The Knuckles Topic - Is monkey a Knuckles-butt?

[Johnny Boy]

Is it wrong I'm hoping some people from sonic team are reading this?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

If Knuckles ever slips up so badly that the Master Emerald to get destroyed to the point that recovering it will be his permanent duty, that will definitely be a huge blow to his credibility in light of the fact that he has already slipped up many times before. It would be like the proverbial Chernobyl. And I feel the same thing that would stop him from helping out in this case is the same thing people insist is holding him back now- "His duty to the Master Emerald is more important than anything else."

The plot could be made where shit gets so real that everyone tries their damnedest to stop the threat only to get this result as a bittersweet ending. Seriously, this is just giving me more ideas for the story, because the whole point for that situation is that Knuckles failed EPICALLY as a guardian, and this time there's more to be done to make up for it.

If that is the case, and we're turning this into a worldwide goose chase instead of a local one, why does the urgency for Knuckles to get them lessen; why is he then allowed to shirk his responsibility?

He gets to lessen because it's not solely his issue to deal with anymore. Other characters end up becoming responsible for whatever shards they find. It's the same case with the Chaos Emeralds to be short.

But the Master Emerald shards aren't like Chaos Emeralds when they're scattered around. They've never displayed any actual properties that make them valuable as energy sources because I'm presuming they cannot do anything until put back together, exemplified best by the fact that Angel Island always falls when the Master Emerald's broken, as well as the fact that Eggman completely left it alone in SA2 when Knuckles himself broke it under the knowledge that it would be useless to Eggman. At that point, they're only really just valuable as normal gemstones on the market, meaning only a small group of people would be interested in them (e.g., Knuckles and Rouge). It would not foster any more conflict than what can be had now unless you shoehorned in some basic energetic properties on the thing, but if we're going to be making things up on the spot like this, I would suggest we just get rid of the thing altogether! Retcon the sucker! \o/

Then perhaps it is time to make those pieces show their value in this way. If the Chaos Emeralds can serve as the major Deus Ex Machina plot devices, I think it's only fair to give the ME a major share of the pie as well. Give them certain properties that make them viable as energy sources with potential risks, but not too powerful as individual pieces.

As an emerald shard, you don't have to worry about it being used to power a giant laser cannon that could destroy a planet, but you do have to worry about an enhanced robot that's more difficult to take down.

Again, I believe the actual shards are useless to most characters on their own, so indeed you would have to shoehorn them in somehow to get Knuckles' part in the plot rolling, i.e., "the characters could come to start helping Knuckles out."

Well this idea is what makes me willing to let all that happen without me saying shit to criticize it too much. But as I've said it doesn't always have to be involving the shards.

For the most part, we've always argued these things about Knuckles:

• How he should be free to appear
  
• Or how he should keep his duties as a guardian in mind
  

People who want Knuckles to appear can have him do so without people bitching about how he should be guarding the ME, and the ones who usually fussing about how he should be guarding the ME for him to appear now don't have too much to fuss about now that the thing is shattered across the world for him to find.

;~; And Angel Island's called that for a reason. It needs to fly, goddammit.

So then you would rather keep the ME intact and have Knuckles guard the thing on Angel Island then? I though you were in favor of retconning it out?

[SenEDDtor Missile]

So the shattered pieces of the Master Emerald is like the Allspark from Transformers Animated?

...Well as long as there is no special ability in the Sonic world that can draw all of the shards back to one spot like in the Transformers Animated Final episode.

[Nintendoga]

A problem I have with this is you guys are saying that the emeralds can be used to power up Eggman's Doomsday machines and stuff, when previous games have shown that shattered Emeralds are pretty fucking useless when it comes to power. This isn't Inuyasha where the jewel shards are very powerful on their own, It becomes random jewels once it breaks.

And how would Knuckles be free to fight with Sonic and co.? His main duty is to guard and protect the master emerald, and in SA1 +2 he always went after the emerald shards, even to the point where he was gullible into believing Eggman, or refusing to help Sonic because he needed to recover the Emerald Shards. If he was to drop that character trait, one that makes him better defined as a characters since it shows off his loyalty and distrustfulness towards others from being alone, would make him seem OOC. Emeralds are always first, and the "Well the Master Emerald is important in this game" won't work anymore because of the jewel shards being useless. Eggman doesn't want them, even Rouge doesn't want them anymore.

Also making the emerald shards become powerful, is very OP and unnecessary. It would make Chaos emeralds redundant and we need those in the series.

