Concept Art Fridays

[Hyper-Shan]

And Buzzer to Buzzbomber.

And Emerald Hill Zone to Green Hill Zone.

Sonic 4 shamelessly copies a lot from the classics, but saying EVERYTHING is a rehash of the classics is just plain wrong.

Exactly my point. Past classic Sonic games had recycled few elements themselves & E1 had recycled more content than a sequel is meant to do as someone stated before, but E1 clearly isn't all re-hashes as the examples you gave suggests.

Edited January 26, 2012 by Hyper-Shan

[Blue Blood]

*really stupid list*

Sonic 4 shamelessly copies a lot from the classics, but saying EVERYTHING is a rehash of the classics is just plain wrong.

Yes not everything was a reshash but a fucking great load of it was, or was otherwise unimaginative and unoriginal. Especially when talking about the subject at hand. The game as a whole was one big rehash so forgive for approaching this one with a lot of caution.

Edited January 26, 2012 by Blue Blood

[Marcello]

The new Badnik is as much "re-hash" as Masher is to Chopper:

http://info.sonicret.../a6/Chopper.png

Chopper

http://info.sonicret...2/27/Masher.png

Masher

He's far less of a rehash that them.

Except for the swinging on vines.

Angel Island?

[Blacklightning]

And jumping from one card to another.

No. Stop. Just fucking stop there. Listen to yourself. You are trying to define the act of jumping from one platform to another as a gimmick unique to Sonic 4. There is literally not a single damn way you could grasp at any more straws than you are right now, and I'm honestly not sure whether it is hilarious or saddening to behold.

Hell, even the stuff you brought up that could be argued as somewhat unique to S4E1 is either a more convulted or less efficient way around doing something that can be done by existing mechanics (eg: Minecarts, where Sandopolis and Lava Reef does basically the same thing in a much more interesting and intuitive manner), or ended up doing the game a massive disservice in spite of it (eg: that fucking torch lighting puzzle from Lost Labyrinth, and anything that involves having to tilt the screen). Neither of these things can really be considered a contribution to your point in discussion of E1's few traces of "originality" when it basically amounts to "stuff that E1 did worse than the games it's based off".

Also, to add to what Marcello said:

And speeding away from a forward-moving wall while pieces of level rise and fall around you.

Hydrocity, Act 2. The end of Marble Garden arguably counts too. Edited January 26, 2012 by The Cheese

[Hyper-Shan]

He's far less of a rehash that them.

I know that, I'm just replying to the ones who appear to find the new Badnik as another re-hash (hence the quotation marks earlier) whilst also comparing to past badniks who were recycled & used in almost the same way in the next game & with hardly any difference. If I wasn't too clear on that, then my apologies then.

Edited January 26, 2012 by Hyper-Shan

[Salamander]

I think that what we hope the difference is between Episode 1 and Episode 2 will be is that Episode 2 will do what most other Sonic games do and pretend that its level tropes and gimmicks are original. Episode 1 didn't in any way try to hide how derivative it was of earlier Sonic titles, and indeed it probably wasn't made to do so; it's basically an HD remake of various classic material and I'm sure we think it was made to be so. Episode 2 just needs to look different enough and not give the game away with reference-heavy naming schemes. ...Well, it doesn't just need to do that, but in regards to the rehash allegations then that's the minimum people are looking for.

I'm surprisingly excited about Concept Art Friday now. I wonder what we should expect. Maybe one item that provides any insight (into rehash vs. non-rehash), and another that's utterly boring (a rock, perhaps).

[redhellc]

(eg: that fucking torch lighting puzzle from Lost Labyrinth, and anything that involves having to tilt the screen). Neither of these things can really be considered a contribution to your point in discussion of E1's few traces of "originality" when it basically amounts to "stuff that E1 did worse than the games it's based off".

I have to disagree with you I thought the torch was a one of the few things that was interesting in sonic 4, that's not saying much.

Of course I still wouldn't kinda use it as an example, because this was one of the changes that they did on the time the game was delayed.

Edited January 26, 2012 by redhellc

[Big Boss (legendsneverdie)]

I don't mind the new badnik sharing the name of an old one as long as it acts different to the original.

