The Knuckles Topic - Is monkey a Knuckles-butt?

[SIXTH-RATE SOMA]

Maybe.

Maybe.

Maybe we could make Knuckles the guardian of the Chaos Emeralds instead? I mean, think about it.

[Burnt Ash]

I like Dio's idea but here's something I just thought of. You know how in Sonic battle it says that Chaos 0 can come out of the ME whenever the world is in danger? Well I was thinking maybe Knuckles can call up Chaos to guard the emerald for him sometimes. I know this idea might be a bit flawed but I think it's interesting.

You know...I kinda like this idea.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Maybe.

Maybe.

Maybe we could make Knuckles the guardian of the Chaos Emeralds instead? I mean, think about it.

Thought about it...no.

I'm not seeing very much substance in this when people keep insisting this because I look at this more as tho people are making a cheap and lazy way just to make Knuckles appear more. He's been made Guardian of the Master Emerald, whereas the Chaos Emeralds are guarded by whoever gets their hands on one. So how about making use of these elements for growth instead altering things just because you want to see X character more. There are plenty of simple ways out there with being cheap about it.

[Burnt Ash]

@CSS

What do ya think about Johnny's idea?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

@CSS

What do ya think about Johnny's idea?

I'd say it's the same thing, it doesn't have an substance explain why whatever's going on is any of Knuckles' business. Heck, to add to it why not summon Chaos to go with Sonic and Tails and let Knuckles stay? (this before we debate about Battle being canon)

That's the thing I'm talking about. Don't bring a character around just to play watchdog and not use them as a character, you might as well not have them around for anything in the first place; summoning Chaos just to watch the ME for Knuckles would be like having Knuckles do nothing more than deliver a letter to Sonic in Sonic 06. So unless that character is going to play more of a role than just to be around and guard something that probably isn't going to play any part in the story, no.

It speaks a lot of laziness to me when someone says "Let X character guard it while Knuckles is with Sonic" and they don't care to use that other character any more than that. I want character's being characters here, not a cheap way to dump someone else's responsibilities on them.

[Diogenes]

I really don't like the Chaos idea. For one thing, Chaos has no real reason to guard the emerald, or to do much of anything anymore. Yes, he popped up to do...something in Battle, but it was weird and forced there, and it's going to be weird and forced if they did it again. Chaos protected the shrine in the past because the chao lived there, not for the sake of the emerald(s), so I can't imagine why he'd start caring about them now.

Second, it doesn't really keep the Master Emerald close to Knuckles as a character; it's a way to pass off the responsibility onto someone else. He may still nominally be its guardian, but if he never actually has to take action to protect it, if he's never inconvenienced by it, if he can just say "well fuck it, guard dog's there" and do whatever...why bother keeping it? Get rid of the damn thing, it's not doing anything for his character anymore.

[SIXTH-RATE SOMA]

Thought about it...no.

I'm not seeing very much substance in this when people keep insisting this because I look at this more as tho people are making a cheap and lazy way just to make Knuckles appear more. He's been made Guardian of the Master Emerald, whereas the Chaos Emeralds are guarded by whoever gets their hands on one. So how about making use of these elements for growth instead altering things just because you want to see X character more. There are plenty of simple ways out there with being cheap about it.

Let's posit what we know about the Master Emerald before proceeding. From my recollection, the Master Emerald is:

a. The bestest emerald ever which is way better than the Chaos Emeralds to the point where it can do everything the Chaos Emeralds can and better, and holds dominion over the other Emeralds such as acting as-

b. A giant ON/OFF switch for the Chaos Emeralds.

Not only does (or rather should, given its capabilities) it render the Chaos Emeralds redundant upon entering a given situation, but if the SA games are to be believed, then Knuckles, Tikal, and Chaos are the only ones capable of properly controlling this incredible power.* Thus, our heroes, if we assume they have an inkling of intelligence, are both left with a enormous power source and a way to neutralize any Chaos Emeralds that fall into evil hands. This leaves Team Sonic with a disproportionate advantage in any given struggle against the rogue's gallery unless either the Master Emerald is shattered all the freaking time or Knuckles is otherwise incapacitated repeatedly. If left unchecked, it becomes a giant green "I Win" button for the good guys.

While naturally it is of pivotal importance to this topic to find a way to reconcile the Master Emerald's role in the series given its relationship with Knuckles, there remains the underlying problem of its immense game-breaker status that must be addressed. Dio's solution, in a way, brings attention to the problem that others have brought up: the Master Emerald is such a great power that it could easily turn the series into The Knuckles Show, Guest Starring Sonic if ever expounded upon. Knuckles' close association with the Master Emerald and the ME's own power level and mass distribution prohibit them from remaining out of any plot in such a circumstance. As is, it is a plot that would eat other plots alive. This is why, if Knuckles was the protagonist, it would be a brilliant overarching story tying the others together, but as we have it Sonic has jack-**** to do with the ME outside of Chaos Emerald-related dealings and as such he would become almost secondary to this grand plot.

In conclusion, if the Master Emerald is to become any sort of big part of the series, we must either limit its previous abilities ("it can only be used when Sozen's Comet passes over," etc.), incapacitate Knuckles regularly, or fashion Knuckles into our main protagonist, else we are left with a story-consuming black hole.

Putting Knuckles in charge of the Chaos Emeralds instead sidesteps a good number of these issues in rather simple fashion. Multiple villains have shown their fondness for using Chaos Emeralds, and they are not tied to any particular character, and thus they easily foil the problem with over-power and enforced protagonism. This change of careers need not come with a drop in characterization, either. It gives Knuckles a reason to stick around with Sonic (seeing as how they seem to pop up whenever he shows his face), a source of guilt (in his failings to keep them out of vile hands), an additional source of rivalry/jealousy with Sonic (why do they work for him but not me etc.), and in tracking the Emeralds Knuckles can learn a bit more about his ancestors from great minds around the world (Knuckles meets Prof. Pickle!). Is it too simple a solution? Perhaps, but being boring hasn't stopped many things from being practical. Is it a perfect solution? By no means, as it could easily become annoying and repetitive with bad writing. But it gives a good reason as to why Knuckles can be a part of the series without being a slacker and without breaking all manners of tension.

In conclusion, if we can rid ourselves of the giant green "I Win" button we've already solved half the problem. Most everything else is repairing necessary narrative casualties. Go buy a steady house, don't spend years trying to repair your own unstable one.

Sorry for rambling and probably making no sense, I'm sick and needed something to do.

*EDIT: Eggman can use it to power Death Eggs and the like, but ultimately he could've done that with the Chaos Emeralds had the story required them instead, as there aren't enough unique properties with either the ME or the CEs for this to make any real narrative difference.

