The Knuckles Topic - Is monkey a Knuckles-butt?

[Nepenthe]

Well, the entire plots- both major and minor beats- would depend upon the gameplay, or at least the setting the development team was going for. Even as we've settled into a single gameplay style, the levels and narrative have still been radically different which opens up different casting options. So a game involving political rigmarole or a lot of base infiltration could easily call Team Dark into play and by extension Knuckles if Rouge was allowed to go off and be her smarmy thieving self. A smaller, more self-contained comedic plot like in Colors would be perfect for the Chaotix to get some major action alongside Sonic. An expansive plot involving running after some mystical Macguffins? Why not get the Rogues involved considering they're treasure hunters on their off-days? A storybook title? Anyone is fair game.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

Well, the entire plots- both major and minor beats- would depend upon the gameplay, or at least the setting the development team was going for. Even as we've settled into a single gameplay style, the levels and narrative have still been radically different which opens up different casting options. So a game involving political rigmarole or a lot of base infiltration could easily call Team Dark into play and by extension Knuckles if Rouge was allowed to go off and be her smarmy thieving self. A smaller, more self-contained comedic plot like in Colors would be perfect for the Chaotix to get some major action alongside Sonic. An expansive plot involving running after some mystical Macguffins? Why not get the Rogues involved considering they're treasure hunters on their off-days? A storybook title? Anyone is fair game.

Everyone who isn't Sonic is interchangeable plotwise, that's always been the case for me. I JUST WANT SOMETHING INTERESTING TO CATCH MY ATTENTION AND MAKE ME GIVE A DAMN ABOUT THE CHARACTERS!

But on topic, I'm indifferent to how Knuckles is handled, because there is very little about him that appeals to me atm.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Well, the entire plots- both major and minor beats- would depend upon the gameplay, or at least the setting the development team was going for. Even as we've settled into a single gameplay style, the levels and narrative have still been radically different which opens up different casting options. So a game involving political rigmarole or a lot of base infiltration could easily call Team Dark into play and by extension Knuckles if Rouge was allowed to go off and be her smarmy thieving self. A smaller, more self-contained comedic plot like in Colors would be perfect for the Chaotix to get some major action alongside Sonic. An expansive plot involving running after some mystical Macguffins? Why not get the Rogues involved considering they're treasure hunters on their off-days? A storybook title? Anyone is fair game.

Sounds good, but has a lot of switching up to it, unless extra characters non-essential to the plot are still available as optional characters outside the story? Kinda like Arkham City with the way they use Nightwing and Robin without being involved in the plot.

Sonic would obviously be involved for the most part. But this is where I find a kink in Round Robinning characters as each one would play differently in a meta sense. So if Rouge was involved, but Knuckles isn't, then while players are somewhat familiar with Sonic and can adapt to the changes, they'd have to play Rouge differently from how they played Knuckles (assuming she has a different playstyle).

Then again, I guess that's how you make your sequels.

[The Weeb with No Name]

Plot twist. It was Knuckles who destroyed the master emerald.

[King Frosty]

I just wish that Knuckles could shrink down Angel Island alongside the Master Emerald so that way there'd be no problems with it.

[LATER BUDDY]

Did someone say maybe collecting all the pieces FINALLY to have it just not work? I mean it'd be a depressing anti-climactic ending to that subplot, but maybe Knuckles realizes that it really isn't needed and can move on with his life? I mean it might render him a placement like Silver or something where he kinda just "floats around because my purpose is fulfilled," but at least it would be fulfilled? Plus he could just say he vows to help Sonic on his journey or something *shrugs*. Just an idea to maybe compromise on the "no master emerald, yes master emerald" debate XD. (unless this has been said already. I don't have the energy to sit and read walls of text for much longer today, *shot*)

I like the idea of having Knuckles search for the shards forever though. I might get old after awhile like "oh, he's still doing that?" but I don't think so, and could be argued that Sonic is still chasing after Eggman XD. It's just a plot that can go on forever, and even climax when it feels like. That said, don't have every other game where Knuckles "almost finds it all/does find it all, but then gets taken away or smashed in the end again" type deal.

Pretty sweet idea though. I mean Eggman would be looking for these, which Sonic is looking for Eggman, meaning Knuckles joining constantly would work forever. I even like the idea of the regular Chaos Emeralds acting up funny or something to create plots for Sonic in later releases.