And Angel Island falling, yeah, forgot about that? And while we're at it, remember Chaos? What happens when he comes out the emerald from it being broken? We'll need an explanation for that too. And what if the Master Emerald really does become needed once more in a future title> Is Knuckles gonna fix it then break it up again later?

All in all this is just making things harder then it should be. The idea has many flaws, while not awful or anything, but it doesn't solve anything, and am I the only one who thinks the Topic title is unnecessary?

Here's and idea: Put Knuckles in a game, no ME ever mentioned. See how many people complain about it, because almost nobody will. They haven't before and they probably won't in the future. They just want to play as Knuckles again tis all. and I don;t want to do that as the Emerald Hunter for the rest of the series, especially when that type of gameplay has been criticized in the past.

[Indigo Rush]

Did you ignore what CSS said about the shards being nowhere near as powerful as the Chaos Emeralds, but powerful enough to be used as a strong battery for robots or some crap like that?

And having Knuckles engage in combat against Eggman alongside Sonic and co. when a shard is at stake is certainly a good enough reason.

[Kuzu]

I still say they should just get rid of the thing altogether. We go on and on about how important the Master Emerald is to Knuckles, but what about the Master Emerald itself? What justifies its presence outside of its relationship to Knuckles? The answer; absolutely nothing. Its one of the biggest examples of space filler, and I honestly don't know why it was even created to begin with.

Look at this: The Master Emerald is supposed to be the granddaddy of all of the emeralds right? So why the hell have the Chaos Emeralds had more special abilities added, and have far more connections to the plot? Even Sonic Team know its useless to keep around outside of giving Knuckles an excuse for being apart of the action, and when a character needs to have an excuse to appear, I think there's a problem.

Ok, having a strong sense of duty is major part of Knuckles` character, but does it have to strictly be relegated to just the Master Emerald? Why can't it used for something else?

Did you ignore what CSS said about the shards being nowhere near as powerful as the Chaos Emeralds, but powerful enough to be used as a strong battery for robots or some crap like that?

But its same exact thing. Its nothing new, unique or anything revolutionary. What you described makes them sound like Chaos Emeralds-lite.

[Nintendoga]

Did you ignore what CSS said about the shards being nowhere near as powerful as the Chaos Emeralds, but powerful enough to be used as a strong battery for robots or some crap like that?

And having Knuckles engage in combat against Eggman alongside Sonic and co. when a shard is at stake is certainly a good enough reason.

I didn't ignore, I addressed it earlier, Eggman using the master emerald as a source? How long would this go on for? Eggman has over thousands, if not millions of robots, and the Emerald usually breaks up into 20-30 pieces. For there to be enough shards for all his robots that appear in even one game, would make the shards so tiny that it would be impossible for Knuckles or hell, anyone to see them, which means Eggman could not use them.

You guys are making this harder then it really is. Knuckles has been here long enough that he doesn't need a plot excuse to appear anymore, just like Tails. His personality could allow him to mainly guard the master emerald, but when there's trouble in the world, or if Sonic needs his help, he could temporarily leave to go help out.

The ME does not need to be in a game for Knuckles to appear.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Here's and idea: Put Knuckles in a game, no ME ever mentioned. See how many people complain about it, because almost nobody will.

I'm DEFINITELY going to complain about it if you do that with little to back it, and I happen to be somebody. Games like Generations only got away with it because it fell in line with other ideas along with the fact that Blaze of all characters came from her home dimension to celebrate Sonic's birthday...

That and the whole "flung across time" thing the plot had going on.

They haven't before and they probably won't in the future. They just want to play as Knuckles again tis all. and I don;t want to do that as the Emerald Hunter for the rest of the series, especially when that type of gameplay has been criticized in the past.

Why not take our idea and role with it? Yeah, we know the things that will happen, Angel Island will fall, and all that other stuff. But that's what we want to come with the whole shebang.

With our idea, you don't have to worry about people like us complaining about it every time Knuckles is involved. I've also said that with this idea, the Emerald Pieces don't always have to be involved in a plot for Knuckles to be involved either.

The ME stays around, but with this idea no one's going to make a fuss about it anymore whether the shards are used or not. This way, Knuckles appears regardless of whatever the shards are in the world. Otherwise, if you just wanna retcon the emerald out, then there's still going to be bitching from people like me than it would if you took this idea and shattered the emerald across the world for Knuckles and other characters to potentially find.