Edited June 17, 2012 by Soma

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Let's posit what we know about the Master Emerald before proceeding. From my recollection, the Master Emerald is:

a. The bestest emerald ever which is way better than the Chaos Emeralds to the point where it can do everything the Chaos Emeralds can and better, and holds dominion over the other Emeralds such as acting as-

b. A giant ON/OFF switch for the Chaos Emeralds.

Not only does (or rather should, given its capabilities) it render the Chaos Emeralds redundant upon entering a given situation, but if the SA games are to be believed, then Knuckles, Tikal, and Chaos are the only ones capable of properly controlling this incredible power.* Thus, our heroes, if we assume they have an inkling of intelligence, are both left with a enormous power source and a way to neutralize any Chaos Emeralds that fall into evil hands. This leaves Team Sonic with a disproportionate advantage in any given struggle against the rogue's gallery unless either the Master Emerald is shattered all the freaking time or Knuckles is otherwise incapacitated repeatedly. If left unchecked, it becomes a giant green "I Win" button for the good guys.

That's very true...except for one thing. The same thing could already be said for the Chaos Emeralds as an "I win" button.

Also, you remember how Eggman beat Super Sonic by sapping the energy from the Chaos Enerald right out of his body? Given that the Master Emerald is an even more supremely powerful emerald, and that he's used it's energy before, that "I win" button could be rendered null and void if Eggman decided to use that tactic if they ever thought about using it.

So while they could still use it, like they use Super Sonic as a general menas to solve problems, they could end up having it bite them back if they're not careful.

While naturally it is of pivotal importance to this topic to find a way to reconcile the Master Emerald's role in the series given its relationship with Knuckles, there remains the underlying problem of its immense game-breaker status that must be addressed. Dio's solution, in a way, brings attention to the problem that others have brought up: the Master Emerald is such a great power that it could easily turn the series into The Knuckles Show, Guest Starring Sonic if ever expounded upon. Knuckles' close association with the Master Emerald and the ME's own power level and mass distribution prohibit them from remaining out of any plot in such a circumstance. As is, it is a plot that would eat other plots alive. This is why, if Knuckles was the protagonist, it would be a brilliant overarching story tying the others together, but as we have it Sonic has jack-**** to do with the ME outside of Chaos Emerald-related dealings and as such he would become almost secondary to this grand plot.

So basically, using the Master Emerald could give Knuckles more development as a character. And yet you'll sacrifice that in favor of throwing this to the side or be rid of it in favor of the Chaos Emeralds?

In conclusion, if the Master Emerald is to become any sort of big part of the series, we must either limit its previous abilities ("it can only be used when Sozen's Comet passes over," etc.), incapacitate Knuckles regularly, or fashion Knuckles into our main protagonist, else we are left with a story-consuming black hole.

Considering that the Chaos Emeralds have no limits themselves, it would be rather ridiculous to put limits on something that is suppose to be exactly like them but more powerful. We can give it flaws that relate to how powerful it is - such as it can cause natural disasters if misused, or it's energy can be completely sapped, along with how less powerful it is when broken into pieces - but I think putting limits on something like this weakens its name as a Master Emerald.

Incapacitating Knuckles regularly isn't really called for either, because we don't have to use Knuckles regularly. We can use him now and then or not at all for any given plot, but it doesn't call for him to be incapacitated when we can still use him to many degrees or leave him absent for the sake of keeping him fresh. Nor is making Knuckles into our main protagonist called for either, and I don't you're even putting this much thought into things when you say that because we never needed to do that in the first place just because he guards the damn thing. That shouldn't even be a solution to begin with.

You want to keep it from being a story consuming black hole, how about you use the character that the plot element when necessary and not just because you want them around. In fact that was part of the exercise I was having with Nepenthe earlier in how to make him involved.

Putting Knuckles in charge of the Chaos Emeralds instead sidesteps a good number of these issues in rather simple fashion. Multiple villains have shown their fondness for using Chaos Emeralds, and they are not tied to any particular character, and thus they easily foil the problem with over-power and enforced protagonism. This change of careers need not come with a drop in characterization, either. It gives Knuckles a reason to stick around with Sonic (seeing as how they seem to pop up whenever he shows his face), a source of guilt (in his failings to keep them out of vile hands), an additional source of rivalry/jealousy with Sonic (why do they work for him but not me etc.), and in tracking the Emeralds Knuckles can learn a bit more about his ancestors from great minds around the world (Knuckles meets Prof. Pickle!). Is it too simple a solution? Perhaps, but being boring hasn't stopped many things from being practical. Is it a perfect solution? By no means, as it could easily become annoying and repetitive with bad writing. But it gives a good reason as to why Knuckles can be a part of the series without being a slacker and without breaking all manners of tension.

Except putting Knuckles in charge of the Chaos Emeralds actually makes them tied to a particular character, dude. And that's exactly what I do not want for them. On top of that, this is still reeking of "Let's have Knuckles hang around with Sonic" instead of being his own character. I'm not adverse to Knuckles and Sonic tag-teaming from time to time and hanging out, but if that's the main thing want to role with, then the idea is a no-go with me. Knuckles doesn't need to stick around with Sonic; he can, but he doesn't need to all the time.

And it's not like you couldn't explore Knuckles ancestors with the freaking Master Emerald. Again, you're throwing it away for nothing here. In fact, one could say you'd end up causing several other potential problems in doing this.

In conclusion, if we can rid ourselves of the giant green "I Win" button we've already solved half the problem. Most everything else is repairing necessary narrative casualties. Go buy a stable house, don't spend years trying to repair your own unstable one.

Or how about you find someone who knows how to repair a stable house and teach you the ways to maintain it? Even better, have that guy teach you how to improve it instead of throwing it away just because it became unstable.

You don't throw away something just because it's unstable. You fucking FIX IT! And this whole thing isn't broken beyond repair, it's just people don't want to bother with fixing it and want to take the lazy way out. It would save you plenty of problems if you do that instead of getting rid of it. In this case, doing so could add more benefits to the table when we actually make use of it.

*EDIT: Eggman can use it to power Death Eggs and the like, but ultimately he could've done that with the Chaos Emeralds had the story required them instead, as there aren't enough unique properties with either the ME or the CEs for this to make any real narrative difference.

Tell ya what, I'll just make this simple here.

I don't want to get rid of the Master Emerald just because people find it a problem. I want to use and explore it as a device. Anything you say that tells me "Let's get of the Master Emerald because it causes these problems" will be something I will ALWAYS say no to, because unlike some people I happen to see some major value in it as I've made clear for several years since I vocalized this debacle.