[Diogenes]

Haha, wow, I didn't expect my idea to blow up quite so big as this...

It's an interesting idea for sure, and I like that it would get him off the island permanently, but it doesn't entirely solve the dilemma in my mind. I don't see how it ends any supposed repetition, because really, all Knuckles is doing here is a massive Emerald Hunt; it'll just have an excuse to take place across every game, which fundamentally isn't entirely different or better from a pragmatic standpoint than simply having it continuously break in more quantifiable shards.

The main problem I have with repetition, regarding the emerald breaking/treasure hunting, is that it's the entire cycle repeating. Act 1, the emerald breaks, act 2, Knuckles looks for shards, act 3, the emerald is restored. If you do this on a game-by-game basis, you need to come up with increasingly contrived reasons for the emerald to break, which make Knuckles look like a crappier and crappier guardian if it keeps happening, as well as having to worry about how to tie this in with the rest of the plot, and also eroding the impact of the emerald being destroyed.

But, if you break it just once more, you can have it go out with a bang. Rather than just repeating the same sequence over and over, you're making a major shift in Knuckles as a character. He stops being "Knuckles, guardian of the Master Emerald, sits next to a rock all day (except when he leaves to go race hoverboards)", you've got "Knuckles, former guardian of the emerald, traveling the world for the sake of repairing it and making up for his biggest failure". And unlike breaking it every game, where they need to wrap things up and restore status quo by the end of the game, and thus need to focus on it entirely to do so plausibly, if you break it once it can be more believably be pushed into the background, since it's a much longer-term goal.

It also doesn't excuse him to take a detour into Sonic's own adventures unless the shards are shoehorned into the plot,

I disagree; hell, I'd argue that Knuckles' whole treasure hunting deal wasn't really shoehorned into the plots of the Adventure games. For the most part it's tangential to the core story; it's something that gets him out there and running into other characters, but it doesn't really drive the conflict. In SA, repairing it doesn't really matter at all outside of Knuckles' duty to do so, and the only time it comes close to being relevant to the main plot is Tikal wanting to seal Chaos again, but Sonic shoots that down immediately anyway. And in SA2 it's mostly just driving Knuckles' rivalry with Rouge, which is a B-plot at most, and coincidentally is useful in the end (though it really doesn't change all that much, since the Biolizard keeps the ARK falling anyway). So the emerald shards don't necessarily need to be tied to the main plot; they're a reason to get Knuckles out there where things are happening, and the fact that he is a friend and ally to Sonic and the rest is enough to justify him helping out when they cross paths. And if we establish that Eggman uses shards to power his robots, even better; Knuckles has an instant justified excuse to smash any of Eggman's plans that he comes across.

And what about Angel Island? Is that just in the ocean forever? xD

Yeah, pretty much. That's kind of the one thing I don't entirely like about this, that our Floating Island is no longer floating (on the air, at least). Still worth it, I think.

People always complain that Knuckles not constantly guarding the Master Emerald opens it and Angel Island up to any intruders that may befall it, yet this solution not only does the exact opposite of assuring these two item's safety, but actually compounds the problem.

But that's the beauty of it! Knuckles fails to protect the emerald and is forced to grow as a character, he takes on a new quest to restore the emerald rather than simply sitting around watching it, which puts him in a more believable position to get involved with things that do not revolve around the emerald.

and Angel Island is in even less safe position from invaders, it being on the ocean like a normal island instead of hundreds of feet in the sky.

It is technically less protected, but, it is also far less of a target. Without the Master Emerald, is there any particular reason for Angel Island to be attacked?

If Knuckles ever slips up so badly that the Master Emerald gets destroyed to the point that recovering it will be his permanent duty, that will definitely be a huge blow to his credibility in light of the fact that he has already slipped up many times before. It would be like the proverbial Chernobyl.

Which means it's an opportunity for character growth rather than "Knuckles is a shitty guardian, restore status quo by the time the credits roll".

And I feel the same thing that would stop him from helping out in this case is the same thing people insist is holding him back now- "His duty to the Master Emerald is more important than anything else." If that is the case, and we're turning this into a worldwide goose chase instead of a local one, why does the urgency for Knuckles to get them lessen; why is he then allowed to shirk his responsibility? He should be searching for them at all costs.

