The Knuckles Topic - Is monkey a Knuckles-butt?

[Kuzu]

Edited June 3, 2012 by The Batman

[Diogenes]

So what would make this time different from the last? How the hell would it get "more broken"? He broke it last time, and was still able to find it in one game. So Knuckles would just hit it harder? Would Eggman just use just some type of fuck me laser?

[azoo]

For the alternative, "non-smartass" response:

So what would make this time different from the last? How the hell would it get "more broken"? He broke it last time, and was still able to find it in one game. So Knuckles would just hit it harder? Would Eggman just use just some type of fuck me laser? Doing that literally contradicts the last two times its fucking happened, why didn't it break into millions and millions of pieces last time?

[Nepenthe]

1) I don't see why it's a problem in the long run. Let's say he would at times regain all of the pieces, and then a story twist was to destroy the emerald again and send it shattered to tons of pieces again. I dunno, I'm mostly seeing this as a method of which Knuckles can "protect" the Master Emerald from everyone else in the world while also not being chained down to one area. He still has a responsibility. But even so, with having this put to a background element, Knuckles has more room to make defining traits for himself on his quest that isn't about being a stiff-moving altar guardian.

[turbojet]

So what would make this time different from the last? How the hell would it get "more broken"? He broke it last time, and was still able to find it in one game. So Knuckles would just hit it harder? Would Eggman just use just some type of fuck me laser? Doing that literally contradicts the last two times its fucking happened, why didn't it break into millions and millions of pieces last time?

[Indigo Rush]

Yeah, changing the topic was a rash split-second decision on my part, late at night, during tiredness. I hope the newer title is less "definite." My apologies.

That being said, now that I've had time to calm down, this really is a situation where people will have to agree to disagree. I mean, we can't logically debate against "I don't like the Master Emerald being here," no matter how much we throw canon history into the fray. At which point, it becomes an opinion on what the issue is... that makes things kind of tense.

My main issue against the other party is the concept of outright removing the Master Emerald for good.

What people think about the Master Emerald is subjective, but what we can do with it is objective, I think. The Master Emerald is not likely going anywhere, so why not do something new with it? It goes back to Blacklightning's Cheese's famous point about the idea of fixing something by removing it. That's not necessarily the best choice in any given situation, and totally removing one of the most recognized objects of power in the series' history is jumping the shark much more than breaking it into pieces again.

EDIT:

Wait. Crap.

Emerl destroyed the Master Emerald (sorry, "a" Master Emerald) in Sonic Battle in the final story. That'd make this theoretical mega explosion the 4th time.

I don't know why, but I blame Iizuka for everything right now.

Edited June 3, 2012 by Indigo Rush

[Nintendoga]

I'm sorry but that picture is really fucking stupid

Pisses me off and it wasn't even directed at me.

[Chooch]

My main issue against the other party is the concept of outright removing the Master Emerald for good.

Edited June 3, 2012 by Chooch

[Kuzu]

No it doesn't. There's no reason to believe the Master Emerald exists in such a way that it can only break up into a certain number of fragments.

Edited June 3, 2012 by The Batman

[Diogenes]

Considering its already happened twice, why not? What would make this time any different than the last two times?

[Kuzu]

Well what's the difference between dropping a plate and repeatedly smashing it with a sledgehammer? Look, I may have gone a bit too far with that picture, but this really isn't a complicated thing. You can break something a little or you can break it a lot, depending on how you go about it.

Ok, I'll admit, I may have jumped the gun on the whole "complicated" bit, but it still doesn't make it any less contrived. So the Master Emerald would just so happen to break into more pieces than usual, and it would just so happen to scatter across the planet, and Knuckles would just so happen to need more time to collect them. If this was a one time thing, then yeah, but this has already happened twice before.

Then you got the problem of this plotline never being really resolved, it would just drag on until it would eventually be forgotten altogether, and Knuckles would be right back in the same boat he's in now. Or it would just stagnate.

[Indigo Rush]

That was never something that I personally suggested. It's not really the other party so much as it is just a select few people.

That idea is just as dumb as breaking it permanently, as far as I'm concerned. I don't like either idea for my own reasons.

Well, I never specifically called you out, bro. I had the impression that removing the Master Emerald was the big alternative being provided. Actually, besides that, I don't recall many other alternatives, just a bunch of criticism.

Pretty sure the Chaos Emeralds are more well known, but whatever.

Big the Cat's probably more well known than the Master Emerald, but people are very keen on giving him the boot. Point?

To be honest, at this point, I don't give a fuck anymore. I just want Knuckles, I could care less about the Master Emerald, my hatred for it has developed into outright apathy for the thing.