Edited June 17, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[tenchibr]

Maybe it is time for Knuckles to have his own game. Let Sonic and Eggman fight by themselves; far away, in the Floating Island, Knuckles can feel the ME talking to him that it's time he learned of his past (parents, echidna race), after all, he didn't just came out of nowhere, did he?

Knuckles starts by exploring the island, finding out its secrets, and when he finds that the ME that he protects so much is the cause of the fall of the MODERN echidna race (not Tikal's), the ME responds by Chaos Controlling Knuckles into the past, and let him find out the truth for himself.

And there you go, a whole game for Knuckles, and the ME becomes the enemy. He meets his parents, he meets himself as a kid, and you get to see the areas in Sonic 3 before they were corrupted by Eggman (Angel Island Zone, Hydrocity, and so on...)

Edited June 17, 2012 by tenchibr

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

That's actually an interesting idea. Not keen on making the Master Emerald the enemy in the plot, but still and interesting idea nonetheless.

Might even be a good way to make the Nocturnus relevant in away...

Yeah, I said "Nocturnus". Bite me, haters.

But it makes Knuckles just as developed as Shadow. Of course, who knows how people would take the plot since it's pretty much and origin story.

Edited June 17, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[tenchibr]

That's actually an interesting idea. Not keen on making the Master Emerald the enemy in the plot, but still and interesting idea nonetheless.

Might even be a good way to make the Nocturnus relevant in away...

Yeah, I said "Nocturnus". Bite me, haters.

But it makes Knuckles just as developed as Shadow. Of course, who knows how people would take the plot since it's pretty much and origin story.

Ah ha, well that's the whole point of the game. Why would the ME be so evil like I said so? It could be possessed or just misunderstood.

I believe that it's time for Super Knuckles to return, as well as the possibility of him changing the past and saving his family, and then, guess...

Oh yeah, that's right; his family can become Guardians of the ME like he is. Or maybe, they already were in the past and with the ME issue solved, they can now watch alongside Knuckles. Knuckles learns that his days of being alone are over, and that it's OK to go adventuring with Sonic, not only for the sake of the friendship, but also because he has his family watching over it.

Keyword is OK, in other words... He doesn't HAVE to, but the opportunity to allow him in ANY future games is there, as long as it's not abused.

Edited June 17, 2012 by tenchibr

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Ah ha, well that's the whole point of the game. Why would the ME be so evil like I said so? It could be possessed or just misunderstood.

I'd rather it not be evil. It has been spoken to as if it were sentient so maybe it wants to show Knuckles more of the tragedies of his ancestors. Either way, I find it to be a interesting idea to explore.

I believe that it's time for Super Knuckles to return, as well as the possibility of him changing the past and saving his family, and then, guess...

This however, I'm not exactly sure about doing. It's crossing into a bit of a murky territory of fixing things via time travel and I'm not sure Knuckles should be the one to change the past than he should learn of it and keep that on record. That just depends on how it's done, but still it's something to be careful of.

Oh yeah, that's right; his family can become Guardians of the ME like he is. Or maybe, they already were in the past and with the ME issue solved, they can now watch alongside Knuckles. Knuckles learns that his days of being alone are over, and that it's OK to go adventuring with Sonic, not only for the sake of the friendship, but also because he has his family watching over it.

Keyword is OK, in other words... He doesn't HAVE to, but the opportunity to allow him in ANY future games is there, as long as it's not abused.

Meh, strays closer towards how Archie have with their echidna characters. I'm a bit mixed on it as I'd like to use Nocturnus clan from Chronicles instead.

[Kuzu]

Let's posit what we know about the Master Emerald before proceeding. From my recollection, the Master Emerald is:

a. The bestest emerald ever which is way better than the Chaos Emeralds to the point where it can do everything the Chaos Emeralds can and better, and holds dominion over the other Emeralds such as acting as-

b. A giant ON/OFF switch for the Chaos Emeralds.

Not only does (or rather should, given its capabilities) it render the Chaos Emeralds redundant upon entering a given situation, but if the SA games are to be believed, then Knuckles, Tikal, and Chaos are the only ones capable of properly controlling this incredible power.* Thus, our heroes, if we assume they have an inkling of intelligence, are both left with a enormous power source and a way to neutralize any Chaos Emeralds that fall into evil hands. This leaves Team Sonic with a disproportionate advantage in any given struggle against the rogue's gallery unless either the Master Emerald is shattered all the freaking time or Knuckles is otherwise incapacitated repeatedly. If left unchecked, it becomes a giant green "I Win" button for the good guys.

While naturally it is of pivotal importance to this topic to find a way to reconcile the Master Emerald's role in the series given its relationship with Knuckles, there remains the underlying problem of its immense game-breaker status that must be addressed. Dio's solution, in a way, brings attention to the problem that others have brought up: the Master Emerald is such a great power that it could easily turn the series into The Knuckles Show, Guest Starring Sonic if ever expounded upon. Knuckles' close association with the Master Emerald and the ME's own power level and mass distribution prohibit them from remaining out of any plot in such a circumstance. As is, it is a plot that would eat other plots alive. This is why, if Knuckles was the protagonist, it would be a brilliant overarching story tying the others together, but as we have it Sonic has jack-**** to do with the ME outside of Chaos Emerald-related dealings and as such he would become almost secondary to this grand plot.

In conclusion, if the Master Emerald is to become any sort of big part of the series, we must either limit its previous abilities ("it can only be used when Sozen's Comet passes over," etc.), incapacitate Knuckles regularly, or fashion Knuckles into our main protagonist, else we are left with a story-consuming black hole.

Putting Knuckles in charge of the Chaos Emeralds instead sidesteps a good number of these issues in rather simple fashion. Multiple villains have shown their fondness for using Chaos Emeralds, and they are not tied to any particular character, and thus they easily foil the problem with over-power and enforced protagonism. This change of careers need not come with a drop in characterization, either. It gives Knuckles a reason to stick around with Sonic (seeing as how they seem to pop up whenever he shows his face), a source of guilt (in his failings to keep them out of vile hands), an additional source of rivalry/jealousy with Sonic (why do they work for him but not me etc.), and in tracking the Emeralds Knuckles can learn a bit more about his ancestors from great minds around the world (Knuckles meets Prof. Pickle!). Is it too simple a solution? Perhaps, but being boring hasn't stopped many things from being practical. Is it a perfect solution? By no means, as it could easily become annoying and repetitive with bad writing. But it gives a good reason as to why Knuckles can be a part of the series without being a slacker and without breaking all manners of tension.