It's decentralized. The whole Master Emerald has enough power to change the fate of the world, which justifies it being under heavy guard. Individual shards, I would presume, do not. So it is perfectly justifiable for Knuckles to say "okay I was out here looking for emerald shards, but now Eggman's unleashed a giant monster and has an army of robots attacking the city, so I should probably set that aside for a few hours and take care of this".

But the Master Emerald shards aren't like Chaos Emeralds when they're scattered around. They've never displayed any actual properties that make them valuable as energy sources because I'm presuming they cannot do anything until put back together,

That's not really a well-supported assumption, I think. The island falls when the emerald is gone, which includes when it's been shattered and most of the pieces launched off the island entirely. And pieces of the Chaos Emeralds worked fine as power sources in Sonic Battle, so.

as well as the fact that Eggman completely left it alone in SA2 when Knuckles himself broke it under the knowledge that it would be useless to Eggman.

Eggman just kind of stumbled into that position; he didn't have any particular need for the emerald at that point, but who would pass it up if it practically fell into your lap? But then, when it's broken and scattered around, it's no longer worth his time to track down every piece when he's got a better plan to focus on.

You guys are making this harder then it really is. Knuckles has been here long enough that he doesn't need a plot excuse to appear anymore, just like Tails.

If you don't give a shit why Knuckles shows up, this shouldn't make any difference to you. Edited June 3, 2012 by Diogenes

[turbojet]

HOLY SHIT YES

I hope Ian is reading this as it would solve Knuckles being completely isolated from the comic with a whole slew of characters with him.

[Candescence]

Yeah, pretty much. That's kind of the one thing I don't entirely like about this, that our Floating Island is no longer floating (on the air, at least). Still worth it, I think.

Last I checked, it wasn't even flying for nearly all of S3&K and SA1, so that's hardly a change either.

[Diogenes]

Last I checked, it wasn't even flying for nearly all of S3&K and SA1, so that's hardly a change either.

Well yeah, but it is presumably floating whenever something isn't messing with the emerald, and the good endings of S3&K and the end of Knuckles' story in SA involve restoring its flight. Keeping it indefinitely grounded kind of makes it just another island.

[sayi50]

You know... Maybe Tails can fix something up for the Angel Island's lack of floating in the sky? Like you know, the Babylon Island? Or perhaps Eggman will use this chance and hi-jack Angel Island so he can use it as a floating base in the sky. He takes control of the island while Knux is out there searching for the emeralds and Eggman comes in, builds something underneath the Angel Island to make it float, adds some anti-air defenses just in case the good guys come in with the Tornado and stuff. That way, we'll have an excuse for a Tornado level too.

After Eggman gets beaten in that game, the contraption is kept for the sake of Angel Island's floatiness.

Master Emerald is in pieces all over the world? Check.

Does Angel Island still float somehow? Check.

Of course this will be in the middle of the game so at the start the island will fall into ocean.

Edited June 3, 2012 by sayi50

[Cola]

I forgot where I heard this, but...

Weren't Chaos Drives reverse engineered from the Emerald Shards or something?

Just think of the shards as Super Chaos Drives!

[Soniman]

Fuck, guess I better get of my ass and finally update my sig

Now I wait for Sonic Team to never use this idea, ever..

[Chooch]

This topic title is fucking obnoxious.

Someone change it back, please.

[Nepenthe]

The main problem I have with repetition, regarding the emerald breaking/treasure hunting, is that it's the entire cycle repeating. Act 1, the emerald breaks, act 2, Knuckles looks for shards, act 3, the emerald is restored. If you do this on a game-by-game basis, you need to come up with increasingly contrived reasons for the emerald to break, which make Knuckles look like a crappier and crappier guardian if it keeps happening, as well as having to worry about how to tie this in with the rest of the plot, and also eroding the impact of the emerald being destroyed.

But, if you break it just once more, you can have it go out with a bang. Rather than just repeating the same sequence over and over, you're making a major shift in Knuckles as a character. He stops being "Knuckles, guardian of the Master Emerald, sits next to a rock all day (except when he leaves to go race hoverboards)", you've got "Knuckles, former guardian of the emerald, traveling the world for the sake of repairing it and making up for his biggest failure". And unlike breaking it every game, where they need to wrap things up and restore status quo by the end of the game, and thus need to focus on it entirely to do so plausibly, if you break it once it can be more believably be pushed into the background, since it's a much longer-term goal.