TL;DR - with this idea you guys can get Knuckles practically whenever you guys want with no questions asked about the ME from people like me, and I'm not going to be questiong why Knux is off the island not guarding the ME since the ME is scattered across the world and he's seeking them out whether they're in the plot or not.

But its same exact thing. Its nothing new, unique or anything revolutionary. What you described makes them sound like Chaos Emeralds-lite.

But that's the whole point.

Edited June 3, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Nepenthe]

The plot could be made where shit gets so real that everyone tries their damnedest to stop the threat only to get this result as a bittersweet ending. Seriously, this is just giving me more ideas for the story, because the whole point for that situation is that Knuckles failed EPICALLY as a guardian, and this time there's more to be done to make up for it.

So why would this threat be anywhere near the Master Emerald when the Master Emerald has not been anywhere close to relevant in over 11 years? Only Rouge wants it.

He gets to lessen because it's not solely his issue to deal with anymore. Other characters end up becoming responsible for whatever shards they find. It's the same case with the Chaos Emeralds to be short.

It is solely his issue. No one else is obligated to find the Master Emerald shards because the shards cannot do anything on their own and because it's not any of their business anyway, partly because Knuckles is so protective that he won't make it anyone else's business. Yes, I'm sure if the heroes happen upon some, they'll be nice and hand them back, but the Master Emerald's shattered state has never been anyone's concern and this wouldn't change by increasing their quantity.

Then perhaps it is time to make those pieces show their value in this way. If the Chaos Emeralds can serve as the major Deus Ex Machina plot devices, I think it's only fair to give the ME a major share of the pie as well. Give them certain properties that make them viable as energy sources with potential risks, but not too powerful as individual pieces.

As an emerald shard, you don't have to worry about it being used to power a giant laser cannon that could destroy a planet, but you do have to worry about an enhanced robot that's more difficult to take down

If we're free to make up our own powers for the Master Emerald now instead of sticking into the confines of what actual canon has defined thus far- that being that the Master Emerald only has use as an energy source in a completely restored state- why not make up a random incantation that makes it unbreakable and unmovable so we can simply avoid this issue altogether?

Well this idea is what makes me willing to let all that happen without me saying shit to criticize it too much. But as I've said it doesn't always have to be involving the shards.

For the most part, we've always argued these things about Knuckles:

• How he should be free to appear
  
• Or how he should keep his duties as a guardian in mind
  

People who want Knuckles to appear can have him do so without people bitching about how he should be guarding the ME, and the ones who usually fussing about how he should be guarding the ME for him to appear now don't have too much to fuss about now that the thing is shattered across the world for him to find.

Again, I said I was totally fine with the way this would allow him to get off the island for once, but people who find any problems with him shirking his responsibilities will do so whenever he's not doing it. In this instance, when he's not actually finding the pieces, there will be a problem. And it would be exceedingly easy for Sonic Team to fall into the trap of writing it where his venture is mentioned as a mere afterthought ("Yo, I was on my way to find this piece, but I saw you guys looking worried; need some help?"), an excuse for him to join in the fray without Sonic Team actually having to stick to their end of the bargain and make it a relevant facet of his on-going characterization. Again, if the Master Emerald is the most important thing about Knuckles, he should be doing his damnedest to find the pieces regardless of wherever they are and however many there are, meaning we're still not going to see a lot of him without either ignoring the thing or shoehorning it into the plot every single time Sonic Team wants him to be there. The problem is not solved; we've just changed the name of a variable.

So then you would rather keep the ME intact and have Knuckles guard the thing on Angel Island then? I though you were in favor of retconning it out?

I am totally in favor of retconning it and Angel Island off the face of the planet, but if Angel Island's gonna exist, it needs to fly. xP

Edited June 3, 2012 by Nepenthe

[Kuzu]

Why not take our idea and role with it? Yeah, we know the things that will happen, Angel Island will fall, and all that other stuff. But that's what we want to come with the whole shebang.

With our idea, you don't have to worry about people like us complaining about it every time Knuckles is involved. I've also said that with this idea, the Emerald Pieces don't always have to be involved in a plot for Knuckles to be involved either.

The ME stays around, but with this idea no one's going to make a fuss about it anymore whether the shards are used or not. This way, Knuckles appears regardless of whatever the shards are in the world. Otherwise, if you just wanna retcon the emerald out, then there's still going to be bitching from people like me than it would if you took this idea and shattered the emerald across the world for Knuckles and other characters to potentially find.