Why is the Master Emerald existing such a problem for you? We're working to make it less of a ball and chain for Knuckles, too, man. :/

[Chooch]

Actually here's an idea, how about we talk about Knuckles, ya know the character?

We can't do that because Knuckles and the Master Emerald are clearly the same thing and not two separate entities.

That's why we're in this mess in the first place. People don't think it makes sense for him to function without the Master Emerald's involvement so they try and make up ways to shoehorn him into to the plot while still having him shackled down by the Master Emerald's presence.

You don't even need to do that. You never needed to do that. All you have to do is establish that Eggman's (or throwaway villain's) scheme is ominous enough that it affects everyone in a big way; Knuckles included. It's not even that hard!

It's completely fucking ironic that Knuckles was entirely missing from a game where the entire planet, home to literally everyone and everything, was blown to pieces.

That was the perfect example of a plot that could allow pretty much any character in the series history to be involved and yet all we get is Sonic, Eggman, Tails, and goddamn Amy of all people. No one else.

Edited June 3, 2012 by Chooch

[Kuzu]

Why is the Master Emerald existing such a problem for you? We're working to make it less of a ball and chain for Knuckles, too, man. :/

You say that, but we can't even have a simple conversation about Knuckles without the whole thing going to a debate like this one, its like Chooch said, we treat them as if they're one and the same.

Knuckles never needed the Master Emerald to appear before, so why is it all of a sudden he needs it now?

[Soniman]

It's completely fucking ironic that Knuckles was entirely missing from a game where the entire planet, home to literally everyone and everything, was blown to pieces. Ha, guess that's not a big deal.

Even more ironic considering that Knuckles was willing to ditch his duties due to cake Sonic's birthday

Edited June 3, 2012 by The Groosenator

[azoo]

You see, something like this is exactly why we need a TV show or a manga that actually sticks to the series' script. This, in game, would probably seem like a forever ongoing thing, but with the inroduction of side stories in manga or episodes of a show, there could be all kinds of side adventures about Knuckles searching through lost temples, jungles, canyons, and ancient civilizations in an Indiana Jones-esque style for the emerald shards, possibly with Rouge getting involved somehow and causing a mess in some way or another.

So yeah, I can see where it'd feel like this would go on forever when going in a perspective where there's only the games involved, but it'd be something great if there was more to this franchise than games. But that's branching into a completely different convo altogether!

[#EndyGate]

I'm a bit neutral on that subject seeing as the arguments from both sides are pretty solid

For Diogenes idea, the concept in itself is pretty stable and doesn't really take away from anything in the series, and could potentially give Knuckles and plenty of others a bit of much needed development

Though on the other hand, there are only two people Knuckles has to worry about when protecting the Master Emerald: Rouge and Eggman. The former is mostly harmless and getting it back from her would take all of a level or so, with the latter being the only real threat. (As well as random villain number 47) Now if he were to erase Eggman from the picture, than it would make his job a lot easier.

I say a nice compromise would be for Diogenes' idea to take place over the course of a game or two, and after bringing everything back together he comes to the realization addressed in the paragraph above and just starts kicking robot chassis on a daily basis along side Sonic and the others. This way everybody wins!

[Indigo Rush]

Why can't we talk about Knuckles without bringing in the Master Emerald?

Echidna powerful exciting.

Alone without knowing why in "Angel Island" Island in the sky

Are living defend the huge gem called the Master Emerald.

It is the destiny of the tribe Knuckles, and now is the presence of only able to control the Master Emerald.

Rival of Sonic's friends are fighting. If "wind" Sonic, he is a "mountain" as defined in order to stay in one place.

No-nonsense personality for a one-track mind, there is a gullible side.

Spender of martial arts, and also a treasure hunter. Break the power of the fist punch that is also an intense rock.

Also have special skills such as gliding and climbing wall.

Pardon the moonspeak, but this is Knuckles' official Sonic Channel bio.

You don't go 2 sentences into the first paragraph without seeing his role as the Master Emerald's guardian being mentioned. It's ingrained into his character. Well, ok, maybe we can develop something so it isn't an issue. How has this worked for others?

With Shadow, his initial point of interest was his amnesia; his mysterious past that was eventually resolved and discovered. Shadow moved onto working for GUN (or at least helping them out when needed) and becoming his own free, albeit cynical, person. It took a few terrible games, but we came to a conclusion.

Let's move to Silver. Silver's initial gimmick is coming from the future, which is ruined by some cataclysm around Sonic's time period. Sonic 2006 reset itself, so it was retold in Sonic Rivals. But see, Silver can't come back without there being another time-related plot device, because he is forever tied to the future unless he makes a personal decision to stay in Sonic's era. This puts Silver in a tough spot.