It's this bit that's not making me understand how this changes the problems inherent in the Master Emerald itself other than allowing Knuckles a way to get off the island forever. As a long-term goal, it can easily be pushed into the background entirely which I don't see as a compatible with a character who people claim the responsibility of watching is the most important thing about him, so important that it is now driving his appearances; if nothing, he should be out looking for them at all costs, especially if we're going to reestablish this idea that "Actually, the shards do have power and now every single person, even people who didn't care for the Master Emerald before, wants them for their plans and ambitions." That completely ups the ante of getting it back because now everyone has access to a new power source which, if approached appropriately, could just as easily drive Knuckles into isolation as he goes off on some far off continent trying desperately to scrounge the pieces up and make up for a lifetime's worth of fuck ups- more so than any set of individual instances of it breaking could equate to- and what's to say if he'll be in the area Sonic and co. are when something pops off? Only Plot Convenience, which frankly I don't consider good writing.

But realistically, I don't see Sonic Team doing anything with it other than, "I was looking for this but saw you guys needed help" and never mentioning it again for the rest of the game, which is not character development. If anything, this could more easily turn into the retcon of the thing out of existence I'm rooting for because it's easier to ignore. Tons of pieces and tons of time makes for a lax and procrasinating guardian which I thought was an issue inherent to his characterization.

I disagree; hell, I'd argue that Knuckles' whole treasure hunting deal wasn't really shoehorned into the plots of the Adventure games. For the most part it's tangential to the core story; it's something that gets him out there and running into other characters, but it doesn't really drive the conflict. In SA, repairing it doesn't really matter at all outside of Knuckles' duty to do so, and the only time it comes close to being relevant to the main plot is Tikal wanting to seal Chaos again, but Sonic shoots that down immediately anyway. And in SA2 it's mostly just driving Knuckles' rivalry with Rouge, which is a B-plot at most, and coincidentally is useful in the end (though it really doesn't change all that much, since the Biolizard keeps the ARK falling anyway). So the emerald shards don't necessarily need to be tied to the main plot; they're a reason to get Knuckles out there where things are happening, and the fact that he is a friend and ally to Sonic and the rest is enough to justify him helping out when they cross paths. And if we establish that Eggman uses shards to power his robots, even better; Knuckles has an instant justified excuse to smash any of Eggman's plans that he comes across.

Shoehorning doesn't have to impact something's relevancy in a stories' core plot, rather constantly finding ways for it to have to be mentioned in order to justify saying Knuckles can appear that I consider shoehorning. People are suggesting a whole lot of ideas now where the shards just so happen to fall into the fray, as well as a completely random addition in character motivations in the entire major and minor cast, where now suddenly everyone wants a piece of the pie despite the fact that they didn't give a damn before (which I also consider annoying: We have to change the make-up and properties of an important Macguffin, a recurring location, and add a new motivation or two the entire cast for one single character to be able to appear; really?), and this is basically supposed to drag Knuckles along everywhere. I pretty much consider that the essence of shoehorning, and I don't find it all that palatable.

Which means it's an opportunity for character growth rather than "Knuckles is a shitty guardian, restore status quo by the time the credits roll".

Getting Knuckles into different situations he's never encountered before is an opportunity for character growth whether or not the Master Emerald is involved.

It's decentralized. The whole Master Emerald has enough power to change the fate of the world, which justifies it being under heavy guard. Individual shards, I would presume, do not. So it is perfectly justifiable for Knuckles to say "okay I was out here looking for emerald shards, but now Eggman's unleashed a giant monster and has an army of robots attacking the city, so I should probably set that aside for a few hours and take care of this".

I'm taking the presumption that individual Master Emerald shards do not have any power on their own at all, so regardless of whether it breaks once or fifteen times, there will always be more important issues to Knuckles with Eggman on the loose than the restoration of the Emerald because Eggman is the bigger threat, which is my big kicker: Merely having Eggman blow up something to get everyone's attention is enough to get Knuckles into any game without having to worry about his responsibilities because he is indirectly performing them by opposing Eggman.

That's not really a well-supported assumption, I think. The island falls when the emerald is gone, which includes when it's been shattered and most of the pieces launched off the island entirely. And pieces of the Chaos Emeralds worked fine as power sources in Sonic Battle, so.