In conclusion, if we can rid ourselves of the giant green "I Win" button we've already solved half the problem. Most everything else is repairing necessary narrative casualties. Go buy a steady house, don't spend years trying to repair your own unstable one.

Sorry for rambling and probably making no sense, I'm sick and needed something to do.

*EDIT: Eggman can use it to power Death Eggs and the like, but ultimately he could've done that with the Chaos Emeralds had the story required them instead, as there aren't enough unique properties with either the ME or the CEs for this to make any real narrative difference.

You know this can rectified just by relegating the Master Emerald to remaining on Angel Island at all times, I mean the island falls without it right? So..isn't that kind of a bad thing? Just emphasize "Yo, if the Emerald moves too far from the island, it falls to the ground" like maybe there's a city underneath or something.

[SIXTH-RATE SOMA]

That's very true...except for one thing. The same thing could already be said for the Chaos Emeralds as an "I win" button.

The key here though, comrade, is that the Chaos Emeralds are much more easily exploitable by both sides. You can have a more or less even match if both sides possess some Chaos Emeralds, but only one can have the ME. And typically, from what I have seen in the main series, that one almost always works for the good guys. Hence problem.

Also, you remember how Eggman beat Super Sonic by sapping the energy from the Chaos Enerald right out of his body? Given that the Master Emerald is an even more supremely powerful emerald, and that he's used it's energy before, that "I win" button could be rendered null and void if Eggman decided to use that tactic if they ever thought about using it.

Unleashed's plot in general is rather odd if we take into account the abilities of the ME. We have been shown in cases (like at the end of SA2) that it can restore the energy-drained CEs abilities with some help from Knuckles. Come Unleashed, no-one thinks to take the power-drained lumps of rock to Knuckles to fix up. And more to the point, it's only been demonstrated that a select few can use the ME beyond the basic "doomsday plot power" thing. Eggman has yet to show any prowess with such ability.

So while they could still use it, like they use Super Sonic as a general means to solve problems, they could end up having it bite them back if they're not careful.

It's probably my own thick-headedness, but I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here, comrade.

So basically, using the Master Emerald could give Knuckles more development as a character. And yet you'll sacrifice that in favor of throwing this to the side or be rid of it in favor of the Chaos Emeralds?

Actually, in a rather odd turn of events, it would give Knuckles too much screen time.

Think of it this way. What if in X-Men it was revealed that Wolverine admantium skeleton held immense power, and that Magneto wanted said power so he could... rule the world or rewrite reality or whatever. Sure, Magneto would still spar with Xavier now and then, but it suddenly becomes Wolverine upon which the entire series hangs. In essence, holding the MacGuffin puts him at the center, and all else doesn't matter as much because Wolverine's actions matter a whole lot more.

Giving Knuckles the CEs to handle instead lets him both show up often (and not always with Sonic, as he's got his own goals) and keeps him from getting too big for his britches. It lets him go outside and not be the center of attention.

Considering that the Chaos Emeralds have no limits themselves, it would be rather ridiculous to put limits on something that is suppose to be exactly like them but more powerful. We can give it flaws that relate to how powerful it is - such as it can cause natural disasters if misused, or it's energy can be completely sapped, along with how less powerful it is when broken into pieces - but I think putting limits on something like this weakens its name as a Master Emerald.

Putting a limit on the ME doesn't exactly mean it has to be weaker. A limit can be something like being triggered only at a certain time or place or something like that (hence Sozen's Comet). For example, if the Gaang had Sozen's Comet to rely on all year round, they could just waltz in, kick Ozai royal posterior, and walk out. No contest. However, as Sozen's Comet only come once a year(?), it gives our heroes a bit of a challenge. Sozen's Comet is still quite a powerful tool, but it has other drawbacks that keep it from being game-breaking. Am I being clear?

1. Incapacitating Knuckles regularly isn't really called for either, because we don't have to use Knuckles regularly. We can use him now and then or not at all for any given plot, but it doesn't call for him to be incapacitated when we can still use him to many degrees or leave him absent for the sake of keeping him fresh. 2. Nor is making Knuckles into our main protagonist called for either, and I don't you're even putting this much thought into things when you say that because we never needed to do that in the first place just because he guards the damn thing. That shouldn't even be a solution to begin with.

1. This paints Sonic and Co. in a negative light, though. It says to me, "we could save the world the easy way, but this way's more fun!", which quite the opposite of heroic, if I do say so myself.

2. In the Dioverse scenario, it's ultimately Knuckles who drives the plot by both being tied to the major MacGuffin and being one of the few capable of controlling it. Sonic almost becomes a side-kick in the larger scope of things, just out of his general lack of relevance to the ginormo arc.

You want to keep it from being a story consuming black hole, how about you use the character that the plot element when necessary and not just because you want them around. In fact that was part of the exercise I was having with Nepenthe earlier in how to make him involved.

Yes. I'm sorry if I ever implied otherwise, but heck yes I only want him in the story when he matters. In a perfect world, the Chaos Emeralsds aren't the center of every plot. It's just, they've hung around for so long that we've begun to treat them like they are. The Chaos Emeralds themselves need to take breaks every once in a while.

Except putting Knuckles in charge of the Chaos Emeralds actually makes them tied to a particular character, dude. And that's exactly what I do not want for them. On top of that, this is still reeking of "Let's have Knuckles hang around with Sonic" instead of being his own character. I'm not adverse to Knuckles and Sonic tag-teaming from time to time and hanging out, but if that's the main thing want to role with, then the idea is a no-go with me. Knuckles doesn't need to stick around with Sonic; he can, but he doesn't need to all the time.

I hope I've explained my stance on most of this thus far, but as to the first point, dur hur I'm a moron. I need more sleep haha.

And it's not like you couldn't explore Knuckles ancestors with the freaking Master Emerald. Again, you're throwing it away for nothing here. In fact, one could say you'd end up causing several other potential problems in doing this.

If you want to give Knuckles some good amount of backstory and have the ME around, there aren't too many avenues or opportunities to learn outside of Angel Island itself, which just puts us back where we started. You could do this and still come out with a reasonable story, but ultimately that might be better suited to a spin-off of some sort. Call it Knuckloid Prime. Make millions.

Or how about you find someone who knows how to repair a stable house and teach you the ways to maintain it? Even better, have that guy teach you how to improve it instead of throwing it away just because it became unstable.

You don't throw away something just because it's unstable. You flooping FIX IT! And this whole thing isn't broken beyond repair, it's just people don't want to bother with fixing it and want to take the lazy way out. It would save you plenty of problems if you do that instead of getting rid of it. In this case, doing so could add more benefits to the table when we actually make use of it.

