious fit of irony.

People always complain that Knuckles not constantly guarding the Master Emerald opens it and Angel Island up to any intruders that may befall it, yet this solution not only does the exact opposite of assuring these two item's safety, but actually compounds the problem.

Now beside the Chaos Emeralds there are potentially hundreds of emerald shards of potentially equal or greater power that any super power could harness, and Angel Island is in even less safe position from invaders, it being on the ocean like a normal island instead of hundreds of feet in the sky.

You may argue this gives Knuckles a reason to be on adventures with Sonic, but that itself was never an actual problem, but a product of fan's suspicion of the supposed safety of the powerful relic.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Knuckles helping Sonic stop Eggman is him indirectly protecting the Master Emerald and Angel Island, as Eggman's defeat would ensure the nullification of Angel Island's greatest possible threat. I'm still not understanding how he needs any further justification for what amounts to speculation of the emerald's current status when Knuckles is away.

Edited June 3, 2012 by Rusty Spy

[Kuzu]

I may like the idea, but I think you guys are blowing this a bit out of proportion. Yeah it helps Knuckles travel more, but wouldn't the Chaos Emeralds make it kind of redundant? I mean they already are the mystical gems people want to abuse for power, so what would the Master Emerald shards do that they can't?

In fact, this is a problem with the Master Emerald in general, what the fuck does it do? It keeps a small island afloat, and turns off the Chaos Emeralds(Something that isn't all that unique), outside of that, its not all that important. So why can't we just get rid of the thing, and just make Knuckles the guardian of just the Chaos Emeralds? I mean what the hell are we losing by getting rid of it?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

...

...

Wow, amazing how things have shifted. People who were once hard on Knuckles actually found an idea to loosen up, while those who were loosened up to other ideas became hard on this particular one.

I mean, here we once were debating between those willing to shoehorn him in a game regardless of the ME's significance and those who want to maintain the ME's significance to Knux role as a guardian. Now we have an idea that FINALLY makes the latter group that I'm apart of willing to shut the hell up only for the former group to find flaws in it? The tables have definitely turned.

Honestly, if you ask me the idea just solved a lot of story issues.

We don't have to worry about how certain characters aren't getting any attention, they practically get it at random and the cast can potentially be mixed instead of the typical Teams of characters we've been getting. Hell, Shadow could be on Knuckles side and they could both be fighting Sonic and Tails for the shards...or Knuckles and Omega fighting the Chaotix...or Knuckles and the Chaotix fighting GUN...or the heroes fighting the villians...or a three-way between the heroes, the villains, and the neutral parties fighting for the shards. (<---- do you see what I fucking did there? *goes mad from the revelation*)

We don't have to worry about the Master Emerald...well actually, yes we do, because that's the whole point. In fact, it becomes a global problem just as much as it is Knux's problem because now any random person could have a single shard of nigh-unlimited power and cause trouble due to a lack of knowledgeble use or because they have knowledgeable use of it.

And Knuckles doesn't always have to worry too much about the shard. He just became like Sonic and Shadow, free from boundaries and best of all, he can appear when he can with or without the ME always playing a major force in the plot. He could be resting and willing to help out, fighting Eggman for the shards, fighting Eggman's robots to save a city, or even hanging out with Sonic or whomever he freaking feels like.

I mean seriously, we have an idea that does EVERYTHING we've been asking for. I think that's a ground for celebration.

Honestly, I think we've solved the problem. And I'm one of the most anal members here who keeps shoving it in people's faces about it being something for us to remember. That says a fucking lot.

Edited June 3, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Nepenthe]

Well it the Master Emerald doesn't always have to be shattered at every single interval for starters, it lets Knuckles keep his credibility as a guardian rather than somebody who's too inept to keep track of it, and really who says Knuckles can't stop his journey and help whoever out?

If Knuckles ever slips up so badly that the Master Emerald gets destroyed to the point that recovering it will be his permanent duty, that will definitely be a huge blow to his credibility in light of the fact that he has already slipped up many times before. It would be like the proverbial Chernobyl.

And I feel the same thing that would stop him from helping out in this case is the same thing people insist is holding him back now- "His duty to the Master Emerald is more important than anything else." If that is the case, and we're turning this into a worldwide goose chase instead of a local one, why does the urgency for Knuckles to get them lessen; why is he then allowed to shirk his responsibility? He should be searching for them at all costs.

See that's what kept us resistant to following that idea, but that's ends up being the point. The Master Emerald Shards end up like the Chaos Emeralds themselves, scattered all across the world. But instead of just being something Knuckles just has to find and put together, other characters who would potentially want to use them or keep them could find them and use them for their purposes.

GUN could use them for their mechs. Shadow could use it to enhance his chaos powers. Rouge could just be in it for collecting them. Eggman could use it for his doomsday weapons. If you want, Sonic and Tails could wind up using them for some reason, and that could respark potential rivalries and even add new ones into the fray.

But the Master Emerald shards aren't like Chaos Emeralds when they're scattered around. They've never displayed any actual properties that make them valuable as energy sources because I'm presuming they cannot do anything until put back together, exemplified best by the fact that Angel Island always falls when the Master Emerald's broken, as well as the fact that Eggman completely left it alone in SA2 when Knuckles himself broke it under the knowledge that it would be useless to Eggman. At that point, they're only really just valuable as normal gemstones on the market, meaning only a small group of people would be interested in them (e.g., Knuckles and Rouge). It would not foster any more conflict than what can be had now unless you shoehorned in some basic energetic properties on the thing, but if we're going to be making things up on the spot like this, I would suggest we just get rid of the thing altogether! Retcon the sucker! \o/

Actually, it kinda does. We don't have to use the shards every plot, and in the process of looking for the shards Sonic or some other character like Shadow or the Chaotix, or hell even Silver, could be brought in to assist him or he could be assisting them. Just like how Eggman and folks aren't always after the Chaos Emeralds (and I mean that lightly), they won't always be after the ME shards either.

Yes. It can still be Knuckles home, and his fortress of solitude. He can even use it to store whatever emerald pieces he has or give shelter to friends who need it. Hell, we can go all sorts of ways with this.

Again, I believe the actual shards are useless to most characters on their own, so indeed you would have to shoehorn them in somehow to get Knuckles' part in the plot rolling, i.e., "the characters could come to start helping Knuckles out."

;~; And Angel Island's called that for a reason. It needs to fly, goddammit.

Edited June 3, 2012 by Nepenthe