I'll give you the Island bit, but I don't buy equating the Chaos Emeralds with the Master Emerald one to one. They're not the same thing, having been shown different properties throughout canon, so I don't think it's fair to assume any qualities that haven't been shown of either.

Eggman just kind of stumbled into that position; he didn't have any particular need for the emerald at that point, but who would pass it up if it practically fell into your lap? But then, when it's broken and scattered around, it's no longer worth his time to track down every piece when he's got a better plan to focus on.

Why not send out or reprogram robots to do it? If the Master Emerald is now suddently worth anything broken into innumerable shards, the 20 to 30 pieces he knows Knuckles are always looking for should also be a huge eyebrow-raiser even if Eggman's got "better plans" on the table. Hell, it should be to the entire cast: that's another exploitable power source floating around for anyone to take advantage of! Knuckles also should have been reluctant to break it, but instead that was his most logical option instead of, you know, merely breaking Eggman's extremely-slowly hovering machine, and he implied it was worthless to anyone seeking a power source when in that state with his following dialogue with Rouge. Again, if they have energetic properties on their own, they have never been written as such so I don't assume that about them.

Edited June 3, 2012 by Nepenthe

[Kuzu]

I'm sorry, but... bullshit. I'd go so far to say as this dismissive attitude towards it is borderline-insulting to the people who do care (and I can explicitly remember this being something CSS has always cared about as long as I can remember), like throwing out "B'aaww Green Eyes" as the go-to response at people who criticize modern Sonic gameplay.

As CSS said, you've been here more than long enough to know that this has been a sticking point with some parts of the fanbase for nigh-on half a dozen years. There were several year spans where Knuckles topics were the pre-Unleashed equivalent to Boost topics, where every time they popped up people knew it would eventually just be the same handful groups of people going over the same points about Knuckles' role in the series to the extent of joking about it (or rolling their eyes).

Exactly. We talk about Knuckles and the Master Emerald as if they're the same person , and I find that pretty goddamn sad that we can't talk about one without talking about the other; The Master Emerald has literally become a ball and chain that if it can't be important, Knuckles himself can't be important. Its like saying we can't have a game centered on Tails unless Sonic is there too.

This is why we can't come to a simple solution, because whenever we talk about Knuckles we have to talk about the Master Emerald, and its part of the reason why I hate the goddamn thing, in part to the fact that it hasn't done shit but be a tie down for Knuckles.

Knuckles was in all three Riders games, none of which mentioned the Master Emerald in no capacity, and while it may not be canon, did the game fall apart because he wasn't guarding it? Knuckles appears in Rush, and while he didn't have a major role, did the universe fall apart because he wasn't guarding the Master Emerald?

[Indigo Rush]

This topic title is fucking obnoxious.

Someone change it back, please.

Gawsh, fine!

As for the "Floating Island" no longer floating, I'm sure they can write some sort of loophole into the story to make it work. Not that it really needs to float, since the Master Emerald doesn't rest there anymore. The point of it being in the sky was so nobody could get to it... if there's nothing there to protect, what's the point?

[Sion-Ta]

Honestly this idea just sounds like its setting up for the most unsatisfying conclusion to a video game ever.

Beginning of the game: "I've got to collect all the pieces of the Master Emerald"

End of the game: "Yup... still haven't collected them" -Roll credits-

[Indigo Rush]

Honestly this idea just sounds like its setting up for the most unsatisfying conclusion to a video game ever.

Beginning of the game: "I've got to collect all the pieces of the Master Emerald"

End of the game: "Yup... still haven't collected them" -Roll credits-

Or, the game opens up with the Master Emerald being stolen, and for the remainder of the game, it stays intact.

Near the climax, Knuckles is forced into a situation where breaking the Master Emerald is the only way to save the day, and with his brute strength, he sends small shards flying across the globe. Rather than the shards be the sole plotpoint of one game, it becomes the setting for a new status quo. Because you end the game this way, it becomes less of a "letdown" and more of a turning point. Like, crap, what happens next?! Will the pieces ever be brought together? Que in explanation from Knuckles that it'd take years to track down everything, and he knew what he was getting into by doing this.

I mean, it would be much more interesting to have Knuckles make this decision in an attempt to protect the Emerald by breaking it, rather than have mean old Dr Robotnik do the deed.