You look in the ceiling and see a hole the size of a ping-pong ball. I see a hole the size of Nebraska.

Tell ya what, I'll just make this simple here.

I don't want to get rid of the Master Emerald just because people find it a problem. I want to use and explore it as a device. Anything you say that tells me "Let's get of the Master Emerald because it causes these problems" will be something I will ALWAYS say no to, because unlike some people I happen to see some major value in it as I've made clear for several years since I vocalized this debacle.

So you're telling me I could give you the best possible answer for such a situation as ours (not saying I have), and you would reject it out of hand should it deal with shafting the ME? I'm sorry, comrade, that's not being loyal or proactive, that's just foolhardy. The sky does not turn forest green if you believe it hard enough. The truth is the truth, no matter how you look at it.

Edited June 17, 2012 by Soma

[Johnny Boy]

That's actually an interesting idea. Not keen on making the Master Emerald the enemy in the plot, but still and interesting idea nonetheless.

Might even be a good way to make the Nocturnus relevant in away...

Yeah, I said "Nocturnus". Bite me, haters.

But it makes Knuckles just as developed as Shadow. Of course, who knows how people would take the plot since it's pretty much and origin story.

I agree. And this would be a perfect way to re-introduce the nocturnus tribe since the chronicles sequel is most likely canned. Heck, Shade can probably live with knuckles on Angel Island at the end of the game. And as a bonus we'll get to see shipping wars between Knuxade and Knuxouge fangirls

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

The key here though, comrade, is that the Chaos Emeralds are much more easily exploitable by both sides. You can have a more or less even match if both sides possess some Chaos Emeralds, but only one can have the ME. And typically, from what I have seen in the main series, that one almost always works for the good guys. Hence problem.

Well here's some easy solutions to that problem:

-Don't use the thing in every plot

-Make the ME incapable of solving the problem on its own

-Make it the cause of a catastrophe

And those three are just off the top of my head. You're making the problem more complex than it really is.

Unleashed's plot in general is rather odd if we take into account the abilities of the ME. We have been shown in cases (like at the end of SA2) that it can restore the energy-drained CEs abilities with some help from Knuckles. Come Unleashed, no-one thinks to take the power-drained lumps of rock to Knuckles to fix up. And more to the point, it's only been demonstrated that a select few can use the ME beyond the basic "doomsday plot power" thing. Eggman has yet to show any prowess with such ability.

First off, stick to the point. Unleashed's plot has absolutely nothing to do with what I'm talking about, and while I would be more than happy to point out everything wrong you just said here that's really for another debate.

My point is that we don't have to worry about the ME being an "I win" tool for the heroes. Super Sonic was always the heroes' "I win" tool and yet Eggman managed to beat it by sapping the energy from him and the Chaos Emeralds. Eggman could very well do the same to the ME to keep it from being used against him in the same way.

Actually, in a rather odd turn of events, it would give Knuckles too much screen time.

Think of it this way. What if in X-Men it was revealed that Wolverine admantium skeleton held immense power, and that Magneto wanted said power so he could... rule the world or rewrite reality or whatever. Sure, Magneto would still spar with Xavier now and then, but it suddenly becomes Wolverine upon which the entire series hangs. In essence, holding the MacGuffin puts him at the center, and all else doesn't matter as much because Wolverine's actions matter a whole lot more.

It would be better if you had more of an actual example for that instead of a hypothetical. And to that luck, and example would be the Scarlet Witch qnd also Professor Xaivier who did exactly what your talking about. More fittingly they got a large degree of focus for this, and so I'm not seeing the problem in that regard.

Giving Knuckles the CEs to handle instead lets him both show up often (and not always with Sonic, as he's got his own goals) and keeps him from getting too big for his britches. It lets him go outside and not be the center of attention.

And yet you could do exactly that with the ME and leave the CE ithe responsibility for whomever gets their hands on them.

Putting a limit on the ME doesn't exactly mean it has to be weaker. A limit can be something like being triggered only at a certain time or place or something like that (hence Sozen's Comet). For example, if the Gaang had Sozen's Comet to rely on all year round, they could just waltz in, kick Ozai royal posterior, and walk out. No contest. However, as Sozen's Comet only come once a year(?), it gives our heroes a bit of a challenge. Sozen's Comet is still quite a powerful tool, but it has other drawbacks that keep it from being game-breaking. Am I being clear?

Okay for one, Sozin's Comet was NOT what the heroes were trying to use and if you paid that much attention to Avatar, you'd know that they were trying to kick Ozai's ass before the comet came. It was the villains who were making use of the comet to conquer the world and become more powerful that way and the heroes were trying to stop them before they do use it.

Secondly, putting that kind of a limit on the ME powers does in fact weaken it unless your going to limit the CEs along with it. For everything the CEs can do I expect the ME to also be able to do and more.

1. This paints Sonic and Co. in a negative light, though. It says to me, "we could save the world the easy way, but this way's more fun!", which quite the opposite of heroic, if I do say so myself.

2. In the Dioverse scenario, it's ultimately Knuckles who drives the plot by both being tied to the major MacGuffin and being one of the few capable of controlling it. Sonic almost becomes a side-kick in the larger scope of things, just out of his general lack of relevance to the ginormo arc.

1) What the hell does that have to do with incapacitating Knuckles or any of the things I said?

2) In the Dioverse scenario, I suggest you go from the beginning where the idea was proposed and read up on the discussion about it because no where in the idea does it have Knuckles being put as the de facto protagonist over Sonic's involvement, and he doesn't need to be around all the time in the idea. Nor does the ME need to appear all the time for that matter in the idea.

If you want to give Knuckles some good amount of backstory and have the ME around, there aren't too many avenues or opportunities to learn outside of Angel Island itself, which just puts us back where we started. You could do this and still come out with a reasonable story, but ultimately that might be better suited to a spin-off of some sort. Call it Knuckloid Prime. Make millions.

We don't need both just to explore his backstory, but the material isn't so limited to where there's very little to do with it either. This topic has gone for almost 20 whole pages by now, so there is plenty to read and get ideas on how to use the material for the character.

You look in the ceiling and see a hole the size of a ping-pong ball. I see a hole the size of Nebraska.

No, I see you exaggerating the problem way out of proportion and saying such as a reason to do away with the ME as a lazy way of solving said problem.

Also stop editing the words in my post. If you like to use swear words that's fine, but I do like using those words, and going so far as to change the words someone use just because you don't like it is flat out disrespectful.

So you're telling me I could give you the best possible answer for such a situation as ours (not saying I have), and you would reject it out of hand should it deal with shafting the ME?