TL;DR - with this idea you guys can get Knuckles practically whenever you guys want with no questions asked about the ME from people like me, and I'm not going to be questiong why Knux is off the island not guarding the ME since the ME is scattered across the world and he's seeking them out whether they're in the plot or not.

But nobody complained before so why use it? I've never seen a massive complaint about Knuckles and the ME for as long as I've been in the series, in fact you're actually the first and only person I've seen actually give a damn about it in the slightest; almost everyone else I interact with could careless and care more about why Knuckles himself isn't around.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

But nobody complained before so why use it?

No. People have been complaining about it, and for a long time. You've been around here long enough to know the very people who have.

And I say use it because 1) it allows Knuckles to appear whenever, and 2) because it still holds his role as a guardian with some value. I've been anal about the second point and didn't want Knuckles to appear if that wasn't made evident, while others just wanted the former.

This idea DOES BOTH!

I've never seen a massive complaint about Knuckles and the ME for as long as I've been in the series, in fact you're actually the first and only person I've seen actually give a damn about it in the slightest; almost everyone else I interact with could careless and care more about why Knuckles himself isn't around.

Diogenes has also been complaining about it. And this debate has stretched for 5 years to the point that it has influenced some people and spawned this very topic and I couldn't have done that all alone dude even if I was being my loudest. And I also recall you yourself flipping back and forth on this very argument whenever it gets brought up. So don't you dare go telling me that I'm all by myself here when you know that just as much as I do.

And at the same time, whenever this is brought up, we've always had people brainstorming ways to solve this conundrum, am I wrong?

I've been making that complaint due to fans willing to brush aside all of Sonic "Shitty Friends" but the keep Classic cast intact to appear in the games plots ever since Sonic 06's disaster, a complaint I have been making clear several times for several years. And that complaint was to put Knuckles on an equal footing so that people didn't play favorites to the character just out of his seniority of being around during the Classics. This was so that people would look at these things more fairly than "I don't like this character, so he should be killed off" and actually put more thoughts into not just Knuckles, but the other characters' involvement in the plot.

People have been all too willing to put the Classic cast on a pedestal and forgive them if there are any problems with their character, but are all more than happy to roast the newer characters simply because they weren't like the Classic cast without giving them the chance to show their value. Now some people are just going to hate characters regardless, yes that is a fact that I am not going to dispute. But I'll be damned if that stops me from calling out this blatant double standard and hypocrisy over the characters for these very reasons.

Exactly how many times have I been saying this ever since you became a member here? And exactly how many fucking times do I have to keep saying that every time I keep getting confronted with this dilemma over why I do this?

EDIT: Fuck I think I pulled a Diogenes here...lol

Edited June 3, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Tiller]

As much as the games barely get into any sort of character development...this idea also allows Knuckles to have a legitimate chip on his shoulder. His island is down much longer than before. He's failed his duty for the foreseeable future. He'll be grumpy, have a reason to be a bit down on himself and harsh with others. AKA: He won't be taking shit from anybody.

Aw hell who are we kidding. We all know this is just a ploy to give him the perfect excuse to travel the world and eventually pick up this kind of swag in his travels.

Edited June 3, 2012 by Tiller

[Indigo Rush]

I dunno, I really just want to see him in that delicious hat and sunglasses combo in the games.

This is the perfect chance, guys. Don't ruin it with a crappy ME retcon.

[Nepenthe]

Funny how ol' Red was swagged out like that in one of the few pieces of Sonic media that makes absolutely no mention of any Emeralds whatsoever.

It's a sign.

[Indigo Rush]

Funny how ol' Red was swagged out like that in one of the few pieces of Sonic media that makes absolutely no mention of any Emeralds whatsoever.

It's a sign.

That bag.

It could be full of jewels.

Imagine it, Nepenthe... join the green side! We have sugar, lollipops and bulging tumors that beep constantly whenever we're near an Emerald Shard!

But you have to collect them in order, though.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Imagine it, Nepenthe... join the green side! We have sugar, lollipops and bulging tumors that beep constantly whenever we're near an Emerald Shard!

[Indigo Rush]

Um...isn't that a health problem?

I don't think all that sugar is gonna cure that either. lol

[Nepenthe]

That bag.

It could be full of jewels.

Imagine it, Nepenthe... join the green side! We have sugar, lollipops and bulging tumors that beep constantly whenever we're near an Emerald Shard!