It's an interesting plot development, and I still don't see why everyone isn't on board. I mean, if paper-thin plot points ala Colors and Generations are your thing, then, well... boo. I want some tension in the plot. We haven't had a cohesive episodic arc since Shadow. And man, was that unsatisfying.

[Chooch]

I still don't see why everyone isn't on board. I mean, if paper-thin plot points ala Colors and Generations are your thing, then, well... boo. I want some tension in the plot. We haven't had a cohesive episodic arc since Shadow. And man, was that unsatisfying.

I like how not being on board with such a ridiculous idea just for the sake of Knuckles even making an appearance in a main series game somehow leads to the conclusion that said people want more plots like Colors.

It has nothing to do with that. I just don't like the idea. It's off-putting. It basically makes Knuckles out to be the most worthless guardian you could ever imagine and he more or less has that reputation already because of the two Adventure games and the Genesis series before it!

We solve all Knuckles' problems by reusing a plot device seen in previous games a third time only there is never any resolution and he's left wandering hopelessly around the world for eternity TRYIN'A FIND HIS LOST PIECE? Nah man, get out. I don't like that idea at all.

Edited June 3, 2012 by Chooch

[Kuzu]

Fuck it:

Tl;Dr: Retcon the Master Emerald to just the Chaos Emeralds, I'll explain why later because I just lost the entire fucking rresponse I had.

[Indigo Rush]

From my perspective, it's much less about "welp I messed up, herpy derp" and more along the lines of "this is the only way to protect the Emerald from falling into the wrong hands."

Kinda like what happened in SA2.

But no, the Emerald broke in SA2, and that's baaaad.

Baaad Knuckles.

Sarcasm aside, I still don't see the issue. The only time he "messed up" is when the Emerald broke beyond his control while he was sleeping on the job. The second time this happened, it was his doing, and he had a plan for it. Why can't Knuckles do it one last third time for the same reasons he did it in SA2? It's a bit round-about, and the base concept isn't new, but the treasure trove of possibilities for character development that come about by just this one single solitary change in the status-quo is so immense, that I can't see a flaw with it besides Angel Island not floating up in the sky anymore.

Knuckles is still "guarding" it. Not from being broken, but from falling completely into the wrong hands. When it's broken, it won't have anywhere near as strong of an impact for Eggman to use as he did in previous entries. Knuckles is "treasure hunting" by looking for the pieces on his own time. Knuckles gets screen-time without having to contrive a new screw-up every entry he needs to appear.

You guys throw Riders and Heroes at us for including him without the Master Emerald, and you know what? It was stupid. The Master Emerald was a very important detail in the series mythos prior to Heroes. I'd even grant Adventure 2, if you think it was shoe-horned for no concise reason besides giving him screen-time. Yeah, that one instance was dumb, because it made little impact to the plot.

But now we have a way to make an impact, and it just isn't good enough for some of you? Okay.

What would you suggest? And no, retconning the Master Emerald is not a viable option. That even further removes one of Knuckles' most important developments as a character in the series.

[Nepenthe]

It's an interesting plot development, and I still don't see why everyone isn't on board. I mean, if paper-thin plot points ala Colors and Generations are your thing, then, well... boo. I want some tension in the plot. We haven't had a cohesive episodic arc since Shadow. And man, was that unsatisfying.

Because changing the very fabric of a Macguffin, a recurring location, and every character's motivations and priorities for the sake of a single character to be able to appear is in and of itself not a solution to paper-thin plots, no more than somehow permanently merging timelines would be in order to get Silver to appear more often. That would depend upon Sonic Team's commitment to the idea and their writing abilities (in fact, writing ability is really the only solution to our narrative troubles), and frankly if I had any faith in them to do that right now, we wouldn't be saddled with paper-thin plots in the first place. :|

[Diogenes]

As a long-term goal, it can easily be pushed into the background entirely which I don't see as a compatible with a character who people claim the responsibility of watching is the most important thing about him, so important that it is now driving his appearances

The way I would do it is, it's always going to be important to the character, but it's something that can take a back seat to more immediate problems. Individual shards are not dangerous enough to supplant Eggman attacking right now.

and what's to say if he'll be in the area Sonic and co. are when something pops off? Only Plot Convenience, which frankly I don't consider good writing.