If it was the best possible answer for this, it wouldn't be lazily throwing away the ME. Such an answer would give us both what we want, but shafting the ME the way you wanting is absolutely not what I want.

But yes, if your idea is just to do away with the ME like you've been insisting, I'm going to reject it right then and there. While the ME doesn't need to be involved in every plot with Knuckles (or Knuckles himself for that matter), but you don't fix a problem by throwing it away.

I'm sorry, comrade, that's not being loyal or proactive, that's just foolhardy. The sky does not turn forest green if you believe it hard enough. The truth is the truth, no matter how you look at it.

Okay now you're being ridiculous. What in the blue hell does loyalty or being proactive have anything to do with this? And what the fuck truth are you talking about? Because doing away with the ME and replacing it with the CEs for Knuckles definitely isn't anything truthful. Hell, truth has nothing to do with this either. Edited June 17, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[SIXTH-RATE SOMA]

Well here's some easy solutions to that problem:

-Don't use the thing in every plot

-Make the ME incapable of solving the problem on its own

-Make it the cause of a catastrophe

And those three are just off the top of my head. You're making the problem more complex than it really is.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

The thing with the first one there, though (and I've said this before), it gives the impression to the viewer that Sonic and Co. have a giant weapon they're not using for the sake of not using it.

As for the second, I've said before that that is still a solution, but it needs a good deal of fine tweaking, and it still keeps Knuckles cooped up on Angel Island.

The third is another problem. We could theoretically just keep pumping threats out of the ME like it's no tomorrow, but that puts us at great risk of making a formula out of SA. It's a fix that could be used a couple times to good effect, but not too often, lest you incur massive boredom.

Again, you're making this too complex.

The first idea is basically that the Master Emerald doesn't need to be used as the first weapon of resort for the heroes, because for one that's a disproportionate solution to a threat . What you're suggesting is similar to using a nuke to stop a war the moment it begins; just like it makes no sense for you to nuke your enemy's city to defeat them when you could easily have done so with soldiers, it makes no sense to use the ME on every threat that shows up when the characters could do it on their own.

On the second idea, that's partly the whole point. Knuckles doesn't need to be around for every threat that goes on. There's no fine tweaking to it, it's just that the Master Emerald - for all it's power - wasn't powerful enough to stop the threat, so they need to find other solutions to deal with it.

And on the third, you don't need to be pumping out catastrophes caused by the ME every game. It can just be an occassional thing.

We don't know that though. We're dealing with a lot of hypotheticals here. It might work, but it also might not. Draining the Chaos Emeralds has been show to be possible before, but the most that happens to the ME is getting broken again. I honestly don't know. I'll give a hesitant partial-concession.

Yes we do.

Eggman has shown that he can sap the Chaos Emeralds out of Super Sonic, it's incredibly hard to believe he wouldn't be capable of doing it to the Master Emerald when it's the same thing but larger and more powerful.

That's the bit where my analogy fails a bit, though. In X-Men, you can have any character be the center of attention for the current arc and then just switch focus come the next. In Sonic, this is a bit impossible. We could have the Dioverse scenario take place in one game and shift focus elsewhere, but ultimately he'd still be stuck on the island and we'd have gotten nowhere. If we keep it around for more than a game, then Knuckles is either just shoe-horned into the plot on thin grounds (which feels artificial) or else gets a much bigger piece of the focus indefinitely, which wouldn't too be bad if the ME hadn't become the crux of most of the conflict. House of M ended sooner or later. If we end the Dioverse scenario, Knuckles just gets put back where he started. If not, then Sonic's conflicts feel inconsequential next to this world-and-game-spanning threat.

Uh no, it isn't impossible. And I would be tempted to ring your neck to a bloody pulp across the internet each time you say "impossible" because that's just giving up too easily.

First off, Dio's idea was never meant for one game, it was meant for multiple games. Second, the whole idea behind it is so that every time Knuckles is present he isn't shoehorned; before the idea one would wonder why he isn't guarding the ME when he was present, but with the idea people will always know why he's around from then on until he completes his quest. Thirdly, even if the scenario ends, that shouldn't stop anyone from brainstorming other ideas that put more substance into why the stuff that goes on in the next game is any of his business.

This allows that Knuckles can just get off Angel Island willy-nilly with the ME and nothing bad happens. If you're okay with a beached Angel Island, then it could work, but I thought we were trying to avoid that.

I don't want Knuckles to get off Angel Island willy-nilly with the ME, I want Knuckles' involvement to have substance and justify why it is his business. And in case you get the inclination, I want that justification to be something other than a vauge "Eggman's a threat". In some cases, like say the Riders or Generations I might not care very much, but in others with a more structured and intense plot I expect that for him just like I would for every other character that gets involved.

And secondly, you want a "more strongerer and betterer" Emerald, then I'm afraid we are at an impasse. For me, it simply gives too much power with not enough drawbacks.

It's a super large Chaos Emerald that can do things the regular ones can't on their own, so that's kinda the whole point I'm making.

1) Unless Knuckles or the ME are in some way out of the picture, then Sonic and Co. have few if any reasons to not use the massive power source their buddy has.

Then keep Knuckles and/or the ME out of the picture unless the cast really needs him to help solve the problem. The don't always need Knuckles to be around to help any more than they need characters like Shadow to insist GUN do the same, so I'm hardly seeing the problem with keeping the character out until you can make a decent reason to get him involved more to help.

2) Of course it didn't say so, but again, we run the risk of just ignoring this giant background conflict because Sega says Sonic matters more. It's like having a story set in WWII that in no way whatsoever intersects with the events of WWII. It's possible, but you're going to have to jump through many hoops to get there.

So what's the problem with doing that again? Because if they giant background conflict has no point or connection to what's going on in the main plot being focused on, there's not much of a point in paying attention to it in the plot.

As to the first point, you seem to have missed my point. I said, taking your previous statement at face value, if I had managed to give the best solution to this problem (which again, I do not claim I have been doing, but this is hypothetical), then you would reject it outright should it involve shafting the ME. That's what I took issue with.

You don't need to shaft the ME. Okay? On top of that, I don't want you or anyone else to shaft it either. M'kay?

I would be more than okay for Knuckles to be involved without it so long as you can give me a solid justification as to why his involvement in the plot is any of his business and do so beyond Eggman simply being a threat in the plot. A good example would be him being around in ShTH, as there's an alien invasion going on across the globe and the world is falling to it's knees trying to fight and survive. Something like that needs nothing to question why someone like Knuckles decides to help the planet he calls home continue to live from and outside threat. I'll even let even more sillier examples slide such as him being around in Generations, because Blaze apparently traveled a whole dimension to be involved, so why not be fair and let Knuckles leave his island (but do it too much, and I'll call that out too).