Silver's dilemma is related to Knuckles'. Knuckles' initial story arc was based around the Master Emerald needing to be protected from Sonic and Tails, when he really needed to guard it from Eggman. Sonic Adventure tried to bring Knuckles out by actually blowing it up a little, giving him a mini fetch-quest. Sonic Adventure 2? Same thing, only instead of Eggman breaking it, he did it himself. Obviously it's important to Knuckles, here. Then Sonic Heroes comes around. The only literal mention of the Master Emerald is at the final cutscene, where Rouge teases that she's going to steal it, where Knuckles exclaims "HEY WAIT!" Effectively, he goes "OH CRAP, I FORGOT ABOUT THAT." Shadow's game? No reason explained. Sonic 06? Nada. Sonic Unleashed and Colors? He's back guarding the Emerald, right? Generations? Party time, no need to guard it. Uhm... huh? What happened?

If Knuckles' role was anywhere near consistent, there wouldn't be an issue at all. But it's apparent that for all the canon games he's appeared in, most of them have a reason for him to appear in regards to the Master Emerald. Sonic Channel's official bio clearly mentions his role as the guardian, and that apparently needs to be taken into account. It's part of who he is, and what he does. You can't talk about Silver without mentioning his place in the future, and you can't talk about Blaze without mentioning her place in another dimension. In the same way, you can't talk about Knuckles without his place as the guardian of the Master Emerald. If you want things to make sense, you have to explain why he's there, if you care about story continuity, that is. If not, then this probably isn't the right discussion for that.

What Knuckles needs is a "Shadow" development. Something that puts some finality with his role. Unlike someone's feelings about the past, the giant powerful green rock doesn't just disappear. It's there, it can be used as a threat, so you can't just ignore it. So what can Knuckles do? That's the entire point of the topic. Figuring out a way around this apparent paradox of Knuckles as a guardian, and the desire to see him in a main series game without a new contrived reason every time, or without completely ignoring his duties.

That's why it's so hard to not talk about the Master Emerald when talking about Knuckles. It's like talking about Silver without talking about the future, or talking about Blaze without talking about alternate dimensions. It's part of their development, and it has to be addressed. It can't be ignored or flung away without clever writing. That's why Diogene's initial idea was so appealing to a lot of us: it gives Knuckles the ability to show up without the implications of irresponsibility of leaving the Master Emerald on Angel Island all alone, it lets him do his occupation of treasure hunting, it keeps him guarding the Master Emerald by proxy, so it technically makes everyone happy. But honestly, the only reasons I see others putting forward as to why this wouldn't work is nothing more than "I don't like it, because it's complicated, contrived, it's been done before or I just don't like the Master Emerald." Not only is the complication a non-issue, or the breaking of the Emerald a very different result than the previous games, but when it seems like when we have a clear answer, it's only met with criticism without any alternative ideas. I dunno, it just seems like nobody really wants a solution, or cares about continuity, they just want to see Knuckles in there.

I mean, we could bring the shield thing back, if we wanted.

With that, I guess I'm really done with this, now. This is all pipe-dreaming in the end, and this discussion really has only served to boil everyone's blood, from what I've noticed. No hard feelings across the boards, right?

Edited June 3, 2012 by Indigo Rush

[Badnik Mechanic]

You know... just throwing this out there because for some reason, I keep getting reminded of it the more I read this.

Anyone remember this? Or have any idea who it is?

For those who are not followers of Doctor Who. That would be Rory, Rory the Roman as the Doctor calls him. Putting aside the Rory backstory and the bulk of his storyline, here is a bit about what happens to him near to the end of the first series to star Matt Smith as the Doctor.

Rory is killed, erased from time and existance, but not quite, the Doctor remembers him and Amy finds herself crying at times, but she doesn't know why, it's her love for Rory that is torturing her.

Anyway... following a series of explanations involving TIME, Rory comes back, only as an adroid/robot/human thing (it's a bit complicated). However, he's been living the life of a roman soldier.

A few plot twists later, he ends up guarding the Pandorica which is supposed to contain the most dangerous thing in the Universe... but through a few plot twists and exposition, the woman he loves, Amy is held in there, and he guards it... for over 2000 years.

In the last episode in the series, we learn that Rory has indeed been guarding it for all that time. Theres various newspaper and articles about the Pandorica and the legend of "The Last Centurian." the last roman soldier who constantly keeps watch over the Pandorica. Over the years armies have come and taken the pandorica, kings have taken it, but the soldier was always there watching. One of the more iconic images is a photo taken during the blitz where London is in flames and Rory is pulling the Pandorica away from the flames using a chain.

When the Doctor finds him in 2011, he's now working at the museum the Pandorica is located in as a night watchman/security guard... he's still guarding it.

Now during these 2000 years, Rory has never 'done a Knuckles,' he's never gone out and beaten up a bad guy and taken it back, he just watches it and follows it. He's gone all over the world, following the Pandorica, it started off at Stonehenge, goes all around the world, and finally it rests back in London at a museum. The plot only suggests he steps in if the Pandorica is in danger or at risk of being exploited. He has never taken it back to Stonehenge, but he's still guarding it.

Why do I bring this up?

Well... who does it sound like? Yup... Knuckles. The last of his kind, tasked to guard the deus ex-machina and over the years people have tried to steal/exploit it.

But unlike Knuckles Rory has one difference, the Pandorica, unlike the Master Emerald, does not need to remain in one place. Now... the obvious problem is that the master emerald has to remain in place otherwise the floating island will fall, so it's going to forever be an issue that it needs to remain there.

So what if the master emerald, like the pandorica, isn't tied down to one place, it can remain intact and Knuckles is the guardian, but not so much in a case of 'stay away from it' as much as it's a 'I will step in if they try to exploit it.'

This of course has the obvious problem... the floating island will no longer be flying... .. .. so what? Does it need to remain up in the air? If so, why? Why can't it just be an island? It's lost it's flying powers in several different medias over the years, has it caused a problem? Not really, if anything it opens it up a little more to exploration.

Well anyway, just thought I'd throw out that silimar plot point from the good Doctor since it kept coming into my head the more I read the topic.

[Burnt Ash]

Eh, I was actually on board with Indy's idea on page 7, with the whole shield thing.

[turbojet]

The difference between Rory and Knuckles is that Angel Island is his home. Not just home as in where he sleeps, I mean home where his ancestors once were. Why the hell do you think the place has murals all over it? People lived there. They had an intergrated water system in Hydrocity, or an elaborate perch to see oncoming enemies in Sky Sanctuary and Volcano that had random bridges around that could not be built be by Knucles. Then something happened that caused Knuckles to be the last of his clan where he is left to guard the Master Emerald. No, we are not talking about Chaos. So the place and the Master Emerald has a lot more significance to him than just some movable item. He guards the jewel to keep his ancestral home from falling into the ocean, land mass, whatever it just happens to over at the time. So Knuckles just carrying the emerald around with him is irresponsible despite him not knowing much about his culture, clan, or people. Angel Island is his only link to what he may have had before. The games don't elaborate on this, but it is pretty obvious.

Edited June 3, 2012 by turbojet

[Tiller]

The simplest solution is to take a note from the comics and have the Chaotix or some other obscure characters guard it while he's gone so he can go out and help Sonic or something.

But that feels like a super cop out. The games will never do character development. The most we'll probably get is a quip or something saying he left it to someone else and can help out. Or maybe he just shows up without explanation like Sonic's birthday. He's just there because he's a character...as cool as this brainstorm thread was.

[turbojet]

I would accept that reason except that there are a total of 6 games(5 if you don't count Chronicles and 6 or 7 if you want to count that side remark from Rouge in Heroes, 7 or 8 if you want to count Sonic Battle) predicated on the idea that the bastard is guarding that Emerald. Hell, it was part of his introduction as a character and in every media adaption except for the OVA, he is guarding that damn emerald. I want continuity just like we received in Generations and Sonic 4. Jesus, it is not that hard to come up with a reason for Eggman or any character to be interested in the Master damn Emerald as well as the Chaos Emeralds. Knuckles did not show up in Unleashed, Colors, or the Sonic 4 saga because he had a damn reason not to. He shows up in Generations without any acknowledgement of the Emerald and we are perturbed that the very thing that was intertwined with as a character for 20 years has not been mentioned for nearly a decade. It is lazy as hell writing to just ignore. It is equivalent of Future Trunks just showing up in DBZ stories just to show up for the fan's sake. We also don't like just ignoring him either like what Archie Sonic is doing(They take it a step further by throwing in a bunch of game characters). It is fair to say that we want him in the games, which I am surprised Diogenes even cares because I always thought he hated Knuckles, but be respectful to his character. That is all we ask.

[Indigo Rush]

Okay, crap guys.

Put the Master Emerald into the Special Stage Zone Dimension thing.

The results of the rift or some bullcrap like that keeps the Island floating.

Only Knuckles can teleport it back because guardian.

Okay gosh will that work?

[---]

Who CARES? Who the FUDGE cares?! I don't care if it's a cop-out, put the DANG Chaotix in front of the FREAKING Emerald, get Knuckles in the plot, and call it a freaking day. I WANNA PLAY AS KNUCKLES.