To a certain extent that's the only reason anything happens. And it's certainly no worse to have him cross paths with Sonic when they're both traveling the world as opposed to him just fucking off to be Eggman's delivery boy for no reason.

But realistically, I don't see Sonic Team doing anything with it other than, "I was looking for this but saw you guys needed help" and never mentioning it again for the rest of the game, which is not character development.

If we're just going to assume that Sonic Team is going to fuck everything up, there's no reason even discussing the subject.

Tons of pieces and tons of time makes for a lax and procrasinating guardian which I thought was an issue inherent to his characterization.

The point is that he'd be looking for shards whenever something that isn't more immediately dangerous comes up. When he's out looking for shards and Eggman attacks nearby, Eggman is obviously the more immediate threat, so he gets caught up in that for the length of a game (like, a day or three, at most?) and then goes back to searching for shards.

Shoehorning doesn't have to impact something's relevancy in a stories' core plot, rather constantly finding ways for it to have to be mentioned in order to justify saying Knuckles can appear that I consider shoehorning.

It doesn't need to be mentioned every time. We don't need every game to explain that Sonic is a drifter, since it's an established character trait.

People are suggesting a whole lot of ideas now where the shards just so happen to fall into the fray, as well as a completely random addition in character motivations in the entire major and minor cast, where now suddenly everyone wants a piece of the pie despite the fact that they didn't give a damn before (which I also consider annoying: We have to change the make-up and properties of an important Macguffin, a recurring location, and add a new motivation or two the entire cast for one single character to be able to appear; really?),

Change is scary. Also everything that is suggested is a definite good idea and absolutely will happen, else the whole idea is bunk. Yep. Totally.

Getting Knuckles into different situations he's never encountered before is an opportunity for character growth whether or not the Master Emerald is involved.

Yes. And what I'm suggesting gives him justification to be off the island, where he can get into these situations, without abandoning his existing character traits.

I'll give you the Island bit, but I don't buy equating the Chaos Emeralds with the Master Emerald one to one. They're not the same thing, having been shown different properties throughout canon, so I don't think it's fair to assume any qualities that haven't been shown of either.

They are not the same thing, but they are similar things. It's not a stretch for them to write the fragments of the magical rock to still be magic.

Why not send out or reprogram robots to do it?

Because he's fucking busy. I mean of all games SA2 has Eggman taking matters into his own hands and actually going out to get shit done, who's to say he has the time or resources to devote to something that isn't his current brilliant plan?

and he implied it was worthless to anyone seeking a power source when in that state with his following dialogue with Rouge.

Literally did not happen.

Again, if they have energetic properties on their own, they have never been written as such so I don't assume that about them.

And they've never been written to not have them.

Honestly this idea just sounds like its setting up for the most unsatisfying conclusion to a video game ever.

Beginning of the game: "I've got to collect all the pieces of the Master Emerald"

End of the game: "Yup... still haven't collected them" -Roll credits-

Fixing the emerald is supposed to be a long-term and mostly personal goal, not the driving force of the plot. The core of the story would be stopping Eggman (or whatever villain shows up) (who may or may not be using emerald shards, to one extent or another). This is about on par with saying that SA, SA2, Heroes, '06, and Unleashed were disappointing because Amy wanted to marry Sonic but didn't manage to by the end of the game.

[Kuzu]

You guys throw Riders and Heroes at us for including him without the Master Emerald, and you know what? It was stupid. The Master Emerald was a very important detail in the series mythos prior to Heroes. I'd even grant Adventure 2, if you think it was shoe-horned for no concise reason besides giving him screen-time. Yeah, that one instance was dumb, because it made little impact to the plot.

What was so important about it? It got shattered and taken, and was just a liability overall. How in what way is it important that the series can't seem to do without it like you seem to be suggesting.

But now we have a way to make an impact, and it just isn't good enough for some of you? Okay.

Because its contrived and overly complicated for something so simple.

What would you suggest? And no, retconning the Master Emerald is not a viable option. That even further removes one of Knuckles' most important developments as a character in the series.

No, Knuckles` sense of duty and commitment is character trait of his, the Master Emerald is just an object that he projects this character onto, and he can easily project it on something else. Getting rid of the Master Emerald isn't taking a character trait from Knuckles, you're just giving it better use for something actually worth protecting in the series.