But even so, I happen to want to make occasional use the of ME in this series; it can be major, it can be minor, but I want to use it. I'm even okay with Knuckles sacrificing it by shattering it because of it's massive power and make such a change to the status quo, and possibly having it bite him in the ass because someone took their free time to assemble it. It still keeps in mind that Knuckles guards it and is doing so for a much greater good despite it's value.

And to drive that home, I am not okay with people wanting to shaft it just because they see a problem with it. And should your solutions imply just that, whether you know it or I have to point it out to you and you're complete content with doing so, my answer will be "no", "nine", "não", "没有", "いいえ". Period. And you can agree to disagree with that as much as you want, but from here on out you know my answer to those kinds of solutions. And you can feel free to repeat your thoughts every time you see the opportunity, but know that I will also do the same.

As to the second, my problem is that I don't see a very good reason to redeem the ME. It's too costly a process for such a little payoff. To be honest, my own favored scenario is where the ME gets some big send-off game and then Knuckles gets to be a treasure hunter, but I was trying to give the CE thing a bit of a push seeing as how it still puts Knuckles in his iconic guardian role the fans associate him with while giving him a little leg room.

Dude, there is plenty of leg room for the character to work with for the Master Emerald. For one, the ME hasn't been made major use of which is what I've wanting this whole time. The CE have been dominating in damn near every plot since the beginning: they give someone ultimate power, seal demons, allow someone to warp space and time, power up machines, power up laser cannons that can destroy planets, awaken and defeat gods, crack open the world, resurrect the dead, and the only thing we've seen made use of the ME is that it can supercharge a robot, contained an ancient god and spirit, and stop the Chaos Emeralds.

You want to know the simplest method to this whole goddamn dilemma where the ME can give just as big of a pay off? USE THE DAMN THING MORE! It doesn't have to be around every game, but how the hell are you going to say it has very little payoff to it when it has hardly been able to make a major payoff to begin with? Considering that the ME is like the Chaos Emeralds but more powerful, you have to be incredibly shortsighted not to see that kind of a value.

What you're saying here is much like saying that a quarter is more valuable than a 5 dollar bill. (or however you want to make use of the analogy) You see how I find what you're thinking to be odd?

And for posterity's sake, when I say "Dioverse," I mean both Dio's solution + the popular add-ons formed afterward (among them your own). Dio's own base idea strikes me as a fairly solid, if somewhat unspectacular, means to end this conundrum. I was attempting to kill two birds with one stone by just sending off the ME altogether, as past SA2 it has no real purpose other than being big boss emerald guy. Just give it a send-off and give Knuckles something better to do.

Well, you're would have ended up killing someone's beloved puppy with that stone in the process. I know what Knuckles can do, and there are a lot of things he can do without the ME being around all the time, but that doesn't mean I'm gonna want the ME to go away so unfairly, if at all (but I've made my case on the exceptions).

You say the ME has had no real purpose other than being a huge emerald? Well I can emphasis easiest solution to that problem. GIVE. IT. A. PURPOSE!

Am I clear? It's really not hard to do, and it's definitely not hard to balance either.

Edited June 18, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Indigo Rush]

 

So in light of recent discussions over Knuckles as a whole, people are voicing concern over Knuckles interpretation as a character. One of the most common complaints is that Knuckles has been interpreted as a sort of "butt monkey," someone who just tags along with Sonic with no regard to his backstory.

One of the other complaints, and one that has kind of got me thinking, is Knuckles' overall demeanor and archetype. Post SA2, Knuckles has been seen as sort of... well, let's be honest, sort of an idiot. Not so much in the "I'M CONFUSED, RAWR" department, but more along the lines of Knuckles not being able to be taken seriously. 

 

Case in point, Sonic Generations:

 

 

Wasn't Knuckles supposed to be the serious lone wolf who helped Sonic only when it was most convenient to him? At least, that's how the Adventure games interpreted him. He was still heavily tied in with the Master Emerald. Now, we've discussed that to hades and back in this very topic, so let's try and sidestep the ME issue for the moment and talk specifically about Knuckles' personality and character.

 

Has Knuckles really been demoted to nothing more than a joke? Keep in mind, he's had his fair share of blunders in his debut game of all things:

 

But that doesn't make him totally incompetent...

 

...it's something that may not have changed at all, really. If we remove the necessity of the Master Emerald, what do we have to go by for Knuckles?

 

He's a treasure hunter... sometimes.

He's strong. That hasn't changed.

He's got a bit of a temper... I'm not sure if that was implied in the original game, but that's a thing now.

He's seen as an indispensable friend to Sonic... except for everything between Sonic 2006 and Sonic Lost World.

He's often found in embarrassing situations... since day 1. Either he's being duped or being at the wrong end of slapstick

He's... not taken seriously.

 

To be frank, the only games I can think of where I took him seriously were the 2 Adventure games, and even then he messed up every now and then. After Sonic Heroes he was Sonic's best buddy who liked to fight, and... uh. Well. Even in Sonic 3 & Knuckles he was more annoying than honorable, so I'm having a difficult time trying to recall a moment outside of the Adventure games where he was a valuable asset to the group.

 

So I guess the ultimate question I want to pose is...

 

Was Knuckles really that serious of a character to begin with?

 

Not so much his backstory, but when you look at his history, it's not been very consistent. Most people here agree that Knuckles has gotten the short end of the stick, but what I propose is that Knuckles has kind of always had it that way.

 

What are your thoughts?

 

EDIT: This doesn't mean that I think Knuckles is a bad character, or that I don't even like him, he's one of my favorites so I want to see him taken seriously, but I'm just curious as to what direction he's actually been heading towards since the beginning before we decide where he should go from here.

Edited October 5, 2013 by Indigo Rush

[Uraraka]

Knuckles Is this:

 He is serious , as in, he isn't into being too silly. He isn't a joker like Sonic is. He has his goal, and while easily distracted, Tries his best to keep going forwards.

   I think it would be wrong to judge Knuckles as being incompetent based on those pictures. He is , I will say, inexperienced. He probably had no idea that Eggman could electrocute him like that. and he probably wasn't expecting the sky sanctuary to fall like that either. He likes to think ahead, yet, doesn't always have the knowledge to decide what lies ahead.

   He has been demoted recently. Yes he has. And I am oh so VERY UPSET ABOUT IT! but I do like what I saw in that spoiler thread about him in Lost World. that seemed like a good interpretation of him ( I won't say what I saw though  )

  Knuckles is naive, but careful. But being careful isn't enough. you have to know things too. I am not, repeat AM NOT implying he is stupid. I think he has a good mental capacity to figure things out and I do believe he may have some books smarts ( I mean, he did take care of himself for a long time and all ) But he is unknowledgeable about the things around him in the outside world. I really don't mind them making him look naive, but making him look weak and dumb.... I HATE IT!