[TheDanimator]

If that really is Spikes from the originals, then that's one Hell of a design overhaul. I gues Robotnik is serious when saying that he is upgrading his very best badniks.

But I wouldn't be surprised if that's just an original Badnik with wrong name given! XP

Actually, I was gonna say...

This holds allot of truth I think.

Perhaps they are still sticking with the Idea that eggman is overhauling some of his old creations but they are like...

CRAP! How do we do this without making it feel like a rehash?

The answer... have eggman completely overhaul his badnik only making it slightly resemble the original.

I actually think this badnik IS possibly supposed to be an upgrade of the original spikes.

Personally, as long as it is different enough (which it seems to be)

I think this is a cool idea.

I can just imagine nerding out and looking at the original badniks and their overhauled Sonic 4 versions.

Of course.. I could be wrong about all of this though.

Edited January 26, 2012 by TheDanimator

[PC the Hedgehog]

Yes not everything was a reshash but a fucking great load of it was, or was otherwise unimaginative and unoriginal. Especially when talking about the subject at hand. The game as a whole was one big rehash so forgive for approaching this one with a lot of caution.

[TheDanimator]

I would appreciate your elaborating on your post, because all I basically see here is your saying "NUH-UH" to my "really stupid list" and little else.

And I don't recall ever saying that you couldn't approach the game with caution. I just get sick and tired of people playing the whole "BAWWW REHASH" card with regards to E1 and blowing it way, way out of proportion as if the game was basically a copy and paste of older games.

My my, aren't we feeling condecending today. I was actually referring to how the cards flip around if you stand on them for too long.

You're saying the torch puzzle and having to tilt the screen did the entire GAME "a massive disservice"? My word, all of those events combined make up, what, five minutes of the game, max? And whether or not you enjoyed those moments or not (heck, I thought the torch puzzle was annoying, myself) is irrelevant to the fact that they're not rehashed from past games.

Agreed.

I personally think the rehash thing is being blown WAY out of proportion.

They probably thought fans would like some of the older levels redone in the newer style.

Also, in my opinion, lost labyrinth is different enough to not even be considered a rehash.

I personally think lost labyrinth is as different from labyrinth as emerald hill is from hill top zone.

If they simply called lost labyrinth something else like "water ruins" people probbaly would be saying its the only non rehashed level in the game.

[Big Boss (legendsneverdie)]

So when do we get new concept art? It's Friday 10:15 PM in Melbourne.

[Drunk Michael Myers]

So when do we get new concept art? It's Friday 10:15 PM in Melbourne.

You will have to wait for the American west cost to at least wake up first.

And then they will have there morning coffe, read the paper, go to work, do some work, eat lunch and then...we will just have to wait.

[Marcello]

What does Melbourne have to do with anything xD

I expect it around 9-11 am in California.

[Drunk Michael Myers]

What does Melbourne have to do with anything xD

He lives there.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Michael Myers

[Marcello]

Yeah, I noticed right when I posted. I just half-glanced at his country and thought England. Then I hit the post button and it hit me. Sorry, Wearied xP

[Salamander]

If it goes up at the same time as last Friday, it should be another four or five hours or so, shouldn't it?

[Blue Blood]

Around about then. I for one am really looking forward to what we see. It should hopefully explain whether Spike is Yadrin or if it was just a random coincidence. Though that's only if they show more Badnik art.

[Blacklightning]

My my, aren't we feeling condecending today. I was actually referring to how the cards flip around if you stand on them for too long.

And that's supposed to change... what, exactly? We've literally had collapsing platforms in Sonic games since day fucking one.

You're saying the torch puzzle and having to tilt the screen did the entire GAME "a massive disservice"?

This, coming from the guy claiming everyone else was blowing things out of proportion. I was talking about such issues as a collective, not as individuals, so I'd appreciate you not twisting my argument like that.

My word, all of those events combined make up, what, five minutes of the game, max?

The torch puzzle can easily take up five minutes by itself if you're unlucky (which isn't helped any by the fact that your timing is messed up because of platforms not staying out for the same length of time), but even if it didn't, I fail to see why the exact amount of exposition should somehow justify retarded design decisions. We might as well consider adding arbitary momentum removals in midair seeing as they only last a fraction of a...

Oh, wait.

And whether or not you enjoyed those moments or not (heck, I thought the torch puzzle was annoying, myself) is irrelevant to the fact that they're not rehashed from past games.

It kinda says something about the objective quality of the non-rehashed content when actual rehashing would've been a far more viable option than it. Seriously, we've got a section with arbitarily changed controls that expects you to tilt the screen (forcing you right into a wall of spikes I might add) just to break a block on the other side? This literally doesn't make a single but of sense from any game design, level design or even just plain common sense standpoint. Why not just spindash the fucking thing out of the way?

I'm not exactly happy with rehash-mania myself, but if I had a choice between shit that's actually worked once before and shit that sounds stupid even on paper, I know which one I'd go for. It just puzzles me that you're trying to evoke an image of Sonic 4 that isn't 100% rehash (as if it even changes any implication of the fact that it's still an issue either way) by pointing out parts of the game that were just plain bad to begin with. What exactly are you trying to prove?

EDIT: Now that I think of it, it's actually kinda hilarious in hindsight to note that practically all of the arguably non-rehashed content in Sonic 4 occurs in about two acts of Lost Labyrinth and virtually nowhere else.

Edited January 27, 2012 by The Cheese

[OlenJimi]

I want to see some level concept art.

[PC the Hedgehog]

And that's supposed to change... what, exactly? We've literally had collapsing platforms in Sonic games since day fucking one.

Have we had floating cards that flip around when you stand on them too long? I'm well aware that the mechanic itself isn't original--any platformer fan knows that--but the way it was implemented into the casino settings is at least something we haven't seen before, which was my point from the outset.

This, coming from the guy claiming everyone else was blowing things out of proportion. I was talking about such issues as a collective, not as individuals, so I'd appreciate you not twisting my argument like that.

Okay, then, so what other issues in a similar vein are you referring to that did the game a "massive disservice?"

The torch puzzle can easily take up five minutes by itself if you're unlucky (which isn't helped any by the fact that your timing is messed up because of platforms not staying out for the same length of time), but even if it didn't, I fail to see why the exact amount of exposition should somehow justify retarded design decisions. We might as well consider adding arbitary momentum removals in midair seeing as they only last a fraction of a...

Oh, wait.

It kinda says something about the objective quality of the non-rehashed content when actual rehashing would've been a far more viable option than it. Seriously, we've got a section with arbitarily changed controls that expects you to tilt the screen (forcing you right into a wall of spikes I might add) just to break a block on the other side? This literally doesn't make a single but of sense from any game design, level design or even just plain common sense standpoint. Why not just spindash the fucking thing out of the way?

I'm not exactly happy with rehash-mania myself, but if I had a choice between shit that's actually worked once before and shit that sounds stupid even on paper, I know which one I'd go for. It just puzzles me that you're trying to evoke an image of Sonic 4 that isn't 100% rehash (as if it even changes any implication of the fact that it's still an issue either way) by pointing out parts of the game that were just plain bad to begin with. What exactly are you trying to prove?

I'm curious as to why you're so insistent on making this a quality issue when it the issue of originality that's being discussed. And when it comes to that, no one has been able to even slightly refute the fact that the game clearly has plenty of original content. Whether or not it's GOOD or not is purely subjective, but it's completely beside the point.

EDIT: Now that I think of it, it's actually kinda hilarious in hindsight to note that practically all of the arguably non-rehashed content in Sonic 4 occurs in about two acts of Lost Labyrinth and virtually nowhere else.

I listed plenty of other content in my post. You just chose to focus on those.

[Marcello]

Around about then. I for one am really looking forward to what we see. It should hopefully explain whether Spike is Yadrin or if it was just a random coincidence. Though that's only if they show more Badnik art.

I expect it to stay mostly the same. As in level object + new Badnik weekly. The level object could change, though.

[Blue Blood]

I want to see some level concept art.

Cause that went down so well before...

[OlenJimi]

Cause that went down so well before...

"So, Sonic 2006 didn't do well. What now?"

"We could do more games?"

"Cause that went down so well before..."

Sawnik deaded

[Barry the Nomad]

Remind me: how was concept art handled last time? I could have sworn that it wasn't a "two pieces every friday" sort of thing. It was more like SoA posting art at random times. Maybe I'm wrong... my mind is getting old.