[Match]

I'm with Nepenthe in believing this doesn't solve much. It still seems like incredibly roundabout "solution" to a problem that is only considered such by people who assume too much. It is a 'self-fulfilling conundrum' to begin with.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

*sucking on a lollipop* The Master Emerald still needs to go, and I don't care how it goes. Retcon, Eggman destroys it, it's thrown into space, Big swallows it, whatever. It's presence alone is, in itself, the cause of all this convolution,

Well since we're gonna be stubborn about it than compromise over it, I say Master Emerald stays and we make use of it. We can make use of it as a plot device like we do with the Chaos Emeralds, and I see more value in keeping it around that getting rid of it.

I'm finally given a solution that addresses every complaint I've had regarding it and it's connection to Knuckles, and I find it better not to throw away something with that added value to it.

And from here on out, we can just agree to disagree on the issue.

and it would be better to give every cast member- including Knuckles- the whole "the world is in danger so I must leap into action" excuse. Equality for everyone.

And while I'm obviously not against having equality for every character, I'd like to know how you think you would balance the cast for every world saving adventure? Not saying that it's difficult, but I'd like to see how people put their take on it.

Edited June 3, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Tornado]

But nobody complained before so why use it? I've never seen a massive complaint about Knuckles and the ME for as long as I've been in the series, in fact you're actually the first and only person I've seen actually give a damn about it in the slightest; almost everyone else I interact with could careless and care more about why Knuckles himself isn't around.

I'm sorry, but... bullshit. I'd go so far to say as this dismissive attitude towards it is borderline-insulting to the people who do care (and I can explicitly remember this being something CSS has always cared about as long as I can remember), like throwing out "B'aaww Green Eyes" as the go-to response at people who criticize modern Sonic gameplay.

As CSS said, you've been here more than long enough to know that this has been a sticking point with some parts of the fanbase for nigh-on half a dozen years. There were several year spans where Knuckles topics were the pre-Unleashed equivalent to Boost topics, where every time they popped up people knew it would eventually just be the same handful groups of people going over the same points about Knuckles' role in the series to the extent of joking about it (or rolling their eyes).

Edited June 3, 2012 by Tornado

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Er, whoa. Very harsh.

Although if there's anything I can say about this, it's that from hear on out having Tornado on your side is always major gamechanger. And I say that out of years of experience being for and against him on various topics (like that misogyny debate in the Tomb Raider game that I had so much trouble wrapping my head over).

As CSS said, you've been here more than long enough to know that this has been a sticking point with some parts of the fanbase for nigh-on half a dozen years. There were several year spans where Knuckles topics were the pre-Unleashed equivalent to Boost topics, where every time they popped up people knew it would eventually just be the same handful groups of people going over the same points about Knuckles' role in the series to the extent of joking about it (or rolling their eyes).

And the interesting thing is that this came after the Shadow topics and the "Shitty Friends" topic that were the very equivalent of these topics.

...there's always a new subject, isn't there.

Edited June 3, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Nepenthe]

And while I'm obviously not against having equality for every character, I'd like to know how you think you would balance the cast for every world saving adventure? Not saying that it's difficult, but I'd like to see how people put their take on it.

I would use different cast members as I saw fit for the gameplay and story, and it would also be dependent upon whomever hadn't been used in awhile. In short, I'd just do a Round Robin thing like the Storybook games have done and format the narrative and tone to make sure they fit in and have some use. I don't find going that route to be particularly difficult.

[sayi50]

You know how we had ME at different sizes at SA2? Why can't Knux just shrink it to the size of a Chaos Emerald and carry it along with him? That was Angel Island would be an island in the ocean and Knux would carry ME with him.

Other than this little view of mine, I'm with Diogenes here.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I would use different cast members as I saw fit for the gameplay and story, and it would also be dependent upon whomever hadn't been used in awhile. In short, I'd just do a Round Robin thing like the Storybook games have done and format the narrative and tone to make sure they fit in and have some use. I don't find going that route to be particularly difficult.

I find these kind of things to be a bit dependent upon special aspects of the plot while writing some wiggle room to justify other characters being around.

But with you going the Round Robin method, the next question I would have to ask would be what your major plot conflicts would be or would you just make them up as your planning the plots? I always found that to be one of the most major indicators in justifying who does and doesn't get involved. Obviously you wouldn't be too random, but I've always favored things to be episodic with varying connections.