Edited October 5, 2013 by knucklesgirl

[Chaos Incarnate]

As much as I would like to blame Knuckles' entire character going downhill since around 06, I'm going to have to agree that Heroes was where I noticed a big shift in Knuckles' character. 

 

From Sonic 3 & K to Adventure 2, Knuckles' entire purpose as a character was to be a rival to Sonic that could be friendly and work with him if only Angel Island and/or the M.E was in danger. He was obviously easily tricked by Eggman, but he was still just as quick to get the job done as a competent, tough as nails badass. He's always had a mysterious backstory that I like being kept secret for the most part, with hints drawn to it here and there like the Echidna tribe flashbacks.

 

After Adventure 2, however, and it truly pains me to say this as Knuckles is one of my favorite characters in the franchise, but it feels like he hasn't had a reason to be involved in the plot (the only exception being Rivals 2). The first game to do this was Heroes, he's just hanging out with Sonic and CO because there has to be another person hanging with Sonic and Tails, with no mention of his duties of guarding the M.E.

 

I'm perfectly fine with trying to make Knuckles humorous, and I'm one of the few people that likes the Generations cutscene where Amy easily shoves him aside. Problem is, it seems like he's still going in this direction, as shown by the recent Spanish cutscene in Lost World shows him easily being carried off by a pack of Forrest animals. 

 

So yes, Knuckles pretty much has been reduced to the butt monkey, and is the most screwed over character in Sonic history at this point. That's fine if you're going to have Knuckles appear with Sonic and CO. more often, but you need to justify him making an appearance in the first place. It seems like he's just getting worse and worse in terms of everything, I feel like I have nowhere to look to for an awesome version of Knuckles lately. I was really excited when I heard Knuckles was going to be part of the main cast in that new Sonic Boom cartoon, but good god that design is awful, making me really pessimistic over the series.

 

On a side note, isn't it odd that a lot of the time when a Sonic character's VA is recast, they seem to undergo a personality shift(varying levels, depends on which character we're talking about.) With the Adventure 1 VA, he seemed to reflect on what was going on around him and had a keen sense of focus. Scott Dreier(my favorite) being the most well rounded voice for him IMO, nailing the hip, cool teenager that was committed to get the job done. When Dan Green took over, it seems like all Knuckles did was get angry about everything. Travis Willingham, who's basically just impersonating Dan Green, is when they noticeably took Knuckles in a more comedic direction starting with Generations.

[Diogenes]

I wouldn't call Knuckles a butt monkey (and not only because that's a terribly ugly phrase), but he's always been...a bit of a bumbler, let's say. And that's true even when he's been at his best. S3&K's already been explained. SA had him be tricked by Eggman into fighting Sonic...again. SA2 had him get throttled by Rouge and nearly crash a spaceship.

So Knuckles not being treated with the utmost respect, or stumbling over himself a bit...that's not where the problem is. That's in character. The problem is that he hasn't really been given much opportunity to redeem himself in recent games. To go back to the previously mentioned games: He's still plenty enough of a thorn in your side in S3&K, and he earns some respect for being able to put his faith in Sonic once Eggman drops the ruse, and in the Adventures he's still shown to be a capable fighter and guardian (yes, in spite of the emerald being broken twice). That's the counterbalance that makes him work as a character; sometimes he makes mistakes, and sometimes the world shits on him, but he pulls together and gets shit done when it needs to be. But when you get up to '06, he's still the butt of a few jokes...but he doesn't accomplish anything meaningful to balance it out. Likewise Generations, where his only notable scene is when he's backhanded by Amy and knocked into a tree.

I think it's worth considering context and intent, though. While there's really no excusing '06, Generations wasn't a game that gave much attention to anyone who wasn't a Sonic, Tails, or Eggman. For the kind of story they made (the quality of which is its own debate), there really wasn't time for Knuckles to do anything redemptive. A quick joke is about the most anyone else got, and Knuckles isn't the only one who had one at his expense.

[Nuggets]

I think Knuckles can be taken seriously, but generally isn't. Even at his most competent, when the Adventures took a look at him from a more serious angle, portraying him as grounded but hotheaded, he still managed to get tricked by Eggman and then one game later spill all his emerald shards onto the moon (or whatever the heck Meteor Herd was). Afterwards, Knuckles just kinda spiraled downhill, and while you can argue that he was never taken too seriously to begin with, it's hard to deny that Knuckles' credibility has slipped a bit since Heroes, and that he's more of a "butt-monkey" now than he ever was then. Although I think that may also stem from the smaller plots and having less time to develop characters in games like Generations, so they just went with quick jokes instead. 

 

I personally think the 3 seconds of Flickies carrying Knuckles in Lost World was alright though, not really anything to get worked up about.

Edited October 5, 2013 by Nuggets

[Kuzu]

I'm going to echo Dio and agree that Knuckles has always been a bit of a bumbling character, but always managed to redeem himself in the end. The problem stems less from Knuckles being treated differently and more Knuckles doesn't do anything anymore. After the Adventure series, he just ceased being important but showed up because....reasons, and whenever he did it was mainly to be the butt of a new joke.

 

If Knuckles had more chances to redeem himself than his butt monkey status wouldn't be as noticeable, but since that's all he is nowadays and nothing else it really sticks out more than it should.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

It's less if a problem with him being a bumbling character than it is him being defined by it alone. There's nothing wrong with having characters become the butt of a joke every now and then, but if that's all you make him out to be, then that's what people will mostly see.

 

Knux was put into some silly situations, made a number of serious goofs, but throughout all of that he wasn't above being put in tension or having more respect to his character. And really, he's been on an island in the sky for most of his life up until he met Sonic, so it's not hard to believe he wouldn't have decent social skills, hence why he got fooled by Eggman twice (three times if you're including SAdv2 for whatever reason). Nothing wrong with playing off of that and putting him into comedic situations, but while he's been on a floating island, he's been able to set traps to keep our speedy hero at bay, fought alongside other heroes to defeat eldritch abominations, saved the world from a colony drop intended to wipe out all life (which is probably the most blood-pumping moment he's decently been involved in), helped stop an alien invasion (for whatever it was worth), and so forth.

 

It's that good old term at play: balance, and he's not been getting a good deal of it. I love to laugh at characters put in humorous situations, but with a series that is equally heavy, if not more so, on action than comedy I'd like to see more of that along with it.

Edited October 5, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonîc